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Rso
To respond to the questions you asked earlier.
Have you ever learned the sicha of the Rebbe on sleeping in the sukkah? I’m sure if you’re a sincere person, before making conclusions you will learn the sicha good and if you have questions ask a Lubavitcher rov to explain it to you, and only then you can make conclusions.Regarding Moshiach and arizal
I only comment on stuff that I am well versed in, I usually only mention what the Rebbe said, or stuff that well respected rebbonim say. I don’t say my personal opinion, unless well versed in the topic (at least usually). So therefore I kept out of the topic of Moshiachs, because i just don’t know enough about the subject to have an opinion about it.
I think the same should be with you, especially before putting down someone or a community, and calling the names etc. you should learn the subject really well before hand. It’s basics of ahavas Yisrael, ahavas hatorah, ahavas Hashem.
Btw I could be wrong, maybe you did learn these subjects really well, but it surely doesn’t seem like it, and I’m saying this not only to you, it’s to everyone here, including Lubavitchers.And also you keep on saying that no one outside of Lubavitche agrees with such and such.
First of all many do, second it doesn’t make a difference if they agree or not. Every community, every kries has their rabbonim and rebbis that they follow, and no one has a problem with it. We find the same in Gemorah, באתרא דרב כהנא they did what he said…… (I forgot where the Gemorah is). Everyone follows thier תלמידי חכמים, רבנים, רבים etc. whether other community’s agree or not.Rso
“I had hoped that after Shabbos I would be able to enjoy being challenged by chossid’s questions, but nothing so far. Why?”
I’m still debating if I should bechlal start, and if it’s worth the time, and besides the point, that’s not what I’m here do to, to put down people. But you never know I might change my mind soon.And Neville ChaimBerlin
I do apologise if I accused someone, the reason why it came out like that, is because I don’t always remember exactly who said what, but I will be more careful with that in the future.I responded to many “questions”, (more like your personal conclusions). At least the ones that were purely moitzi Shem rah etc.
It’s your choice to take them or not.
For some reason it seems that when some posters here realize that their tayinos on Lubavitche are not really true (for example reason to do mitzvos), they just brush them away and say that there better problems to discuss. For some reason I see that purely out of sinas Yisrael.Btw can I ask some questions? (Questions not conclusions)
“How does Lubavich explain “Ani Maamin…” HKB”H gives reward to those who obey his Mizvos, and punishes those who disregard them”?
S.char veonesh does NOT exist in Lubavich lexicon! According to the RAMBA”M, not believing any one of the 13 Principles of Faith is tantamount to kefirah CH”V!”Lubavitche believes 100% in schar veonesh, gehenim gan eden, (we learn about the different levels of them in chassidus), just we don’t believe that, that’s the ultimate way we should do a mitzvah or not do a aveirah.
We try to emphasis that we should do mitzvah because Hashem chose us to have the zchus to do Hashems rotzion, and be a shutif with Hashem, kabolas al, and ultimately make a dirah betachtoinim, and if we cs”v do a aveirah, we are going against our mitzius and reason why we are created. And we are being moired bemalchus, (in Tanya it’s explained, that even a small aveirah is like כאילו doing avodah zarah).
Now if that doesn’t get to do mitzvos then obviously you should think about schar veonesh.My magid shiur (which is one of the top maggid shiurim in Lubavitche) said befieresh, if the above reasons doesn’t get you to do mitzvos, and hold you back from doing aveiros, then you should for sure think about schar veonesh and gan eden and gehenim.
*You write….
“because he himself said that he is “Shevi’i kodesh Lashem”….”
It think you should be quiet in stuff you don’t have a clue what your talking about
Your say too much stupid comments.
Btw still waiting for you to answer my questionsIn general there are two levels of doing mitzvos, there is doing so because of קבלת עול – נעשה, and then doing so because of טעם ודעת – נשמע.
First and foremost we do Hashems rotzion, because that’s what Hashem command us to do, whether we understand the reason or not, whether it makes sense or not, we are בטול להקב”ה כעבד לאדון, whatever he says we do, with no exceptions.
Then there is נשמע understanding why Hashem command us do the mitzvos, what’s the reason for them, and what do we accomplish through doing them.
So yes 100% we so because Hashem told us do so (whatever we understand otherwise, whether we hasten Moshiachs arrival or not) but then when you understand why Hashem is commanding us do to so, we can get fully involved, with a chayus, and a geshmak, and אהבה.
We can’t just stay by the level of יראה we need to get to so also with אהבה.
The more we understand who Hashem is, why did he created yeddin, what’s his plan in the world, and what we accomplish through listening to him, the more we have a chayus in Torah and mitzvos. But that doesn’t take away the fact that we do the mitzvos Because Hashem told us so, it just adds, that not only you do it because you have קבלת עול but you also have a chayus on it.So when people say we should mitzvos because it brings Moshiach closer, is not a wrong statement, (just like saying that we rest on shabbos because that’s what Hashem did). Because that’s what gievs him a chayus to do the mitzvos, that he has the zchus to bring Hashem more in this world thought Torah a mitzvos.
Every mitzvah we do, brings a gelui in this world, which eventually will bring the ultimate gelui, which will be when the beis hamikdash will be rebuilt.
When Moshiach comes, that’s when we made the complete dirah for Hashem.
And that happens through us doing mitzvos.
And this is more Hashems sake that he wants a dirah in this world, not for shechar and aoinesh.
Moshiach is not our personal gratification, even though we will gain a lot, it’s merely just because Hashem wanted so, and we have the zchus to fullfil him request.
As long as where on golus the shechina is in golus, שכינתא בגלותא. And we have the zchus to get the shechina out of golus.If it’s not our business to understand the reason for mitzvos, why did Hashem tell us reasons for some of the mitzvos, why did the mekubolim and choikrim, be miayin in the reason for the creation of the world, gadlus Hashem, reason from mitzvos.
Again don’t get me wrong, we do mitzvahs out of קבלת עול, and that’s the first and foremost why we keep them, no matter what we accomplish, but to add and give a chayus to do them and not just do it with a dry spirit, there is a reason to know the reason behind them.
I would love to write and explain more, just impossible to type it all up. It’s pretty much Tanya and 600 page ספר מאמרים המשך תרס”ו from the fifth Lubavitcher Rebbe.
*Their
DaasYochid ☕
“Nobody said it was a stirah.”
For some reason I see from there words that their implying that’s it’s a stirah. Could be I’m wrong.
Can you explain to me what they are saying?Laskern:
Sounds good. In Tanya it explains it all derech the same way, ( just in kabola terms) that the sechar of each mitzvah, is the gelui that we bring to the world through performing a that mitzvah, שכר המצוה היא המצוה עצמה. If I remember correctly.
Which question are answering?Just want to let everyone know, that obviously we should to mitzvos because it’s Hashems rotzion.
Which means doing a mitzah leshmah, (not that I should merits to be I gan even) and learn Torah lemah (not to learn to be come a godel)
I’m asking my questions to understand how you guys come to the conclusion that Moshiach and Hashems rotzion are a stirah.
So if you can please explain it to melaskern
Chossid, to answer your question, look at the Rambam Hilchas Lulav 8,15 and the Magid Mishneh there ויעשה הטוב מצד שהוא טוב do the good for its own sake. See the Rambam Hilchas Teshuva 10th Perek. Pirkei Avos שכר מצוה מצוה the mitzva itself is its own rewards.I totally agree with you.
Just if you can explain to me what does these quotes mean? Especially שכר מצוה מצוה?samthenylic
Can you answer my questions please?profound101
“You seem to imply that we do Hashem’s ratzon in order to bring about Moshiach. However it is not so. Hashem will bring Moshiach when He sees fit. Our tachlis is to do ratzon Hashem, no shaychus to Moshiach. Even if we knew a certain act would bring moshiach, but it contravened halacha, it would be ossur to do it. out tachlis in this world is not to bring moshiach.
can I make this any clearer?”Yes please.
What does it mean “bring Moshiach”?
What’s does it mean doing Hashems rotzion? What are we accomplishing in this world by doing mitzvos?
And what is the תכלית בריאת העולם?
Why is rotzion and Moshiach a stirah?
If you answer these questions it will make your statement more clear.
Yeshivishrockstar
“Chossid – we do not do mitzvos for Moshiach. We do it becuase Hashem commanded us to.”
Yes we do it because Hashem commanded us to do them. (I never said otherwise)
Can you please explain to me why is it a stirah?
What’s Moshiach?
And what does it mean doing mitzvos because that’s Hashems rotzion?I personally know at least ten Lubavitchers that their parents not only let there kids play with litvisheh and chassidish kids, but also sent them to their schools.
I myself originally grew up in a litvishe community, the only house my parents didn’t let me go to, were the ones that my parents didn’t trust their kashrus. But the ones that were approved, I did go play with.
And I davend in their shuls, and yeshivois.Aderabeh they don’t come to my house, or to my shul.
There is no such shita in Lubavitche and we don’t mechanech our kids to hate people, or to stay away from non Lubavitchers.
Something making me think that you teach your kids to stay away from Lubavitche…..
samthenylic
K if you don’t mind let me ask you a few questions.
“Hasem’s purpose in putting us in this world, is, to quote the TANYA “La’asos lo dira b’tachtonim” , via Mizvos uma’asim tovim!”
