Chaim87

@Neville Chaimberlin Lo Mes,

Israel needed to fight this war for the past year so that it can destroy its infrastructure, tunnels, weapons, senior leaders and any capabilities to rearm. This was accomplished and we won that part. There was a dream that Hamas would completely disintegrate but that was a dream. It doesn’t feel like a win but lmasa there is no way Hamas can commit another Oct 7 attack anytime soon. Thus yes we won. Now whats the future plan? Hard to know. But the focus at this point needs to shift to hostages once we accomplished what we can and there is very little more we can do.

@Yserbius123
well said and I’d think it should bother any frum yid that stands for moral values. The convictions are gotcha moments and its “crime” doesn’t bother me. But the moral aspect of what he did and that he our president is a concern. However, he seems to be better for EY and getting our hostage’s homes. That “Trumps” everything else for a frum jew

@
somejewiknow
That’s your best cheap shot ? You make up your own religion and goal posts and everyone else is following another religion?

Bottom line answer the question. Was R eliyasviv a gadol in whatever twisted term you call a gadol. That would be yes or no. And if the answer is no then you are full of it . You make things up and lie and everyone else is empty. I will not stand for it and continue to call you out for this evilness of putting others down .

Your definition of a gadol is made up by you so that you could box in only Satmar Reba and that’s all that counts. It’s comical and sad.

Let the readers know Zionism has a strong makor in our Torah and frum religion . Many subject matter experts held of Zionism

@somejewiknow
“If somebody does something that is against any part of the Torah, especially kefira like explained in Vayoel Moshe, the kasha is on that person not on the Torah.”
Wrong, just because they go against vayoel moshe doesn’t make it kefira. If they are a tzadik and they do it then its not kefira. the Satmar reba was one person (who can make mistakes or at least have his shita) and they as a gadol can do differently. Vyoel moshe isn’t a halacha misinai.

Your whole silly goal post that one must write a teshuva or sefer to counter the other side is nonsense. You made that up. In fact the only reason that the Satmar reba has to write a sefer about this is simple. Because, its easy to do an ACTION that’s pro Zionism and that alone is proof that its correct. But you can’t really do an action thats “anti zionism” unless you protest like the crazies NK out there. By enlarge the only way to protest zionsim is to write a sefer. So just because he wrote a sefer while yenim did actions proves nothing.

To your defintion of a gadol. R Elyashav R Yosef and R Shloma Zalman ZL were experts in the subject of zionsim too. This mishigas that they have tow rite a sefer to prove that is your own made up lies. Their ACTIONS are authoritive and binding. Had their actions like working for the zionists are well known by other gedolim and yet they were accepted. That’s enough to say that zionsim isn’t kefira. They were “well known” as wroking for zionsists and it was no secret. Again they need not publish seforim. Thats shtusim that you made up. They were also weel versed on the topic of zionism vs not.

Now lets go the Punvitcha rav, His action of rasing the flag and having zionists speak at the ground breaking ceremony again were well known and indeed challenged by other gedolim in yerushlaim who hung up patchkervillen. And it was indeed very much “peer reviewed”. Yet the chazon ish and others atteneded. Did you “write” a sefer? No but he sure did strong actions.

I am also not sure why the sefarim I quoted from don’t count. They were torah experts on this subject And yes “other gedolim ” who were expertes did quote their writings. Just not the ones you hold of.

Overall you make things up as you go along. There is no such defintion for a gadol as you say. its baloney and your own purim torah to answer yourself. A gadol firstly certainly can’t be a mistaken “massies umtiach” or a “mistaken Kofer”. Thats just ridiculous. And someone who is an expert in all of torah teachings like R Elishyav is a gadol whether he hocked up zionism per say or not. And unless other leaders say don’t follow the action that he took, its enough to assume that he took the torah way. You make up your won narrow baised goalposts after you make your decision. That’s just hot air and lies.

@somejewiknow, Let me rephrase. Its someone who was so wise in torah, close to hashem and holy enough (by bring close to hashem) that we view his actions that he did in his lifetime to be the right actions with whom we follow. Someone much holier than a regular jew. Now every leader including the holy stamar reba commited an action occasionly that was perhaps not what we should follow because noone is perfect but in general we follow them. Maybe you enlighten us what makes someone a gadol big talker smart alic .

