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Since we as frum Jews maintain shomer negiah, with no physical contact prior to marriage, there should be no problem! Shidduch dates outdoors with proper distancing.
And you don’t need anything more than two witnesses (required by halachah), a marriage license from the state (secular law requirement) and an officiant (doesn’t even need to be a rabbi al pi halachah but secular law requires it). As others have suggested, hold the celebration once the pandemic is over.
Good luck.
“there is something very odd with the way his treatment is being ignored in the U.S”
Far from being ignored, it has been promoted like crazy even though there is no real evidence for it.
The truth is that we will never know because Dr. Zelenko did not follow a research protocol. He did not have a comparison group. He decided which patients to treat with what.
” I can find no other studies combining hydroxychloroquine with ZINC. ”
There is one about to get underway at St. Francis Hospital in Roslyn, Long Island. Go to clinicaltrials dot gov to find the information. It is study NCH04370782.
“Is the Zelenko Protocol quack medication? ”
Yes.
“Hydrochloquine and azithromycin are FDA approved medication to treat other sicknesses ”
But not together. There is a specific warning about using them together in the physicians desk reference.
“HHS and Dr Bright work in an executive function, therefore they do NOT work for the people, they work for Donald J Trump, and it is their duty to implement his agenda without question.”
That is false. The mission of the National Institutes of Health is not defined by Donald Trump. It is defined in a law passed by Congress.
“am certainly not going to take your word for it. Or for anything. ”
Fine. Go inject the Clorox if you believe Trump rather than me.
Sweden’s coronavirus death rate is 30% higher than that of the US despite being a less densely populated country. It has almost 3x as many deaths as its three neighbors Finland, Denmark, and Norway despite a smaller population, as those countries did shut down.
Sweden has a socialist government — rare for Europe these days. Proof that leftists can be as stupid as Trump.
“It sure took you a LONG Time to find this Recommendation!”
I have more important things to do than answer questions in coffee rooms. Among other things, I am involved one way or another in FIVE current or proposed COVID-19 studies. I had not been in this chat for five days.
And regarding the ATS guidelines, you failed to note two things. First, you neglected the following:
For patients with COVID‐19 who are well‐enough to be managed as outpatients, we make no suggestion either for or against hydroxychloroquine (or chloroquine). 18% for intervention, 36% no suggestion, and 46% against intervention.
For hospitalized patients with COVID‐19 who have no evidence of pneumonia, we make no suggestion either for or against hydroxychloroquine (or chloroquine). 8% for intervention, 50% no suggestion, and 42% against intervention.
You also failed to note that those recommendations are dated April 3 and do not reflect updated knowledge.
Pretty horrifying that commenters here are discounting the risk to the elderly.
My wife is a family physician. Still seeing patients in clinic. Here is what her professional association, the American Academy of Family Physicians, says:
The American Academy of Family Physicians, which represents 134,600 members, acknowledges the pressures facing the healthcare system to rapidly address the COVID-19 pandemic through testing, treatment, and preventive measures.
The AAFP urges caution as no medication has been approved by the FDA for use in patients who have COVID-19. Further, there is currently no substantial evidence supporting the off-label use of medications, such as chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, and remdesivir for the treatment of COVID-19. While there have been limited studies performed, with varying degrees of success, the data do not support improved patient-oriented outcomes with these medications. Until further testing is completed, the AAFP cautions against prescribing these medications outside of their current indicated uses.
In addition, the AAFP advises against these medications being stockpiled or prescribed as a preventive measure for the public at large. Family physicians should continue to provide these medications for conditions where there are approved indications, such as for patients who have autoimmune disorders or parasitic infections and should not be penalized for doing so.
The AAFP also supports the rapid evaluation of potential treatments through registered clinical trials and calls for the publications of full results in a transparent and timely manner.
The AAFP calls for clinicians, healthcare systems, and policy makers to carefully consider the evidence and effectively weigh the benefits and the harms of any treatment. Given the increased burden on the healthcare system at this time, judicious and evidence-based use of limited resources is even more critical.
Kurt Eichenwald (Jewish father, non-Jewish mother) just accurately pointed out that much of the country — not just Jews — are resentful at having to put up with inconveniences that are nothing to what our parents and grandparents had to put up with during World War II — and he was talking about those who were safe in America, not those facing genocide in Europe.
