Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
I should mention that I am unfamiliar with ANY of the particular cases that were involved with R’Druckman’s beit din. If a particular beit din has reason, after investigation, to question the conversion and to require a giyur l’chumra, that is within their authority. The problem is the deciding of a case — or, in this case, multiple cases — without investigation. There is nothing in halachah that provides for that.
“hence throwing into question all conversions done by them.”
Still requires an investigation into each and every case. Regardless of the question there is nothing in halachah that permits an *en masse* pasuling of conversions. Must I remind you what Chazal say about a beit din that doesn’t hear from all parties involved before deciding a case? Sorry, but you can’t make up halachah.
And if R’Druckman’s actions were so offensive, why didn’t the charedim take down the government? He was a government appointee and the charedim had the votes. Fortunately the religious judge on the Israeli Supreme Court restored things to proper order.
“the despicable nature of his act”
Solving a mamzer problem is despicable?
“some members of your community spit and taunt 8 year old girls”
I know lots of charedim. Not one would ever imagine that doing that was acceptable, much less mutar! Why didn’t the rabbis say something? The silence was deafening!!!
“Hayek”
Hayek approved of mandatory universal health insurance. Today’s Republicans do not.
“Hareidim, in America, tend to be solid Democrats. Have you noticed which party people like Dov Hikind caucus with? While we are social conservatives, we tend to believe the government should help the poor, and not worry too much about balancing the budget.”
Haredim mostly vote overwhelmingly Republican in national elections; the margins in the haredi areas in Brooklyn resemble those in rural Texas! Assemblyman Hikind is nowhere near as conservative as most of this constituents, and he has the support of another frum Jew, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, to remain a Democrat; as a Republican in the overwhelmingly Democratic New York State Assembly he’d have no ability to help constituents. Perhaps haredim in Brooklyn believe in helping the poor but they vote for candidates who want to reduce such help. And they may be social conservatives but they turned out in overwhelming margins to elect Mike Bloomberg.
“I’m sure the Rav didn’t think that conservative judaism is legitimate.”
He certainly did not. He refused to attend events in Conservative synagogues, and when a conservative rabbi who had been very supportive of his attempts to create the joint beit din with Rabbi Lieberman died, he stood outside the conservative synagogue in the rain to honor the rabbi rather than enter the building lest people think he would honor the Conservative movement.
“Those rabbonim were in contact with Mr. Lieberman only before he went off the derech and became an apikorus by joining the Conservative movement.”
Not true. I have personally seen copies of some of the correspondence between Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l and Rav Lieberman z’tz’l from the 1950s when they were trying to set up a joint beit din across Orthodoxy and the Conservative movement. Interestingly, it was the Conservatives who backed out. The Rav would never have agreed to serve on a beit din with an apikorus!
“the Chief Rabbi is not for the Charedim”
The charedi leaders didn’t think so the last chief rabbi election.
” the guy ran for chief rabbi on a platform that he would be mattir mamzeirim”
No, he ran on a platform to matir one mamzer situation. And any rabbi who doesn’t attempt to do that in every mamzer situation he encounters is no rabbi.
Interestingly, the method he used — pasuling a conversion — caused vehement objections from the same charedim who are pasuling conversions *en masse* today.
“Does anyone use the actual volume of an olive?”
I do.
“Moses Mendelson was Orthodox?”
Mendelssohn’s contemporaries Rabbi Yaakov Emden and Rabbi Akiva Eiger took him seriously as an Orthodox scholar (and argued on his conclusions). After his death people used his name to justify things he would never have endorsed. And he would have been absolutely horrified at the actions of his children after his death.
” Shaul Lieberman?”
His contemporary Rav Hutner tried to recruit him to Chaim Berlin. Another contemporary Rav Soloveitchik was willing to serve on a Beit Din with him, and praised his Tosefta commentary. (Yesterday was his 30th Yahretzeit.)
” Avraham Burg?”
He was Orthodox but he may no longer be.
‘They also require “national service” in lieu of armed service.’
Back when the US had a draft, conscientious objectors did have to do national service at low pay in bad conditions.
Italy used to jail conscientious objectors, until it abolished its draft. Two future popes served in the Italian Army during WW1.
“America DOES give kollel families more financial support (considering food stamps, welfare, wic, section 8, heap, Medicaid, free lifeline cell phone service, head start, etc etc etc) than the pittance of a couple hundred dollars that the Israeli government gives.”
And charedi neighborhoods in America consistently vote in huge numbers for Republican politicians who would end most of those subsidies.
Meanwhile, modern orthodox neighborhoods in America consistently vote in large majorities for Democratic politicians who will raise their taxes.