1. Can you explain what does this quote mean?
“This means NOT working to bring the Geulah, but concentrating on limud haTora, & asiyas hamizva l’shem Hashem, WITHOUT any ulterior motives.”
2. What does working for moshiach mean?
3. What’s does mitzvos lesheim shomayem mean?
4. What’s these “ulterior motives”?“This will only MINIMIZE our dedication of doing mizvos l’shem Hashem, because we will do it for OUR OWN GRATIFICATION.”
5. Why would it minimize our dedication?
6. Since when is moshiach “our own gratfichtion”?
7. What’s going to be when moshiach comes?
8. What’s the reason for mitzvos?
9. What do we accomplish by doing mitzvos/Hashems rotzion?It’s seems in your comment that your “well versed” in these topics, and came to conclusions, so wondering if you can answer these questions.
Hope I’m not asking much.Rso:
“Chossid, as I wrote I am sick of re-explaining the same point over and over and I have committed (bli neder!) to ignore the non-answers and empty justifications to your rebbe’s sevoro about not sleeping in the sukkah. Everything I have written earlier on the topic still stands as far as I can tell, and I don’t believe anyone else in this forum who is not a lubavicher sees how you have answered my questions.”
Same here.
And great shabbos. חזק חזק ונתחזקYeshivishrockstar:
“So Chassid, noawadays, when the rebbe is no longer alive, are chassidim patur from the mitzvois because חסידים מקושרים לרבותם?”Why does the hiskashrus change because he past away? The Rebbe said many times the hiskashrus to a Rebbe is through llearning his Torah and doing his hoirois,Come on, i thought you were brought up Lubavitche you should know what the Rebbe says regarding hiskashrus.
“Further more the Rebbe says that the reason why previous Gedolim did sleep in the sukkah was because they didn;t know toras chabad. Does he mean that abaya and rava didn’t know toras chabad, or does he mean that they knew it, it was forgotten, and no the rebbe is respreading it? If the former, it seems kind of chutzpahdig to say the Rebbe knew torah that Abay and Rava did not, and if the latter, why didn’t Abaye and Rava say why that they didn’t sleep in the sukkah? (and don’t answer that they in their greatness were able to, like username tried answering previously, because the Rebbe doesn’t say that. And he should.”
The Rebbe explains it in heorah 13 in the sicha, check it up.
CORRECTION:
And we don’t make a brocha in the sukkah if it’s raining, even if we still try to eat there@Avram in MD and everyone else.
“The people from Dzhikov aren’t here on the CR trying to convert the nebach non-Dzhikovians. If they were, you bet they’d be asked about it.”
I’m not here to convince you my shitos, (you don’t have to agree) I’m here to stick up for Lubavitche and the Rebbe, when people are moitzi Shem rah, and call us all different types of names, without any real proof etc. I do intend to stick up against fake news. All I’m asking is that if you have a question about lubavitche, you can ask it, just don’t come to conclusions based on rumors.
I rest my caseAnd don’t make a brocha in the sukkah if it’s raining, even if we still try to eat there
Neville ChaimBerlin
“What people are disputing is your habit of speaking of a heter as though it’s a chumrah to imply that those keeping the mitzvah are doing a bad thing.”It’s not a chumrah, it’s just reason/justificationfor the letter and an explanation why the rabbeim were makil in sleeping while they were extremely machmir in everything else
Rso:
As I wrote a number of times, and as Syag wrote so clearly in a post just before yours, I have no problem with the minhag, and that is why I’d not fussed with what did or did not happen in Dzikov. I have a problem ONLY with the attempt at rationalization that simply does not hold water.
You didn’t answer the question.I’m confused, are you switching to our side on the sleeping in the Sukkah issue now? I’ve read your question several times, and it seems like you’re making exactly our point. By the way, non-Chabad Chassidim don’t eat in the Sukkah on Shmini Atzeres. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong, just “fact-checking.”
Read again.
I’m asking a question, basically trying to prove that the rabbeim weren’t looking for hetterim because we see they wore makpid on everything else.@Neville ChaimBerlin
“The Rema says the exact opposite of what your claiming he does in siman 639. ”Your right, I gave the wrong example, I meant if it’s cold, ie. tzar
I hope you understand now.
I explained myself again in the above post.DaasYochid ☕
“1) If someone will sleep, it’s a chiyuv to do so in the sukkah.
The Lubavicher “minhag” is to sleep outside of the sukkah.”Exactly. (Unless he has a hetter). And it was the Ramas minhag too.
You missed my point.
What I’m trying to bring out (from the Gemorah) is, that by not sleeping in the sukkah, is not being mevatel a deorysa, because he fulfilled the mitzvah of תשבו by eating in the sukkah. Sleeping is only a separate פרט in the תשבו. Therefore the chachomim weren’t being mevatel a deorysa, by not sleeping. But yes if you are going to sleep there is a chiyuv to do so if you don’t have a hetter.I will bring out the point with an example regarding the first night.
If it’s raining or it’s very cold, you still have a chiyuv (deorysa) to eat (at least) a kezayes in the sukkah, because if not, you will be mevatel a deorysa. But do you have to sleep in the sukkah that first night in the rain? I don’t think so (I’m not 100%) Because you wore already mekayem the chiyuyof תשבו by eating there.So we see from here, that not sleeping is not being mevatel a deorysa, the only thing that there is, is a chiyuv, if you don’t have a hetter.
“2) The R’ma is specifically talking about when/where it’s cold, or married men.
Ie. TzarLubavicher bochurim sleep in the house even when it’s nice outside.”
With a hetter,
Just there is room for debate what’s considered tzar. But it’s not being mevatel a deorysa.Rso:
““Retroactive heter”?! There is no retroactive heter if it’s raining and the rain ruins your food or disturbs your sleep. It is a halocho paskened openly by ALL poskim. The only “retroactive heter” is not sleeping in a sukkah when the weather and other physical considerations do not disturb, and that is where the Rema says that it appears to him that the reason people don’t sleep in a sukkah is…
That is a “retroactive heter”.”Ok just instead of “raining” it’s very cold and you can’t sleep properly.
My point is, why are you ok (like you said) with just relying on a minheg without a reason for it, If we see from the Rama that he doesn’t leave his minheg just like that, rather he justifies it with a reasoning why you can be maikul.The only thing I could understand from you is, why is the reasoning valid.
but is not a problem to justifying it.
That’s all what I was trying to say. I just wasn’t clear.“Because they wouldn’t have gone home to sleep if there was Simchas Beis Hasho’eiva any other time of the year either. That is the rule of תשבו געין תדורו. For the same reason someone who is traveling is not obligated to sleep in a sukkah.”
See what I wrote earlier to dassyochid.
Rso
“Did he really say that?! So he just ignores Rav Shulchon Oruch 5639 se’ifim 4 and 8?!
How far are you people allowed to distort things in order to prove that you are right?”
What did he ignore?
I hope you can understand now, after I explained it again.“And if you sleep outside a sukkah the shiur of sleeping, which is even the smallest amount, you are mevatel the same mitzvas asei.”
Wondering, are you being mevatel a deorysa the first night by not sleeping in the sukkah if there is tzar of rain?
This is what I see from the shulchon aruchירדו גשמים הרי זה נכנס לתוך הבית מאימתי מותר לפנות משירדו לתוך הסוכה טפות שאם יפלו לתוך התבשיל יפסל אפילו תבשיל של פול: הגה ואפי’ אין תבשיל לפניו [סמ”ג והגהות אשירי] ומי שאינו בקי בזה השיעור ישער אם ירדו כל כך גשמים לבית אם היה יוצא יצא מסוכתו ג”כ [א”ז והגהת אשירי פרק הישן ומרדכי פ”ב מיימוני פ”ו ומהרי”ל]
וכל זה דוקא בשאר ימים או לילות של סוכות אבל לילה הראשונה צריך לאכול כזית בסוכה אף אם גשמים יורדין [טור ור”ן והרא”ש] ויקדש בסוכה [כדי] שיאמר זמן על הסוכה [ת”ה סימן צ”ה]:I only see you have a chiyuv to eat not sleep. Because davkeah non eating in the sukkah is being mevatel a deorysa not sleeping.
Let me know if I’m wrong in this example.
“Your rebbe’s justification does not”
His justification for himself or for the chassidim?
“Your rebbe’s justification does not, and it would have been better had he left it as a minhag without empty rationalizations.”
Thanks for giving the Rebbe advise. It’s a pity you weren’t there to give him advise 😉
Again my point is that by not sleeping in the sukkah, it’s not being mevatel a deorysa. Now regarding the chiyuv if you are going to sleep, the hetter is tzar.
The only question is what do we consider tzar, you don’t have to agree with the Rebbe if you don’t want to, it is a chidush.But as a chossid you can realize what the tzar is, as a chossid to a Rebbe when a Rebbe is having pain or tzar in something, the chossid also does or he is feeling bad why isn’t it bothering me, when something is bothering the Rebbe.
But you don’t have to agree. I’m not here to convince you.
Yeshivishrockstar
“And in other places he says Kaviyachol. This is not meant to be taken literally, and is kefira if it is. We do not have GOD in us, we have GODLINESS. Big difference – and is the difference between yiddishkeit and kefira. A mistake in this is a mistake in yichud Hashem!!!!”
