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Saythatagain is another voice of sanity.
TO mdlevine:
I must have overlooked your posting on Page 7 last week.
Yashe Co’ach for taking the time and effort, but it’s a b’racha l’vatala to think UJM is capable of learning anything.
What is amazing is that UJM posts his source in the Mishne Brura, insists that the Mishne Brura says something that is nowhere to be found, is proven wrong by many who do look up his source, and UJM still insists that the Mishne Brura says it.
The only thing that UJM has proven is his amaratzos and er shemt zich nisht.
UJM said:
“ChanieE, When someone starts comparing tznius, which comes from the Torah, to the Taliban, burqas, etc. it sure shows what they think of the Torah”.
Another Torah tzenius basic for you: A man should not address a strange woman by her first name.
One thing though, it’s amazing the amount of achdus this inyun has caused. Amongst the various paths of frumkeit, Rabbi Lamm and the YU Roshei Yeshiva are on the same page as Rabbi Belsky and the rest of the Yeshivish/Chasidish velt.
UJM: Your right for once. I would add to the list that women should never be seen at all.
Also those on your Experienced List have no more experience than those your Inexperienced list.
I think Obama served something like 144 days.
And what about Revered? Many presidents are revered. And what makes you think that LBJ and Truman were revered? And which Bush do you mean?
UJM, If you can’t originate, don’t imitate.
UJM, just like I said.
squeak: “And many of our most revered presidents were once thought of as grossly inexperienced”.
Like who?
To Chachom and UJM:
Halavai, you would learn from the Chofetz Chaim of his sensitivity and love of klal yisroel, and his approach concerning tznius.
According to Chazal, unless you know how to give musser, it’s best not to.
Rabbiofberlin:
My point being, if Rabbi Silberberg is going to demand an apology from Rabbi Belsky, then demand it of all, because they’ve all expressed the same thoughts. There has never been another issue such as the Moshiach concern that has all Orthodox factions in agreement.
Rabbiofberlin, you can go to a Chabad web site right now and ask the Rebbe any question or ask for advice on any issue, and you will receive an instant answer from him.
MAKE COPIES OF THIS PAGE AND PASTE IT IN ALL SHULS, OR WHERE EVER GIRLS, WOMEN (MEN ALSO) WILL READ IT.
Rabbi Silberberg:
While your comments are directed at Rabbi Belsky, you of course aware, that his carefully chosen wording reflects that of almost all Orthodox Rabbis across a wide spectrum, excluding Lubavitch. These rabbis are both community Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva representing Orthodoxy’s Centrist philosophies; Yeshivish Litvish; Chasidish; Sefaradim.
It’s high time for the Crown Heights community not deny its children a manhig or Rebbe, so essential for its unity and the unity of Klal Yisroel.
UJM- I’ll bet dollars to donuts that you don’t have a rebbe or rav that you consult with on a regular bases. It’s very obvious that you are your own posek and therefore you make up your own torah.
You said- “cherrybim may not like this and try to fardrei Mishna Berura as being “too complex too understand””
There you go again, making things up. I never said that the Mishna Berura as being “too complex too understand”. I said that you should “learn Mishna B’rura with a posek or rav and you will eventually get to know how to analyze and interpret the Mishna B’rura on your own. It’s hazardous to just read the words and paskin on your own.”
From the looks of it I’m not alone.
By the way, before I stuck my neck out, I did ask a rav and posek concerning the hat/jacket halachic status. I repeated what he said to me. So you and zalman and yes, all the other amaratzim can continue to insist that the hat and jacket is a halacha and not a maila for shmona esrei. It only shows that you can’t be taken seriously for any of your pronouncements because peanut brains just like to hear yourselves talk. A bee g’ret.
TO UJM- This was said with you in mind (Tzu g’past:
Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt
To UJM and friends:
Are you too indolent to read the previous posts? All of this and more have been covered and explained already.
Do yourself a favor, learn Mishna B’rura with a posek or rav and you will eventually get to know how to analyze and interpret the Mishna B’rura on your own. It’s hazardous to just read the words and paskin on your own.