We will get through this. If we continue to prevent the spread of the virus most of us will survive long enough to benefit from the vaccine that will come. The economy will rebound quite quickly, as it did after the H1N1 pandemic — as long as the government doesn’t continue stupid policies like trade wars. Our infrastructure is not bombed out like much of Europe after the world wars; the loss of life, while large, will not be anything like the 1940s; and pent up demand from being confined to home will be a huge boost to many industries.
All difficult times are opportunities for self-reflection. This has been a consistent Jewish theme since the time of Chazal — really since the time of the Naviim! We can appreciate that which Hashem has gifted us and share with those less well off.
Current Infectious Diseases Society of America Recommendations:
Recommendation 1. Among patients who have been admitted to the hospital with COVID-19, the IDSA guideline panel recommends hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine in the context of a clinical trial. (Knowledge gap)
Recommendation 2. Among patients who have been admitted to the hospital with COVID-19, the IDSA guideline panel recommends hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine plus azithromycin only in the context of a clinical trial. (Knowledge gap)“Bright was fired for incompetence”
He wasn’t fired, he was reassigned. And he is definitely not incompetent, unlike most of Trump’s Administration.
“Thx for the support.”
You are welcome!
“Could be bc of hydro or maybe she was going to get better anyway.”
And that is precisely why we need proper randomized studies that are large enough to see whether HCQ is better that just letting people get well on their own. The people who are prescribing HCQ other than in the context of a clinical trial are delaying the time when we will know whether it works or not.
“The HHS works for the president. ”
That is not true at all. HHS works for the American people, fulfilling mandates from Congress as enacted into law. Dr. Bright does not work for the President. He works for all of us. The US is not a monarchy and Trump is not a King. Note that Trump can’t even fire Dr. Bright, only reassign him from where he is needed to somewhere else.
How many people need to die for you to stop drinking the Kool Aid?
It is mutar to shave on other days????
I actually AM a professional in public health. The evidence for hydroxychloroquine is anecdotal. There are many clinical trials underway. Physicians who want to give it to their patients should enroll them into one of them. That is the only way we will learn the truth.
It is extremely irresponsible not to have life insurance if you have obligations (such as a mortgage) that will continue after your death, or if you have minor children who depend on your income. Group term insurance is less expensive than individual policies and every employer should offer them.
The Veterans study reported in the media is also not definitive. We need information from randomized clinical trials. Physicians should not be prescribing HCQ for COVID-19 except as part of a rigorous randomized clinical trial protocol. And there are many out there.
It is very clear that Trump wants to have all the powers of an absolute monarch and that he has packed the courts with judges who won’t stop him. There are only two bits of good news here. One is that he isn’t smart enough to pull that off. The second is that we can replace him with Biden this fall.
It is a very American prayer, probably the first contribution of the American diaspora to Judaism. It was definitely in use in 1789 and it was originally in English.
Not a fan of Sanders but he is not a communist and he is not a member of any party.
Calling him a communist desecrates the memory of the victims of real communists.
There are certainly true Americans — the indigenous peoples whom European illegal immigrants murdered in large numbers.
The animals are the racists who are commenting in this thread.
Even better, start a clinical trial on patients who look like yours. Or, even better, get them to join one of the existing clinical trials.
” someone else reading your comments may think that there is not proven -even anecdotally- that it works. Which is not true, because Hydroxychloroquine has been shown to help prevent at risk patients from ending up in the hospital.”
No, it has NOT been proven that it works at all. And it is known to have serious potential for harm. Until the larger clinical trials are completed we do not have evidence that it is efficacious. (And most of the smaller studies that have reported findings so far do not show cause for optimism.
“the probability of Zelenko just getting luck is extremely low”
Actually you can’t say that because he is not giving the drug as a part of a controlled research protocol. It is absolutely impossible to estimate the efficacy of a drug from a case series. My first year medical students learn that.
“Wang et al reported that chloroquine effectively inhibits SARS-CoV-2 in vitro.”
Lots of drugs work in vitro and are either useless or even dangerous when given to humans.
“Do you read scientific articles from others, besides yourself?!?”
Part of my professional responsibilities is to critique scientific articles by others. I have reviewed for dozens of medical journals including some of the most famous. I also critique scientific study proposals for the National Institutes of health. I have been doing this for many years.
Where in Chosen Mishpat is a corporation defined?