(Anyone else think this is weird?)
“Is Zionism more important to you than True Torah Judaism?”
Modern Orthodox Religious Zionism is the True Torah Judaism that has been practiced for millenia. Charedi isolationism is a relatively recent phenomenon, just a few hundred years old (and in its extreme forms, rejecting all secular education, only a generation old). And we have been praying for a return to Zion for almost two millenia.
Besides, there is a practical matter: Without the State of Israel, millions of Jews would have nowhere to go. Disappear Medinat Yisrael and we will have another Shoah thanks to the Arab and Iranian rashaim. And you are allying yourself with them.
“They’ve made themselves into a fifth column, and are maybe half a step better than the Arabs when it comes to that.”
This is also over the top. The description fits Neturei Karta, but most charedim won’t have anything to do with NK.
“Chareidim gave Likud the majority in ’77 and ’81, saved Shamir in ’90 even though Peres offered them the better financial deal, and gave Netanyahu his majority in ’96 and ’09.”
Not true for 1977. The government consisted of Likud (45 MKs), DASH (15 MKs), and Mafdal (12 MKs). That’s 72 MKs out of 120. No charedi ministers or deputy ministers. (That was the best showing for religious Zionists until this past election.)
Also not true for 1981. The government consisted of Likud (48 MKs), Mafdal (6 MKs), Tehiya (i.e. Geula Cohen, 3 MKs), Telem (i.e. Moshe Dayan, 2 MKs), and Tami (i.e. Aharon Abuhatzira, 2 MKs). That’s 61 MKs out of 120. No charedi ministers or deputy ministers.
Charedim did save Shamir in 1990 — but he only needed saving because they had supported the only successful no confidence vote in Israel’s history. Charedim gave Rabin his majority in 1992, abandoning Shamir for the second time.
Charedim were indeed the margin that gave Netanyahu his majority in 1996, but Netanyahu had won the popular election and was guaranteed to be PM no matter what. The same thing happened in 1999 when Barak won the popular election and charedim joined the government.
The only time that charedim did make the difference among the elections you listed was 2009.
“I’m calling on the US to let the world give them the title of Apartheid and start to levy sanctions”
This is a truly disgusting comment.
I’ve spent far too much of the past four years countering this exact kind of attitude on left wing internet sites such as dailykos. I expect it from clueless leftists who don’t understand the nature of the Arab and Iranian extremists, or from the rashaim who are out to destroy us all. I don’t expect to see commenters on a frum web site allying themselves with the enemies of the Jewish people.
“The British didn’t write it due to any love of Jews”
Actually, the two most important British leaders at the time — PM David Lloyd-George and FM Arthur Balfour — both fancied themselves as philo-Semites. Lloyd-George in particular seems to have enjoyed thinking of himself as the man who would return Jews to the Holy Land. Winston Churchill also fancied himself a philo-Semite but he had little input into anything at that time.
Also worth noting was that the French PM at the time, Georges Clemenceau, also liked Jews — he was the newspaper publisher who published Emile Zola’s famous “J’Accuse” defense of Dreyfus. He liked the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, too.
“Germany was fighting for survival against just about every superpower in the world”
Not until Hitler y”s was stupid enough to invade the Soviet Union. Had he put resources into the Middle East he could have consolidated control there (remember that Algeria was a part of France, Morocco and Tunisia were French protectorates, Syria and Lebanon were French League of Nations Mandates, and Libya was an Italian colony. Egypt had been independent since 1922 and it was necessary for the British to stage a bloodless coup in 1942 to get a more cooperative government.
“I think the Nazis would have had much more of an incentive to conquer it.”
They wanted to. Had Rommel been given the supplies he wanted, he probably would have — he was Hitler’s best general. Only the British stopping them in Egypt prevented a massacre in Eretz Yisrael.
“do you hear of gedolim who had an elected parliamentary career like R. Druckman”
Rav Hirsch served in the Moravian parliament.
“You don’t seem to have enough respect for talmidei chachomim to grant them the wisdom to decide when it might be necessary to get involved in politics.”
I didn’t say that. They have the right to decide whether the demeaning of Torah is worth the possible gains.
“most Rabbonim in the Torah World Rabbi Tendler is to qoute many “a second rate scientist”
Most charedi rabbonim unfortunately do not have the scientific background to judge Rabbi Dr. Tendler’s science. I do.
“And you should read his psak beis din on the Druckman so-called converts.”
*En masse* pasuling of conversions without hearing each case without any precedent in our history. Chazal says awful things about dayanim who decide cases without hearing all sides, which is what Rav Sherman did. At least the Conservative movement admits that they make up halahchah.
