Chaim87

@Always_Ask_Questions:
Once you go that route the list gets beyond huge. I mean you really think R Herzog, the next cheif rabbi after R Kook zl was also a CVS a kofer? Look at how much torah he learned. look at how many jews he saved during the war. Then there are all the talmidm of R Kook ZL like the nazir and R isser Zkaman Meltzer’s son. R isser zalman himself was very close to R kook. This list of chashuva mizrachi rabbonim who even most tratitonal charedim won’t call a kofer is huge. But my point is even many rabbonim who we’d consider charedi or accepted in Charedi circles were pro Zionist. The idea that we must follow the shlosh shevous was refuted in many sefarim.. Firstly its an aggadta and our mesora is not to pasken like an agaddta. Secondly, the 3 shavous is only if the goyim keep their deal and don’t start up with jews. There are other refutations too.

But the key point is many charedi leaders held of Zionism. Our torah is not in conflict with Zionism according to many. However it is in conflict with secularism. And so being opposed to the current state of Israel because its secular is pretty much the viewpoint of all frum jews. How to deal with that is the big question. And should we try to find a frum path or charedi path that shields us within the system (even in the army) so we aren’t influenced? Those are fair debates within the debate of secularism.

@somejewiknow

There are tons of sefarim. Read the rziyna sefarim. And torah works isn;t the deciding factor. Actions are. Facts are they openly said they support zionsim and freed tish on yom hatzmot. (Same with punvitch). If I listed sefarim you’d mach that avek too. But there are plenty . you just refuse to look at them,
Here is one published sefer which I gurantee you will mach avek like you always do because you are one sided.

Rabbi Yaakov Friedman, the third Husiatyn Rebbe and a great-grandson of Rabbi Yisrael of Ruzhin, was a passionate Religious Zionist. He actively supported the Mizrachi movement and moved with his family to Israel in 1937. Many of his sermons in support of Religious Zionism, delivered between 1937 and 1956 in Tel Aviv, are collected in his sefer “Ohalei Yaakov.”

There are mnay more sefarim but you can’t deny actions either. Its not just about whats written. its how people acted. facts are a reba fered tish yom hatzmt. Facts are punvithca rav had all these kneset members by his ground breaking. facts are R Shraga feivel made a bracha for the medina. Facts are R Wolfson ZL said the 6 day war was a nes. i heard it from the tzadiiks mouth. You have excuses galore. Because you are a hothead where only one side is right. Its not a good midah. There are mnay ways to torah.

@somejewiknow;
Furthermore on top of Rizyn,

We know R isser Zalman supported the medina. His son took over Hesder after R kook Zl R tzvi pesach Frank as well as the tzitz elizer.

R Shraga Feviel mendlovithc made a bracha when the state was foudned. As per an eyewitness. yes Stamar reba was upset at that but he made that bracha.

First year of the statehood Punvitcha rav said hallel yom hatzmut. And they still raise the flag every year. in the groundbreaking cermeony in 1952 where the chazon ish attended many leadig kennest member’s were present. In fact there wre patchkavialln all ove rmeah sheraim against him. for that. Yes you can wash this all up and say hey the punitcha rav was just a politician. But if its all total kefira why go to such an extent like he did? I don’t think it would have been Ok for him to invite leading kofrim like reform rabbis. So why is zionsits different?

I heard from R Moshe wolfson ZL that 1948 was an eis rotozn for moshiach. nebach we weren’t zochah so instead we got “shiveri kelim” the medina. He also gave us a whole shuir how in 1967 the six day war was a miracle. Again very much not in the spirt of zionsim as kefira.

There are tons of pro zionsit sefraim out there too. Again don’t conflate zionsim with secularism. Zionisim has strong fondations in our torah. Secular zionsim has no place

@somejewiknow
There are tons of sefarim that are pro Zionism. You just don’t read it . Bpashtis the whole chovevi Zion movement was that. Again don’t confuse Zionism with secularism . In most of the anti R Kook and Chazon ish it’s about secularism. That’s different than opposition. To Zionism.

