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@Amil Zola,
NYC is the financial capital of the world with some of the largest insurers and highest pays. i know for a fact that your info on actuaries are exaggerated somewhat unless you are star that knocks off exams 123. But thats beside the point.
The key question is, about the careers you quote where you start at $90K . Why is that worth it when i can earn 150K in jewnvierse? or when i can earn $50K in jewniverse but get another 50K net in handouts?
@Amil Zola,
Actuaries do not start at 100K. I have many friends who are actuaries. They start more at $80K on average (Only a bit more than accounting). In order to earn 150K they need to become either an FSA on the Life side, which means passing 10 very tough exams or an ACAS on the causality side and pass 6 very tough exams. it take smore than 2 years unless you are a super star. And i refer to the greater NYC area which is almost the highest pay. One can work in consulting and slave away at 60 hours a week i suppose. But even there it will take about 5 years to make 150K.
Data jobs and program analysts perhaps start at 90K but only rise by say 3% a year.
And the point is what’s $90K worth when you can get $50K net in programs
Re relocation , in this remote world that’s less of an issueThe real issue you need to address is why slave away at a college educated job when you can at minimum earn the same without it and usually you can start off earning more? Even if you earn less, you get so many govt programs that why sweat? It seems to be only worth it once you exceed the 150k mark. I don’t see so many of the career paths listed above exceeding that.
This is a new phenoionim . it used to be that you can’t earn much more than B&H like job at 50K in the frum world.All the other benefits you mention are nice. I’ll also add that min corporate generally if you get laid off you have 60 day notice plus severance. At a frum place its often just goodbye and then no paransa. But none of those benefits are that alluring to people when the base salary isn’t higher.
You also touch upon a good discussion re a secular HS education. But today so many get into PCS like classes in accounting social work and a slew of other fields without it. They also don’t pursue a career till 5-10 years down the line after HS. I just don’t see its contribution to paransa the same as it used to be. There are other benefits to a HS secular education but from a paransa standpoint this whole idea of college just doesn’t to add up mathematically.
@Always_Ask_Questions,
Disclaimer i am kind of tuned into this today purely bec I need a distraction from the sad news of which i didn’t sleep from last night.
So exactly what college educated occupation offers a staring salary (or at least 2 -3 years in ) of $150,000 and doesn’t require an IVY league education. You can’t expect the masses to attend Harvard. Lets say it isn’t accounting then what is it? (I can tell you that it isn’t data science either. I dabble in that and its not as lucrative as they sell it to be) Do you buy into the AI bubble? (to me it sounds like the zoom and Peleton bubble)
Nursing homes by the way just require 6 months of training. But I don’t want to get stuck just on that. Today you have people manging warehouses, amazon sellers, marketing all flavors, real estate and property management etc. These guys are all making 150K after 2-3 years. Will all this stick? Who knows? There is a video out there from Freda Vizel (a former chasdish jew but now secular) who i thought put it down nicely. We kind of built our own economic society where jewish commerce is nearly self sustaining from within.
Ill bring up yet another mathematical point. It almost doesn’t pay to work in a field paying 100K gross bec of govt programs. if you sum up the value of medicad, Snap. wic, free child care, earned income credits etc it adds up to well over 50K in net income. It really doesn’t pay to earn less than 150K Gross because then you’ll lose all those goodies. Now may be altruistic and say its wrong on so many levels to take govt handouts. But when the math is so compelling its hard to tell others that they should just live altruistic lives unless its clearly assur in the torah.@Amil Zola,
You make a valid point but realize that we don’t live in a shell. This is a viral and interactive community. You may be strong and have the right hashkafa. But your children see things and notices it. They can’t live in a vacuum. The growing ostentatious lifestyle is addictive and alluring.
@Always_Ask_Questions, what about a full time job in accounting? You also assume everyone is smart enough for Columbia which tough. I don’t know if you can post links but google Why No One’s Going Into Accounting WSJ. It basically doesn’t make mathematical sense to get a degree any more. What for? any decent nursing home administrator gets 150K after 2 years in while accounting gets maybe 90k if lucky. And it isn’t just nusring homes, its so many other frum jobs. Show me the math and path toward a decent paying college educated job that matches up.Lakewhut,
Well it goes two ways. What does it mean to be hiemish? I see many who’d never do a shidduch with an “American”. But if they have money they become hiemsh and shidduch worthy with the finest@gadolhador firstly Orlando pesach is expensive since irs spring break. It’s usually upwards of $200 a ticket plus lodging . Now this sukkos was a bargain with $54 tickets. But still the cost of a place plus amenities etc. it all adds up. I can’t talk for most yidden and it isn’t just the $500 steaks. I will say that many especially younger ones are spending alot a lot of money on fads.