By the way, do think a Rav would allow someone to daven without a hat or jacket in his shul if that person was being oiver an aveira by doing so?
Also, to clear the air, I do daven with a hat, and jacket, and tie, and take off my boots, and do not daven with a coat on, and trim my nails every erev shabbos. But far be it for me to think that I or my t’filos are any better than someone who doesn’t.
To GENT:
Rav Moshe proves from the Karban Pesach that here is no chiyuv for mechitza at weddings and other gatherings. He says that multiple families would unite to eat the Karban Pesach. Men and women would eat together without a mechitza since it could not be eaten in separate groups. Rav Moshe brings other proofs as well.
Do you think women danced in the alte heim! Feh! The only dancing for women was in the bundist circles.
And speaking of the Rav Moshe being m’suder at mixed table weddings. A better statement would be ,,did Rav Moshe have mixed table weddings for his children?
I’m not telling.
Good Shabbos, I’m late because of this YW blog addiction.
Think Big: Yes, and I ‘m talking 60’s; 70’s; and certainly before. These were Yeshiveshe weddings that I attended both in New York City and other cities (I would was not from NYC but would come in from Yeshiva).The m’saderei kiddushin at these weddings were established “giant” Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim of that era. The two major NY bands then were Rudy Tepel and Joe King.
lesschumras, I’ve brought that up in almost every post, but the “shaina yidden” like to ignore that most important point. Thanks.
lgbg, I’m with you except for one item. You can do your hishtadlus if you want(it’ll make you less nervous, thinking that you’re doing something), but it’s not necessary. The shidduch can happen in an instant, and when you least expect it.
Joseph, true, that’s my point. In innocent times many tzinus issues of today were not an issue then.
This is confirmed by many of the practices that involved woman and men (recorded in Tenach and throughout Shas) that would be frowned upon today. You seem very educated, so you know what I’m talking about.
Joseph, years ago you only had mechitzas for davening in shul.
At weddings, the men danced at one end and the women at the other end. There was no more yetzer hara to look at them at that time, than there is today. As you know, where there is a will, there is a way- mechitza or no mechitza.
And guess what, look what came out of the previous generations. Joseph, you probably would not have eaten your eltere zaide’s food because he had to rely on many kulos which you would not accept. Yet, look at the einekle that he produced, kulos and all.
Will Hill,do you have a b’feirush posek for that statement?
By the way, i don’t say it every time and I’m anything but modern. I just abhor amaratzus from amaratzim.
Joseph says, “the rule is the couple follows the minhugim of the Choson”
Not everything I say is an invitation for controversy. Sometimes I just want to make an observation.
The Rav was giving an eitza tova to avoid machlocas.
The same thing perhaps if it were your minhag to have a “mitzva tantz” for your daughter and not my minhag, so I would have the “tantz” even though it goes against my minhag to b’davka not have one.
The same if I planned to have some wine on the tables and you liked a bar in addition to the wine. Joseph, for you I would spring for the bar.
Joseph, you said “Rosh Yeshiva families with mixed seating and no mechitzas”? Which Rosh Yeshivos?
Until recently, all the foremost Yeshivas had mixed seating at their annual fundraising dinners. And even now they have a few mixed seating tables for family and business associates of large donors. Is there a halachic dispensation for guests of honor?
Think Big:
I hope I understood your question.
Today, there is so much agmas nefesh at weddings and hurt feelings by both machatonim due to differing minhagim. Sometimes the damage is never forgotten or repaired. The main thing is not what happens at the wedding but rather how the choson and callah treat each other afterwards.
For Instance:
Engagement- Erusin
Engagement Ring
Marriage license-Kesuba
The wedding canopy-Chuppa
Bridal flowers; Wedding ring
Throwing rice- A minhag from Talmudic times
Dancing with the bride- Mitzvah tantz
There are others customs, but the point is made. Most holocaust survivors met and married in DP camps without any fanfare or minhagim, and with almost no divorce.