“it cannot be utilized for Eruv Tavshilin, as it is not a cooked food”
The rice is cooked. CYLOR.
“maybe if we Yidden would stop idolizing the Japanese culture we wouldn’t have had problems in Japan with the 3 bochurim”
The Japanese did not turn over Jews to the Nazis. And the Bocherim got caught red-handed smuggling drugs; had it been Singapore they would have received death sentences. They actually got off easily.
” The Jews were redeemed from Egypt because they did not change their unique names, tongue, and clothing. “
However, we did eat similar foods. As Jews have in every country in which we have been exiled. I have a Jewish-Indian cookbook on my shelf. And that is how we got all this Eastern European stuff that people call “heimish”.
“I think it is demeaning (although it wasn’t your intention) to call him a politician.”
I think it is demeaning for rabbis to get involved in politics. And that even includes R’Elyashiv z’tz’l.
“his watered-down, shamelessly pandering to the secular philosophy of the day, stream of so called Judaism”
He hasn’t watered down anything.
“R Moshe Dovid Tendler has referred to him”
That is nothing compared to the despicable name-calling that the charedi community has directed towards Rabbi Dr. Tendler.
“Yeah, he’s got a special place in hell.”
Jews don’t believe in Hell.
“enough to argue with Rav Elyashiv “
Lots of gedolim pasken’d differently from Rav Elyashiv z’tz’l. And that is no demeaning of Rav Elyashiv, it is just that he was one posek and his rulings were generally accepted only by one segment of the frum world.
“clown”
If charedim want respect from the MO and DL communities, they might want to start observing the mitzvot of respect for talmidei chachamim.
“I’m also for the US to stop preventing Israel from being declared Apartheid. It’s time to start with sanctions against Apartheid Israel.”
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that some BDS activist has infiltrated this web site and hijacked your nickname, not that you have joined Neturei Karta.
Rand Paul doesn’t just want to end foreign aid, he wants to bring back pre-WW2 isolationism. If Israel ever gets attacked, he would let it get overrun. And he would do squat to prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons.
He would be a disaster for America, Israel, and the world.
“his piskei halacha were not based on politics, his politics were completely based on halacha.”
I never implied otherwise.
“true clowns like Avi Weiss”
First, he is Rabbi Avi Weiss.
No less a figure than Rabbi Druckman himself has been quoted as complaining that the charedi world doesn’t refer to DL rabbis by the appropriate title. One can disagree with him, but don’t disrespect him.
Second, Rabbi Avi Weiss is someone who has personally brought many Jews to mitzvah observance, and who has constantly spoken out against anti-Semites and others who oppress us, all over the world. Few if any of us can stand in his shoes. If that makes him a clown, may we have many more such clowns.
My rav considered working with the unnamed EJF ex-RY from Monsey who had snookered much of the Charedi world into giving him authority over conversions. He smelled two rats, one that EJF was going to try to convince the non-Jewish spouse of intermarried couples to convert, and that the idea of a single conversion authority was unprecedented. I also personally know someone who DID work with the EJF who had to quit in part because they were converting people who were not ready to keep mitzvot. It is the height of chutzpah for the people who endorsed EJF to complain about Rabbi Druckman!
You are getting off all of Chol HaMoed and you feel like you are being worked “to the last drop”???? I would *volunteer* to work on Sunday in order to get that kind of deal!
See Hilchot Matanot Aniyim.
“hair-covering is technically required by halacha, and is not just a chumra.”
While that is indeed the overwhelming majority opinion, there do exist a few opinions that it is not required.
‘ Rav Elyashiv zt”l was a posek, not a politician.”‘
He also intervened in many political issues on the side of one particular faction, which does make him a politician as well.
I’m unaware of any other source for this, and it isn’t even unanimous among our sources. Josephus reports that under Hyrcanus they were forcibly converted to Judaism; Herod was a descendent of one of those forced converts. Josephus also reports that they fought on the side of the Jews when Titus was besieging Jerusalem. Ibn Ezra accepts that narrative and criticizes those who accept the “Edom = Rome” view.
Turkey has has mandatory military service since early in Ottoman times. Until 1908, Jews were exempted but had to pay a very large tax. Starting with the Young Turks revolution of 1908, all male citizens have been liable for military service, and there is no conscientious objection exemption. (That is the law; I’m not sure about is how strictly the mandatory military service is enforced.)
About as problematic as a Jew celebrating Easter.