Are saying that what what the Bal hatanya says in Tanya that נפש בשנית בישראל היא חלק אלקה ממעל משש is kefirah and making a mistake in yechud Hashem?
Just need some clarification.Rso let me ask you a simple question.
If the rabbeim (and chassidim) wore makpid ad kedei chach, to not even drink a little sip of water outside the sukkah even if it raining, and even on shmini atzeres, why wouldn’t they be makpid on sleeping in the sukkah?
Do you have any explanation or just going to call everything fiction, and being brainwashed?
(Btw it seems like you are calling even the Rebbe brainwashed cv”s, I find it t pretty surprising.)@Neville ChaimBerlin
“I will say though that what Chossid is implying about shaving being a more extreme heter than being mevatil the mitzvah of sleeping in the Sukkah is completely absurd. The heter of not sleeping in the Sukkah is actually explicitly cited as a retroactive heter (a psak made in response to masses being meikel with no heter) in the S”A. You have no proof that bochrim being clean shaven for bal gaavah reasons is a retroactive heter. We don’t posken, like Chabad I believe does, that there’s a problem of lo yilbash in shaving the face, so it’s not a kulah by us. Sleeping in the Sukkah, on the other hand, all hold is a d’oraysa.”When it’s raining outside to you eat and sleep in the sukkah or you go inside? I don’t know, but guessing that you go inside and rely on the retroactive hetter, even though the Rama says we should be machmir.
I think you should learn some shulchon aruch, gemorah, and the sicha, before we come to conclusions.
“The reason it’s getting so much discussion here and because it is quite possibly the only example of a group claiming that being mevatel a mitvah d’oraysa is a chumrah.”
The first the question is, are we bieng מקיים a מצוה through sleeping in the sukkah or just an an eisur not to sleep in the sukkah?
(See צפנת פענח on the רמב”ם ה’ סוכה פ”ו ה”ב.)And If it’s a chiyuv deoreisa to sleep in the sukkah then how can do we explain this Gemorah?
סוכה דף נ”ג עמ’ א’,
תניא אמר ר’ יהושע בן חנניה כשהיינו שמחים שמחת בית השואבה לא ראינו שינה בעינינו כיצד שעה ראשונה תמיד של שחר משם לתפלה משם לקרבן מוסף משם לתפלת המוספין משם לבית המדרש משם לאכילה ושתיה משם לתפלת המנחה משם לתמיד של בין הערבים מכאן ואילך לשמחת בית השואבה.
(@Rso btw from the המשך הגמרא you see your question you asked on me.)If It’s a chiyuv to sleep in the sukkah then they wore furced to go to sleep? ( Which means they would have to leave the ezorah and go to sleep in the sukkah חוץ לעזרה). Why didn’t they?
From this Gemorah the Rebbe brings a rayeh that sleeping is a פרט which is nichlal in the mitzvah תשבו כעין תדורו not a separate inyen, so the chachomim wore מקיים the mitzvah of תשבו כעין תדורו by eating and drinking in the sukkah , even without sleeping, because that’s the real chiyuv deoreisa of תשבו כעין תדורו, so my them not sleeping wasn’t being mevatel a mitzvah deorysa. So even if someone doesn’t sleep in the sukkah (or sleeps with a heter) he was מקיים מצות ישיבת סוכה בשלימות just like the תנאים.
(Btw from here we can answer why we don’t make a brocha on sleeping in the sukkah, because it’s nichlal in the תשבו כעין תדורו of eating.)With this the Rebbe explains his question how is it possible that a reason of tzar according to penimius hatorah be bestirah to niglah detorah.
So from all the above, we see that sleeping in the sukkah is not an mitzvah deorysa rather if you’re going to sleep you should do so in the sukkah because תשבו כעין תדורו. But you’re מקיים מצות ישיבת סוכה בשלימות even without sleeping.
And we see from the Rama that where he came from, אשכנזים that they wore not נוהג so sleep in the sukkah, only the medakdekim wore, and he writes in the end you should be machmir if you can (even after the explanations of tzar).
רמ”א סימן תרל”ט סעיף ב’
הגה: ומה שנוהגין להקל עכשיו בשינה שאין ישנים בסוכה רק המדקדקין במצות יש אומרים משום צינה דיש צער לישן במקומות הקרים [מרדכי פ’ הישן] ולי נראה משום דמצות סוכה איש וביתו איש ואשתו כדרך שהוא דר כל השנה ובמקום שלא יכול לישן עם אשתו שאין לו סוכה מיוחדת פטור וטוב להחמיר ולהיות שם עם אשתו כמו שהוא דר כל השנה אם אפשר להיות לו סוכה מיוחדת:
So we see from here it’s a question of chumrah to sleep in the sukkah. Whether you should be makpid or not to be machmir, even though you have reasons to be exempt.
(And btw to those tayning that I think rso “if is a minheg that I will accept it, but it’s totally wrong to justify it”, we see from the Rama himself that he justifies a minheg that he had. So I don’t get why people are having a problem with the Rebbe justifying a minheg, Aderabeh the Rama doesn’t seem to accept to just like that, rather finds away to justify it.)
The Rebbes asks even we say it’s just a chumrah why wore the rabbeim not makpid in it, we see that the rabbeim wore makpid not to even drink water out of the sukkah, and even on shmini atzres, and even if it’s raining, so why wore they not makid to sleep in the sukkah?
So the explanation is, ווי קען מען שלאפן אין מקיפים דבינה? How is it possible to sleep when there is such crazy oirios in the sukkah, which is a geder of tzar. the way I understand the explanation is, that they couldn’t overcome the tzar of sleeping in the sukkah because it’s an inyen ruchni but tzar of an inyen gashmi it is possible to overcome, so that’s why they wore makpid in sukkah even if they had tzar gashmi like rain….. but not tzar ruchni.So it’s not justifying being mevatel a mitzvah deorysa. Rather a chumrah.
About the comparison to beards, it’s a least the same category as sukkah (definitely not worse) but I still didn’t go through the sugya of shaving well so i will go through it soon to see the opinions and what exactly is the heter. Or if you can explain it to me it will be awesome.
And btw from the safer הדרת פנים זקן you can see that many gedoilim say to wear a beard, (I think even bochurim) check it up and for the names.
(next time I get ahold of the safer I will try bring the names).Rso: it’s not an amazing rayeh like I mentioned. I’m just trying to bring out a point that halacha paskins according to the norm, how much people work and how the tevah of the world works.
“Sorry but that’s irrelevant. The Rambam is talking about physically seeing something. I don’t yet have ruach hakodesh but I don’t think it means physically seeing something.
And as far as the norm goes, the Rambam writes that we don’t say “perhaps” his eyesight is better than anyone else’s.”Again that’s exactly my point, תורה על הרוב מדבר” we paskin according to tevah, how most people are, and that is, that people only see with there eyes, not ruach hakodesh. Therefore if someone has ruach hakodesh even if he could see the situation it’s not considered עדות because we paskin according to the norm, and that is seeing with your physicalize. But even if the that’s the halacha it doesn’t take away from the fact that some tzdikim have ruach hakodesh, and can see stuff which a regular person can’t see.
So the same with not sleeping for more then 3 days, we paskin according to the tavah, and that is that people can’t stay up for more then three days, but it doesn’t take away the fact that tzdikim can do stuff even if Al pi tevah it’s impossible.But on the other hand, it’s very possible the maskirim wore talking about that the Rebbe didn’t go to sleep in bed, but possible he might of fell asleep in his chair, because I don’t think they would know that.
(I will try to find out)“But if he could prove that he can say the Sanhedrin won’t kill him.”
Where do you know this from, I haven’t seen anyone say this, and it doesn’t say that in the rambam, it just says we don’t assume so.
But either way it’s doesn’t change the point.“I want to point out how far you are brainwashed in your beliefs.”
Btw “brainwashed” is relative.
But so nice of you to call me that.“Do you see what you are doing? The MAZKIRIM said something and you just have to believe it because if you don’t, and you accept that the halachah of the Rambam applies to your rebbe as well – even though NO ONE is claiming that there is anything wrong with it applying to your rebbe – you feel you are doubting your rebbe.”
I’m not forced to accept what the maskirim say, I just don’t think the rambam is a reyah farkert.
I have no problem if you tell me that the maskirim say otherwise, I’m totally fine with that, and possibly change my opinion, I’m just telling you what I was told.“From this Rambam it is clear that keeping the 7 mitzvos is worthless without being mekabel.”
So let me ask you a few questions. Before I bother to give an explanation.
1. Nowadays when beis din can’t kill a yid for not doing a mitzvah, does that mean that now mitzvahs are worthless?
You can say your same statement regarding Jews, “from the fact that when a yid didn’t do a mitzvah he was killed is a rayeh that it’s worthless?
The same why they have a chiyuv to be mekabel we have a chiyuv to keep our mitzvahs. No?2. Why do they have a chiyuv to keep mitzvos isn’t Torah and mitzvos only for yeddin? תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה קהלת יעקב not to the goyim?
@🍫Syag Lchochma
I looked for those online pictures you mentioned and there is no question it is not a sheital. These pictures are old, none are recent, but they are definitely her hair.