@always_ask _questions, it’s very hard nowadays to make a living with professional jobs. Their salaries haven’t kept pace with true inflation of at least 25% higher pay on a net basis. That’s 40% on the top.(Gross)
Plus student debt is nuts. Nowadays our own frum economy got so large that we have almost our own system. P.S. I work as a professional@ctlawyer
There are definitely way too many people following the Joneses and living a lifestyle they can’t afford. I am assuming that you live in CT. But if you’d only see what’s going on in “in town” communities, it is ostentatious beyond any belief. Way too many people are going to Orlando than can afford. The restaurants that are now $500 a plate is insane. People go to say they went and not because they can always afford it.
Now what’s wrong if you can afford it? There is a lot wrong with these out of hand spending.
1) it creates peer pressure
2) you ever thought about what it does to the next generation even if parents aren’t the ones following the Jones’s? And the next generation goal is to be the next billionaire because this lifestyle with private jets etc. There is no way to shield your kids from seeing this and it becomes their goal
3) Are you really thinking about Hashem when you go on live this kind of lifestyle? There is so much prikas oyl.I don’t Care how much tzedaka you give. This Outlandish lifestyle is disgusting and it’s corrupting so many people.
@ always_ask_a_question;
Where exactly can you borrow at 2% now? And you assume housing will go up. That’s true in the long term but what if you need to pay those bills next year? Who says it won’t collapse by then?
@Demoshe, I can’t question a personal decision. I just hope that you had a good reason to jump into buying new house. Many jumped simply during the covid gold rush in h a hast to follow the joneses and live more lavishly with a pool, and nice yard etc. They forgot that their “old” townhouse had a basement rental too and life was affordable. After all rates are at 3% and we are all getting stimulus plus PPP. Everything we invest in turned into gold , henceforth the inflation fueling. Now that kind of lifestyle begins to bite us. To be clear, I don’t mean you per say and I am sure you had a need.
I do agree that there is a crisis for the new generation now. This is something that has happened in 20 years as there are no townhouses for cheap either.
@sacts,
The idea of medicare for all is a noble idea but when you get down into the weeds it doesn’t make sense from a quantitive nor a qualitative perspective.
Lets start with quantitative;
1) Medicare does not cover long term health. There is a good reason for that. It cost too much money and is unaffordable. Are you OK withy gutting that out of medicad which does cover LTC now.
2) Medicare doesn’t cover dental
3) There is a limit on OT and PT services. If you look at how much therapy children receive from early childhood to speech to OT to PT. And if CVS special needs even more. Who pays for all that under “medicare for all”? Right now most of that isn’t covered under medicare albeit its for seniors but you get my idea.
4) Medicare charges copays and premiums for many seniors. Can we do that under your Medicare for all?
Now lets talk about quality,
Our medical care is second to none and the envy of the world. Look at how many people collect in shul for a yid from EY who needs to be in the USA for medical care. This is because drs can charge high fees and make money. Its a business and drs who work hard need to be incentivized so they are rich. The same is for hospital ceo’s who build up start of the art facilities to provide high quality care. Many dr’s now don’t take medicare, under medicare for all, where prices will be negotiated down even more, you think they will accept it? And if they do we will look like Canada and the UK where lines for hip replacements are 6 months. And only the rich get better care via cash.To summarize our standard of health care is so vast and expensive. We have very high demands and everything is a must. Therapy, mental health, LTC, dental all of that isn’t covered in Israel or other single payer systems. Neither do they have the ability to sue like here. We also have state of the art care that’s at least accessible to middle class thanks to private insurance. if your proposal is, something like emergency care for all, limited to hospital care etc. then I think that’s noble. But without severely fiddling around with the current system, its impossible to pay for all of this without compromising on quality or quantity of care.
