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This was a gathering about issues pertaining to Judaism. And R Kook was an issue. It wouldn’t be loshon hara if R kook wasn’t holy. Its also well known that he tried to make shalom between R Kook and R Y Chaim Sonnenfeld. The Adreres said that reason he neeve rmade it to EY was because had he made it there would have been shalom and moshiach would have come. And it wasn’t the time for moshiach. I heard this from a chshuva rav. That doesn’t sound like just being frum on L Hara. And R Kook helped the C chaim write his sefarim sof ymov too.
@HaKatan: Politcally powerful?? Thats white washing. Gedolim stood up to ben gurion Yimach shimo but couldn’t stand up to R Kook? Furthermore, R isser zalman meltzer, R frank, Tiitz elizer, the nazir, R elayshiv, R shloma zalamn all held of him. I know you’ll find excuses and answer each one. But gimme a break just admit that torah has many ways and both sides are holy. Re the chaftez chaim story wlaking out, sorry but there are more sources than just R Kook son. he walked out in front of 100’s of people. You can’t make that up. Sure R elchanon and the satmar reba were against him. Nobody denies that there are two sides. Both are holy.We also have all the holy rizyna rebas including the skulena and Ribnityza reba rebbe the shetfenshta who held of zionsim. The aver yakov fehred tsih on yom hatzmust. Go deny that.
Lastly, the majority of jews held of zionsim way back in Europe already. This is a known fact for anyone who doesn’t try to drei akup and revise hisotry to a narrow minded kannosihakit. Just to repeat again they rejected secularism. Henceforth were things get gray. is it zionsim or secularism that peop[le are against? As time evolved the issue becomes secularism.
@HaKatan
What you wrote about the chafetz chaim is just false. Your argument is because anyone who reads his work can see he said things that were blasphemous. Firstly that doesn’t prove the chafetz chaim didn’t hold of him. You completely made that up with no proof. I do have proof . There were 100’s of witnesses at the kensia where the chaftez chaim walked out of when a speaker bashmutzed R kook. Its very well documented and its FACT. We also know the R Kook helped the chafetz chaim write his seforim after his father-in-law teh aderes was nifter. Again a FACt.
Next re Ger. I can’t talk to a letter he signed. Firstly did you see the signature or its rumor? lets say its true. Noone is saying that he hold sof everything he did to the T. Overall theyt hold of him termendously. All you have to do is ask anyone in GER what they hold of R kook’s seforim and the man. He is till today a kodosh in ger. Go walk in and ask.Your problem is a you formulate a theory based on narrow minded view that only one way in torah is correct. And when you hear that maybe tzadkim held of him you mach it avek that only your way can be true. The revisionist hisotry of today is sad. The 1930’s -1950’s were very different than you envsion with a good chunk of leading gedolim pro zionsim. (No I am not narrow minded. Yes the holy satmar reba and brisker rav plus many yerushlami gedolim were against it. But others disagreed)
HaKatan
All the other gedolim did not condemn R Kook. This is revisionist fake news . The chafetz Chaim held of him , as did R isser zalman , R Frank , the Nazir, imeri emes, Rizyna Rebas , R Elishyav etc.I don’t think R kook zl would have held that if attacked you shouldn’t fight back . No one in Israel took things by force. That’s another made up thing.
Now I’ll concede, most gedolim wouldn’t hold of the IDF because of its secular nature. But not because of Zionist ideology. (Of course the Satmar Reba and many holy yerushalmi gedolim were against that too) But the question arises what if you could create a non secular branch that the seculars really don’t mix in or try to make less torahdik. Then it stays at the pure Zionist aspect. There many many big gedolim held of that in the past
@somejewiknow
Its a documented fact that tge Chafetz chaim held R Kook Zl in high esteem and walked out in front of hundreds of people when R Kook was bashhmutzed at a big convention. What’s not documented is the kook shmook line that he never said. R Kook evne helped the chaftez chaim write seforim after his shver the aderes was nifter. I told you that R Isser Zalman held of it as did R tzvi pesach Frank and many other gedolim. You live in a bubble who refuses to believe there are two sides. There are plnety of teshuvas pro fighting in the army but you’ll mach them avek saying they weren’t geolim and only your were. Its fake jusidam, You live in a shell of lies. The truth is both are holy views. And we all know R Aron Lieb Steinman was Ok with the army too. Till he got bullied he allowed nachal charedi. This is all balony.@somejewiknow,
False not all gedolim banned joining the army. Many permitted it. The bies Yisroel at times had chasdim in the army. R Kook who was held in high esteem held of fighting for a state. And R isser zalman , R frank , tzitz elizer and riyzhina rebas It’s NOT clear that one can’t support or work for the Zionist state. In fact R elashyiv zl worked for them. Some gedolim held like you but others disagreed. Please refrain from repeating this things. Oh and please don’t revise history either .There is no question that in terms of ehrlichkit many of the hesder boys are just as ehrlich and torahdik as ponvitch. Its simply ignoring the facts if you say otherwise. Now there are fair questions such as
1) Is torah protecting us and maybe its wrong for charedim who are learning fight at all? Or maybe the Hesder approach of mixing the two is correct. Both sides are torhadik views.