“it is a little discomforting to see how a food fad that hits the goyish world seems to have the same appeal and speedy assimilation in the Jewish world”
I’m a lot more discomforted to see Jews eating cheeseburgers. Look, the better and more varied the kosher options, the more Jews will be willing to keep kosher!
While the internet has made Torah more available to more people than at any time in history, it CAN NOT replace a rav. Not for nothing did the sages of the Mishnah write “aseh l’cha rav”, for a good rav can serve as a spiritual guide on halahchic, hashkafic, and life matters. He can help you in knowing when to be machmir and when to be meikel. And he can help insure that you are following a consistent mesorah rather than picking and choosing.
Sushi is probably a lot healthier than the “heimish” cuisine, which as pointed out isn’t Jewish in origin but Eastern European. Japan has the healthiest and longest lived people in the world.
Looks like he may have changed his mind. Rabbis can do that.
People who don’t live in NYC are shocked when they discover how expensive things are here. Salaries in many fields are higher, but not high enough to offset the higher cost of living.
And few employers will recruit from out of the area — why should they, as there are so many good potential employees here. Unless you have really unusual skills in a high demand profession you will probably need to pay your own way to interview here.
There aren’t many inexpensive Jewish neighborhoods in NYC. Try Pelham Parkway or Kingsbridge in the Bronx. The latter is walkable to Riverdale and close to the subway. The former is offering bribes to people to move into the area. So is Mount Vernon, in Westchester county.
Good luck!
“it is openly stated in many places that a real Jewish state must be a Torah-based monarchy”
That is not a unanimous opinion. See Abarbanel for a contrary pov, one that is hard to dispute.
“for the most part the of an elected government was unknown until at least the 1600’s in England.”
Actually a few places — including England — had had elected parliaments before then. Many Italian city-states were Republics. And Switzerland has been a Republic for 700 years.
“Yahadut Hatorah (or UTJ) has never accepted a top level cabinet position. their Gedolim forbid it.”
Not true. Rabbi Yitzhak-Meir Levin served in the first three Israeli cabinets as Welfare Minister. Interestingly for today, he resigned in protest over a national service law for women.
A male cardinal and a female cardinal have taken up residence in my backyard.
“Lapid’s Yesh Atid is the anti-Torah/anti-Chareidi party. “
Two orthodox rabbis got elected to the Knesset on the YA list. A non-orthodox MK from YA turned her maiden Knesset speech into a talmud shiur. Lapid himself wants to put talmud instruction into the government run secular schools.
Meanwhile, the charedi parties accused HaBayit HaYehudi of being a party of gentiles, dissing all the great rabbis who have supported that party and its predecessors. This is motzi shem ra, and people call Yesh Atid anti-Torah? The charedi parties have also threatening to expel Jews from their homes without any peace agreement; even Meretz won’t go that far. Much of the HaBayit HaYehudi vote came from the communities that would be uprooted.
No wonder the charedi parties are losing influence.
“when was the last time you saw a president wearing a colored shirt in any kind of presidential setting?”
Often. Famous recent incidents include President Obama visiting the areas destroyed by storm Sandy, and President Bush giving his speech with the bullhorn after the World Trade Center terrorist attack. Both wore casual colored shirts.
“University education is for a limited amount of time, usually 4 years for a BA, 2 More for a Masters After that you work.”
I now get paid, after earning a PhD, but I’m still constantly learning — keeping up with scientific developments and making small contributions to knowledge.
The difference between yeshiva and university is that in the former we learn what HaShem wants from us and in the latter we learn about HaShem’s creations.
I happened to have heard a talk by a prominent DL educator in EY this weekend. He reported that 30 years ago, half of young people from Dati backgrounds were no longer religious after army service with the exception of those who went to the hesder yeshivot. Some DL leaders realized that this was not acceptable and they started to create special programs to prepare young Datim for army service. This was done without the support of the leading rabbis, but the DL community has never insisted on Daas Torah.
And it worked. Most Dati young people are still religious at the end of their army service. And may stay in the army and make it a career — to the point that some of the seculars are worrying about a religious takeover of the army!
Hopefully the Charedi leaders — and it will take the leaders to get involved — will see this example and follow it. And hopefully the IDF will create more units like Nachal Charedi that will be more comfortable for young people from religious backgrounds.
I also hope that the IDF and the Charedim will both pay more attention to the rulings of the IDF rabbis. There are in fact many kulot that people in the military need to use (similar to doctors), and if you are in the army you should follow the halachic authority of the army. The IDF rabbis are all Orthodox and some have been great talmidei chachamim. And the IDF should accept that if it is to win acceptance among charedim it has to stop forcing unnecessary halachic violations when there is no life or death situation (when of course halachic violations can become mitzvot).