Doesn’t seem clear to me that it wasn’t a sheitul. Just because she wears a hat doesn’t mean that she wasn’t wearing a sheitul, like the minheg is by some, to wear a double covering.
“So now I’m confused… neither of your answers state that she did in fact cover her hair. Does that mean she didn’t? Or that you don’t know? And what do you mean that hardly anyone saw her? Wasn’t their house open with constant streams of people as is the case with Gedolim, great rabbeim and people who live for the kehilla? Didn’t they have hundreds of shabbos guests? Didn’t the females who where desperate for Brachos and chizuk find a place at her door?”
Seems like you don’t know anything about lubavitche and the Rebbe. Don’t blame you.
What I’m saying is that, I don’t know 100% that she did wear a sheitul, because I haven’t spoken to people that took care of the house or the people that spened time with her. But I will be pretty surprised if she didn’t, because when a chosen and kalah used to asked the Rebbe to be mesader kidushin at their chasunah, the Rebbe gave two tenoyim, 1. The chosen has to have a beard (not to touch his beard). And the kalah will wear a sheitul.
So I will be surprised if he didn’t have the rebbitzin where a sheitul. And especially how tzunah the rebbitzin was. But again I don’t know for sure. Just my point is that you can’t say outrageous facts without valid proofs. Not this “online evidence” thing.@DaasYochid ☕
“I’ve seen pictures. Including on chabad . org.”Doesn’t seem to me that it’s her hair.
“Sure, because he knew, first hand, that wearing a different kind of covering often leaves the hair partially uncovered. In the famous picture of her, which is on the official Chabad website, she’s not wearing a sheitel. Defending her by saying, “Do you know how much the Rebbe spoke about women waering shietuls?” is really odd when she clearly didn’t (always) wear one.
And btw, I don’t only know this from the internet, but that’s the only evidence I can show you.”Again it doesn’t seem from any of the pictures, but from where else to you know this from?
@🍫Syag Lchochma
“This seems to have been brought by CS and chossid as “proofs” of the rebbes omniscience, so it makes me wonder if you/they are aware that this is something that we find across many many gedolim and tzaddikim of past and present.”I fully aware.
Just wondering why people like to deny the fact that the Rebbe made miracles and have ruach hakodesh. When you have thousands of people giving testimony that It happened to them personally.Btw there was stories that Rebbes sent people to the Rebbe to get brochois.
For example did anyone see the video that went around 2 months ago of Rabbi Y Y Jacobson saying a story about someone going to the satmer Rebbe for a brocha and the satmer Rebbe said that for big problems I send them to the Lubavitcher Rebbe and that’s why he wrote a letter to the Rebbe
He said it without names, but it happened to be with a non Lubavitcher relative of mine.
Did anyone come across it? I know it was also going around the between the non Lubavitchers.@Neville ChaimBerlin
“For the point about retroactively justifying minhagim, yeah I kind of have to give you that. You brought out examples from Chassidish minhagim, but everyone has this kind of thing. Eg. the fact that Litvish yeshivas don’t have mikvahs b’shittah, the fact that litvish bochrim are clean-shaven b’shittah, the fact that litvish bochrim could go years without saying korbanos b’shittah, etc.”
I personally find it to be a little different.
By the “litvaks” it was finding heteirim for the yeddin that wore nechsal it in certain stuff, for example clean shaving beard, (whether you personally consider it as chumrah, or a plain eisur). Cuz people were copping the goyim, or just made fun of my having a beard, or couldn’t get a job, like it was in the early 1900s in America.
On the other hand regarding not sleeping in a sukkah, this minhag is based on a concept in kabola that their is high oirios shining on the sukkah, מקיפים דבינה, so rabbeim couldn’t fall asleep, or had tzar in the sukkah.Rebbe still couldn’t understand how is it possible that kabola and niglah clash, like it states in chassidus that it’s one Torah so how could it be bestirah. And what’s the heter for the chassidim which don’t feel these oirios.
So that’s how the Rebbe ties it in with tzar.
If I’m not mistaken the Rebbe also asks, that it doesn’t make sense it’s a kulah, because we see that the rebbiem wore makpit to not even drink a little sip water outside the sukkah, even on shmini etzeres.
So how come they didn’t sleep in the sukkah?.I didn’t learn the sicha recently but this is what I think personally off hand.
We still don’t quite see eye to eye on that. The title Nossi Hador implies more than tzadik hador or gadol hador. It is something akin to what Moshe Rabbeinu was, and applying that title to someone nowadays while meaning the same as tzadik hador is “cheating”.
Your right by saying “It is something akin to what Moshe Rabbeinu was”.
Which is exactly what it’s says in these two quotes brought before, that in EVERY generation (no matter how resent,) there is someone that has a nitzutz moishe atzmoi inside of him
וְאִתְפַּשְּׁטוּתָא דְּמֹשֶׁה בְּכָל דָּרָא וְדָרָא, כִּי מֹשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ מִתְלַבֵּשׁ בְּכָל דּוֹר וָדוֹר בַּצַּדִּיק הָאֲמִתִּי שֶׁבַּדּוֹר.
And
והנה הצדיק שיש בו ניצוץ משה, הוא המנהיג את הדור וכל החכמים שבדורו טפלים לו, כי הם ענפים שלו
דגדול הדור נקרא כן שהוא ניצוץ משה רבינו ע”ה עצמו המתגלגל בכל דור(You stated before it could be more then one, but either way the musig of a “Moshe rabbeinu” which is the manhig of that dor exist in every generation.)
Are you upset that the Rebbe calls it nossi hador, or that he referred to the friediker Rebbe as nossi hador? Because it doesn’t seem to be made up, or “cheating”.
“There are many tzaddikim over all the generations about who I believe were way above ordinary, but I do not believe that any of them went 72 hours without any sleep at all because if it’s the halachah it applies to every Yid. That’s what I meant when I said that your rebbe claimed to believe in the primary of halachah.”
If you believe that tzadikim have Ruach hakodesh, and saw stuff which other people didn’t, how do you explain this rambam?
שְׁנַּיִם שֶׁהֵעִידוּ וְאָמְרוּ בְּמִזְרַח הַבִּירָה הָרַג זֶה אֶת הַנֶּפֶשׁ בְּשָׁעָה פְּלוֹנִית וּבָאוּ שְׁנַיִם וְאָמְרוּ לָהֶן בְּמַעֲרַב הַבִּירָה הַזֹּאת הֱיִיתֶם עִמָּנוּ בָּעֵת הַזֹּאת. אִם יָכוֹל הָעוֹמֵד בְּמַעֲרָב לִרְאוֹת מַה שֶּׁבַּמִּזְרָח אֵינָן זוֹמְמִין. וְאִם אֵינוֹ יָכוֹל לִרְאוֹת הֲרֵי אֵלּוּ זוֹמְמִין וְאֵין אוֹמְרִין שֶׁמָּא מְאוֹר עֵינֵיהֶם שֶׁל רִאשׁוֹנִים רַב וְרוֹאִין מֵרָחוֹק יֶתֶר מִכָּל אָדָם.:
Even if they can “see” or know what’s going on במזרח while they are standing במערב (which according to norm you can’t see it) they still will be considered עדים זוממים, because we go according to norm, but that doesn’t take away the fact, that they had ruach hakodesh, and saw stuff which regular people didn’t see.
Halacha goes according to nature, some tzdikim wore a little bit higher then nature.(This might not be an amazing rayeh but I’m sure you get the point, that Torah paskins according to the norm.)
So the same is with not sleeping.
“Chossid: “Where do you get this “unless” from?”
I get it from the Rambam where it is quite clear that even if a goy keeps 7 mitzvos he is doing nothing unless he is mekabel in front of three chaveirim. ”It’s quite clear it’s only to be considered a גר תושב.
So its not worth nothing.Enough with the moitzi Shem rah.
If you’re interested in getting true info about Lubavitche and finding out the facts, you know very well it’s not from this online “evidence” thing that you should be getting the truth. from.🍫Syag Lchochma
“Chossid- none of us are denying anything from our own personal shittos. That’s the point.”
Huh?
Please explain.Dassyochid
“There’s online evidence that she didn’t cover her hair k’halacha, and I’ve heard that she wore pants.”
What’s Online evidence in first place? Just because someone rights something online all of a sudden it comes evidence?
Is this where you get your facts from?
Do you know how much the Rebbe spoke about women waering shietuls? I think you should ask the caretakers of the Rebbes house how she acted before you start opening your mouth.
Hardly anyone saw her, she was hardly seen in the public that’s how tzunah she was. If someone ever saw the rebbitzin it was considered a big thing, because most people are see her. So you have to ask the people around before you start assuming things.
Am I asking too much?
Sorry for my tone.I DID NOT SAY that there is something wrong with saying that someone is the greatest tzaddik of his generation or the gadol hador (although I don’t know who is really qualified to make such a statement). IT IS SPECIFICALLY THE CONCEPT OF “NOSSI HADOR” THAT I OBJECT TO, and none of the mekoros quoted cite that concept. Is that clear now?
I guess where just miss understanding each other.
Now it seems that you agree with the CONCEPT of nossi hador, that there is someone that is the tzadik of the generation, but you don’t agree with the NAME nossi hador, instead you call it “godel hador” or “tzadik the greatest tzadik of his generation”
Ok fine no problem, where just arguing how to name call it.