@somejewiknow
Someone with whom we emulate to do what they do and believe they made no mistakes in their actions. And/or leading poskim. We consider them to have the purest hashkafa. That will be a yes or no to my list.

@somejewiknow
Correction so many “gedolim “ not kofrim did ACTIONS that clearly without a question support Zionism. To call all of those holy people kofrim makes you the odd one and a kofer. You can deny that one person was a gadol but not when it’s a long list. So you have veyol Moshe and Rabbi Yedid yippy! When so many Torah gedolim do Actions in support of Zionism that makes it part of the Torah . Who are you to decide what’s correct Torah. You only know that by looking at the gedolim. Sometimes one gadol can error but not tons.
Furthermore, you look at a person Talmudim and that tells you if that person was a kofer. Let’s look at R kook talmidim who were gedoli olam.

@Rocky,
Sorry for the typos
None of the yingerlit receiving kollel checks get that from pel grants. Thats fully fundraised via Scheiner at $80m a year. via the aderi torah campaign.
$1K per student is a start. Just like it cost about $90-$100K to marry off a daughter and we have big bali Chasidim who built affordable wedding halls that save $5K. Its only 5% but it helps.

To your last point, fair point. I don’t know that your math is correct and if all 400K children’s live in areas with no govt vouchers etc. And the chasdim already have such a system so we need not include them. If $1000 is too much then even $500 helps. And yes someone as established is torah umesora should be able to raise $100M with alot of work

To your last point, I don’t think that’s a fair argument. I am not a fundraiser nor in that business. Torah umesora is here for that purpose. its purpose is to help the yeshivas. Its our “educational” go to center. They have their pulse on the frum yeshivas and bais yaakov system. What else should be their purpose if not this? I understand that this would be a huge undertaking. But so was opening up yeshivas in far out places in the 50’s. A mossad is their to sweat and do hard work.

@Always_Ask_Questions,
Quite the opposite. those on Govt programs earn enough and should indeed be charged a higher tuition. After SNAP, HUD, Medicad, HEAP, CHS they come out ahead. The issue is for middle class earners who work and try to earn enough yet its impossible to afford tution even on a 200K salary. Thats where its time to create a scholarship fund for them

@Rocky,
None of the yingerlit receiving kollel checks get that from pel grants. Thats fully fundraised via Scheiner at $80m a year. via the aderi torah campaign.
$1K per student is a start. Just like it cost about $90-$100K to marry off a daughter and we have big bali Chasidim who built affordable wedding halls that save $5K. Its only 5% but it helps.

To your last point, fair point. I don’t know that your math is correct and if all 400K children’s live in aeras with no govt vouchers etc. And lthe cahsdim already have such a system so we need not include them. If its 1000 then even 500 helps. And ues someone as established is torah umesora should be able to rasie $100M with alot of work

To your last point, I don’t think that’s a fair argument. I am not a fundraiser nor in that business. Torah umesora is here for that purpose. its purpose is to help the yeshivas. Its our “educational” go to center. They have their pulse on the frum yeshivas and bais yaakov system. What else should be their purpose if not this? I understand that this would be a huge undertaking. But so was opening up yeshivas in far out places in the 50’s. A mossad is ther to sweat and do hard work.

This is a very good question. In other words why doesn’t it create a fund to solve the tuition crisis. Any parent who earns below x times the poverty level for his family size should be able to get say 1k per child. (So maybe anyone earning less than 400% of poverty level or 450% and not receiving support). They’d also have to apply the value of govt programs. So let’s say you only earn income wise 200% but after programs you are receiving 500% of poverty level you wouldn’t get this grant.

I know this would be very expensive but if BMG can raise $80M per year why can’t they raise $100M? And use it to help struggling middle class ?

@somejewiknow
I showed you torah reponses and pointed you to it. But you dismss it because you are a close minded naive jew who thinks only your way is right.
Furthermore, you make it sound like oh you need a “torah response” like in a sefer written down. Thats baloney and your own made up lies to push yourself ion this box you create.. The Torah reponse is the way other gedolim responsed with ACTIONS. Its not just what they write in a sfer. You make up your own rules as they go along. Now how did other big leaders REACT. Well lets see, some made a barcha when the israel was founded, some said hallel and some ferred tish. Another r Action is the talmidim R Kook ZL: had. Many many huge gedlom. That’s the proof and unless you deny those proofs you are lying. Your goalposts are your own made up lies.

