Chossid

Neville ChaimBerlin
“OK, if the sicha is as you present it, then you can put your money where your mouth is and put a stop to this whole entire discussion. Repeat after me:
“Chabad is meikel with regards to sleeping in the Sukkah.””

If your problem is that it bothers you that someone can be more machmir then you then you, I have no problem saying that I’m more meikil.

I can definitely say that no sleeping in the sukkka, is not being more machmir then the ones that are, but I can’t say (according to my knowledge of the sicha) not were being more meikil, is just a minhag that we don’t, (and the minhag is not being mevatel mitzvos teishvu) but if you consider it bieng meikil, then I got no problem with it.
My only problem is that how you can have a whole conversation with teinois on us, when you never learned the sicha.
Sounds pretty ridiculous.

For all these comments it looks like you guys just get your info online propaganda, and believe it’s true.
Be a normal person and look up the enyonim.

Ysiegel
Have you seen the (handwritten) letter of the Rebbe (ZATZAL) stating that it is irrelevant what the name of Mashiach is? (And others similar?). And those times he refused to go out to the Lag Baomer parade because the “flaggers” of the day were there?
Yes.
I agree with you 100%.
I never said it’s relevant, nor did I say he is moshiach, and it’s not noigeih who he is.
I here do to some people that claim that chabad are koifrim….. and I can’t whole myself (which is a problem) from not responding to such allegations. But guess what א קאפ קען מען נישט איופשטעלן. Just complete nonsense

LerntminTayrah
You need some major help.
If someone believes that יעקב אבינו לא מת, is that avoida Zara? Kifira?
When the yeddin ask moshe for food and water in the midbor, is the avoida Zara?
If someone asks a Rebbe for a brocha for help, is that avoid Zara?
Why was is so important to have a Moishe Rabbiu, why should we go through him, we should go straight to Hashem?
If I believe that what the zoihar says דצדיקא דאתפטר – אשתכח בכלהו עלמין יתיר מבחיוהי , is that kifira?
If I believe what chzal say מה זרעו בחיים אף הוא בחיים, is that kifira?
What is life anyway?

I seriously going to the time to keep up with all the comments, how do you guys have the time?.

Haimy I’m very pleased to hear that you go out there to deal with the problem. Kol hakavod

“after learning with a college boy for 3 years, he went on to Ohr Sameiach & joined a kollel, Both his parents were Jewish.”
Wonderful thing and big zechus.
But how do you know that his parents are Jewish?
Maybe somewhere up the line there was an intermarriage? No? Isn’t there such a big percentage of that?
אלא מאי you looked into it (hopefully).
So why do you assume that chabad doesn’t?

The Chanukah parties are for the Jews that the shluchim are in touch with, not the non jews. (If there’s a non-jew who pops up occasionally, we take the right steps to take care of it.

“This problem is only getting worse & we would be foolish to think it doesn’t exist.”

Who said it doesn’t exist? One of the reasons the Rebbe sent shluchim is for exactly this reason, he said “there’s a fire burning in the world and we have to save them from assimilation”. I’m glad you guys picked up on it.
But why don’t you look at the positive side, how many people have saved from intomarriage, on an day to day basis?

And regarding your last concern, if there is a non religious Jew that what’s to get married according to halocha, and wants an orthodox Rabbi to officiate, A. That means he is sincere regarding the marriage, and he will do the divorce according to halocha, and B. The shliach teachers all the laws regarding marriage and tells them that if you want to get a divorce you have to do so according to halocha. That simple.
And besides the point no non religious Jews want an Orthodox Rabbi to officiate their wedding, and if they do, that means they know the Rabbi for a nice amount of time, and the Rabbi will make sure everything is done properly.
If your concern should be also regarding frum community, there are so many stories when husband does want to get to get to his wife and that could lead to big problems. (Obviously the concern is not exactly on the same level, but you got the point.)