2) What about the securlairm of the army? Hesder boys have a strong system and upbringing that enables them to insulate in the army without being affected. Can charedim do the same? They don’t have that kind of background nor do they really have a system set up in the army like hesder. They also won’t be sedning the strong leraning boys to the army and only the “weaker” boys will go
3) What about the chasdim? You can’t set up a system in the army that satisfies all of Ger’s takunas etc.Then there is the ideology.
1) Is zionism and the idea of jews having a state against the torah and its views? Sure there is a list of gedolim and tzadkim who were anti zionism albiet mostly hungarian jews and a minor few ltifish like Briska rav and R Elchnonon. But then there were just a ton of rabbonim (too many too list) who were Ok with zionism too. Mizrachi was even initally part of agudah. So both are the torah view
2) After 1948 and the medina was founded. Now the question of whether we should have a country is no longer a question. Now its how do we deal with the secular threat since its a secular state. Here you now have an interesting turn. Big rebas like R Arela Blezer and the lubvatcha rebas who were previously very against the idea of a statehood now said this is the reality lets be part of it once its here. Meanwhile other rebas who were perhaps more zionistic like the rizyna rebas moved towards the “right” realzing that yes we should be part of the govt but at the same time now its no longer a question of “joining up” with them for the ideal of a state. We got the state and we will be thankful but now we have to watch our from secularism.And thus its two distinct question. Jews having their own statehood many gedolim held yes. Now how about the secular threat? Thats where charedim and hesder went differnet ways on how to build those walls. But again both follow our torah
Lets look at the trump apointees and see if its good for Israel. Huckabbee and Stefanik and Rubio . keep the list coming. Trump is a maddog and not who I’d Idiolize but right now he is my mad dog
I think one can equate modern day DL who is very frum and keep halacha to how many many holy gedolim held pre war when they supported zionsim. People like the rizyna rebas , imeri Emes and so many others too large to list envisoned the DL model.
@pure yiddishkeit,
Ill start with syaing that your comment is just from a modern day brainwashing’s of whityewashing facts They never taught you the truth because that would change your narritve.
Chafetz chaim: People are very quick to make a stink of one comment that the chafetz chaim said to one person pirvately. And the turth is he didn’t hold of everything R kook did. But FACTS are he walked out of a convetnion in front of hundreds of people for the kovod of R Kook. This is undisputable vs your one on one comment. It was a public display. Furthermore, R Kook shever helped write the chafetz chaim’s sefer (I believe the one about being drafted and fighting). After the Aderes was nifter he asked R kook to help. Thats a fact.Birska Rav didn’t even have a yeshiva and had maybe 100 talmidum. Stamar compared to aguda was tiny. Sorry the list of gedolim and followers on the other side was tiny compared to what Stamar had. That’s simply a fact.
Now some of those you list who “agreed” are nonsense. The skulner never did such a thing and nevr tooka stand. Furthermore, let me tell you something aboiut the skulner reba’s rebbe. Do you knwo he was a talmud of the Shtfeneshta reba? Ypu probably neve rheard of him because your narrow world only the kaniom were gedolim. But the shtefenshta reba had a picture of Herzel in his study. Again public knoweldge. Everyone knows that the skulner’s rebbe was a proud Zionist. In fact all Rizyhna rebas were proud zionists.
Now bobov : R shlomola disn’t mix in nor get involved in this.
Most of the other gedolim listed were on the badatz so yes they were against zionsim too. Thats true.
Chazan ish was mixed becuase he was pro voting.
The puppa, Tosha reba and vzhnitza are more modern day rabbonim and don’t count as part of this machlokos.To the commenter about Punivtcha rav and hallel. Firstly I believe on the first year he said. Secondly, The punvitcha rav was a bit of a politican who said things at all times. But if you look at him in his entity you’ll see he was pro zionsim. in 1952 by the big hanchas even hapinah of the Punvitch grounds he had all the non frum left wing cehvra haknest there some were star speakers. The eidah wrote patchkeviln and hung sings all opver the streets of meah shearim against the Punvitcha. The land of the yeshiva is from his best friend back in telz or the breakoff who became frie and an influential knesset member. So yes he was a zionist.
Now here is the thing. We all agree that- “secularism” is bad. And so once the war ended and the state of israel was formed, the opposition and fights became more about how to we deal with secularism trying to be imposed on our torah in the modern day. The question was no longer should there be a state but rather how do we fight secularism? And so in that sense it became more popular and sensible to adopt the Satmar reba shita to oppose a “secular” govt. But in as much as the actual idea of having a state before moshiach and zionsim itself, its not so clear. And you may have a list of what i count 10 or so gedolim. (ike is aid the post 1960 gedolim don’t count) however, i can list 50 that said a state is is the torah way (Not a secular one but yes a state)
I think we need to be careful about this rhetoric. We need to stay independent vs becoming loyal to one party. Not everything the republican’s do are so great either for frum jews. Take an extreme example where a Ron Paul isolationist takes charge and advocates not supporting Israel. Or for example take the neo Nazis. Now lets focus on other issues pertaining to frum jews in the USA. Is anti immigration so great for us? We like to say yes. But our community benefits alot from immigrants probably more than others without getting into details. We need them here. Another example, sure Biden is guilty for Inflation but Trump isn’t innocent either. Trump increased the deficit by $3T before covid (some via tax cuts without cutting govt spending). Trump overspent during covid with PPP and so much unemployment. Sure it was needed but it just feels like it was to sloppy. Other countries didn’t do that. Trump’s vulgar langauge, demeanor and moral values are far worse than other politcans and we can’t ignore that either.
