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Should we destroy all our sifrei torah and replace them with the Yemenite versions, which have a few consonants that are different?
“How about if all the vicious anti-Zionists try to, at least, keep their comments for articles and CR threads that have to do with Israel.”
They can’t control themselves. It isn’t their fault. Pray for them.
Ties are a purely decorative clothing of non-Jewish origin. Is it mutar to wear them?
If I will eat their food in their homes, why not in mine?
“NO one really LOVES to ride subway trains”
I do!
When I was in college in the Boston area I used to ride all the subway lines to the end just to say that I had done them. People used to call me “Charlie on the MTA” in honor of the famous song (which BTW was the real campaign song of a 1940s left wing Boston mayoral candidate who wanted to overturn a fare increase).
There are still a lot of lines in the much larger NYC system I haven’t hit yet.
God had a sense of humor and fixed me up with a California girl who prefers to drive.
The streets in my neighborhood get cleaned every alternate-side day.
“Should I be taking such enjoyment from a movie that was made in 1939, a time that was so horrible for our us in Europe?”
It is a reminder of how Americans were so clueless and disinterested in what was going on across the Atlantic.
You should also see “Gone With the Wind” by the same director, produced in the same year, to see the the sanitized portrayal of chattel slavery.
But also see the 1940 film “The Great Dictator”, a bitter satire of Hitler and the Nazis directed by (and starring) Charlie Chaplin. It was the first anti-Nazi movie made in America (1940) and Chaplin’s first talking picture. Chaplin (who was not Jewish) hated Hitler and the Nazis but he later said that he could not have made a satirical movie had he know how bad things really were. “The Great Dictator” was very popular in the US and the UK and helped increase popular support for the anti-Nazi cause.
Why not a hotel lounge in Brooklyn?
I don’t think a train is at all unreasonable as it is the most practical way to get around NYC, but why the long trip?
I take the subway rather than drive every chance I can. (Among other things, more time to learn torah.) I actually consider myself a bit of a subway buff and love trains! But I married a woman from California who is totally car-oriented and drives everywhere she can. Yet we have been happily married almost six years.
Become vegetarian and don’t drink non-mevushal wine!
“In fact, both myself and my friends can testify that we are not living anything like doctors.”
Most doctors don’t make anything like people think they make. Median income for primary care physicians has been running about $150K/yr.; you can’t easily raise a frum family on that in the NY area. And doctors typically end up with six figure debts from medical school. I personally know doctors who can’t even afford to buy a reasonable co-op apartment in a frum neighborhood.
We are very happy with our two all wheel drive Subarus, especially during last week’s storm.
“My parents taught us not to even touch the muktzah item.”
HaShem told Adam Rishon not to eat the fruit of the tree.
Adam Rishon told Chava not to touch the tree.
Chava touched the tree and nothing happened. So she ate the fruit and something did happen: Humankind fell because of a chumra.
“it is a great thing but overpriced “
Why?
If you think it is overpriced, start manufacturing your own version and sell it for less.
“I cannot comment on Western European Rabbis as I do not know if I am familiar with any. “
Why do you flaunt your ignorance? You think that the entire frum world is charedim from Eastern Europe. Well, it isn’t. There aren’t any significant Jewish communities in Eastern Europe any more.
“I think it is significant that all three rabbis you bring from Eastern Europe are controversial figures in the eyes of a significant portion of the charedi public.”
Not my problem.
BTW the Rema himself was very learned in secular wisdom although he didn’t himself attend university. And during his lifetime, Jews did attend university (mostly in Italy) and he did not object.
” if you did not hear of R’ Lichtenstien, it is purely because of ignorance. I and many others may not follow his halacha, but much like R’ Kook in his time, he definitely is a gadol. “
R’Lichtenstein is in many ways much more traditional than Rav Kook, particularly in his approach to Zionism.
” Two Rishonim opposite the many I brought.”
Not opposite. None of your rishonim asured university — nor any acharon prior to the 19th century.
“Two Rabbis from YU “
I could list hundreds more if you want.
“Two German Rabbonim trying to stem the tide of assimilation opposite most of the rest of the European Rabbonim.”
Rabbis in Western Europe and Italy were also attending university. And some of the rabbis I mentioned were actually from Eastern Europe like Rav Herzog, Rav Soloveitchik, and the Lubavicher Rebbe.
Why do you keep pushing this? Frum Jews have been attending university since the time of the rishonim and will continue to do so, and some of them became gedolim. You aren’t going to convince anyone who isn’t already convinced.
And you still haven’t even begun to explain how the community will survive if there are no Jewish physicians or engineers.