Unfortunately blame for the growth of the anti vaxer movement is the Govt under Fauci during covid.
Mandated Vaccine requirements push masses to distrust the govt. Especially when the vaccines aren’t needed for those who had covid. Nor do the vaccines protect from getting sick. It only protects against dying. I recall Dr Brix saying its your choice and we won’t force it and then she forced it.
Govt Shutdowns: Sure it helps but to close things for 6 -12 months is insane. Humans are functions of social interactions. Shutdowns are draconian measures. It should only be used to get grip on things like for a month.
And of course masks.
All this caused a major erosion of mistrust. Then you want to know why people aren’t taking Vaxines? Next time when you think about health policies, think about the effects it can have physcologiiclly .

@yechiell
I’d beg to differ. I think Polio is an issue now because of the Biden administration and Fauci. I blame the proliferation of the growing anti vax movement as a pushback against to much govt interference into our private lives. People are frustrated at forced covid vaccine mandates. People are mad about govt shutdowns for months on end. People are mad about masks. Now I don’t disagree with the idea of any of those. But here is the thing.
Covid vaccines: When it first came out I remember Dr Birx saying we understand vaccines are a tough choice but we encourage you to take them. That should of been the message vs a forced mandate.
Shutdowns: This is a draconian measure. Humans need to socially interact. Its good for when we can’t handle things like during the first onset of the outbreak. But at a certain point after a month or two that should have reopened.. Its not intended as a cue for 6 months straight.
When the govt overdoes it, it erodes trust.in our system. They never thought about the damage and psychological pushbacks that would occur. Its their fault more than Trump or RFK

@yacr85,
Huh?
1) Re Lebanon:
A) Of course the ground invasion did it. And yes the ceasefire was what allowed people to move back. But what do you think pressured Hezbollah into a ceasefire? The combination of the air attacks and that the entire south Lebanon was wiped out by the ground invasion. That included all their strategic locations. Addiotnally, the IDF was its on way to Beruit. They didn’t want a “ground invasion” of Beruit. Like what else do you think forced Hezbollah into a ceasefire? The air alone would have never done that. Get real.
B) Is the North safe now? yes 100%. And thats because of the ground invasion. The biggest risk was that hezbollah was building up in prep for an Oct 7 like attack on its border. The whole south is wiped out and Hezbollah has nothing there. They are completely obliterated in the south Lebnaon. They had tunnels and weapons and miliatry bases/ bunkers all over. Thats all gone. So yes the north is very safe now. I’d have no issue living there. And the ground invasion was needed.
c) Hezbollah is a little nothing now. It will take years to rebuild it and without Syria help. This is a clear win. Of course many low level terrorists still remain but they are a nothing. No power and no way to pose a threat now for a long time.
2) Gaza: Of course those hostages were freed because of the IDF attacks. What forced that first round of negotiations? The fact that Hamas was hopping the IDF won’t invade Gaza city like it did to North Gaza. The invasion sacred them. Now is Hamas defeated? Thats not as clear as Hezbollah. But they are extremely weak. They have no infrastructure and their land is in such disarray. Israel is not leaving so quikcly and they know it. They can want to attack again with a vengance but they will have a very very hard time attacking now. israel is on top of thwem and in Gaza. They will continue to ack them and watch over them like a hawk. Many of their tunnels are gone. Its at least a ten year set back.

Your logic that war doesnt do this but ceasefires do is so flawed. What pushes them into a ceasefire in the first place? The ground invasion’s and war. of course this is necessary. Now is it a “mitzva” I don’t know. But its not “bibi’s war”

Ask the Gorelicks

@yacr85,
We need to work our way backwards on your comment.

The war in the north was a “watse of time”? Umm Hezbollah is basiclly completely destroyed and cannot lobby missiles at israel any more. Syria which is their route fell apart as a result of the war and Iran is weakened. I think anyone with an honest side will tell you israel fully won that part of the war unlike 1982 , 2000 & 2006 when we lost these wars. I don’t know how you can logically call that a waste of time.