That all being said Israel is our #1 issue. Harris already tied israel’s hand in rafah and weapons’ embargos with her silly innocent Palestinian civilians argument. And the embracement of a two state solution is all very dangerous now. This is why yes das torah said vote Trump. israel is our #1 issue. But lets not get stuck in the Trump kool-aid and say everything of the other side is horrible. If Fetterman ran instead of Harris its very possible he’d be the best candidate.
Then there are local elections. Murphy in NJ for example, worked with us during covid (contrast that to Cuomo) and fought off threats like ruse-up ocean county. And then there are progarms that yingerlit need where democrates are more gracious although lately school vouchers are a repubcoan thing.
I know we all quote R Miller who was against voting for democrat’s. But others including R Moshe zl held to vote for democrat’s at times. We know Stamar & Skver are often democrat too. Its wiser if we remain issue based and independent based on the issue at hand. Yes this time trump was the right vote. But don’t buy into the cult.
Many gedolim of hundred years ago were definitely more open toward DL ideals if not at least tolerant. It’s well known that during the 1924 kenisah gedolah someone got up and spoke again R Kook zl. The chafetz Chaim
was present and walked out on the speaker refusing to return to the convention for the rest of the days. R Kook was also close to R isser zalman, R tzvi pesach frank and of course the Nazir. His talmidim were R elishayv and R shloma zalman.
We also had many rizhna rebas who were mizrachi and even fehred tish yom hatzmut.
Imeri emes also held of R kook . Many Gera chasdim used to fight in the army.
Punvitcha Rav raised the fiag on Yom hatzmut and said hallel
Generally , gedolim were more tolerant or a bit Zionistic themselves. Yes there was the minchas eluzer and the Satmar Rebs and briska Rav were very holy and anti DL. But they weren’t the mainstream of klal Yisroel@Dr. Pepper,
The points you make are fair pointers but I think the question is about becoming an accountant today vs years ago. Here is my professional opinion as someone who debated this issue years ago and chose not to be an accountant rather another profession.
1) Those 150 credits are easier today than ever Touro college years ago. PCS does this in 18 months.
2) The idea that with hard work in other professions you can just grow and get promoted has shifted a lot in corporate. That used to be the case. Nowadays, there are far fewer promotions and hard work won’t get you to VP. You need to be politically savvy and polished which is hard for a frum Jew. Corporations got more nimble and keep a lot more at mid level roles.
3) The frum world of business has gotten so large that it’s built it own eco system of commerce. While years ago only a few select accountants left corporate for CFO, nowadays the demand for a competent worker is much higher. Opportunity in frum communities where you need not travel are ample and pay is decent.
Bottom line, for the average frum yeshiva guy accounting is just the most smoothest path albeit it has struggles and bumps. In todays days where everyone is looking to just be rich till they fall on their face, accountants is advised@yechiell,
I always found it kind of odd and almost amusing that people think Trump is old and weak like Biden. They said things like he rambles and kvetches a lot as proof. The same is true about his weight when people say he is weak because he is fat. To me it’s like so absurd. Trump was just as incoherent and crazy in 2016 or 2020 as now. Moreover, if you see the energy he has and the amount of rallies he conducted. Or his schpiel like the garbage truck and McDonalds, it’s just so ridiculous to call that low energy. Harris who is 20 years younger doesn’t have that kind of energy and sass. These are funny memes and lines but it’s shallow and just false.Here is another odd thing. Trump does have so much baggage that why make an issue over what’s not baggage. I mean he’s the guy is a corrupt con non tznuis narcissist. And the list goes on. Why make fun of this?
Lastly, despite my list of bad Trump traits, I’ll admit the is still my mad dog because as a frum Jew I want him to box in Iran and help Israel. And he should be yours too@Neville Chaimberlin Lo Mes,
1) As I told you lockdowns depend on context. How long the lockdown? At what point in time? Saving lives is vital to especially when the fire is out of control. Conservatives agree on that. It isn’t tyrnany at that point in time when everything is so overwhelmed and people were dying that quickly. Thats basisc common sense. Yes a half year in what Cuomo did is tyrrany. Thats a very different time.
2) I agree Trump did nothing on the border wall. On many issues the man is hot air fluff.
3) You are dead wrong on the shuls. By labeling them essential NYC was required to allow them to open. They did open at that point. But the limit was only ten people social distanced. They sent inspectors to check on it. But they were forced to reopen. That is a known fact. (Of course when it comes to Trump the never Trump cult is so brainwashed that they distort facts).