Syag Lchochma
It isn’t about hate, it is about watching people do things we know to be wrong.
I think you see yourself, how many lies were made about chabad, and that’s why I would consider it hate (sometimes).
Have you ever thought that maybe what you see at first glance may seem wrong, but if you delve in a little bit and learn the subject, it might give you some clarity? ( Like learning a shtikul Gemorah).
Just look at the statistics, it’s not only Chabad that doesn’t consider them selves ovif havoda zara, it’s also many non Lubavitchers that say the same, litvishe and chassidish, and don’t forget that a big percentage of Chabad weren’t originally lubavitch, meaning they didn’t consider your concerns true.
So maybe think again and learn more about it, you might change your mind, like your neighbors.
As yeddin we don’t try to find a fault in someone else.

But great questions LerntminTayrah and I advise you to go over to a well-respected Lubavitcher and ask him your questions.
Maybe ask Rabbi YY Jacobson, he’s a well-respected Lubavitcher in the litvish world

Sorry, for some reason I stopped getting the emails
Correction: …….The more you understand how the only
ONE you should serve is Hashem himself.

ZionGate
Cool , interesting.
But I don’t really get it.
If it’s true it’s a real chutzpah, and it’s complete hatred.
But either way you should work in the FBI, or special council committee.

Haimy where exactly to you get your facts from?
Or your just interested in hate.
Why is your question to Chabad a not all kiruv organizations?

I work in the teen program and each teen that comes to the shabbaton, was in the teen program for at least a year, and no rabbi is interested in putting so much effort in a goiy, and any time we a approach someone for tefillin, we ask if his mothers mother was Jewish, and before we marry them the rabbonim do a thorough research in there yichus, check their grandparents kvura, and many other things.
One of the rules chabad has is, that we won’t even “bar mitzvah” someone that his not Jewish, or someone that didn’t have an Orthodox conversion, because that might lead to a different rabbi marring him off, and using some “rayeh” that he had a orthodox rabbi by his bar mitzvah, (even though it’s not a rayeh.)
Every chabad house rabbi knows exactly who is Jews and who is not in his Chabad house, no one is interested in putting thousands of dollars into someone to grew in his Judaism, if he is not Jewish.
On side note I know of a shliach that didn’t accept $200,000 at least, from someone to build his Chabad house, because he was not Jewish and he wanted his name on the building.
So get your facts straight.

There we go a again.
Loshen hara
Can I know where you get the fact that the teen program has non jews?
The fact is, only Jews are allowed to be in the program, which means only if the mother was Jewish.
So stop with the lies
And in fact it’s a teen program for the whole entire world, not just USA.

Why can’t the mods moderate, and make sure that you can’t post lies on the CR, they should research the facts before posting.
Not everyone that has a stomach ache can just post online, loshen hara.

At what point are considered a godol? Boki beshas? Have a following?
Why should one strive to become a godol?
Shouldn’t we just strive to become an oivid Hashem?
Should teacher our children and students to learn to become a godol betorah, or learn because it’s Hashems Torah?

“Of course you have questions i can’t answer. I’m not a gadol, just a balabos loser who hangs out in the CR. ”

(Don’t worry we’re not perfect people, and it’s ok not to have all the answers)

The reason I asking you these questions, is because it looks like from your posts that you know what these concepts mean, and therefore you claim that we’re violating stuff, but if you can’t explain exactly why it’s completely wrong to start bashing Chabad with all this moitzi Shem rah.

So if you can’t back up all your facts then either take them back or give me a proper mareh mokoim for ALL your teines. And if you have a question, you got to tell me why the answer is not good.
It’s completely wrong, when someone asks a question whatever he should join chabad, to start putting down chabad, and spreading lies about Chabad, and even let’s say in theory your teines are true, you still have no right Al pi Torah to say loshen hara.
If you’re so worried about olam haboh you should stay away from loshen hara, I’m sure you know what chazal say about someone who speaks loshen hara. And it’s a vadai not a sofek.
So be careful.