“I was horrified when I read anti-Semitic comments on DailyKos (a shout-out to charliehall) about a story regarding Eric Cantor. “
If it is the comment I’m thinking about, I gave it a hide-rate meaning I thought it should be removed from the site.
I oppose Cantor’s politics, but I share his religion.
“The Torah tends to (mostly) leftist economics and (mostly) rightist social policies. “
I actually see the US going in the opposite direction in both areas.
“what are generally conservative positions are able to cite expicit Torah sources”
I’m not into Limbaugh-bashing although I think his midot are not a model for us. But I’ve also pointed out explicit halachot that are consistent with interventionist government and inconsistent with laissez-faire.
‘Certain ideas in the Torah concur with what the “right” says, and certain ones with what the “left” says. ‘
I agree. The Torah tends to (mostly) leftist economics and (mostly) rightist social policies.
“both China and India would suffer famines by 1985”
Had Deng Xiaoping not overthrown the Gang of Four, there almost certainly would eventually have been mass starvation in China, as there had been under Mao. Mao so much wanted to create a Paradise for the Peasants that he let tens of millions of them die. In the chaos of the Cultural Revolution, a prediction of additional mass starvation in China was quite realistic.
India, however, was a completely different story. There had been a famine in Bihar state in India in the 1960s; government intervention (not laissez-faire!) got food to those who needed it. This repeated in Maharashtra in 1972 and in West Bengal in 1980. The parallel with Yosef HaTzadik is notable — rapid and intelligent governmental action can stop famines. The contrast between the success of the interventionist — almost socialist — Indian government with the repeated horrific famines that the laissez-faire British colonial authorities allowed to take place is stiking. (And it wasn’t just in India — laissez-faire policies were responsible for one eighth of the population of then-British-ruled Ireland starving to death during the 1840s.)
“The closest we’ve come to pure capitalism in the last century was under Greenspan, and the result was the mess we’re in now.”
True. And he was notorious for having been part of the inner circle of the atheist hedonist Ayn Rand. Fortunately by the time he became Fed chairman he no longer followed all of Rand’s policies otherwise we’d REALLY be in the soup.
“And also to provide public works and educational institutions. I am pretty sure this is a d’rabbanan. “
Rabbi Gil Student just put up an essay on his torahmusings site about the obligation to provide and maintain roads.
“in industry, there are alternatives – you can choose to avoid a company or maybe use the competition”
Not in every industry. In how many communities do you have a choice of cable TV carriers? Or electric power delivery?
“But in gov’t there is no where to turn from bad policy.”
Yes, there is — at least in a democracy. You vote them out at the next election.
“You have no choice, short of running to another state or country. “
Please note that I support open borders. The right wingers who comment here generally don’t.
“Because Socialized medicine does’nt pay for good medical care. “
Actually, by objective measures, Israelis are healthier and longer-lived than Americans — while paying far less for health care. The US would have done well to have adopted Israel’s system.
“The socilized economy broughty the country to the brink of collapse.”
Had Israel had a free market economy in the 1950s, hundreds of thousands of Jews would likely have starved to death. And note that none of the religious parties have ever objected to Israel’s welfare state. You folks who say you follow “the gedolim” on everything should note that the religious parties they run are the biggest supporters of Israel’s generous welfare state.
“Even while the world economy declined. Isreal is expieriencing growth. “
Indeed! And a major reason was that Israel has for a long time kept its financial sector highly regulated so that it could not engage in the kinds of legalized gambling that destroyed the US economy. Canada had the same experience. It is the more laissez-faire countries such as the US and Ireland that have been devastated.
The ACLU decides its priorities based on input from its members. If a lot of Second Amendment supporter were to join up, it would probably be more active in that area. But the posters are correct when they note that it rarely intervenes in criminal cases; it doesn’t really have expertise in criminal trials and/or appeals.
“Charlie, just a small point – the Sefer Ha’ikkarim was written by R’ Yosef Albo.”
Good catch! Thank you!!!
“Charlie, did you know that Penzias is a frum yid who worked at Bell Labs in NJ? “
Thanks, I think someone had told me that a long time ago.
“I think Charlie is refering to other Halachos, namely the Tamchuy that every town had to set up to feed the poor.”
Correct. And also to provide public works and educational institutions. I am pretty sure this is a d’rabbanan.
“What is your opinion? “
A government may levy whatever taxes it believes are appropriate. In the past, marginal tax rates in the US were at times as high as 94%.
Yet private sector fortunes were made throughout the 1940s and 1950s with 90% marginal tax rates. That isn’t socialist!
(I’m not advocating a return to 1945 tax levels, but it is clear that high marginal tax rates do not make a society poor.)