I’ll repeat it again and keep it simple. Make believe I am a rizyna chusid . Is that anti Torah ? Yes or no? Just answer that question.

@somejewiknow:
The Imeri emes never said its kefira. he said it comes from to much of love for other jews and its wrong. Kefira is a strong word.
The fact that many gedolim held R Kook in high esteem even when disagreeing with him in principal proves its not kefira.

Now to your other point which is a complete total lie that you made up. Yes its a satmar idea that the torah rejects zionism. Most Aguda gedolim including the imeri emes held of zionism and yes published ideas about it. The objection was mostly against SECURLAISM. You keep on confusing the two things and just repeat the same untruths. Let me be cllear:
1) Zionism: is the idea that jews should have a state in israel before moshiach. Not one word of oppostion of that idea from many mnay leading gedolim.
2) Secularism: The idea that the state will be secular and our torah CVS will be diminished. Almost all rabbonim excpet R Kook ZL held we most vehemently oppose that. Its a different fight. Secularism is indeed a clear conflict with our torah.

Now to the gedolim that held of zionsim. Lets start with almost all Rizyhna rebas. Are they all kofrim? (I’ll move in to others after). Lets say I am rizyna. Am I kofer now?

@yechiell
1) The American Recovery Act, increased our deficit by $1.9T and resulted in Inlfation. Our dirt responders would not have been laid off widescale to justify that. There was tons of waste and abuse in ?that spending too. (To be fair, Trump is just as guilty if not more for Inflation but it doesn’t give Biden a Hail pass)
2) Bipartisan Infrastructure Act: Please point me to significnat roads that were really rebuilt. I want to see these ew big projects. And at what cost? It costs billions just to repave a road The govt is full of waste and these things are pure nonsense flushing money down to the toilet. Gone are the days when visionaries like Robert Moses, actually built highways and bridges. That’s long gone. These “infrastructure” bills are loaded with garbage.
3)The Inflation Reduction Act: That did not cut inflation. Again baloney. You know what brought inflation down? The feds increasing rates. Once again Trump is nuts for criticizing the feds and has inkling about Finance and the economy. BH Powell’s soft landing learning from Volcker did it. But Biden did nothing.
4) Climate change? You believe in that Hoax? Please prove that its man made or that more storms really arise from it. Yes we can prove the climate is warmer. But we have no clue why its warmer or that its really harmful. Those are all theories. Voddo Sceince. Now Ill concede that at the end of the day, storms do cause damage and its a good thing to protect homes from storm damage and to protect our water. But stop it with this climate change hoax.
5) pro union: so why did the unions turn on Biden?

Let me finish by saying that yes overall biden wasn’t as bad as the world makes him. I think he was slow to adress inflation . The same with supply shortages where even when warned beforehand he ignored the science . (He was told that a heavy flu season would hit the USA in the winter of 2022 -23 yet we had medicne shortages all over). But Biden was OK and didn’t cause much harm either. i also respect and criticize him for Israel. I respect that he stood generally very strong with israel. But blame him for slowing them down in Gaza and giving credence to the Palestinian Humanitarian cause too much. That harms israel. I also give him credit for the Hezbollah ceasefire. Altough there again, he prevented Israel for months form doing what it wanted to do there. And the ceasefire is partly because Hezbollah is scared of trump after he won. This is why Hamas is back at the table too.

And so all considering Biden wasn’t bad but not great either. We owe him a thanks for the things he did do for us including Israel. But Trump seems to be far better when it comes to israel. Thats our #1 issue. (Re The economy I am not so sure Trump’s extremist ideas are great. But Biden wasn’t great either)

@HaKatan: I should say I read the Imeri emes letter and
1) he is only upset at R Kook for being “mischaber with Reshaim” who are ant torah. He doesn’t say one word against zionsim. And this dsicusion is about zionsim.
2) He is still very respectful and holds him in the highest esteem as seen in the letter. he says its because of his tremendous ahavas yisroel.

Repeating my main point, lets call me a riztna chusid . Am I kofer because I don’t hold of Satmar?