UJM: “Bla, Bla, Bla, Bla”… A bee g’ret
As was just posted on the “Davening with Crocs” blog: You continue to show your amaratzus. Get a Rebbe and get it right
Think Big: “i can’t answer what the purpose of “ure’isem ” would be then.”
“Ure’isem” meant that tzitzes should be worn when you can see them which is during the day, not night.
UJN: You continue to show your amaratzus by repeating over, and over, and over, and over again about the fanciful obsession you have concerning jackets and halacha. Get a Rebbe and get it right.
What do you mean by “shtarke Ger” and “shvache Ger”? Is that like being a little pregnant?
Chazal knew the Ger and knew human psychology. Chazal admonishes us not to bring up the Ger’s past to him because the Ger doesn’t forget those who raised him, and those to whom he owes Hakaras Hatov to, and those he loves, and he doesn’t break ties. Chazal doesn’t expect the Ger to be more than a human being.
Joseph: “but what Zalman said certainly has a factual basis in poiskim”
What Poskim? If you want an exercise in Lamdus, then do the daf.
Or if you want to know what Rabbonim and Poskim do l’maise (in actuality), then you have to see how they “fir zich”, how they determine and advise geyrim with regard to relationships with their families. What’s so difficult, it’s not brain surgery. In fact, when you have a Rav (and everone should), it’s quite easy. This is what Zalman and company does not want to accept.
Think Big,
the point I was making concerning style is that the Rosh Yeshivas wanted to make certain that people would not look down on Yeshiva bochrim because of how they dressed. They needed to be dressed to the “GM” style of the day. I remember it was the same way when I was in Yeshiva, the Rosh Yeshiva having learned in Slabodka under the “Alter”.
By “tzitzis out”, I’m talking about hanging out below the jacket. Today it’s “the longer, the holier”.
Zalman: In case you haven’t noticed there is no halacha necessitating the wearing of a hat and jacket during davening. It is a maila to wear a jacket and hat during sh’mone esrei, the amida, altz kavode before a melech. There is very little else brought down in the s’farim in this regard and for good reason.
I’ve spoken to Rabbonim about this issue and they’ve said that it is plausible to say that just like a tallis is worn instead of a hat for shachris, so to can it be worn instead of a jacket for shachris. Again, they reiterated that “hat and jacket” was a maila, not halacha.
I have personally attended halacha shiurim for many years given by two leading poskim in Flatbush and when this topic was covered in the Mishna B’rura, the above observations were also acknowledged as being held.
Also, if what you are saying is halacha, written in stone, where are the rules in the Shulchan Aruch? We would (and should) not be having this discussion. Is there a special set of rules for those who live in hot climates where jackets are not the minhag to wear during davening? What about before jackets were in existence. Were people not yotze davening?
I know that you would be thrilled to find out that a new halacha seifer (three volumes, over 500 pages each volume) is to be available soon. The first volume deals with hilchos jacket and the next two with hilchos hat.
Zalman: It’s obvious that you have not bothered to read my previous postings or the postings of others which show that Chazal and Rabbonim of different stripes – Chassidik; Misnagdik; Sefardik – and Jewish leaders of great stature, from Moshe Rabeinu until the present time, refute your suppositions regarding geyrim and the kavode due to their families. So lighten up and smile with Hashem’s wonderful people.
matzahlocaol101:
Since you differ with Rav Zev Leff on this issue, I suppose you also differ with all the other poskim and g’dolim regarding this issue. That’s a pretty harsh interpretation on your part.
Regarding your black Ger: Why limit him to a black geyores? Is that fair?
What’s wrong with a white frum from birth Jewess or any other frum Jewess? I’ve seen a number of such marriages with wonderful results. For that matter, I’ve seen successful marriages between a Chinese ger and a frum from birth white Jewess; a Navaho Indian geyores and a frum from birth white Yid and a black geyores and a frum from birth white Yid.
Are your preconceptions showing?
Think BIG: I collect photos of gedolim in their youth and of candid photos of gedolim in a relaxed atmosphere amid their talmidim. You can see many of these on line, such as, Rav Hutner; Rav Shneiur Kotler; Rav Berenbaum; Rav Steinmann; The Alter of Slabodka; Rav Boruch Ber; etc. Did you know that Rav Ruderman wore a grey kapata and Homburg hat in the summer? By the way, I have yet to see these greats or their talmidim wearing their tzizus out so that they are visible.