‘If you think that supply-side doesn’t work, abolish “free markets.”‘
“Supply side” has been shown repeatedly to work the way its proponents claimed: The government clearly brings in less in taxes when it lowers tax rates. (Duh.)
But more to the point, economists know that free markets are efficient in terms of allocating societal resources only when there is perfect competition and perfect information. They are almost efficient when there is pretty good competition and pretty good information. Today with monopolistic tendencies in many industries, we certainly do NOT have anywhere near close to perfect competition.
Free markets are also efficient only if higher prices result in an increased supply. (This is the real importance of the “supply side” — not the political polemics from the 1980s.) In real estate, health care, and transporation, higher prices do NOT result in increased supply of goods and services. The supply of land is fixed, the supply of health care workers and facilities can increase only very slowly, and it now takes forever to create new transportation infrastructure. Hence free markets don’t work in these areas. Energy infrastructure is probably now in the same category. Another problem is that for real estate, health care, and food, many people simply can’t afford basic necessities. Hence we have government subsidies that distort the markets — but they are essential on a moral level if you don’t want people to be homeless, dying because of lack of medical care, or starving because they are losers in the competitive economy. This is where the Torah breaks with laissez-faire capitalism — we do not stand by while blood is shed! Hence Chazal’s mandate to commual authorities to tax the community to provide for the poor.
In America we desperately try to save the market economy. Hence we have rent controls, Obamacare based on private for-profit insurers rather than a socialist government agency, and food stamps. Israel is smart enough not to try; a government agency owns most of the land in the country and there are no for-profit health insurers.
‘Europe already sees where “semi-socialism” has taken them. ‘
15 of the 20 richest countries in the world are in Europe — and some of the richest have some of the most generous welfare states. See Norway for an example.
‘Capitalism only works well if it’s completely “free markets” and the society has confidence in the system. ‘
One problem today is that American society does NOT have confidence in the system. We assume that the wealthy and influential will plunder everything then use their power to get themselves bailed out. Corporate CEOs squander their stockholders’ equity and get rewarded with huge golden parachutes — and then get nominated (and sometimes elected) to public office.
“Don’t you get tired of this stuff after a while? “
Yes.
“Sefer Ha’ikkarim says, who disagrees with the Rambam”
So did R’Albo.
“It is extremely hard to reconcile our current way of thinking with the cures of Chazal”
See below. We don’t try to reconcile these.
“I believe we are not allowed to do any of the cures mentioned in the gemarah”
This is correct. They had been discarded in terms of refuah l’maaseh by the time of the Gaonim.
There is actually an evolution of scientific understanding as well. 850 years ago, one could have argued that the universe had always existed, or had a beginning; neither was out of bounds scientifically. (Note Rambam’s extensive treatment of this question.) Even 50 years ago this was still an admissible question. But with the discovery of the cosmic microwave background radiation in 1964 (published in 1965), that was no longer the case.
And this was an incredible example of a scientific hypothesis being tested successfully. Theoretical physicists had proven that if there HAD been a “Big Bang”, there would be background radiation all over the universe — and furthermore, the wavelength of the background radiation would indicate the age of the universe. Others had just begun to search for the background radiation when Penzias and Wilson found it by accident.
“It might be necessary for some people- but it is being done at the expense of the Torah.”
The best counter example to this is Rav Lichtenstein. Give him a try — you will need to familiarize yourself with the non-Torah sources he uses to make brilliant Torah points, but the reward will be commensurate with the effort.
“Did all those Rishonim go to university too?”
Totally irrelevant. I’ve *never* said everyone should attend university. You’ve tried to prove university is asur. I’ve disproved that.
If anyone wants to have a discussion about who should attend university, and when, I’m perfectly willing to engage in such a conversation. But I won’t have it with someone who doesn’t accept that it is mutar to do so — there is no point. I’d prefer those folks explain how we are supposed to have physicians, attorneys, and engineers within our communities if secular education is asur. Neither Chazal nor Rambam would have imagined such.
“We do not believe that it Chazal’s ‘science’ requires us to understand greek anything.”
If you understand Chazal’s science you understand Greek science.
Are you familiar with the discussion in Shabat 61 about the efficacy of an amulet? Why did Chazal reject a biblical methodology found in the first chapter of Daniel?
” I’m pretty sure that is part of the point of Chanuka.”
If you actually understand what was going on in Shabat 61, you will understand that is not the case.
“This is called the accident fallacy:
Rabbi Lichtenstein and Rabbi Schachter attended YU
Rabbi Lichtenstein and Rabbi Schachter are gedolim
The YU model clearly produces gedolim.”