4) Trump was indeed not a conservative. He had no fiscal discipline and spent like a drunken sailor. The idea of tarriffs is also not conservative. Both I think wreck the economy. He didn’t cut a single program either. He ran the govt like his slot machines in AC.
5) The reason I like trump isn’t because he is a conservative. Those are my dislikes. I like Trump because of foriegn policy and Israel especially. Only someone who drinks the never Trump kool aid can’t see that he is good on that end. That doesn’t make him all good. In my opnion, the never trump frum jews can’t admit that Trump wins resoundingly on this issue. Because they know after Oct 7 this is the most pressing issue. That would mean they can’t be a never Trumper. They can’t bring themselves to say that. I on the other hand will tell you, Trump is not good on mnay issues other than israel and yes how he handled Covidwith reagrds to vaccines, fasttracking ventitlators and covid tests and yes lockdowns But I am leaving out his wreckless covid spending. where he gets an F for wasteful PPP.But to repeat no question he is better for Israel
@Participant
I could be wrong. But I think in the beginning first few months he wasn’t as go hung on getting rid of the lockdowns. Yet he pretty much enacted shuls are essential in may 2020 already. Once the summer came and things slowed dwon a bit thats when he started to be more anti lockdown. That actaully makes sense. I think the first lockdown of April 2020 was necessary. Yes maybe we could have ended it by lag bomer vs shavous. But initially you need a lock down to figure things out. Don’t forget lockdowns most definitely slow the spread since it only spreads by social interacting. The issue with a lockdown is that its a draconian measure. Generally humans need to socially interact for a whole slew of reasons. (Thats why jail is so cruel). After a certain amount of time you just can’t continuously lock people up. And so my point is for the first month or two it was vital. But after that it was uncalled for. And this is what I was referring to.@Neville Chaimberlin Lo Mes,
1) Trump peacemaking firstly opened business opportunities. Secondly, the accords I believe offered Israel greater legitmacy in this war. lastly, it kept the Sunni Arabs out of the fight even though Hamas is sunni not shite. Ideally Saudi Arabia and the UAE should be with hamas. So it did alot
2) Moving the embassy: again yes its just a building but it adds legitimacy to israel. Furthermore, it buries the arab claim that Israel is an occuiper, after all the embassy says otherwise. its a big statement and no other president agreed to move that embassy for a reason.
3) Iran deal: Well the do nothing to stop it isn’t the point. But firstly he did do something by imposing more sanctions via ripping up the deal. That’s not nothing. Secondly, it takes time to fully get tough on Iran. Don’t forget killing Soleimani was also something. And if you think he will get lighter on Iran, you have another thing coming. Iran was caught trying to plot an assassination attempt on Trump. Even if just a rumor Trump takes revenge on his enmies. Just ask the Democrat’s how scared they are of that. Trump despite his love for Putin ain’t gonna let him pump Iran. They want Trump dead.
4) Re shuls during Covid:Oh yes such a thing happened. Go research it., trump decalred houses of worship are essential. That means that accoridng to law you can’t shut down a shul. The govt decides whats essential and essential services must remain open. And Guess what I am one of those that believe lockdowns at least early on were important. So yes Trump cared about our safety and did not want to stop lockdowns. It wasn’t safe to have everything open that early on (I think later on once vaccines were out, it was another story). Nevertheless the balance that our shuls are “essential was a virtue.Two more closing points: Trump again is appointing pro Israel people both to the UN and other positions. Jared still has trumps ear on the middle east.
And my final point, I think its dishonest on your part and distruthful to not see how Trump is good for jews. It stems form your anti trump narrow close minded view. Its as bad as the lemmelach that think trump is all good. Trump is horrible for the economy and as frum jews lets not kid ourself immigration is a good thing. We all have goytas and immgrants helping us all over. We need to stop being fools and buying into all trump’s lukshein. neverthless that doesn’t change the fact that for jews Trump is better. (Harris/ Biden just forced israel to send humanitarian aid to gaza). You need to stop denying the facts just because you hate trump.Insane but good for jews and israel! thats all you need to care about
@Neville Chaimberlin Lo Mes,
So I am one of these people that neither buy into the Trump cult nor buy against everything Trump.
Here is the one issue you fail to address. How good he was for frum jews. And yes Israel but even more than that. Here is the list:
1) Abraham accords
2) Ripping up the Iran deal (you can argue about its virtues but the democratically elected leader of Israel wanted that)
3) Moved the embassy
4) Killed Soleimani
For frum jews in general
5) Freed Rubashkin and prison reform
6) during covid passed a law for houses of worship
7) more funding to private schoolsThere are more but thats a start. At the same time, he caused inflation and won’t decrease gas prices now . he will increase inflation and won’t uild that stupid wall. to your point his endless unpemployement and PPP money caused inflation. But depsite his failures we needed him for gaza. Biden’s back and forth wasn’t good. The delay and second guessing before we went into Rafah. The consistent insistence of humanitarian aid that enriches hamas. the threat not to supply weapons. Its time to get the kid gloves off and stop falling for Hamas charades about innocent civillans. They played Biden/ harris too much. You can’t play trump like that. So yes there is plenty bad but for us the good is much better
@ujm Whats out of town? Baltimore has Eichenstiens, Chicago & Cleveland I believe have their own too.