@Always_Ask_Questions,

The fact that R Moshe zl was good friends with R JB zl is the point I am making too. Its because R moshe may have disagreed with R JB but he still held that R JB’s views are not kefira. R Moshe wasn’t respectufl of Sol Liberman even though he was a goan too. And so I can’t believe that so many gedolim were “repsectful” of R kook yet held its kefira.. And if it sin’t kefira who says its wrong. Both are torah views.

@HaKatan
I have no clue how old you are but speak to wise people over 80 and ask them what it was like 60 years ago. How they felt about zionism? It was much more pro Israel in charedi circles.

You can’t count what Satmar wrote because we agree on that. My argument is that he wasn’t the only gadol and bug gedolim disagreed. You also can’t count Brisk. We agree on that but many other disagreed. Same with the minchas eluzer.

Ger may have wrote certain sharp things in public letters. Altough I question that and would love for you to find me a link to that. However, facts are that overall, Ger was very pro zionsim and r kook. Ask any gera chusid. Again certain things were written against the ideo of coppearing with secularism but thats not zionism.

Re lubavtich yes them and belz were anti zionism. However, look at both today who changed views. So its not so clear cut.

You say people were “confused” about zionsim. That’s called revsinbg hisotry. When people don’t agree with your view they are “confused”. Oh I get it only your way is right.

Bototm line you fail to deny that all the rzyna rebas were pro zionsim. Why is that a nothing? R isser Zalman, the nazir, R Tzvi pesach frank, R shloma zalman and R elishyav etc all nothing? R Shraga feivel zl made a bracha when the medina was founded. (A fact I heard form eye witnesses). All is nothing. You keep on repeating the same few gedolim. OK You have a few big ones . But I also have a few big ones. Almost all rizyna rebas were pro zionists Should i repeat that again?)

@HaKatan
What you wrote about the chafetz chaim is just false. Your argument is because anyone who reads his work can see he said things that were blasphemous. Firstly that doesn’t prove the chafetz chaim didn’t hold of him. You completely made that up with no proof. I do have proof . There were 100’s of witnesses at the kensia where the chaftez chaim walked out of when a speaker bashmutzed R kook. Its very well documented and its FACT. We also know the R Kook helped the chafetz chaim write his seforim after his father-in-law teh aderes was nifter. Again a FACt.
Next re Ger. I can’t talk to a letter he signed. Firstly did you see the signature or its rumor? lets say its true. Noone is saying that he hold sof everything he did to the T. Overall theyt hold of him termendously. All you have to do is ask anyone in GER what they hold of R kook’s seforim and the man. He is till today a kodosh in ger. Go walk in and ask.

Your problem is a you formulate a theory based on narrow minded view that only one way in torah is correct. And when you hear that maybe tzadkim held of him you mach it avek that only your way can be true. The revisionist hisotry of today is sad. The 1930’s -1950’s were very different than you envsion with a good chunk of leading gedolim pro zionsim. (No I am not narrow minded. Yes the holy satmar reba and brisker rav plus many yerushlami gedolim were against it. But others disagreed)

@somejewiknow
Its a documented fact that tge Chafetz chaim held R Kook Zl in high esteem and walked out in front of hundreds of people when R Kook was bashhmutzed at a big convention. What’s not documented is the kook shmook line that he never said. R Kook evne helped the chaftez chaim write seforim after his shver the aderes was nifter. I told you that R Isser Zalman held of it as did R tzvi pesach Frank and many other gedolim. You live in a bubble who refuses to believe there are two sides. There are plnety of teshuvas pro fighting in the army but you’ll mach them avek saying they weren’t geolim and only your were. Its fake jusidam, You live in a shell of lies. The truth is both are holy views. And we all know R Aron Lieb Steinman was Ok with the army too. Till he got bullied he allowed nachal charedi. This is all balony.