And I’m sure there are more Gedolim that would pasken that what you’re doing wrong, then Gedolim saying that chabad is wrong.

“But the gedolim who do know better than me and aren’t fooled by sophistry have paskened.”

For every teineh you posted here , you have to give me
1. a name of a godol.
2. Where does he say these facts that you claim.
3. Why should that override the rest of the Gedolim, Rebbeim that don’t agree with them.

Until then I have no right to open your mouth.

I hope I’m not being to tough, I’m just being reasonable.

I like your deroshes, but I really don’t know where got your facts from, it’s simply “fake new”.
Have you asked any Lubavitcher who he davens to?
I think you should personally go to the ohel and ask anyone there who they are davaning to.

I will tell you a little secret, the nusach when we go to the ohel is אנא לעורר רחמים רבים עבורי, your asking the Rebbe to be a mielitz yoisher for you, just like by any heilikeh tzadiks kever, and the same with asking a brocha from a Rebbe, it’s not the Rebbe healing you, it’s Hashem himself through the the Rebbes brocha.

So if you can please explain to me exactly how are we oivid A”Z by davaning at the ohel.

Can you name exactly which godol said we are being oivid or sofiek A Z? I’m a “tinoik shenishbah”

I find it so interesting that when I try to make a point and mention about my grandparents not being originally Lubavitche, you turn the whole thing over on me, and say loshen horoah that I’m going to not get job because I’m not geshe.
And btw where did you get this fact from, I have yet to see a non geshe being restricted to get a job.
Don’t get your point regarding the Kool-Aid.
The more a more you post the more I’m releasing that “I’m” a “tinoik shenishbah”.

Wow do people have so much time posting?

Before I respond to anything I Just have a simple question.
Why when someone asks (don’t know if it was sincere or not) and says that he feels that chabads hashkofa and outlook on life is more positive then his own upbringing, and his only concern is that he is going to be name called, why in response does everyone start bashing, name calling Chabad, and saying loshen horoah, why don’t you tell him how special the litvish outlook on life is, and explain to him how special he is for growing up in the litvish velt??
Instead of all that you go put another group down, why don’t you bring yourself up? Isn’t that basic ahavas Yisrael?
Why every time when chabad is mentioned do you have a urge to put them down?
What exactly is bothering my friend?

I got one question

Why when someone asks (whether he was sincere or not) regarding joining Lubavitche, and says that he feels that chabads hashkofa, and outlook on life is more positive, and only concern is that people will mock him, does everyone stat bashing chabad, and putting down chabad, and saying all this lochon harah, of you really care why don’t you explain to him the litvish outlook life, and explain to him how special litvish is that there is no reason to join chabad.???

Does that make too much sense??

I daven mincha many times in a litvish yeshiava that does heicha kidusha, and the first time I davend there it took me by surprise , (since I never of such a thing before). so I went over to the Roshe Yeshiva nicely asked what’s the reason for this, and he said this is ongenumen from amol because of bitul Torah. Then I walk outside and lo and behold I see all the bochurim playing basketball.
This might be only one case,I’m not saying this is all the yeshivois, but wondering does this make sense at all and mutar Al pi haloch? I find it funny that the Roshe Yeshiva make the whole Yeshiva wait for him to finish his extra long shemoina esrie, but the they can’t sacrifice 3 minutes for Chazoras hashats.
If they’re so worried about bitul Torah then it would only make sense that they should sacrifice time from their break, Instead of cutting ends on davaning

“Chossid, why is llearning chassidus so important?”

Yes, If you can explain to me why learning Torah is so important.

Why not gemara and shulchan aruch?
Did anyone say it’s not? (It seems like you are just hearing loshon harah)

Btw we learn more Gemorah and shulchon aruch then chassidus, in our Yeshiva system.
So get the facts straight.
Maybe come and visit Chabad yeshivois and check then out.
In the past year a few chassidish yeshivas brought their bochurim to Chabad yeshivois to check in out, and learn chassidus together.
Feel free to join.