So let’s get this straight, the Rebbe didn’t make up the CONCEPT of nossi hador, (because the mekoirios do speak about the CONCEPT), rather applied the NAME nossi hador which is brought in Torah (just not recently). And the name is which you don’t like. Ok I have no problem with that.Btw you don’t have to agree that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the (concept of) nossi hador, it’s my personal opinion as a Lubavitcher.
Can we agree on this? Or I’m still getting something wrong?
Now regarding the rambam, that you can’t go without sleep for more then three days.
(Finally got your point)
Good question. I see what your asking.
My personal opinion is that the Rebbe wasn’t an ordinary person, (not cs”v G-d, has people like accused us for) What I mean by that is, he was able to pass over some rules of teva, these are facts, you can ask anyone that knows/had personal story’s with the Rebbe, you can ask doctors that took care of him, especially when the Rebbe had a heart attack in lamid ches, one of the Doctors wore Dr Weiss (I think from Chicago, don’t know if he’s still alive today.) You can check my encounter with the Rebbe, by Jem. I think he was interviewed. If you want I can type up stories, but I just think you are going deny everything I say, so I suggest you just check up and do the research yourself. Before you make an opinion about it. So maybe we was able to stay up for longer, and the rambam was taking about must people, (and I think the halacha would be if hypothetically the Rebbe would take such a Sheva, he would get malkus, because halacha goes according to the norm. But he didn’t).
my personal opinion.but in the past you say straight out that he didn’t respect halacha.”
When did I say that?I will have to check up a few pages ago, but i could be wrong that it was you that said it.
Chossid: ” after claiming that “most gedoilim don’t hold of the Rebbe””
Did I really say that? I don’t remember saying it. What I think I remember saying is that most of the chareidi world does not hold of the rebbe, as virtually none of the litvishe/yeshivishe world hold of your rebbe, and MANY right-wing chassidim don’t either.Sorry that’s what I meant by “gedolim”.
I hope you still got the point.“There are a number of valid reasons not to mention names of people who have the views that I quote, all of them true in different circumstances……..”
1. And 2. Sounds just excuses.
3. First no Lubavitcher will be “pushed over the line” because of this non sense. Second if you really concerned of that why do you speak openly about it, especially if YOU hold of those people. and third, although I can tell you, it won’t push over a Lubavitcher, it definitely won’t make thousands of people that are being mekurev to Lubavitche (frum and non frum yet), think twice. And if they really hold it’s a borderline to kefirah Cs”v, (which it’s not), don’t you think it’s chiyuv to say there opinion publicly??? So no one should be nichshel? So I don’t think they really hold like that, or they don’t care, or your just making up excuses. Did you even ask them if that is the reason, or came up with this excuse yourself?
4. for some reason the lubavitchers that have non Lubavitche relatives don’t seem to have that problem.
5. Same as 4.And btw I know a handful of chassidish and litvaks that learn chassidus chabad and go to the ohel in secret . . So leshitascha I don’t think people are afraid to tell them it’s wrung.
Regarding Sheva mitzvos
Now I get what your saying with regard to arvus, you mean kol Yisrael arievim zeh lozeh. Got it now.There is a chiyuv of arvus to get Yidden to keep the 613 mitzvos. There is NO arvus when it comes to goyim! I other words, paraphrasing what you wrote, the same Oibershter who told us to get Yidden to keep 613 mitzvos DID NOT tell us to get goyim to keep their 7 mitzvos unless we can get them to be mekabel to do so in front of three Jewish chaveirim. If a ben Noach keeps 7 mitzvos but is not mekabel to keep them in front of three chaveirim, he is still chayav misa. Furthermore, he has to be mekabel to keep them because they are what Hashem told Moshe that they are what the original Bnei Noach kept.
Where do you get this “unless” from? Yes it’s true in order form them to be considered a “ger toishov” and be part of “chasidei umois haoilom” they have to megabel them in front of three chaveirim, but doesn’t mean they don’t have a mitzvah to keep their mitzvos. Whether you want to consider it a chiyuv or not, Hashem wants them to keep their mitzvos, so that Hashems rotzion, so it makes sense that you should tell them about it. If you care about Hashem rotzion.
And yes we tell them that “the G-d commanded you to don’t these comments.“We have no arvus for goyim therefore means that we are not responsible for their actions, and whether they keep their mitzvos or not does not affect us either for the good or the bad.”
It’s not about affecting us, it’s about affecting Hashem. And btw it does affect us physically, like the Rebbe said, that you if they knew there’s a God in the world and looking upon you, they wouldn’t be any murder or steal from anyone etc. For that reason the Rebbe instituted a moment of silence in schools, that there’s a time in the day where they focus and think about Hashem.
“certainly telling a ben Noach not to eat eiver min hachai because it’s cruel to animals is plain wrong.”
True. Even though it might be the reason, but you should tell them that Hashem told you to do it, and that is what the Rebbe wanted and spoke about in Farbrengens, for example regarding a moment of silence, same topic as Sheva mitzvos
“Whoa! First, I don’t believe he had ruach haKodesh, or did miracles, so you’re proving me wrong by saying something I don’t believe.”
Interesting how is it’s possible to say that, after thousands of people had personal encounters and stories of miracles and Ruach hakodesh that happened to them personally???? Are you denying all that עדות? I guess your just clueless, if you only knew you wouldn’t say that.“So you see that not holding of the latter does not necessarily mean you don’t hold of the former.”
The names I quoted wore in support of regular Lubavitchers, and the Rebbe himself. Like rabbeim i have mentioned, like Rabbi Wolfsin from Boro park.Either way lishitasch why don’t you learn chabad chassidus at least Tanya.
” I would expect that you don’t hold too highly of Rav Shach, and I easily accept that. You are therefore justified in coming to logical conclusions about his views and actions even though you are not a tzaddik or a gadol.”
First I never said anything about him .
Second I don’t have a PERSONAL opinion about him, I only have what the Rebbe said about him. (And maybe some others). Even though Lubavitche didn’t hold of him I surely acknowledge the fact that he knows more Torah then me, So I won’t argue with him in that (at least in niglah;)). Not like you who simply denies facts according to your personal shita (at least till you tell me names).The truth is I really would want to end this conversation, I’m wasting too much time, and it’s addicting.
I hope i didn’t miss understand you this time so I can finish with it.@chabadshlucha
“Listen chossid unlike you who are still in the walls of Yeshiva, im in the Olam hazeh hagashmi, where I need to make life altering decisions many times and really do need urgent anders on a regular basis. Maybe it is a bit of a chutzpa of me, but I do try to make it a two way Street and devote myself fully to the Rebbe’s shlichus and be the Rebbe’s chossid as much as I can. So if it works, then the Rebbe is going along with it and I couldn’t be happier.”I’m sorry but the Rebbe always said askir Al hatzion, I understand you’re on shlichus but they are many people on shlichus, includiny parents, and they don’t write to igros, if they have a question or in doubt they write to the ohel, or ask a asay lecho rav, not to a made up answer machine. It’s your right it’s a chutzpah.
“Well in that case you actually build my case. Thanks. The Rebbe would come back from the ohel many times saying the Frierdiker Rebbe said this.
Because he hade some connection with the frierdekir Rebbe, or Ruach hakodesh, and got an answer.He didn’t wait around when he had urgent questions till the day the Frierdiker Rebbe would find a way to get back to him. ”
Oh yes he did, תש”י he didn’t except to be Rebbe right away, (and not only that he “threatened” chassidim which asked him to be Rebbe and he will run away if they continue) because the friediker Rebbe didn’t tell him to.
And guess what? Neither did the chassidim
Yes they did.
“That’s why they brushed aside the Rebbe’s protests that they could write the Frierdiker Rebbe and he’ll find a way and insisted on making the Rebbe our Rebbe”
Don’t get what you’re saying.
“Is it my fault I don’t have ruach hakodesh and can’t ask the Rebbe directly.”
Nope it’s not, but guess what we are in golus, and it’s not easy.“If you wanna know something my personal svara is that the Rebbe was trying to accomplish the avoda b koach atzmo we are forced into now, way back in tof shin yud. The chassidim managed to push it off for another 42 years but here we go again. And this time there’s no new Rebbe till moshiach. We’re the final generation.”
?????
“No. My objection is, as I have written too many times already, that there the concept of Nossi Hador is not applicable to anyone alive or who was alive for the last thousands (I wrote hundreds in the past, but I think it’s in the thousands) of years. ”
From the mekoirios brought before its says that the concept of nossi hador is in every generation (no matter how resent)…… And you say “concept of Nossi Hador is not applicable to anyone alive or who was alive for the last thousands…of years”. Very interesting.
Furthermore, the mekoros that you quoted above that there is ONE tzaddik with a nitzotz are from a very few seforim, with the Zohar saying in at least one place (as someone pointed out in Tikunnim, I believe) that it is 600,000 neshamos in each dor.
I can explain if you wish (don’t think it will help)
“Yes, I do have names, and ask chassidim of many other rebbes and they may be willing to tell you names. Unlike you and others, however, I don’t believe in citing names in a public forum when I am sure the people whose names I would cite would not want to be cited! So just because I don’t cite names it doesn’t mean I don’t have the names.”