There is no question that in terms of ehrlichkit many of the hesder boys are just as ehrlich and torahdik as ponvitch. Its simply ignoring the facts if you say otherwise. Now there are fair questions such as

1) Is torah protecting us and maybe its wrong for charedim who are learning fight at all? Or maybe the Hesder approach of mixing the two is correct. Both sides are torhadik views.
2) What about the securlairm of the army? Hesder boys have a strong system and upbringing that enables them to insulate in the army without being affected. Can charedim do the same? They don’t have that kind of background nor do they really have a system set up in the army like hesder. They also won’t be sedning the strong leraning boys to the army and only the “weaker” boys will go
3) What about the chasdim? You can’t set up a system in the army that satisfies all of Ger’s takunas etc.

Then there is the ideology.
1) Is zionism and the idea of jews having a state against the torah and its views? Sure there is a list of gedolim and tzadkim who were anti zionism albiet mostly hungarian jews and a minor few ltifish like Briska rav and R Elchnonon. But then there were just a ton of rabbonim (too many too list) who were Ok with zionism too. Mizrachi was even initally part of agudah. So both are the torah view
2) After 1948 and the medina was founded. Now the question of whether we should have a country is no longer a question. Now its how do we deal with the secular threat since its a secular state. Here you now have an interesting turn. Big rebas like R Arela Blezer and the lubvatcha rebas who were previously very against the idea of a statehood now said this is the reality lets be part of it once its here. Meanwhile other rebas who were perhaps more zionistic like the rizyna rebas moved towards the “right” realzing that yes we should be part of the govt but at the same time now its no longer a question of “joining up” with them for the ideal of a state. We got the state and we will be thankful but now we have to watch our from secularism.

And thus its two distinct question. Jews having their own statehood many gedolim held yes. Now how about the secular threat? Thats where charedim and hesder went differnet ways on how to build those walls. But again both follow our torah

@ModernChassid

I think one can equate modern day DL who is very frum and keep halacha to how many many holy gedolim held pre war when they supported zionsim. People like the rizyna rebas , imeri Emes and so many others too large to list envisoned the DL model.

I think we need to be careful about this rhetoric. We need to stay independent vs becoming loyal to one party. Not everything the republican’s do are so great either for frum jews. Take an extreme example where a Ron Paul isolationist takes charge and advocates not supporting Israel. Or for example take the neo Nazis. Now lets focus on other issues pertaining to frum jews in the USA. Is anti immigration so great for us? We like to say yes. But our community benefits alot from immigrants probably more than others without getting into details. We need them here. Another example, sure Biden is guilty for Inflation but Trump isn’t innocent either. Trump increased the deficit by $3T before covid (some via tax cuts without cutting govt spending). Trump overspent during covid with PPP and so much unemployment. Sure it was needed but it just feels like it was to sloppy. Other countries didn’t do that. Trump’s vulgar langauge, demeanor and moral values are far worse than other politcans and we can’t ignore that either.

That all being said Israel is our #1 issue. Harris already tied israel’s hand in rafah and weapons’ embargos with her silly innocent Palestinian civilians argument. And the embracement of a two state solution is all very dangerous now. This is why yes das torah said vote Trump. israel is our #1 issue. But lets not get stuck in the Trump kool-aid and say everything of the other side is horrible. If Fetterman ran instead of Harris its very possible he’d be the best candidate.

Then there are local elections. Murphy in NJ for example, worked with us during covid (contrast that to Cuomo) and fought off threats like ruse-up ocean county. And then there are progarms that yingerlit need where democrates are more gracious although lately school vouchers are a repubcoan thing.

I know we all quote R Miller who was against voting for democrat’s. But others including R Moshe zl held to vote for democrat’s at times. We know Stamar & Skver are often democrat too. Its wiser if we remain issue based and independent based on the issue at hand. Yes this time trump was the right vote. But don’t buy into the cult.