As a side note, you left out one very important fact about the ACA. Sure it forced (or at least its idea was to force) those uninsured to get insurance thereby yes they pay more but its to their benefit. However, they weren’t the only ones who suffered a loss. It also forced those who are responsible and have health insurance already to pay more for all those irresponsible who now need to be covered with pre existing conditions too.
One more side note (and I agree this one is somewhat off topic) the idea that we need to cover the poor under medicad no matter what their behavior toward self care is a huge chutzpah and absurd. At my job if you smoke they charge you an extra $1K. And everyone has to partake in a work on wellness program or you pay another $1K. The fact that medicad holds no bounds and that you can be a fat smoker who drinks all day too makes the sense of entitlement such nerve. Medicad ought to charge if you smoke and obligate everyone to commit to work on wellness.
@damoshe,
Tuition is tricky. In communities like Lakewood and chasidish communities it isn’t more than when we grew up in Brooklyn comparatively. (I am not counting girls seminary which is out of control)
Housing is an issue and you got me there.
Re cars, there are always some that need two cars. But firstly if you live in a city like Brooklyn, even with his working parents, there is always the city bus and subway. It’s how we grew up. Even if you live in Lakewood or monsey you’ll be surprised how much you can make do with things close by and one car. It’s almost a city . Wife can drive the husband on way to her work etc. Work is much mire remote now and one spouse probably works part time at home. I am not saying it can work for everyone. But you’ll be surprised what can happen if you realize we don’t need everything that we even call a necessity.
Housing did stump me as that’s an issue and I thank hashem I bought ten years ago. But I’ll just say my mother ah always reminded me how she bought a house in the early 70s with interest rates at 10% and hyperinflation. Lines for gas were blocks long. She use to tell me how she baked stuff that didn’t need egg’s because eggs were so high . I laughed at her till eggs were $7 last year. Things weren’t always so easy then but the difference is like my mother people knew to do more with less. We are more spoiled now@CT Lawyer
Thanks for that clarity. So it sounds like you are saying in a nutshell that based on your internal polling right now, swing districts aren’t switching back over to trump (Sort of Trump to Biden to back to Trump).
I am curious why Nat Silver keeps on making it a tie. But I suppose that’s due to simple enthusiasm. He isn’t narrowly focused on swing districts like you are. I do think some swing voters feel like you and don’t think trump should be indicted but I guess that doesn’t mean we want trump as president.
I’ll pop yet another hypothetical question, if trump loses and is found guilty and sent to jail does that put an end to this Trump craziness? Can we return to substantive debates and sides of the aisle? Good old debates if reganomics work or LBJ works? I’d even add yes a modern day touch like school choice and kind of the culture wars there (pro vs anti LGBT) but in a civil discourse and respectful manner? Is there hope for that? (I am actually pro a kind of “Desantis lite” approach with being a little less provactive. At least he is a moral human)
Side note, I think if trump goes to jail that makes him a maryter and it will tear apart this country in ways you can’t imagine. i hope they are smart enough to do what Arik did to Arafat. Place him under house arrest in Maro lago and block his twitter!@Ct Lawyer,
I am still curious what data or evidence have you seen that tells you trump won’t game the electoral college again and win? How can you know that?Here is yet another “idea”.
Realize that you don’t need many of the things you bought. Look at how they live in EY. Do you really need two cars when the cost of a new car is astronomical? When “zaidy” was young in the 1980’s and 1990’s many families had one car. Can you really not manage that way? Its OK to fargin an Uber when stuck. its still much cheaper than two cars. Do we really need to go out to eat so much etc.
I am not even talking about the Orlando, fancy houses, trips to Europe, EY and Cancun, fancy meat boards etc.
I know everyone does this and its “nerdy” not to spend on the above. Its like king nerd to have one car and CVS use a car service. But get real and grow up.@CT Lawyer;
I am just narrowly focusing on this piece that you wrote;
“In 2016 It was my opinion that the country was deeply divided and it would be close. Clinton won the popular vote ( including mine) but Trump’s election strategy allowed him to take the Electoral College majority and become President.”Why won’t that work again in 2024?