“No. I won’t supply names of people who would not want to be mentioned. I understand that you may therefore decide not to believe me, but I know that I am telling the truth.”When people do stuff in public, and wore not embarrassed, because they know it’s true, and they’re doing it cuz it’s rights, I will mention their names, because they say it in public, that they hold of the Rebbe. And those are the names I quoted above.
If the people you hold of, say otherwise why are they embarrassed to say it publicly? Aderabeh if they think they are right, they should publicize their shita, that no one should make CV”s a mistake of holding of the Rebbe. And Lubavitch.
So maybe they are afraid to argue with so many Rebbeim and tamidei chavhomim that held of the Rebbe and Chabad chassidus??“I don’t see a difference between telling a non frum person to do a mitzvah, and telling a goiy to do a mitzvah”
“To me the difference is obvious. There is a din or arvus when it comes to Yidden, but no din of arvus when it comes to goyim.
As to the Rambam you keep quoting, I have already replied that it doesn’t apply nowadays as we can’t do what the Rambam finishes off his halocho with, i.e. punishing those who don’t in beis din. Don’t you think it noteworthy that the Rambam writes specifically לכוף which means “force” them to keep mitzvos? Is that what the lubavicher rebbe said to do?”No he said to tell them about it. Because obviously we can’t לכוף nowadays.
Just because bies din can’t force upon us nowadays ד’ מיתת בית דין therefore we shouldn’t tell yiddin to keep shabbos??? Or for that matter for us to keep shabbos??? Cs”v.
The same oibershther that told us to keep 613 and we have a chiyuv to keep them whether you get malkus or not, the same is with the goiyem, they have a chiyuv to keep 7 mitzvahs benei noach. And therefore we should encourage them to keep them.
whether you like it or not.Surprise you say otherwise, and not only that you say, “stam mishigasim”
And just to note, why are you allowed to do business with goyeim, and hang around them for a whole day, and it’s not a problem of arvus, but when you meet a goiy in the street and tell them nicely about the mitzvos Hashem wants them do fulfill, it’s somehow a problem of arvus.??
“Good question, but the same I can’t understand how he had Ruach hakodesh and did miracles, the same to is with this. Maybe he just was not an ordinary person.”
That doesn’t answer the question. If the Rambam paskened it as a halocho it means it applies to every Yid during his lifetime. This is something your rebbe believed as he always spoke about the primacy of halocho….Did he ever take that shvuah? He just didn’t sleep those days.
And some how punked now you bring up that the Rebbe always spoke about the primacy of halacha, but in the past you say straight out that he didn’t respect halacha.
“And yes the Rebbe had a bed in is room, but that was only in the last five years after the rebbitzim past away.”
??? How does that show anything at all. 1. Before she passed away he went home every night so he didn’t need a bed in his office. 2. The person who told me the story was talking about the early 80s before the rebbetzin passed away”I think we missed understood each other, my point was that the maskirim knew exactly when the went, home, and came to 770, and therefore knew how much he slept, besides the last 5 years they couldn’t tell, because he had a bed in his office.
After all this time I don’t think there is a point in continuing the conversation, because you are not willing to bring even one person that your shitas are based off, after claiming that “most gedoilim don’t hold of the Rebbe”, and your opinion is worthless, whether you personally hold of the Rebbe as a tzadik or not, he knew ten times more then you, (not my opinion, but the opinion of many talmidei chachomim, some which met him personally), and that’s besides the point that he had Ruach hakodesh, and did many miracles. And your not only arguing with the Rebbe himself but all the rebbiem, gedolim, and talmedei chachomim which held of him, Lubavitch, and Chabad chassidus.
Don’t get me wrong, your allowed to ask questions, but you can’t come to conclusions
Hashem should give you all the brochois.
Hatzlocha in all your endeavors.Which heilige seforim mention “Nossi Hador” in connection with someone who lived over the last hundreds, possibly thousand, years? I have searched and found nothing.
They don’t connect it with someone particularly, but to say that such a musig exists, that there is a nossi hador in every generation (no matter how recent) that has a nitzutz of Moishe rabbeinu, like the mekoirios quoted above. Your only problem is that you don’t like that the Rebbe associated the friediker Rebbe as a nossi hador (and the same goes on himself). I can understand your felling, but it’s not a made up thing.
“Did you know that there are Rebbes alive today shlita who spend hours EVERY DAY dealing with chassidim and others?”
Very possible, but do you have any names?
Yes, I think the mivtza of 7 mitvos Bnei Noach is a meshigass, and I have NEVER met any non-lubavicher who thinks otherwise.
What exactly is the “meshigas”? That Hashem commanded them to keep the 7 mitzvos? Or to tell them about it?
I don’t see a difference between telling a non frum person to do a mitzvah, and telling a goiy to do a mitzvah, the same Hashem that commanded us do to 613 mitzvos commanded them to do 7 mitzvos.And what’s with this rambam???
רמב”ם הל’ מלכים פ”ח
וְכֵן צִוָּה משֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ מִפִּי הַגְּבוּרָה לָכֹף אֶת כָּל בָּאֵי הָעוֹלָם לְקַבֵּל מִצְוֹת שֶׁנִּצְטַוּוּ בְּנֵי נֹחַFirst I thought you don’t have to any respect for the Lubavitcher Rebbe (which in itself is surprising) and know it looks like you bechlal don’t have respect to the rambam, or anyone that doesn’t fit your personal shita and mindset. (Miss quoting Gemorahs;))
And btw i met personally many non-Lubavitchers that agree with the Rebbe regarding this.
“The gemoro says it’s not possible, and the Rambam paskens that way. This is not an aggadata as it is nogeia to giving someone malkus in a beis din. There can’t be exceptions. So, in summary, I don’t believe what the mazkirim say. Anyhow, from all the stories the mazkirim were not with him 24/7. Furthermore, he had a bed (possibly a folding bed) in his room. I heard it from a lubavicher (I think he may even be a meshichist – not sure) who saw it.”
Good question, but the same I can’t understand how he had Ruach hakodesh and did miracles to the same is with this. Maybe he just was not an ordinary person.
And yes the Rebbe had a bed in is room, but that was only in the last five years after the rebbitzim past away.
“I have most definitely discussed the matter with numerous chassidishe talmidei chachomim who, were they Litvish, would be considered gedolim, and I have arrived at my opinions based on those discussions.”
NAMES PLEASE
“You caught me on a sefer that I don’t recall having seen, so I looked it up. Written by a lubavicher and published by lubavich. Let me make a guess based on the title, it quotes all types of people who say that the lubavicher rebbe was chad bedoro. Did I get it right?”
If doesn’t make a difference who it was written by, it just states and has pictures of many great rabbeim meeting the Rebbe. Not necessarily Chad bedorah, but that they held of the Rebbe and asked him for brochois.
PACTS WITH NMAES AND PICTURES.
“Can I also guess that there are a lot of people who think otherwise who aren’t quoted?”
Very possible, if you can please name me some.
For some reason you don’t have any………….
Which heilige seforim mention “Nossi Hador” in connection with someone who lived over the last hundreds, possibly thousand, years? I have searched and found nothing.
They don’t connect it with someone particularly, but to say that such a musig exists, that there is a nossi hador in every generation (no matter how recent) that has a nitzutz of Moishe rabbeinu, like the mekoirios quoted above. Your only problem is that you don’t like that the Rebbe associated the friediker Rebbe as a nossi hador (and the same goes on himself). I can understand your felling, but it’s not a made up thing.
“Did you know that there are Rebbes alive today shlita who spend hours EVERY DAY dealing with chassidim and others?”
Very possible, but do you have any names?
Yes, I think the mivtza of 7 mitvos Bnei Noach is a meshigass, and I have NEVER met any non-lubavicher who thinks otherwise.
What exactly is the “meshigas”? That Hashem commanded them to keep the 7 mitzvos? Or to tell them about it?
I don’t see a difference between telling a non frum person to do a mitzvah, and telling a goiy to do a mitzvah, the same Hashem that commanded us do to 613 mitzvos commanded them to do 7 mitzvos.And what’s with this rambam???
רמב”ם הל’ מלכים פ”ח
וְכֵן צִוָּה משֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ מִפִּי הַגְּבוּרָה לָכֹף אֶת כָּל בָּאֵי הָעוֹלָם לְקַבֵּל מִצְוֹת שֶׁנִּצְטַוּוּ בְּנֵי נֹחַFirst I thought you don’t have to any respect for the Lubavitcher Rebbe (which in itself is surprising) and know it looks like you bechlal don’t have respect to the rambam, or anyone that doesn’t fit your personal shita and mindset. (Miss quoting Gemorahs;))
And btw I met lots of non-Lubavitchers that agree with it.
“The gemoro says it’s not possible, and the Rambam paskens that way. This is not an aggadata as it is nogeia to giving someone malkus in a beis din. There can’t be exceptions. So, in summary, I don’t believe what the mazkirim say. Anyhow, from all the stories the mazkirim were not with him 24/7. Furthermore, he had a bed (possibly a folding bed) in his room. I heard it from a lubavicher (I think he may even be a meshichist – not sure) who saw it.”
Good question, but the same I can’t understand how he had Ruach hakodesh and did miracles, the same to is with this. Maybe he just was not an ordinary person.