Actually it isn’t a fallacy, it is a proof.
And there are some younger rabbis at YU who will likely be considered gedolim in about 20 years.
“I’ve never heard of Rabbi Lichtenstein or Rabbi Tendler.”
I’m sorry you haven’t heard of two of the greatest living rabbis in the world. Their writings and shiurim are easily accessible and I recommend them both.
‘Anyways, charlie is a proud congregant there, and spreads those hashkofos here. That is a point worth “pointing out”. ‘
I’m a member of his synagogue and don’t hide it but I have a different rabbi for shilahs. And as I’ve said, all that is irrelevant to this discussion. I know I’ve won the argument when people start directing *ad hominem* attacks towards me.
“But how many Rav Elyashiv’s and Rav Chaim’s came out? “
YU didn’t exist when Rav Chaim or Rav Elyashiv were the age they would have considered attending YU. But in any case Rav Lichtenstein may well be comparable to Rav Elyashiv despite being decades younger.
Nonsense. Please cite even a single rabbi in the US who paskens halachah l’maaseh that one does not need to pay taxes in the US.
The author of the Tosafos Yom Tov instituted what we would now call a progressive tax system in Prague under which the wealthy were required to pay more. Opponents of this mosered him to the authorities and he was arrested. Whose side would you be on?
“the policy of the torah is to force the rich to support the poor, and that is the same policy endorsed by socialism, shouldn’t I support a socialist agenda “
Forcing the rich to support the poor is not socialism. Rather, socialism is mandating communal (usually governmental) ownership of private property. While Judaism in theory says that no individual really owns anything at all (everything belongs to HaShem), in practice there is in fact a limited right to private property with the exception of land in Eretz Yisrael. While Jabbotinsky may not have been that religious, his idea that the community should be responsible for everyone having the “five mems” –mazon (food), maon (dwelling), malbush (clothing), marpeh (medicine), moreh (teacher) — is quite consistent with Jewish teaching. And neither he nor I am socialist.
“And if you ask a Sefardi, he’ll probably ask, “What’s Yiddish?” Their daily language before/outside of Israel was/is Arabic or Persian. “
Or Ladino, as others have noted.
There are more sefarim in Ladino than in Yiddish. There are more sefarim in Arabic than in Yiddish. There are more sefarim in English than in Yiddish. I’m not anti-Yiddish, but facts are facts.
“charliehall: Haven’t you previously stated you are a congregant of Rabbi Avi Weiss’ synagogue?”
Yes, but I don’t know what that has to do with this thread.
‘ people who were able to achieve greatness in Torah despite their involvement in secular studies are the “ma’aseh satan”‘
Rambam was the ma’aseh satan???? Well, I do recall that people did burn his books.
“it is dangerous for us to pursue it until we are armed and ready with a Torah foundation”
This may well be true! If you look at the many pre-20th century university-educated gedolim I have listed, every single one was a talmid chacham *prior* to embarking on university education. And
19 year olds are indeed very susceptible to the latest intellectual fads and will rationalize almost anything in an try to make it (incorrectly) fit into their worldview. That so many educated frum Jews espouse political and economic philosophies that owe more to Ayn Rand than to Moshe Rabbeinu is one example of this. I personally think most students would do well to wait before embarking on university studies.
However, it should also be pointed out that the YU/Touro/Bar Ilan models have clearly produced gedolim. For example, Rav Schachter and Rav Lichtenstein have undergraduate degrees from YU.
“are you related to mikehall 12345678 “
As far as I know we are not related.
“First, the prohibition is only to learn secular studies as a regular curriculum. “
As the many gedolim who attended university prove, there is no such prohibition.
“we do not make the error of thinking that the secular knowledge that we need is a college education”
Instead we make the error of thinking that we don’t need Jewish physicians, engineers, or scientists. Rambam and Sforno worked as physicians, the Lubavicher Rebbe worked as an engineer, and Rav Herzog discovered the source for techelit.
“you can acquire it only at the expense of your time and effort that you could have been putting toward becoming educated in Olam Habah”
To the contrary, you will understand and appreciate Chazal’s science more if you know something about Greek science. You won’t understand Rambam if you don’t know something about both Aristotle and the Islamic philosophers. You will understand and appreciate Rav Lichtenstein’s torah if you have know about Milton, Blake, and Newman. You will understand Rav Hirsch better if you have heard about Kant and Hegel. And you will not be able to dismiss Rav Tendler if you have a biology background.
Why wouldn’t I?
Counties that have had Jewish heads of government and/or heads of state:
Israel
Italy
France
Austria
Guyana
Singapore
Panama
New Zealand
You can add the United Kingdom to the list if you are willing to count Disraeli, who wasn’t much of a Christian.