“Gedolim attend chabad weddings because chezkas kashrus”

Halevai you would at least follow their way….. And not call Chabad all these names, and be moitzi Shem rah.

But you missed the point, if a certain kries are koifrim… Lev Tahor. Then no godol will attend their events, so from the fact that they do, is proof that they don’t agree with you.

“But go around litvish yeshivos instead of going by what people say hear and you will quickly see that Chabad is very suspect”

I hang around litvish yeshivois, and btw I live in a litvish community. And I can tell you one thing, they are dieing to learn more chassidus, and hear another chassidish vort. I speak to them all day, and nobody ever told me these cheshoshois. Because it’s all false.
And I know personally, many well respected litvish people that go to the Rebbes Ohel, they just got to do it in secret, because they are scared people are going to bad mouth them.

Yes eventually people start seeing beyond the loshin harah that people say against an eida kedeisha.
I hope eventually you too.

And btw if you only knew who shabtzi tzvi was and how he was mevazeh Torah, you wouldn’t dear ever say your last comment.

Your just revealing your true colors, who is the tinoik shenishba (bein loshon harah and moitzi Shem rah).

Dear writer
I hear your frustration, but my point just flew over your head.

Did I ever say this?
“This is the problem with you guys, someone visits a lubavitcher or listens to a dvar Torah so you already turn them into leaving their own minhagim and seeing “the light” of chabad.”

You missed the point, I’m trying to bring out that if all these Gedolim/Rebbeim agreed, that chabad are koifrim, apikursim, Lev Tahor, then they wouldn’t attend these Chabad weddings, dance to chabad nigunim, or meet with Lubavitcher chassidim.
From the fact that they do attend, it seems that they don’t agree with these comments.

No one is claiming that they should change or changed their minhagim.

The Rebbe never told people to change thier minhagim, in fact, there is lots of Lubavitchers that wear a shtrimul and lingeh rekul, some wore personally told by the Rebb how to change.
Rather the Rebbe encourage them to learn chassidus.

Sorry if you missed my point, I hope you do now.
Have a great shabbos.

LerntminTayrah
“In fact, most Lubavitchers today are tinokos shenishbu, unable to see beyond the cult they were born into, and unable to read the ikrei emunah of the Rambam and realize how many are being violated regularly. ”

So if your not a dinok shenishbu
Please explain all the עיקרי האמונה and why Chabad violates them.

“1. Hashem alone runs the world, not in partnership with any Rebbe”

Agreed, but what does it mean Hashem runs the world? How does השגחה פרטית work with this that we have בחירה חופשית?

And btw we/yiddin are a shutif with a Hashem in creating the world, by us doing mitzvos we become a shutif with Hashem, (I forgot the exact loshon hamedrish)

Please explain.

“2. Hashem alone lives forever.”

Don’t think it’s the right way of butting it, Hashem is מחויב המציאות, he never had a תחילה to have a סוף. So it’s not really fit to say that on Hashem.

“3. Hashem has no physical form, so you can’t say atzmus melubash baguf”

No person and כ”ש someone that learns chassidus would ever say that, because עצמות is impossible to be מתלבש in פרטים because כל עצם בלתי מתחלק, so how would that make sense that it’s mislabesh in a guff, אלא מאי, you should find out what he meant, before coming with daynios

“4. You are only allowed to Daven to Hashem, nobody else”

100% I don’t know anyone that davens to a Rebbe, but I do know people daven by the ohel for him to be a mielitz yoisher for us.

5. If a person claiming to be moshiach dies, that’s it for his candidacy. Quoting gemaras about Yaakov Avinu lo meis or similar doesn’t change the fact that in metzius, the Rebbe was niftar and got buried 25 years ago.