@anchuldiks
538 has Trump at 52% chance of winning@huju
Fair post. But then don’t complain that he doesn’t pay taxes. You see isn’t really wealthy.. And don’t say he is a an elitist billionare. he can’t pay his bills.As I noted in my above comment, I suspect many here are being cynical. In reality minyan factories are one of the holiest most chashuva shuls around. They are selfless people who just give and give to other jews no matter who they are. And anyone who tries to open one up for money or fame quikcly shuts it down. Its not a money maker and its a huge undertaking. And there is a need for more of them.
Close call but bottom line, I think Trump. My reason is that Trump’s strength is in his rallies. He lost 2020 bec he couldn’t hold rallies.
I like to describe a minyan factory as a shul that’s a factory of endless chesed. A shul where there is no “I” rather its us. They are generally places that care about jews from all walks of life. Take the Shomer Shabbos shul, it not only has minyanim for the kehila when its needed but it also caters to all different minhagim. There are minyanim for rabbani tam accoding to many shitas, krias hatorah at 4PM for those that couldn’t hear it earlier, minyan ethlim thursady night, minyan for Bhab, YM kotton for those and for those not fasting. Its doesn’t have signs disinviting people who aren’t dressed a ceratin way. All are welcome. And this why there is also a free soup kitchen with lots of food, collections for the poor of all walks of life, rides to all over the world for those that need etc. Basically, its what being real chasdish means as the Besht wanted. A place that cares and welcomes all jews from all walks of life. (schiners is similar). “minyan factories” are one of the most holiest special places around.
First of all this is funny that your anti trump ventting coming from that same anti Zionist ideology that you espouse. It doesn’t smell right.
I can upshlieg everyone of your arguments but time is limited. Here is the key point, at the end of the day you and I know Trump hates muslims more than jews. Its obvious. He also has his own party all very very pro Israel and he can’t just turn on his base who he loves. He was also president for 4 years already and we see how good he was. he talks alot, says stupid things, is childish etc. Furthermore, the greatest threat to israel now and the one that can kind of be solved fairly easy is Hamas. Hamas is the one that has the hostages and who commited Oct 7. Iran isn’t easy to get rid of and less direct. Even hezbollah sure they can attack but its less direct. I also think Hezbollah and Iran are less sucidal and are worried about their own country somewhat. Hezbollah can’t have Lebanon look like Gaza. Hamas is the most evil and greatest direct threat. As far as Hamas is concerned, kamala has pity on Palestinians which is what sinwar wants. Trump couldn’t give a hoot about plaestinains. Yes one mayor supported him simply out of anger because Harris is not fully on his side. But its negligble. We all know trump is the leader of muslums bans and Islamophobia . I am a fan of Islamaphobia as I think all jews should be. Because Islam is scary.@somejewiknow: HARAV Kook to you. He always held the same shita and never went off the derech. You bring a proof from one gadol R Elchanon and one alleged line which is not clear iof he said it or not. I am not the liar rather you are because you can’t fathom that there are mnay ways to torah.. You are stuck in a cult. We know the holy chaftez chaim held of him.
No it not a lie that R Isser Zalman Meltzer, & R Tzvi pesach Frank and the Nazir were all colse to him.
No it not a lie that R shlomia zalman and R Elyshaiv learned by him. Would they learn by a “rasha”?Re Zionsim as a whole, we have eyewitness testmiony from people who saw the Rizyna rebas celebrate Yom hatzmut. I heared from an eyewitness who heard R sharga fevil mendleovitch make a bracha on the medina. We all know punvitch raised the flag and said hallel.
You refuse to face the truth when its staring at you in the face. Someone who denies facts, I can’t debate. But I will continue to call you out as being untruthful
This is a very loaded question. It all depends on so many variables.
1) if you compare it to other professional “ corporate” like setting then the pay is really the same. It’s not any worse than an actuary, data scientist, IT, coder, and in some cases even a lawyer . Pay is the same.
2) Following up on #1, assuming you want to be a professional, are you the type that wants to work in a secular environment like an actuary or data scientist? Or do you prefer a “frum” setting ? If the later than accounting is the best profession. There are by far the most “frum” jobs.
3) following up on #2, because there are lots of frum opportunities you aren’t just stuck in a corporate setting. For other professions you’ll get capped at 150k-200k . (Although that comes with a nice 401k) In frum settings you can become a CFO or partial owner of a company where you’ll earn more .
4) Just beware that for a while you will struggle . You’ll earn sometimes just 60k when you start, may have to schlep into the city, loose programs and work long hours . It takes time to get to 150k even.
5) Lately there are people in other fields whether Amazon managers/ healthcare industry that do better initially but the jury is out there how high they can go and if this self created frum eco system can stick.