Now lets turn to Gaza: Firstly over 100 hostages were set free early on due to military pressure. IYH soon the other 50 or so remaining will be freed as well. Things look promising and we continue to daven. But the war with Gaza wasn’t just to free the hostages. if it was then you could argue that it was a mixed scuesss. Nebach unfortunately it looks like we may lose 50-75 heilga nefoshos of those hostages. We already know of about 15-20 killed in captivity nebach directly because of the IDF operations on top of those from other causes.. However the goal is to make Hamas incapable of comfiting Oct 7 again. That goal has been acheived. For a very long time they won’t be able to march in and do this again. So no it isn’t a waste of time and very worthy war.

That bring me to me the next point of syaing oh its the “secular Israeli’s ” looking to shamd us who decided on this war. No thats false. This was an obivously needed war to stop missiles from the north and to stop Hamas & Hezbollah from comtting Oct 7. Its not a war that the secular zioinsits decided to wage. Its a war that was forced upon us and now its fight or we will die again. Now is that a “milchmas miztva”? I have no clue. But its a necessary war.

@somejewiknow
There isn’t a “psak” about Zionism. You made that up from bodeim. It’s an ideology where people were against it . You make things up. Baloney.
Now if you want to call it a “counter psak “, I quoted many and yes we do have many more counter pasaks. I told a few above on top of R Kook who in his own right can hold it.

I don’t get your point re conservatives. My point is, those that joined it were ex communicated from our community even if religious. Are you going to belittle R elysshav and R Yosef? It’s Clear that it’s not kefira or they would not have worked for them. It sounds like you are belittling them a little. That talks to your hot head close minded nonsense . That everyone is a kofer but you. Who do you think you are to belittle these great people ?

Furthermore, it’s been proven in history that movements who are kefira become not religious and don’t observe mitzvas after 1-2 generations. Look at shabasi tzvi and the reform movement. Now go take a look at hesder the mizrachi movement founded by R kook 100 years ago. It’s even more religious and frummer now . Look at how ehrlich its soilders are. Kefirs doesn’t stick. R kook stuck

Just pointing out, this sounds like its a boys school with a female thrid grade teacher.. I can’t imagine that school rules are so rigid then. In a real “yshivish or chasdish boys school 3rd grade teachers aren’t females.

@somejewiknow,

You are a stubborn hot head who refuses to creep out of the bubble you live in. I make no bizyun hatorah. I speak the emes and don’t just fall for how I was barinwashed.

You continue to ask me who are these people? And then you keep on moving thse goal posts and making up new corooked “boch sveros” on who has an opinion in this. But lest talk about your “peer review” shallow argument. So lets see who “peer reviewed”?

R Kook had many who “peer reviwed” him and stood on his side. R Isser Zalman Meltzer, R Tzvi pesach Frank, the titz elizer , the nazir, and many many more. These were big gaonim. Furthermore, he had talmidum who were huge. Sometimes you can see from ones talmidim. Notice how Shabis Tzvi didn’t leave over lasting talmdim who were our gedolim. But R kook did. They range from R Shloma Zalman, R Elyshav and many others that were older.

Re Rabbi Freidman who peer reviewed? Well the entire rizyna dynasty did. They include the shtefenstha reba, (Talimdim , Skulner reba and ribntza), Sadygur, Bohaush, Chortkov, Boyan etc. Rizyahn was huge pre war. They all agreed with him and in fcat followed in his ways. he wrote a sefer and the sadigura fered tsih yom hatzmut. Thats peer review.

Let move to Punvitcha rav, At that ground breaking cermeony, secular left wing leaders from the knesset spoke. The chazon ish was there with him. Take a look at the agudah syuim hashas where they are scared to put up H Hersechel Shachter who is barely even MO, because they will get in trouble. If its mamesh kefira would he have done that woth the chazon ish? (I mean yes the badatz held it was kefira and they posted patchkivillan against the punivtcha rav for that. But obvioulsy it wasn’t widely accepted). He also raised the flag on yom hatzmut. Imgaine if I raised a Hamas flag. would I get away with it?