Please explain what yakov avinu lo mies means, did he have a kevurah?

Learn the Gemorah, and the ein yakov thoroughly.

6. If someone claims to be a navi and makes multiple false prophecies about when moshiach is coming (a good prophecy), then that person is a navi sheker. Not hatred, halacha.

Please explain where you got this from, and what exactly did the Rebbe say.

“Like I said, they have forced and krum terutzim, and can fool regular people.”

Your personal opinion. Have you ever thought that you’re the fool?
(Especially comparing Chabad to Lev Tahor find me one godel that said that.)

“But that’s why we have gedolim, who can tell you not to listen to forced and krum teirutzim.”

Who told you and what exactly did he tell you?

I wonder why Rebbe Chaim kaniefsky had Rabbi Berel Lazarbin his office and accepted chabad chassidus seforim from him, (told his gabai to bring it to his room, so he can learn through the seforim.
Harav shtiemen told people to send thier kids to a chabad school (in Italy) and don’t make your own school.

Rabbi Lifshits spoke highly about chabad.

Rabbi Yerucham Olshin made such an effort to come from lakeood to Rubashkins chassuna, and you see him in a video dancing to Lubavitcher niginim.

And some Roshe Yeshiva (I forgot his name (the one that made a chierim against El Al a few months ago) is seen dancing with hundreds of Bochurim in a video dancing to a chabad nigun that was made in honor of the Rebbes birthday 40 years ago.

So many Rebbeim and Rebbelach came to see, and visit the Rebbe. Check the safer Chad bedorah.

I could go on and on, the point is, have you ever thought maybe chabad is not bad after all and it’s just bunch of loshin harah? or your going to call these rabbonim/Gedolim also tinoikos shinishbu, and supporting a cult??.

I don’t need you to go explain everything, my only point is, that if you have טענות, go to a respected Lubavitcher rov/mashia and ask him your questions, (if you takeh believe that you are not a hater,) instead of writing it here and black lashing an eda kidiesha

“Don’t listen to me, maybe I’m just a krum snag hater.”

Efsher takeh

“Listen to your gedolim, follow your mesorah.”
100%

That’s all I have got to say, have hatzlocha in all your endeavors.

You don’t need to respond. I think it’s worthless.
And waste of time. Until you want to open up a safer and learn the a subject and check the facts, before you come to conclusions.

Found some time to answer.

“Chossid, no, I have never learned the sichah dealing with not sleeping in the sukkah, ”

Then that shows you are not interested in understanding, rather….. Any sincere person when he doesn’t understand a concept he goes and learns the einyen before he comes up with a opinion. Seriously.
Just because some concepts are new to you, it doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
Don’t get me wrong, you don’t necessarily need to agree, but you can’t just mock the shita. You could expect it as a shita but you don’t have to agree.

“I have learnt repeatedly the Rambam that so many lubavichers quote as “proof” that your rebbe was/is Mashiach, and I have listened to it being intentionally mistranslated and misexplained many, many, many times. ”

Ok I said before I’m not well versed in the concept of Moshiach, all I could say is that the Rebbe never tried proving who moshiach is from the rambam, it’s just some meshchistim, and CS, no one else on this group claimed it. And believing the Rebbe is moshiach is not at all kfirah. (Like we all came to the conclusion earlier).

“You go on the attack with me here but you still don’t give an iota of explanation as to how the Rambam’s criteria point anywhere near the lubavicher rebbe. I don’t mind you attacking me. ”

I never argued with you about moshiach so i don’t know what you are referring to “attacking you”.

“In fact when you attack me and you avoid addressing the issues, as you have done in this post of yours, it just proves to me that you don’t have what to answer. But you’re not alone. No lubavicher does.”