To be clear, I too disdain Trump (although i am staunch supporter of a Trump plus candidate like Desantis). I also think he is guilty and much more corrupt than Nixon. I also think Nixon, at least till he got drunk and depressed, knew what he did was wrong. trump has some kind of mental illness where he only believes what he wants. I think the Smith indictments are mostly wrong because the fact that experts proved he lost means nothing to a mentally ill person. Go try to reason with your 6 year old having tantrum.(This is my defense of him but also damming and telling why he can’t be POTUS). The inly guilty thing I found was that if you even if you are right you can’t take the law into your hands and appoint fake electors. But the intent just isn’t there. Anyhow this is a side tangent.
My key question is what makes 2024 different than 2016? Are we less split now? Is Biden more likable than Hillary? you say I have learned to read, observe, digest and analyze. What’s your basis?
(P.S. side note re ACA as a corporate employee, I’d say premiums rose thanks to ACA and pre existing conditions rules but not to unaffordable levels. So its very hard to know if a small sacrifice was worth it)
@ CT Lawyer,
Under what basis are you saying the below? what makes you predict that? Just curious how one can predict anything at all? And I am curious what you predicted in 2016? Is your basis because you think Trump will be found guilty in court by Nov 2024? Will that really change voters minds? i am just curious where you prediction comes from?
Election in Nov. 2024
The Democratic nomineeBy the way I am not a fan of Trump either. But I am a realist and just because I am a never trumper (at least for 2024) that doesn’t mean that I’d even predict he losses
@CTL how can you say with certainty Biden wins in Nov 24? 538 has Trump and Biden at a tie right now. Nat silver isn’t exactly a conservative. I am not saying Trump will win nor do I want him to win but we simply don’t know. He may win.
Rabbi A Miller Z”L use to say stay married and continue (Of course not fighting but continue together he would quip.) He had very harsh words to say about divorce just because you can’t get along. Now I don’t know what he would say about mental illness or CVS any top of abuse. And nothing is a cardinal rule. From the tone of your question though, it sounds like it isn’t extreme to the point of abuse. Rabbi A Miller ZL is the torah way.
By the way most of our holocaust grandparents were not that compatible and many fought. But they knew you need to tough it out and hold it together.
@shimon I still don’t see why Orlando is vidas zenus. It’s kosher family fun like anything else. If you mean because it’s a hang out, then ein ldavar sof. Many Cholom hamoed trips are that too . Many simchas or kiddishim have hang outs. There are bigger averous.
@shimon, who says Orlando is a place of zenus? There are houses with private pools and amusement parks just like six flags here in the greater Nyc. It isn’t even a beach town.
AviraDeArah,
I have news for you. European jewery was the same way. My hungarain grandmother had shortsleeves and went to Public school too. My grandfather went to work at like 14 and barely knew how to read gemara. yet they were super erhlich despite being “MO” although they davened in an oberlender shul.Furthermore, 75 years ago there were plenty of yeshivas in the NYC area. And yes plenty chashuvim went to yitzchok elchanon.
I don’t know about Josephus, I mean we do know that the jews didn’t listen to chazal much during Josephus time nebach either. (look at the baryanim and all the others, then corrupt Kohen gadol etc.) But thats history. pre war Europe and the USA nobody aside for chasidim really had a thing to ask “das torah” every move. This is a new thing.
PS I don’t suggest that all this change is bad. its beautiful to be better jews. But don’t make it sound like MO is some kind of reform movement. They aren’t open orthdoxy CVS.
75 years ago in the USA, almost every orthodox jew was really MO. Women didn’t cover their hair unless in shul, they wore short sleeves everybody hate cholov stam, nobody learned in kolel, everybody went to college and work, all had secular names, mixed seating by simchas (aguda convention use to have mixed seating) no shtreimels or beards etc. The world moved more to the right as the years passed. The MO believes if it was frum enough for 75 years ago its Ok now too.
Side note, the idea that a rav is someone who i ask anything more than halchaha aka das torah is also a new phenomenon that started roughly with R chaim ozer Z’l. The idea of das torah in litfisha circles is new. It used to be that you just worried about halchaha. (The chasam sofer and hungarain jewry had more since it was kehila based.)
To the naysayers who say the two can’t mix; I see that in desperate situations this works just fine. I know older singles , divorced and sick singles who once they knew they couldn’t be choseey the all went for litvush and chasdiish and figured out their differences. If we wanted we can get it done. It’s a matter of mindset