And yes the Rebbe had a bed in is room, but that was only in the last five years after the rebbitzim past away.
“I have most definitely discussed the matter with numerous chassidishe talmidei chachomim who, were they Litvish, would be considered gedolim, and I have arrived at my opinions based on those discussions.”
NAMES PLEASE
“You caught me on a sefer that I don’t recall having seen, so I looked it up. Written by a lubavicher and published by lubavich. Let me make a guess based on the title, it quotes all types of people who say that the lubavicher rebbe was chad bedoro. Did I get it right?”
If doesn’t make a difference who it was written by, it just states and has pictures of many great rabbeim meeting the Rebbe. Not necessarily Chad bedorah, but that they held of the Rebbe and asked him for brochois.
PACTS WITH NAMES AND PICTURES.
“Can I also guess that there are a lot of people who think otherwise who aren’t quoted?”
Very possible, if you can please name me some.
For some reason you don’t have any………….
@Chabadshluch:
This igros thing that you expect answers from the Rebbe is garbage. The Rebbe said on the friediker Rebbe that HE will find away to answer, not that YOU find him away to answer, after yud shvat the Rebbe said to ask brochois and daven by his kaver, not to ask his igros. And btw the Rebbe didn’t always answer everyone, so who said he answer you (not saying that the Rebbe way of answering can not come sometimes for the igros, could be that’s the way he decided to answer this time, but that’s not the way you ask the Rebbe, and that’s not, that the Rebbe has to answer. The way we know how ask a Rebbe is the Rebbe did it himself.So stop with the mishugasim.
Rso: “Yes, and I have proven it. Remember, my statement was that there has been no such thing for (at least) hundreds of years. Moshe Rabbeinu was the Nossi Hador. There were nesi’im of Shevatim. There were the nesi’im in Eretz Yisroel. But the concept Nossi hador as applied to someone in the last hundreds of years originated with the last lubavicher rebbe.”
So let’s just clarify, it’s not made up by the Rebbe, (because it’s mentioned in many heilikeh sforim,) just the Rebbe was the one that brought it up in the past generations.
So first why does that make it wrong? Second forget about the title of it, you can just look at how the Rebbe acted, for example before Roshe hashona he stood for hours excepting, panim from all types of yeddin for all walks of life, and on Roshe hashona before, tekios, he took all those panim and kevitulach, and put his talis over them and davend and cryed for some time before he blew the shofor. The same with the friediker Rebbe if you know what he did in Russia, and not only that he said many times that he doesn’t want to be the Rebbe for klal Yisrael, but rather a Rebbe like hi father, and that’s why he didn’t want to move to America, until he was just forced to.
Your not forced to accept it, you don’t have too, but this is facts that happened.
Rso: “(I was going to answer the question you asked immediately prior to the one I quoted above, but I thought that there’s no point stam offending you. וד”ל)”
If you can answer those questions please, both of them.
(I’m not getting offended, because I’m not saying my opinion I’m saying what big people hold. But still didn’t bringe a godel or Rebbe that says what you say)
Chossid: “but even then it is told that the Rebbe didn’t sleep a whole sukkis because of the chshash”
It was told from the maskirim that hong around the Rebbe. And took cyof him
The same it doesn’t make sense to you, it doesn’t make sense to me, but that’s what happened.
And in general he didn’t sleep really more then three hours a night, especially in the early years.
If you only knew a little about the Rebbes schedule, he didn’t sleep too much, especially after a whole night of yechidus, which went to the early morning.And regarding the made up mishigas of writing to the igros.
Rso: from where do you get the fact that, “You are certainly in the minority in lubavich.”???The fact is that ruboi kekuloi doesn’t write to the igros.
Now regarding criteria of being a godel or a tzadik.
Your entitled to your opinion.
But I will repeat again, you can’t make up facts according to your on desire, and way you learn, you have to base you shita on some what of a talmid chochom, godel or tzadik. And you should think twice before you come to a maskona, because first you should learn more of what a Rebbe is, and what the Rebbe was, what he was boki in and his day to day life. Second I think you are arguing not just with Lubavitch, but rather must of the chassidishe world, (which you said that you are chassidish.) and some litvish too, you should check up the book חד בדרא and many other books and sforim, and speak to mevinim, before you continue speaking of not holding the Rebbe as godel or tzadik.
Yeshivishrockstar:
First I apologize for not writing harav shach, he did know alot more then me.“I have no intention of bringing up sukkah again here in this forum – my main intention was to demondtrate that it’s not merely sinas chinam when litvishers call certain chabadniks kofrim, but rather that there’s a basis for that.”
What the basis?
First for sinas chinom second that Lubavitch are koifrim.Rso: I’m not here to convince you, I don’t see it happening in the near future, just when you bad mouth Lubavitch and the Rebbe I do intend to say the truth, I don’t have to expect it, hut can’t make up your personal shitas and say it’s factual, without any godel backing you up.
Until you you quote me a godel that says what you say, and not just saying many ‘gedolim didn’t hold of Lubavitch”, (which I’m sure you can find some, but not exactly what you say) I think it’s worthless to continue, because you’re getting stuck in a hole. For example, the Rebbe made up the musag nossi hador, miss quoting Gemorahs, spreading 7 mitzvos Beni noach is “Stam mishigasim”, davaning my a Rebbes/godels kaver- avodah zarah, chabad are koifri, (not all you said, but all was said, just can’t keep track of who said what), when so many Rebbeim and gedolim except Lubavitchers, and didn’t think they are koifrim, (like I named before),Do you still think shavah mitzvos is stam mishugasim? And nossi hador is made up by the Rebbe? And davaning by a kever is kefira…….???
And for the record you should think twice before you say something about the Rebbe or frierdiker Rebbe, (I know when they say something that gets you offended, you just call it non true of fiction), because they are storys that they had kapeidis on people. (Useally it’s known that they don’t but sometimes we heard that they did.) If you ever want to ask michila, don’t do it here, go ask by the Rebbes ohel.
Rso: “No, I can’t tell you what a godol is, but I can tell you just a few of the criteria that he must possess:”
Stira menei ubei. But I can answer of you want.
Rso: 1. He doesn’t try to explain away halochos that he doesn’t keep as irrelevant or inapplicable (e.g. sleeping in a sukkah, not eating Seudah Shlishis, davening after zman tefillah).
First this is a monhag Lubavitch going back the doirios before, and some you can see in other kriesin. second of you know any thing about the Rebbe, he was makpid on halacha, but at the same time he respected a hanhogah of a Rebbe, but even then it is told that the Rebbe didn’t sleep a whole sukkis because of the chshash.
Rso: “2. He doesn’t want to have his name, his picture and his movement plastered everywhere.”
From rule book does this rule come from?
And btw in the early years that Rebbe didn’t anyone take pictures of him, and you can see some pics that the Rebbe block, and there is a story with Sholom Yisrael (I think his last name is) chadekov, which the Rebbe block the camera, (you can see the same with the satmer Rebbe).Rso: “3, He doesn’t come up with childish “proofs” that his movement is the correct one (e.g. Beis Mashiach is begematria 770).”
Don’t get the problem. (Surprised you called childish).
Rso: “4. He tries to ensure there will be a hemshech so that it will not become a vacuum after his passing with everyone doing whatever they want in his name.”
Again making up criterias.
And btw do you have clue what’s going on in ponivich? Everyone still calls them godel beyisrael.Rso: “5. He doesn’t think about promoting himself.”
Cool to see that you have ruach hakodesh, and know what’s going on in his mind. (And why don’t you say the same thing about shach?)
Again these are all made up criterias by a little pipsqueak
All I see is that many gedoilim like I mentioned before don’t think of Lubavitch and aovidy avodah zarah, koifrim, vechulu.
They even learn Lubavitch chassidus, for example harav Chaim kaniefsky which took the sefrei chassidus chabad from Rav berel Lazar, and said to bring the seforim to his room to learn.slabodka: I agree with you 100% that Rabbi did purely out of ahavas Yisrael, just wondering if he thinks he is a koifer then why did he speak so highly of him, for example his Emuna, etc. etc.
But can you explain to me why did all the Rebbeim in eretz Yisrael and also Rav Chaim kaniefsky sit with Rabbi Lazar (chief Rabbi of Russia) and they spoke with him, and accepted sefrei chassidus chabad from him? Isn’t he Lubavitche? I.e. koifr……..?
Rso: “As I don’t consider the lubavicher rebbe a gadol beYisroel, and, as I have written, I see him as someone who had a lot of “talent” but who allowed himself to “stray” from the straight and narrow, I certainly feel that I can argue with what he says. I understand that you see it differently.I don’t”
Can you explain what is a godel? Who fits the criteria? And why you don’t see the Rebbe as a godel? And same with a tzadik. Please
For some reason you guys call every Joe schmo a godel or a tzadik. But the Rebbe Cv”s not.
And if you can explain the Gemorah in it’s words, how it means the way you learn it. Because it doesn’t seem that your learning the Gemorah correctly.
“as you claim, hold that ALL gedolim hold like I do, but I do hold that many of them do, and in that we can include virtually all the litvishe velt.”
Names please, and what exactly they said.
Your opinion is worthless.