@Dr. Pepper,
The points you make are fair pointers but I think the question is about becoming an accountant today vs years ago. Here is my professional opinion as someone who debated this issue years ago and chose not to be an accountant rather another profession.
1) Those 150 credits are easier today than ever Touro college years ago. PCS does this in 18 months.
2) The idea that with hard work in other professions you can just grow and get promoted has shifted a lot in corporate. That used to be the case. Nowadays, there are far fewer promotions and hard work won’t get you to VP. You need to be politically savvy and polished which is hard for a frum Jew. Corporations got more nimble and keep a lot more at mid level roles.
3) The frum world of business has gotten so large that it’s built it own eco system of commerce. While years ago only a few select accountants left corporate for CFO, nowadays the demand for a competent worker is much higher. Opportunity in frum communities where you need not travel are ample and pay is decent.
Bottom line, for the average frum yeshiva guy accounting is just the most smoothest path albeit it has struggles and bumps. In todays days where everyone is looking to just be rich till they fall on their face, accountants is advised

@Neville Chaimberlin Lo Mes,
1) As I told you lockdowns depend on context. How long the lockdown? At what point in time? Saving lives is vital to especially when the fire is out of control. Conservatives agree on that. It isn’t tyrnany at that point in time when everything is so overwhelmed and people were dying that quickly. Thats basisc common sense. Yes a half year in what Cuomo did is tyrrany. Thats a very different time.
2) I agree Trump did nothing on the border wall. On many issues the man is hot air fluff.
3) You are dead wrong on the shuls. By labeling them essential NYC was required to allow them to open. They did open at that point. But the limit was only ten people social distanced. They sent inspectors to check on it. But they were forced to reopen. That is a known fact. (Of course when it comes to Trump the never Trump cult is so brainwashed that they distort facts).
4) Trump was indeed not a conservative. He had no fiscal discipline and spent like a drunken sailor. The idea of tarriffs is also not conservative. Both I think wreck the economy. He didn’t cut a single program either. He ran the govt like his slot machines in AC.
5) The reason I like trump isn’t because he is a conservative. Those are my dislikes. I like Trump because of foriegn policy and Israel especially. Only someone who drinks the never Trump kool aid can’t see that he is good on that end. That doesn’t make him all good. In my opnion, the never trump frum jews can’t admit that Trump wins resoundingly on this issue. Because they know after Oct 7 this is the most pressing issue. That would mean they can’t be a never Trumper. They can’t bring themselves to say that. I on the other hand will tell you, Trump is not good on mnay issues other than israel and yes how he handled Covidwith reagrds to vaccines, fasttracking ventitlators and covid tests and yes lockdowns But I am leaving out his wreckless covid spending. where he gets an F for wasteful PPP.

But to repeat no question he is better for Israel

@Neville Chaimberlin Lo Mes,
1) Trump peacemaking firstly opened business opportunities. Secondly, the accords I believe offered Israel greater legitmacy in this war. lastly, it kept the Sunni Arabs out of the fight even though Hamas is sunni not shite. Ideally Saudi Arabia and the UAE should be with hamas. So it did alot
2) Moving the embassy: again yes its just a building but it adds legitimacy to israel. Furthermore, it buries the arab claim that Israel is an occuiper, after all the embassy says otherwise. its a big statement and no other president agreed to move that embassy for a reason.
3) Iran deal: Well the do nothing to stop it isn’t the point. But firstly he did do something by imposing more sanctions via ripping up the deal. That’s not nothing. Secondly, it takes time to fully get tough on Iran. Don’t forget killing Soleimani was also something. And if you think he will get lighter on Iran, you have another thing coming. Iran was caught trying to plot an assassination attempt on Trump. Even if just a rumor Trump takes revenge on his enmies. Just ask the Democrat’s how scared they are of that. Trump despite his love for Putin ain’t gonna let him pump Iran. They want Trump dead.
4) Re shuls during Covid:Oh yes such a thing happened. Go research it., trump decalred houses of worship are essential. That means that accoridng to law you can’t shut down a shul. The govt decides whats essential and essential services must remain open. And Guess what I am one of those that believe lockdowns at least early on were important. So yes Trump cared about our safety and did not want to stop lockdowns. It wasn’t safe to have everything open that early on (I think later on once vaccines were out, it was another story). Nevertheless the balance that our shuls are “essential was a virtue.