6) To peoples point that you need 150 credits, that’s a joke. You go to pcs and can get that in 18 months . Re the CPA it beats actuary exams or the bar.R Aron Lieb Z’l was very- supportive of nachal charedi. No its not an avoda zara. Noone is saying it kodesh kodshim. But you need to stop belittling other jews who you disagree with. When you hear R Asher Weiss speak about shailas he gets from some of these IDF soilders there is no way you can say that they are all just looking to throw off the yoke and shmad. Listen to the question from the wounded soilder missing hands who wants top put on teflin. Go look at soldiers making a syuim in gaza or daveing with a bren like you & I never davened. Its easy to be a kanoi but the facts are that there are mnay ehrlicah soldiers. And yes maybe some people do belong there if they7 can’t learn. Even if you disagree , how do you hvae the chutzpah to say those that do join or shektazim? Its an outright lie and mitzai shem ra.
@somejewiknow
i am holding myself back the day before yom kippur from shaming or name calling. But there are many gedolim that held of zionism and a jewish state. The bigger issue was “secularism” and the idea that one can throw off the torah. Its somehwat combined with zionism but not necessaily and the same is true for neologs or anyone that lessens yiddishkiet. The idea of a jewish state though was held by mnay gedlom. Lets start with the list.
1) R kook was not a fringe gadol. He was totally mainstream. the Chafetz chaim walked out of the convention in 1924 when R Kook was shamed and refsued to come back. R Kook also helped him proof read his own sefarim after R Kook shver was nifter. I know you’ll find some one line zinger where the chafetz chaim was upset at R Kook. Overall he held him in high esteem . The Alfandri zl who was a big mekubal in Yerushlaim said that the reaon the chafetz chaim didn’t make it to EY was because he would have made sholom between R Kook and R sonnenfeld. Had that happened moshaich would have come. This is a FACT and not an opinion. Aside for the C Chaim, R Isser Zalman, R Tzvi pesach Frank and many others held of R kook. Its no secret that R Elyashiv and R shloma zalamn learned by him. Even R Sonnenfeld while putting him in cherem , also sat next to him and I heard that from eyewitnesses who said both attended his parents chasna and were talking to each other. So for you to call him “kook” is a chutzpah and you need to teshiva before YK.
2) All the Ryzhna rebas held of a medina. The sadygura said hallel yom hatzmut. The shtefensht who was the rebbe of the ribnitza and skulna rebbe zl has a pic of Hertzel on his wall.
3) the punvitcha rav had all ofn them by the even hapina of the yeshiva, said haellel and raised the flag. R lazer yudel also did
4) R sharga fevel mendlevoitch ZL made bracha when the Medina was allowed to formed.Zionism according to many is yes judaism. We agree that secularism isn’t
@crazykanoiy
Re Afghanistan or the Kurdish those are not really Israel and jewish issues. I don’t think everything you quote is accurate but Ill leave that aside for now.\Lets discuss Iran, Trump did NOT allow Iran to enrich uriname That’s completely false and you know it. Trump backed out of the Iran deal. The Iran deal was a bad deal that didn’t really stop Iran. Iran was lying and building it anyhow. You forgot Bibi’s map displayed at the UN showing where Iran was building it, in areas that they didn’t let inspectors in. Trump called their bluff. Not that further proof is needed, but you see that Bibi and the Israeli intelligence didn’t like the deal. if it was truly such a great deal why did Israel hate it? The obvious is that it was a bluff. Let me remind you also that trump has the guts to assassinat a top Iranian general Solemani.. Trump has the guts to stand up to Iran.
Calling an enemy smart whether its Putin or Hezbollah doesn’t diminish anything. It just means beware of the enemy. I think the Nazis YMS were very smart too. Why does that matter or make them less evil? (Incidentally Hezbollah ain’t too smart and Hamas with “Yamus” Sinwar YMS is probably the brightest of the bunch).
Re is bashing Bibi, yes trump gets crazy like that but at the end of the day his policies are very clear. And his entire party is so pro Israel. trump loves making his base happy. (He likes Ivanaka too). Its insane to call a guy who took the time to go to the reba or reaches out so much to frum jews as an anti semite. Lamsa Harris doesn’t do those stuff. I mean his love for jews is pretty obvious.
I get that you are blinded by Trump hate. And just to be clear so that you don’t think I buy into the “cult” as you call it. Trump has alot of faults. he is no messiah. For starters , he is bad for the economy, spends too much, causes inflation. China embargos are a bad idea. I think the noise about Immigration is all just fear and blown up out of proportion. The man is corrupt through and through. A zona, con man, weird creep are all true about him. Nevertheless, to deny the fact that he is better for Jews in these crazy times is just so false on so many levels. Its almost as if there is a certain hate trump cult that blinds you into not seeing the truth either.
@Gadolhadorah
We’d like to think that you are correct. But unfortunately, this isn’t always the case especially for “in-town” schools. Its often the case that image and money play a role. Schools will often ignore the less “shtulzy” simple family even if just as ehrlich. Meanwhile they may have rules but if you have money they will take you even if you don’t follow the rules. This all being said, it seems like the letter writer’s daughter was in school already and got thrown out because pf rules. At that point its often because you don’t follow the rules. But even there sometimes schools are quick to accuse a child withoiut taking the proper caution to research.There are so many variables that complicate this discussion.