There may be others.
“today are breeding grounds of atheism, secularism, militantism, anachorism, and rampant sexual immorality”
Other than promiscuity, I found none of that when I attended Harvard and Johns Hopkins. And I’m not sure that the promiscuity was any greater than in non-college environments among young adults at the same age who are not living at home.
“Although, as I stated in another thread, the Torah doesn’t tax anyone for the sake of charity”
This is a very misleading statement. Chazal mandated that communal authorities levy taxes (that’s right, taxes) for education, public works, and to provide for the poor. That would give it at least the status of a d’rabbanon.
“There’s a famous anecdote “
More like a famous slander.
Why do you put so much energy into bashing Democrats?
“It is common knowledge that there is a strong dispute between Rabbi Soloveithchik and many of the Charedi gedolim of the time.”
It is common knowledge that Rav Soloveitchik was very respected by the charedi gedolim, who made him a member of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah while he was still in his 30s. He was particularly close to R’Hutner who was his classmate at the University of Berlin, to the Lubavicher Rebbe whom he had also met in Berlin, and to R’Kotler who had him speak at the first Chinuch Atzmai fundraising dinner.
(It should be noted that Rav Soloveitchik’s Zionism was very different from that of Rav Kook.)
“It is well known that Germany was a bastion for the enlightenment and some may argue that the rabbonim of the country had to make a horo’as sha’a to keep the remaining Jews frum.”
That is not what Rav Hirsch himself wrote; he clearly stated that secular education was a good thing on its own merits.
“For the most part, the Yeshiva World holds R’ Elyashiv in much higher regard than Rabbi Tendler. “
In the shiurim I attend I hear more halachic opinions attributed to R’Tendler than R’Elyashiv.
“i apologize to charliehall”
accepted 🙂
Eruv isn’t a loophole, it was designed into the law when it was enacted by the rabbis.
In addition to the persons mentioned, some other gedolim who attended university:
Rambam
Sforno
Rav Hildesheimer
Rav Hirsch
Rav Herzog (PhD in Chemistry — in his dissertation research he found the source for techelit)
Rav Soloveitchik (also his wife, both brothers, son, both daughters, and both sons-in-law, all of whom earned doctorates except for his brother who was a lawyer as well as a rosh yeshiva)
I could go on and on but it is late.
My wife drove to work at her clinic yesterday. The roads had been plowed (we both live and work in the Bronx) but although the main roads were clear the side streets had snow on them partly because people would shovel snow back into the plowed streets! As she was looking for a place to park, the two wheel drive car in front of her got stuck on ice. (My wife and I both drive all wheel drive Subarus.) And then, to make matters worse, a Sanitation Dept. truck with a plow pulled up behind both of them.
My wife got out of her car and discovered that the driver of the car in front of her was the other physician at the clinic, another frum woman! The Sanitation Dept. driver got out of his truck and the two of them helped my wife’s colleague get un-stuck. It took the combination of the Sanitation driver banging on the ice with a tire iron to break it up and my wife wielding a snow shovel and walking her colleague through the process of rocking her vehicle from first to reverse and back. That no doubt made the Sanitation driver late for his plowing route but as a result the clinic was able to open and see all its patients!
May we all learn to help one another.
mikehall12382,
Thank you!
I shoveled myself out and went to work.
Actually most of the Bronx seems to have been plowed. We may have received less snow than the rest of the city.
“if ur going to turn to statistics instead of Hashem”
When I was in graduate school, one of my professors was interviewed on the radio about a huge jackpot that the lottery was promoting for its next drawing. He pointed out that were he to walk across the street to buy a ticket, he was far more likely to be struck by an automobile and killed while crossing that street than to purchase the winning ticket.
I’ve heard it said that gambling is a tax on the mathematically-impaired.
“if ur going to turn to statistics instead of Hashem”
The largest association of professional statisticians in the world once held its annual meeting in Las Vegas. Now, most people, when they walk into a casino pick out an interesting game on which to gamble. We statisticians, on the other hand, start calculating expected values in our heads. Realizing that all the expected values favored the house, my colleagues didn’t bother throwing their money away and the casinos lost money on us. Supposedly we were asked never to return and in fact the association has not had its meeting there since.
“Which, seemingly would not apply to buying a lottery ticket, since Chazal were referring to someone whose occupation was gambling, not the occasional gambler. As for the reason given by klach of stealing, as yitayningwut and frumladygit pointed out, there would not be an issue with a lottery ticket.”
This analysis makes sense to me, but I’m not a rabbi so my opinion doesn’t count.