Two more closing points: Trump again is appointing pro Israel people both to the UN and other positions. Jared still has trumps ear on the middle east.
And my final point, I think its dishonest on your part and distruthful to not see how Trump is good for jews. It stems form your anti trump narrow close minded view. Its as bad as the lemmelach that think trump is all good. Trump is horrible for the economy and as frum jews lets not kid ourself immigration is a good thing. We all have goytas and immgrants helping us all over. We need to stop being fools and buying into all trump’s lukshein. neverthless that doesn’t change the fact that for jews Trump is better. (Harris/ Biden just forced israel to send humanitarian aid to gaza). You need to stop denying the facts just because you hate trump.

@Neville Chaimberlin Lo Mes,

So I am one of these people that neither buy into the Trump cult nor buy against everything Trump.
Here is the one issue you fail to address. How good he was for frum jews. And yes Israel but even more than that. Here is the list:
1) Abraham accords
2) Ripping up the Iran deal (you can argue about its virtues but the democratically elected leader of Israel wanted that)
3) Moved the embassy
4) Killed Soleimani
For frum jews in general
5) Freed Rubashkin and prison reform
6) during covid passed a law for houses of worship
7) more funding to private schools

There are more but thats a start. At the same time, he caused inflation and won’t decrease gas prices now . he will increase inflation and won’t uild that stupid wall. to your point his endless unpemployement and PPP money caused inflation. But depsite his failures we needed him for gaza. Biden’s back and forth wasn’t good. The delay and second guessing before we went into Rafah. The consistent insistence of humanitarian aid that enriches hamas. the threat not to supply weapons. Its time to get the kid gloves off and stop falling for Hamas charades about innocent civillans. They played Biden/ harris too much. You can’t play trump like that. So yes there is plenty bad but for us the good is much better

@anchuldiks
538 has Trump at 52% chance of winning

As I noted in my above comment, I suspect many here are being cynical. In reality minyan factories are one of the holiest most chashuva shuls around. They are selfless people who just give and give to other jews no matter who they are. And anyone who tries to open one up for money or fame quikcly shuts it down. Its not a money maker and its a huge undertaking. And there is a need for more of them.

I like to describe a minyan factory as a shul that’s a factory of endless chesed. A shul where there is no “I” rather its us. They are generally places that care about jews from all walks of life. Take the Shomer Shabbos shul, it not only has minyanim for the kehila when its needed but it also caters to all different minhagim. There are minyanim for rabbani tam accoding to many shitas, krias hatorah at 4PM for those that couldn’t hear it earlier, minyan ethlim thursady night, minyan for Bhab, YM kotton for those and for those not fasting. Its doesn’t have signs disinviting people who aren’t dressed a ceratin way. All are welcome. And this why there is also a free soup kitchen with lots of food, collections for the poor of all walks of life, rides to all over the world for those that need etc. Basically, its what being real chasdish means as the Besht wanted. A place that cares and welcomes all jews from all walks of life. (schiners is similar). “minyan factories” are one of the most holiest special places around.

@somejewiknow: HARAV Kook to you. He always held the same shita and never went off the derech. You bring a proof from one gadol R Elchanon and one alleged line which is not clear iof he said it or not. I am not the liar rather you are because you can’t fathom that there are mnay ways to torah.. You are stuck in a cult. We know the holy chaftez chaim held of him.

No it not a lie that R Isser Zalman Meltzer, & R Tzvi pesach Frank and the Nazir were all colse to him.
No it not a lie that R shlomia zalman and R Elyshaiv learned by him. Would they learn by a “rasha”?

Re Zionsim as a whole, we have eyewitness testmiony from people who saw the Rizyna rebas celebrate Yom hatzmut. I heared from an eyewitness who heard R sharga fevil mendleovitch make a bracha on the medina. We all know punvitch raised the flag and said hallel.

You refuse to face the truth when its staring at you in the face. Someone who denies facts, I can’t debate. But I will continue to call you out as being untruthful

@somejewiknow.