Firstly, what is the after game? I get it that the goal is lets say to stay in Gaza for another year or two. But there will be a time just like Lebanon when we tends will leave. Who controls the place then? And who says they will be better? Will it be a ” new group” who pretends to be peaceful (maybe the PA) and that will force Israel to allow more freedom but then when it turns around CVS they are even worse? Or keeping Hamas there but having a good excuse to box them in more is perhaps the option which may be the ceasefire option?
Secondly, the prisoner exchange. We like to say this was all Sinwar YMS brains. But was it also not Deif and mashal YMS?, Sure letting out prisioners can result in senior experienced operatives to turn around and kill us. But in reality there are just so many rutheless palestianins drinking the jihad kool-aid that if it’s not these animals its them.
Of course meanwhile hostages are suffering a holocaust and there is no viable way to free them by force rather CVS Hamas will kill them if we get to close
And what if we make a deal and go back in after our fellow brothers come home? The world will scream and we won’t be able to grab all the freed prisoners that have blood on their hands but we can get a nice amount.
I am not suggesting that this approach of standing frim with no ceasefire is wrong. From a torah perspective we have the mahram M rutenberg. Although R Michoel Ber Z’l did negotiate with nazis. I heard R Asher Weiss couldn’t pasken either way when asked. Ultimately I just don’t think its a simple as everyone makes itI don’t get it. Don’t you have Sundays off? Plus 20 PTO and 10 holidays ? That sums up to 82 days off? The numbers are about the same. Now I do agree that they don’t need all of Nissan off and they don’t need the week after sukkos. I think summer for a month makes sense. As others pointed out, they are students still. But everyone including you needs a summer change of scenery. But yes stam to be home from Purim till pesach shnei is ridiculous
@yeshivaguy45,
Well obviously a rosh yeshiva will say that. But there is so much to question about that.
1) How about the masses that you just know can’t and won’t be a rosh yeshiva. Let not call it masses but rather minority. Surely you just know that 25% will never be the next rosh yeshiva. We aren’t saying “no full time learning for everyone”. Just for some.
2) Are there really no rosh yeshivas in Hesder? I see so many ehrlicha holy jews in the army that you can cry. Have you heard the story by R Asher Weiss about teflin? Why can’t there be a system for more of those boys? I do think 18 is young. But I think we can work with the govt and ask that it be extended to 21-22 when boys are more developed. At that point its not so bad if boys go to “work”. They can go to the army in EY too. I just can’t understand the culture arguement. I should say that I agree it will be harder for chasidim. But even among chasdim Belz has a weaker track. Ger is still hard core but they need to wake up and cater to the weaker ones there too. I think finding a path for chasdim will be harder but not impossible if the army is willing to work with us. But the masses are so anti anyhting.Litfish as in clean shaven 5 towns? Or Litfish as in Lakewood?
I think there is a lot of conflating things here.
Whats a charedi and whats M.O.? Is the cool guy with 3 homes living in Toms River and a foodie eating out in $300 a plate restaurants every night, is that the classic charedi? Maybe they don’t have a formal “club” but they make sure every shabbos there is a kiddish with expensive booz and meatboards etc. Its the same thing as a club and its more prevelant in certain neighboorhoods than you’d admit. Or is it the yeshivisha guy with one broken down car living in a tiny apartment near his kollel? Even chasidim have that difference already (unless you are Skver). Some of those communities still have a kididsh in a house with home baked goods and grape juice still. Very simple and don’t even know what a meatboard is. (By the way now in B.P. there are exclusive shuls where its like its own club. Fancy mikvas with a big kiddish etc. Outsiders are not welcome. Its a new fad. )Now what’s an M.O, guy? Is it the Kushner type (for lack of a better term). Very modern and almost just religous because of tradition. Obviously7 huge kiddish clubs., extreme lavish lifestyles, schools are about being elite and all kinds of functions that aren’t jewish in nature. Some Coed like you speak of. But then there are the ehrlicha YU guys which exist. I worked with a Tzadik who was nifter from Covid. A VP in a large corporation, who tried to hire jews and woke up at 5 AM to learn for 2 hours daily, he had a paper where he’d write a chesbin hanefsh every night. But he was a complete YU guy. I hace come across many ehrlicha YU Teaneack guys like that.
The real ideological difference between the two factions is, do you just keep strictly halacha or is there an idea of a 5th shluchan aruch where you have extra chumras that often our grandfathers never kept. Its a very fine line though. It plays into little things like do you need a hat and jacket when davening etc. It so happens to be that tradional jews “less serious” find it easier to integrate with M.O. and henceforth a higher rate of OTD but i don’t think it defines M.O. or that its a function of M.O. They’d go to chabad which offers a judgement free space too like Kushner.