(I think your the one that is lacking derech eretz).“Therefore, making sure our kids and talmidim aren’t exposed to danger and have a high level of kedushah is our number one priority. And the proof that your derech is very dangerous is what I have been writing about all the time: lack of tznius, and worse, in lubavich”
Just to note the facts, shluchims kids (which by default are exposed) are way more frum/chassidish and mechunich, better then all the rest of the Lubavitche that doesn’t go on shlichus and stay in crown heights ( not all but nice percentage). So I don’t think the Rebbes plan for shlichus is affecting our on kids.
And if you wore trying to be negative or not i think we can all agree that shluchim have just a little more mesiras nefesh, then the ones that stay in the community to be in kolel or rosh yeshiva.
And btw just to note, i happened to have an uncle to that’s on shlichus for nice amount of years and he doesn’t have a kehilah, doesn’t get any kovod, all he does is visiting people and speak to them to do more mitzvos. etc. And I happen to be by a shliach recently that does the same. With no normal income, And believe me it’s hard work, so don’t just upmach the whole thing.Regarding the problems and storys you say about us, I can say the same about you guys (just for some reason I don’t see a reason to speak about it), I hang around alot of litvishe/chassidish bochurim that do plenty of terrible stuff, which I won’t even try to put it in words, (and they come from a officially good yeshiva), so please stop bringing up problems, because like I said before no one is perfect. Each kreis has different problems that are worse then the other.
Username: tzuvishin dir un mir, I know want they say about lubavitch, and what the Rebbe said back, just i never heard in my life people for example rso. saying such crazy things about the Rebbe and chabad, saying that all the Rebbe did was for his on koved….. Friediker Rebbe that all he wrote is fiction……. and that we are aovid avodah zarah, because we write a tzetul to the Rebbe, (just like other chassidim write a kevitul to their Rebbe, and litvaks to Rav Shtieman zatzal, (even after he past away) and for some reason no one calls them aovid avodah zarah). And claims that Chabad are koifrim…. (All this without mekoirs.. just because it’s new musogim to them), so after all that, I do intend to know from him exactly where does he base his opinion on, And then we can have a conversation between what did the gedoilim say and what the Rebbe said, (we don’t have to come to an agreement, and they also didn’t).
Just to note today is zoz Chanukah (a guteh kvitul to everyone) this year we are celebrating the anniversary of the geulah of Sholom Mordecai Rubashkin, for one reason or another, all the yiddin and gedoilim and rabbeim from litvish to chassidish davend for him while he was in jail, and when he got out, thousands upon thousands of people came to celebrate his geulah, and this year too in boro park.
Now if Lubavitche are koifrim, and aovid avodah zarah, mishichistim, etc. etc. Why did almost all gedoilim from all walks of life (including Rabbi Pinchas lefshitz which is the head of a newspaper that used to be very anti Lubavitch) meet with him, and daven for him? ( No one bothered to ask what’s his hashkofa).Actually regarding this day which brought achdus between yeddin, I think we should focus on what unites us, and not the opposite.
Maybe we should have a decision about adding in our avodah, and how can we do Hashems rotzion properly.
Rso: I don’t know which statement of mine you are referring to, but there are MANY Litvishe gedolim who spoke out openly against your rebbe, and there are also a number of chassidishe rebbes who did.
Every tayneh you have against the shita of chabad and the Rebbe, and you make according to that a maskona, is worth nothing, until you have a godol or Rebbe that says that maskona, only then we can have a conversation who is right, but until then it’s worthless.
So I’m asking which godel held against Lubavitche, Rebbe and what did he say and what did the Rebbe say back and hold. Because you keep on saying that ALL GEDOILIM hold what you say.Rso:I’m sure on occasion it’s Ahavas Yisrael that is their impetus, but knowing MANY chabad house directors I am also sure that it is often just a matter of finding a job – sometimes a hard job – that gives you kovod within your own circle and in a community of people who don’t know any different.
If it’s just ahavas Yisrael then why don’t the litvish or chassidish do the same? ( Maybe they are lacking in AY). And there is enough of ahavas Yisrael to be done in our on community. Second, there are many of talented Lubavitchers that can run big businesses and be rabbonim, melamdim…. But they decided for some reason that they are going to leave their comfort zone, and go to a hole in middle of the world and build up a community from scratch, I don’t really think it’s a lack of a job, aderabeh I know people that lelf there job to go on shlichus.
Now in everything that a yid does, there is always a little if yeshus involved, wherever you are chabad being a shliach, litvish being a godel etc. etc. just some people like to put down people and focus on the negative.Rso: What about all the fights when shlichim open up chabad houses that encroach on other shlichim’s territories? Is that a manifestation of Ahavas Yisrael?
Imagine someone opens up a business right by your business which you work for year to build up, wouldn’t you be upset? Now even you can’t compare to einyonai kedush but the concept exist, after a shliach comes down somewhere and buids up a community with programs and Bal habatim, then in middle of nowhere someone comes down and takes all he’s Bal habatim, it only makes sense to be upset, ( even though it’s not the ideal). So therefore they came up p with a system that shluchim have territories.
Rso: What about the fights with the “mushrooms” (I’ll let you explain what I am referring to if you feel like it.) If these people are doing the same rebbe’s work that the official shlichim are doing, why are they considered out of line and “mushrooms”?
They are not doing the same other shluchim, they are going to against the Rebbe ( most of them) they don’t listen to the system the Rebbe made and the people the Rebbe appointed, therefore they don’t deserve to be shluchim and most of them are mishichistim.
And regarding tzius, I do agree that there is a problem regarding tzius, and btw it’s a problem in other community’s too, now if a child whose not michunich properly with kedusha probably, then it makes sense that he will not be acting accordingly. Now you have to take into consideration two things, 1 that a lot of people in Lubavitche are Bal teshuvas and mikurovim and they have very weak homes, since they them selves wore never michunich properly so they don’t know how to be mechanech ( which is a big problem). 2 that when a child nebech is falling off the derech we don’t through them out of the house like other companies, like the chassidishes. These are not excuses or justifying anything, it’s just the fact, and a reason why we see more tzius problems in Lubavitche (which we have to fix).
Now if people don’t act accordingly to Torah or a certain hashkofa it’s doesn’t affect the kedusha of Torah or a hashkofa. Thre just not acting accordingly. I personally think that chabad chassidus has a lot to offer to your avodah, and I will love to discuss about this topic if anyone is interested.
Now regarding Sheva mitzvos: rso I don’t get how you could learn the Gemorah your way, it just doesn’t seem to make sense in the words, is it that you are miss quoting a Gemorah just to justify yourself that Sheva mitzvos is Stam mishigasim, (I think aderabeh it’s a rayeh to tell goyim about it).
And also the Rebbe didn’t say to go to goyim, rather if you meet a goy. And for your reason rso that there is arvus with goyim, I think you shouldn’t go for that reason to any non Jewish store.I think your just trying to find the negative to bring rayis to your agenda. I see that purely out of sinas chinom, I’m seeing this meny times, shliachs- just to find a job, tzius, and Sheva mitzvos- false raies for the Gemorah.
רבי יהודה אומר אלו שלשים צדיקי אומות העולם שאומות העולם מתקיימים עליהם עולא אמר אלו שלשים מצות שקבלו עליהם בני נח ואין מקיימין אלא שלשה אחת
Rabbi Yehuda says: These are the thirty righteous individuals among the nations of the world, in whose merit the nations of the world continue to exist. Ulla says: These are the thirty mitzvot that the descendants of Noah initially accepted upon themselves; but they fulfill only three of them. One of these three mitzvot isRso please explain how you see from the Gemorah you quoted that “Aderaba the fact that they keep even three things is part of the cause of our lengthy golus” I see that since they are ONLY keeping 3 and not ALL is a reason that we are in golus.
Please correct me if I’m wrongMe: And to the non Jews explain to them the seven noahide laws.”
Rso: The third, bimchilas kvodo, is stam meshigass.
If you can please explain why.That’s not why I say all the bad things about them, and your response is typical of lubavich going on the attack instead of addressing the issues. I have said a number of times that lubavich does fantastic things in the area of Ahavas Yisroel, but their hashkofos are really badly messed up. Their chauvinism, which btw is totally misplaced, their claims to have the Mashiach when they are lacking so much tznius and derech eretz, are a joke, and it is that type of activity that I continue to attack.
Don’t you think theee is something behind there ahavas Yisrael thats getting them to go in this crazy places, with so many challenges, chinuch for there kids, money, no family around them to help, no suda that they don’t have guest, which causes that they can’t give the right amount of attention to there kids, etc. etc. Let me tell you a little secret, it’s there hashkofa that kepps them going.
Have you ever considered that maybe you hashkofa is messed up? Just wondering.
Why does the fact that they are lacking in tzius, make that everything else is wrong? Like I have said before we all have yetzer horah, yes Lubavitcher have yetzer horahs, its not an excuse, rather a fact, some people have hard time not saying loshen horoah and moitzi Shem, and some in other places, and we are all trying to over come it. We are not perfect.
Chosid: ” You still didn’t tell me which model said agenst the Rebbe and what exactly did he say and what did the Rebbe say back.”
???
You still didn’t tell me which GADOL said agenst the Rebbe and what exactly did he say and what did the Rebbe say back.