R Aron Lieb Z’l was very- supportive of nachal charedi. No its not an avoda zara. Noone is saying it kodesh kodshim. But you need to stop belittling other jews who you disagree with. When you hear R Asher Weiss speak about shailas he gets from some of these IDF soilders there is no way you can say that they are all just looking to throw off the yoke and shmad. Listen to the question from the wounded soilder missing hands who wants top put on teflin. Go look at soldiers making a syuim in gaza or daveing with a bren like you & I never davened. Its easy to be a kanoi but the facts are that there are mnay ehrlicah soldiers. And yes maybe some people do belong there if they7 can’t learn. Even if you disagree , how do you hvae the chutzpah to say those that do join or shektazim? Its an outright lie and mitzai shem ra.

@crazykanoiy
Re Afghanistan or the Kurdish those are not really Israel and jewish issues. I don’t think everything you quote is accurate but Ill leave that aside for now.\

Lets discuss Iran, Trump did NOT allow Iran to enrich uriname That’s completely false and you know it. Trump backed out of the Iran deal. The Iran deal was a bad deal that didn’t really stop Iran. Iran was lying and building it anyhow. You forgot Bibi’s map displayed at the UN showing where Iran was building it, in areas that they didn’t let inspectors in. Trump called their bluff. Not that further proof is needed, but you see that Bibi and the Israeli intelligence didn’t like the deal. if it was truly such a great deal why did Israel hate it? The obvious is that it was a bluff. Let me remind you also that trump has the guts to assassinat a top Iranian general Solemani.. Trump has the guts to stand up to Iran.

Calling an enemy smart whether its Putin or Hezbollah doesn’t diminish anything. It just means beware of the enemy. I think the Nazis YMS were very smart too. Why does that matter or make them less evil? (Incidentally Hezbollah ain’t too smart and Hamas with “Yamus” Sinwar YMS is probably the brightest of the bunch).

Re is bashing Bibi, yes trump gets crazy like that but at the end of the day his policies are very clear. And his entire party is so pro Israel. trump loves making his base happy. (He likes Ivanaka too). Its insane to call a guy who took the time to go to the reba or reaches out so much to frum jews as an anti semite. Lamsa Harris doesn’t do those stuff. I mean his love for jews is pretty obvious.

I get that you are blinded by Trump hate. And just to be clear so that you don’t think I buy into the “cult” as you call it. Trump has alot of faults. he is no messiah. For starters , he is bad for the economy, spends too much, causes inflation. China embargos are a bad idea. I think the noise about Immigration is all just fear and blown up out of proportion. The man is corrupt through and through. A zona, con man, weird creep are all true about him. Nevertheless, to deny the fact that he is better for Jews in these crazy times is just so false on so many levels. Its almost as if there is a certain hate trump cult that blinds you into not seeing the truth either.

There are so many variables that complicate this discussion.

Firstly, what is the after game? I get it that the goal is lets say to stay in Gaza for another year or two. But there will be a time just like Lebanon when we tends will leave. Who controls the place then? And who says they will be better? Will it be a ” new group” who pretends to be peaceful (maybe the PA) and that will force Israel to allow more freedom but then when it turns around CVS they are even worse? Or keeping Hamas there but having a good excuse to box them in more is perhaps the option which may be the ceasefire option?
Secondly, the prisoner exchange. We like to say this was all Sinwar YMS brains. But was it also not Deif and mashal YMS?, Sure letting out prisioners can result in senior experienced operatives to turn around and kill us. But in reality there are just so many rutheless palestianins drinking the jihad kool-aid that if it’s not these animals its them.
Of course meanwhile hostages are suffering a holocaust and there is no viable way to free them by force rather CVS Hamas will kill them if we get to close
And what if we make a deal and go back in after our fellow brothers come home? The world will scream and we won’t be able to grab all the freed prisoners that have blood on their hands but we can get a nice amount.
I am not suggesting that this approach of standing frim with no ceasefire is wrong. From a torah perspective we have the mahram M rutenberg. Although R Michoel Ber Z’l did negotiate with nazis. I heard R Asher Weiss couldn’t pasken either way when asked. Ultimately I just don’t think its a simple as everyone makes it