Wilson wanted Germany treated more leniently than did Lloyd-George or Clemenceau. Especially Clemenceau. Who was the greatest friend Jews had ever had in France. Intentions aren’t enough.
Oh, and anyone who thinks Wilson was the worst President ever flunked American history. His successor, Harding, was far worse.
Cancelling the US national debt would destroy the US economy, permanently.
Buchanan was clearly the worst President ever by most standards — he precipitated the Civil War! If you are concerned about genocide you would rank Andrew Jackson as the worst. Wilson was actually more successful than most; he got the US a central bank for the first time in almost 80 years, he reversed over 50 years of destructive trade policies, he enacted the first income tax, he had his son in law save the US economy from Depression at the beginning of World War I, and he successfully managed the successful war effort. Since the Civil War, there are a number of Presidents who were clearly worse than Wilson: Andrew Johnson, Grant, Harding, and Hoover for certain and probably Trump unless he pulls off a miracle and stops the coronavirus. Note that Trump’s favorite President is Jackson.
“Doctors and nurses performing such procedures do not have proper PPE and putting their lives at risk.”
Judaism does NOT require you to sacrifice your own life to save another.
We who are not on the front lines risking our lives have no business questioning anyone who is.
I second realicleardaf and Rabbi Elefant. Good luck!!!
ipchamistabra,
This is not the time nor the place to spread such sinat chinam. There are plenty of orthodox and orthodox-friendly Birthright trips. The Orthodox Union even sponsors some! In addition, some of the greatest rabbis of the modern era have been Religious Zionists.
Markiplier,
I am also a ger. (I grew up Protestant.) While there are plenty of judgemental Jews, communities I have visited do not judge me and I have never not been accepted as a Jew by any orthodox community and I travel a lot! Israel, France, Ireland, three provinces in Canada, and at least a dozen states in the US — there has never been an issue. And in my own community you can’t tell the FFBs from the BTs from the gerim.
It is easy to compare yourself to others who have had the benefit of a yeshiva background and think that your knowledge will never match up to theirs. But you aren’t judged by HaShem compared to others, but to what you can do.
And as both a Ger and a BT you have been where few of us have been and can contribute YOUR experience to others. Find the right community and the right rav, throw yourself into Torah and mitzvot, and you will be fully part of our world. Welcome back!!!
“you claim to be a Medical Researcher?!?”
Yes, I am. I am a Professor of Epidemiology and Population Health with a PhD in Biostatistics. I regularly review grant applications for the National Institutes of Health. I serve on my institution’s Institutional Review Board for the protection of the well-being of participants in research studies. I serve on multiple Data Safety Monitoring Committees to protect the well-being of participants in clinical trials. I have over 170 scientific publications and have been Principal Investigator on multiple research projects. I regularly review scientific manuscripts for methodological soundness. I know what I am talking about. Trump, Giuliani, and Navarro don’t. The first year medical students I teach know more about this than they do.
Okay, I have given you my credentials. What are yours? How many scientific publications do you have?
Any my own expertise is dwarfed by that of Dr. Fauci. My understanding if infectious disease is to his like an good shul rabbi’s Torah knowledge is to that of Rabbi Hershel Schachter.
Do you publicly contradict your own shul’s rabbi when he paskens halachah? Or the gedol that your own rav follows? That is the level of arrogance here. We are supposed to be removing the chametz not just from our homes but from our attitudes.
Maybe hydroxychloroquine will have some effect on the coronavirus. The way to learn that is in clinical trials that are underway. Go sign up for one for which you qualify! Clinicaltrials dot gov.
Hydroxychloroquine was brought to the attention of Trump by a French fraudster who published a totally flawed study in a journal controlled by someone who works for him after a one day peer review. The flaws were so pronounced that any of my first year medical students would have found them. Hydroxychloroquine has known serious side effects, including blindness. Used with azithromycin it can cause your heart to stop. A small but properly designed study in China found no effect of hydroxychloroquine on COVID-19.
Basically there is no evidence that it works and it is known to be potentially dangerous. Any doctor who wants to use it needs to become a clinical trial site so that we can properly determine whether it works or not — there are a lot of such trials underway. Meanwhile, the patients who REALLY need this drug — patients with lupus or rheumatoid arthritis — can’t get it. Oh, and the sickest patients can’t take hydroxychloroquine because it is only available as an oral medication. Thus it is to be expected that patients who take it have better outcomes — they aren’t as sick when they start!