Now lets move to R Elyashiv and R Yosef, both worked for the govt with R Yosef as chief rabbi for the state. If the state is all kefira how can they do that?is it OK to be a rebbe in JTS? I think we all agree that Sol Liberman who was gaon and aside for maybe R Moshe knew more torah than anyone else in the USA. Yet being a rebbe for the conservative movement completely passuled him. He himself was frum but we ex-comminincated him becasue his work was defactor endorsmenet of the movement. This is all as you say a “peer review” to the idea that zionsim is not clearl;y against our torah.

Now lets turn to Rabbi JB who was the head of mizrachi. R Aron speak harshley against him. But at the same time, they both ran chinuch atzmui. Theyw ere very close. I heard from an eyewitness that R Aron walked into YU to ask Rabbi JB to give a talmid a job there. He came to his levaya. R Aron did not agree with his hshkofoes. That’s clear. But a kofer?? Is it OK to run an organziation that teaches torah with a “kofer”?

Oh and yes 75% of frum jews who were pro the state of Israel were all kofrim. Oh I am sorry there aren’t as many sefarim quoting these people so they must be a kofer. Actions don’t matter only whats in a narrow sefer.

I could go on and on. And I have no doubt that you’ll drei akup. This is what liars like you do. You are so stuck in your own kool-aid. The evidence smacks you in the face that there are two sides. You’ll never see the truth. But I refuse to ever let you get the alst word on this. I won’t stand for bullies like you. You could contin ue to write and I wil always repeat the following.

The Issue of zionism is a debate among our holy sages. Some held its against our torah while others held its very much within our torah and whats wanted from us. Almost all agreed that seculrism is trief although there is a debate how much to tolerate that. The majorty of oppostion to the state of israel was because they are secular but not because ideally we can’t have a state.

We also need to stop this madness that smartphones are bad. If you want that extra chumra to live without one so be it. But its just one of these technologies like cars that are here to stay. Or like going to Manhattan full of priztus. Or the idea that we can’t look at a moving screen. Who still never sees any videos of any sort? This idea that we need to live in a cave or live like the Amish is just ridiculous. Now if the smartphones were unflitered then yes you have a very valid point.

This has gotten so silly that I know a hatzalah guy who told me a patient needed to sign a form on his device and the pateint refused because she was mekabel to never touch a smart phone. So he had to wait and delay her much needed care. The world has gone mad.

@somejewiknow

How did I know you’d push aside the sefer I provide?

Re “how they acted” Thats the point first you need to stop saying its kefira. Have an open mind. Look at their action. Then say OK these were big people and supported it so its NOT clear kefira. Its only Kefira according to some poskim. If big rabbis ferred tsih on yom hatzmut or said a bracha on the medina its not clear kefira. First establish the facts.

the author is not someone of stature that demand anyone taking him seriously
Yes he is. Why is he not someone of stature? because you decided? He was a holy chasdisha reba.

Who acknowledged his supposed zionist shita?
Umm nearly every Rizyna reba. As i told you the actions of sadygura rebas , Shetfenesht , Bohuash etc all clearly follow this path. Even if you don;t want to judge by actions once you have a sefer to back it up, its now clear. By the way if you know anything about Rzyhn its generally one cohesive chasduis even with different rebas . When one of the ruzyhna rebas speaks he speaks for all of them.

He was not put in cherem. How did he differ from R kook? Well R Kook zl issue was that he accomdated the non frum seculars too much. The criticism against R Kook zl by some like the Imeri emes was due to secularism and not zionsim. (yes some were against both but not all). The reba in this case was purely talking about zionsim. He wasn’t suggesting that we accommodate or validate secular forces.

Side bar This cherm of R Kook is partliy fake news. Made up by hot heads like you. Its not clear how serious the cherem was. After the cherem was signed R Chaim sonnenfeld still sat near him by events. So yena cherem. And based on what you are saying why would R Shloma Zalamn learn by someone in cherem and have him be mesadr kiddushin? So this alleged cherem is to be taken with a grian of salt. I speak the emes

So for all the readers lets make this clear: The question of whether torah conflicts with zionsim is a debate among big gedolim. Both sides are holy. Zionists are not koferim and are jews like the rest of us. Meanwhile Satmar and other anti zionsits are also holy jews. Zionsim is not clearly anti torah. There is a place according to many gedolim.

Sorry but you are the mockery of torah. You make a pre concieved fact as a given and refuse to look at the obvious on the ground. None of my fcats are grasoing on straws.