To my knowledge all your issues I responded to. But you kept quiet after I responded to you regarding if he Rebbe made up the concept of nossi hador, and Sheva mitzvos is “Stam mishigasim”. So maybe just keep your comment to yourself.
And no one answered (besids you on 2 questions, which I’m not satisfied with, just don’t have the time to type up pages of chassidus) on the topic of reason for mitzvos. Don’t worry you don’t have to I will fall asleep with and answer.

And I think username also responded to you. So I don’t know what you mean “no Lubavitcher does”.

I think the core problem is that you don’t even hold that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is a man deomar, so you just mock everything he says. And you just say this “It’s all boich sevoros built on air and baseless claims made by your rebbe.” First you have zero respect for a talmid chochom, not even to mention a tzadik, Bal ruach hakodesh, and mofsim.
I wonder why you hold of the people you make your shitas from, more then the Rebbe, which so much of klal Yisrael held of him, and must of chassidishe world agrees with, that he is (at least) a man deomar. Not even mentioning how many thousands of them learn chassidus chabad and come to chabad Farbrengens, and go to the Rebbes ohel, and some come full fledge Lubavitchers.

And you just disregard him. Maybe it’s just that you like yourself and whoever agrees with your shita you hold of, and whoever doesn’t fit with your shita, you just degrade him and say it’s “boich svoros”.

And know regarding what you say that no one outside Lubavitche agrees with.

Let say no one agrees.
I will say again, each kreis fallows their Rebbe or rov, even if no one else agrees with him. You don’t have to agree with the Rebbe, but you absolutely have no right to put him down. Does everyone hold of the heter of shaving your beard? Or just one man deomar said the heter and those who follow him shave, even though the whole chassidish world doesn’t agree with him.
Get it straight, not every shita Lubavitche has (and same with everyone else), has to have a haskomoh from the world.

“Have you been paying attention? How many times have I stated and repeated that I have nothing against different minhogim and hashkofos? What irks me and many others is the claim that lubavich minhogim and hashkofos are at the pinnacle of the Torah world, when so many of the justifications given for them are meaningless and at times outright lies.”

First you stated many times that you do have problems with our hashkofa, second if it doesn’t fit with the “Torah world”, why don’t you have a problem? And who is bechlal the “Torah world”, and who made up this concept?

I would like to say, you can’t convince a person (non Lubavitcher) that is not interested in understanding to start agreeing with Lubavitch if he is just clueless of who the Rebbe is, what Lubavitche is, what’s chabads hashkofa, to start believing everything that Chabad says. Just like you can’t convince a goiy the whole concept of mitzvos and yomim toivim, if he doesn’t know who Hashem is and the Torah. The same is with any shita of someone, you won’t agree with his shita unless you know that he is a talmid chochom, and man deomar. The same is with Lubavitch and the Rebbe, (I don’t know why in the world CS opened this thread, and what her agenda is, and half the things she says are just made up, and not what the Rebbe said). Anyone who is sincere, and wants to understand what Lubavitche and the Rebbe is, and only way to do it, is to learn what it is, learn chabad Torah, learn the Rebbes Torah.

And I personally think it will change your opinion. You won’t be the first one, thousands before you did it, and currently now thousands are learning the Rebbes Torah and chassidus chabad. And I can promise you, and you can ask any of them what they think of it.
(Btw half of Lubavitche are balei tshuava, and people that originally were from different kreisin.)

So before you do that you should be quiet.
Case closed.

“Do the lubavichers on this forum finally realize that they have no acceptable responses to our problems with their views? Is that why there is no activity here?”

Having a hard time falling asleep???

Well I do have a life besides this, I have a full day of chavrusa. And unfortunately I don’t get paid to respond.

But when I have the time I will respond.

And btw if you really have real problems, (which I don’t mind) why don’t you actually check up the topic before making conclusions (and not the other way around)? Like any other normal person who wants to get answers he learns the subject really well. (For example the sicha on sleeping in the sukkah) If you wore really sincere. Asking for too much?

But when the the time allows I will try to answer.