Trump is completely irresponsible in promoting a potentially dangerous and untested drug combination. His flunkie Peter Navarro does not understand how to read and critique a clinical research study. Rudy Giuliani has in the past made a sufficiently ignorant statement about healthcare that I use it to teach medical students about how one can misunderstand certain types of bias in observational data and his promotion of these unapproved drugs sadly gives me more material.
There are far more promising treatments being tested now.
“More Americans are now employed than ever recorded before in our history.”
This didn’t age well. Almost ten million newly unemployed in the last two weeks.
“Almost 4 million jobs created since election.”
3.3 million of those jobs disappeared LAST WEEK.
“Record number of regulations eliminated.”
He refused to waive regulations on the one thing that mattered: Coronavirus testing. As a result, we are in the situation we are in now. (It didn’t help that he and other Republicans like to the American people regarding what they were told about the seriousness of the problem.)
“Withdrew from the horrible, one-sided Iran Deal”
And as a result of his withdrawal, Iran now has enough uranium to build a bomb. Probably the only thing preventing them from doing so is the coronavirus.
“Concluded a historic U.S.-Mexico Trade Deal to replace NAFTA”
It is indeed a good deal but it was Nancy Pelosi who made the deal what it is!
“Imposed tariffs on foreign steel and aluminum to protect our national security.”
An error that is costing us immensely. His steel tariffs were higher than the ones in the Smoot-Hawley law signed by Herbert Hoover that led directly to the Great Depression, the Nazi rise to power, World War II, and the Shoah.
I could go on, but I will add that his total bungling of the COVID-19 pandemic alone makes him the worst President since James Buchanan. The economy (which is all most conservatives seem to care about now) has been trashed and Americans are dying in droves.
The lack of tests, the lack of personal protective equipment for health care workers, the lack of ventilators, the unwillingness to shut down activity until this has passed, he insistence by some people (including far too many supposedly frum Jews) to follow proper precautions, and the incompetence and venality of the President of the US has led to this.
We could have been like South Korea but we are about to be like Italy.
That isn’t true. He described some of the people who marched with the Nazis in Charlottesville as “very fine people”. And even earlier he had made the singular accomplishment of uniting David Duke with Louis Farrakhan — both of them supported him during his Presidential campaign!
“do you really think he would use his office to further his own ambition, putting self above country?”
Yes. There is absolutely no doubt about that, as we see with the COVID-19 pandemic.
“The economy is doing well.”
Well that didn’t age well!
Working as hard as I ever have in my career.
Cooking for Shabbat.
Completing Yerushalmi Berachot so that I and other firstborns don’t have to fast erev Shabbat. (I am in the last chapter now.)
Indeed we do not know of an effective treatment for COVID-19 today. All evidence is anecdotal only. Some people who don’t understand what they are talking about are promoting a flawed French study of hydroxychloroquine. But a much better Chinese study found that it didn’t help. Nevertheless the Chinese study was small so clinical trials are underway. Similarly, there are clinical trials of other possible treatments and also of a possible vaccine.
You can find the clinical trials at clinicaltrials dot gov. Pray for their success and STAY HOME.
I am working from home and I have never been so busy. I am involved in two projects trying to address COVID-19.
STAY AT HOME. Your live and the lives of others may depend on it.
There are three situations when praying at home might be preferable.
One is when the minyan is so unruly that one cannot concentrate on tefillah. Once in my life I have had to walk out on a “minyan” like that. There was so much talking that I am not sure that there were ten people actually praying.
The second is that there are opinions that praying at the ideal time — right at sunrise for Shacharit — is preferable even without a minyan. I am not up to that level.
The third is a situation like today when it risks peoples lives. May we all get through this and never experience such a situation again.
I have indeed found that I can concentrate better.
We are going to run out of ICU capacity and ventilators soon. At that point we will look like Italy. It won’t be possible to bury people instead they will be cremated, chas v’shalom.
Ignore all the people who claim this is a hoax or just the flu or can be cured with chloroquine. (Maybe chloroquine helps but we won’t know for some time.) STAY HOME!!!
Do not congregate for them.
Weddings should be done with a rabbi, the couple, and two kosher eidim. No more. Schedule the celebration for the one year anniversary. Brit milah only requires the mohel and the baby.