Bottom line both serious erhlicha and ostentatious shallowness exist in both comminutes and the level of religiosity doesn’t play a role. its a terrible illness in 2024 judisam and is a discusion in it of itself. Circling back to the key thread, Chasdius within M.O. is there to offer that falvor deeper than Halacha for those that seek.
@lakewhut
Did we forget that this world is temporary and we aren’t here forever when we pursue all this ostentatious lifestyles?@Always_Ask_Questions
I live in a community where all schools are overwhelmed. There is no threat to any school that Ill send to another school . And I won’t get into another school.@Kuvult
your last thought is a scary one. During the holocaust the same thing happened in the USA. Not only that but its reported by Gisee Flieshman HYD from R weissmendl ZL group that she went to collect money and warn the jews of Hungary, just across the Slovakian border. They were partying and laughing at her living in the most lavish mansions and wearing fancy furs. The only limud zechus I’d say is, during the holocuast, it was a constant continous expansion of murdering more and more jews every day. It wasn’t just about an existimng group of jews. It was also very large in scale. Of course even on jew is too large. But if you take the mass destruction that occured continuously daily during the holocuast its very differet than this war.Another way to say this is, I think we all know someone who is suffering endlessly with yena machala in the hospital. I remember when my moth a’h was terminally ill with it and in enormous pain in the hospital. I skipped every simcha and was appalled by how people can just dance and live normal loves while my mother is almost in the olim haemes and yelling in pain. Now we should feel like this about every jew. But is that what hashem wants? Whats the balance? I’d say definitely if it were a holocaust then no but when yes???
@ader
This simply not true. Many jews have gone out of their way to help and save non jews . In the 1960’s the most vocal advocate for balck rights were jews. There are numerous cases of those.
@Always_Ask_Questions
yes we never know. But I’d be shocked if a random Palestinians called israel out of the good of their heart to tell Israel where Hostage’s are. Most in the neighborhood didn’t even know. And i think you have way to much faith. More likely scenarios are that Israel pays informers. That doesn’t make palestianins good people. It makes them people looking for money. Palestinian good civillains in gaza don’t exist. Don’t kid yourself.The other two likley pointers are that
1) israel has mossad agents on the ground roaming Gaza. (No doubt in my mind)
2) Hamas messed up a little on this one because they posted a video of them so that they can brag. Israel has good satellite / AI intelligence that can decipher posted videos and figure out the location where it was taken.I think too many of you have good faith in Palestinians.
@Always_Ask_Questions, The issue with subsidizing everyone equally is that there simply isn’t enough money for that. And even if you ask people to be honest and not take the voucher many will still see themselves as needing it without realizing that if you lease two cars for 1000+, own a summer home and go on vacation etc then you don’t need it.
I get that net income is very invasive but it can be done via discreet methods without anyone even knowing your name. (You can apply a case # etc.) The real issue with net income is that whats truely net income? Net income isn’t a comprehensive enough metric. You need to look at govt programs and those that get free tuition for their other school (boy vs girls( bec they are school staff or have parsonage.
The idea that if you live a lavish lifetsyle evn if on debt tution should be paid in full is a noble idea. Perhaps the only question should be what car you drive, vacations you go on and kind of house you live in.@ujm,
Modern orthodox today from a religious perspective is really just what many litfaks or litvaka in the USA used to be. Strictly halacha and an emphasize on not being farfrumt. Obviously introducing chasidus changes the outlook@ujm,
I agree to leave medicad out of the equation. But we could clalculate the cost of medical care for the accountnat and deduct that. Premuims are set fees. At minimum deduct his premuim like taxes.
@coffee addict; A classic family of 6-7 which is the avreage jewish family is elegible for most programs earning 50K. I need to check about earned income but the other programs for sure.Also left out of the math, does that person get parsonage? So he/.she may earn only 50K but on top of that some buisnees are allowed to pay for a childs tution pre tax and not part of the perosns income. he/she may have 3 free tutions on top of programs. They also may be a rebbe and have free tution. That also needs to be counted as income as the accoutnat doesn’t get that
@ujm
Simple what you receive from the govt is “income” too.For example, an accountant earns 90K after taxes then pays 15K in health care costs. His income should be 75K.
A low income earner earns 50K after taxes but we ask him how much do you receive in SNAP, HUD , WIC & CHS and earned income? Its dollar values are all known. If that sums to 50K that means he should be assessed at 100K.Why isn’t the fair? Will the schools really do that?
@sechel83
Litfaks today are very connected to a rebbe too. Litfkas today do things on a deeper level than schar and onesh too. Everything you say is very much what “Litfish” lakewood is today. Follow the aderi torah event and its all about a simcha and depper way of life vs just the old approach.Meanwhile many chasidm today are about schar and onesh whether its baout taknos and rules that a kehila has are just in general how they teach tznuis today. Your description of chasdim is the old chasdim of 200 years ago. Read for example the sefer torahros hkodesh from the shomeri emunim about tznuis. Its more about schar and onesh . Satmar and mnay chasdim follow that.
Once again I fail to see how Baltimore correctly captures net income. i assume the mentality there is not to be as dependent upon govt progarms. But how do you calculate that in other communities where at times those on programs earn more than those not on programs?