UJM: There are Poskim to rely upon who hold that a tallis in the morning is the special outer levush for t’fila rather than a jacket. So don’t go bonkers about this. There are plenty of other things you can get riled up about, like people who waste their time posting on the internet and complaining when they should be learning.
Rabbi Schach smoked for many years, but stopped when his doctor told him it was dangerous. In 1984 he issued an isur banning smoking. The Lubavitcher Rebbe Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak Schneersohn was a smoker. It made him ill.
When chazal made a gezeira for leather, or for that matter most other gezeiros, that’s it. We don’t second guess chazal with other chumros. For example, ashkanazi chazal made a gezeira on kitnios on Pesach. Potatoes did not come to Europe until the new world was discovered in the 1400’s. As a result, mustard flour was banned since its similar to flour in consistency but not potato starch since chazal never saw potatoes. And we cannot be more machmir on what chazal was originally gozer.
Another concern of the modern orthodox is that the hat will be blown away by a strong wind (happens all the time) and will cause the carrying of the hat in reshus harabim.
Also, what happens to the requirement of hat when using a tallis for davining in the morning? Do we also see a king with a tallis over our heads?
Let the terutzim role in!
Wearing a stylish hat and jacket is a sign of Kavod for a melech. When you see photos of bochrim in Europe, whether in Mir or Slabodke or other famous yeshivos- they wore the fanciest styles in hats, ties and suits. Never dark. In addition, you never see beards except for the Roshei Hayeshiva.
McCain’s the man.
Don’t forget, Senator John McCain told the Conference of Presidents that he thought Jonathan Pollard should never be released because “he betrayed our nation..”
When it coems to this issue, it’s Bari(McCain) V’shema(Obama).
To: The Big One and Joseph –
Wow, we have people here who are m’chulik with g’dolei and poskei hador. I guess the g’dolim just weren’t aware of The Big One and Joseph’s p’sak din or they never would have advised otherwise.
And I guess we should inform all the Rav Hamachshir on wine that they should not bother with M’vushel since Joseph paskins that a Jew can’t drink wine with a non-Jew.
And it’s too bad that Moshe Rabeinu wasn’t aware of The Big One’s amaratzus or he would have had nothing to do with his father-in-law Yisro.
It seems that the peanut brains ignore our past traditions, ignore the decisions of poskim, and make up their own Torah.
TO UJM and the other “a’bee g’ret” peanut brains: If only you knew what you were talking about. The directives of Rabbonim and Poskim are otherwise.
Mrs. L: How much do you charge and can you start tomorrow?
To Joseph and Big One: Don’t show your ignorance to the multitudes of YWN’s.
Before mouthing off, if you have a Rav who is in the know, speak to him.
Giving honor to in-laws who are not Jewish is a halacha.
By the way, do you skip Parshas Yisro every year, or what?
The current Bobover Rebbe has a talmud who is a ger tzedek. The talmud was a ben bais of the Rebbe and the Rebbe made a wedding for the talmud in the Bobov Bais Hamedresh.
Gantz Bobov came to the wedding, including the goyeshe family of the talmud. On the video you see the Rebbe and chasidim giving kavode to these goyim.
Geirim, children of geirim, and the frum from birth Jews who marry them, are special people. But not everyone is made of the stuff that can handle what is in store for them.
So guys, are you prepared to join the likes of Moshe Rabeinu; Yehoshua; Unkolus; or even the previous leader of Neturei Karta, who all married wonderful women who converted.
There will always be the stigma of “goy” attached to your spouse and there is also the halachic obligation to give “honor” to the goyishe machutanim.
There will be the socializing with the “goyishe” cousins; brothers-in-law; sisters-in-law; aunts and uncles.
There will be “sholom bais” issues regarding visiting.
And your children will also have “shidduch” issues.
But it takes a special person and a special love.
I know.