Chaim87

Or you can have the faith and stick out and not give a flying flip.
Hashem wants you to do whats right and not do things for others. true. But a perosn has to be normal. The idea of not giving a flying flip is wrong too.8 Myabe if you the chaftez chaim then yes. But your average person has to be normal.
There is a differnece between worrying every minute what yenim will think about you vs not giving a flip. And again this talks to the idea, that the higher the rich raise the bar the higher normal moves too. Yes techncially if I didn’t give a flip id just have shnaps and cake by a vort and finished. But now it cost money and its strain.

@ashergg
1) We don’t live in a cave. Kids see and hear things. No matter how “torahdik” and simple we are, often kids will want more. You can try to impress whatever you want on them but society moves. Kids go to school and have friends. The nature of a person is to want more. Its not just the home in isolation. So when your kids see its cool because that6 rich guy had freid at a pool side BBQ (with a syuim of course) or that a rich guy made a fancy wedding, you can be torahdik and simple and say oh thats not what we aspire for. But the lure is still there. You can’t stop it. There are so many torahdik homes I know of whose kids are the biggest pursuers of gahsmyus. Some are very famous and wealthy. You think there fathers didn’t try to teach them better? Its abig world out there with a big lure. The home can’t fight society. But the society as a whole could chnage form the top down.
2) Yes as parents we have yetzer haras too. You can’t demand or expect we be perfect. yes we are mature bnut deep inside the allure of fancy things is cool by us too. Sure we should work on it but its a temptation that we must work in.
3) Yes you can’t deprive your child of whats social norms. If the bar is raised that high, too bad ytou can’t just dop things like they did in the 1980’s. Its not what hashem wnats and your kids will be mifits. Thats the hard facts.

So this all points to that yes no matter how torahdik tone you set, there are extreme limtations. And the more the world moves higher in gashmyuis the more your limited in that. I don’t buy the arguemnt that if you just work on it at home, then all is good. The point is no we need to work on it as a society while also working on it at home. Without the society chnages your impact will be very limited.

@nevuah
I dsiagree with your premise. Hashem does not want you to stick out like a saw thumb. And its also bad for your children to be a misfit. An exmaple I sue all the time is a vort. It would be much cheaper to just serve shanps and cake in your home. But its just weird. Like I keep on sayiing, there is a gray area . To a certain extent, yes we need to hold back and not run to to everything everyone else does but within normal standards still. Thats just life. The more the rich push the standards the more it becomes to normal to ignore. The hostess package thing is another point. Yes I can just send homemade chocolate chip cookies as a thnaks for hosting my guests but its a weird thing to do. And your neighbor may nit host for you next time aside for just stikcing out

@johnnysmith
why a zero sum game? Just shut down any new chat about zionism. There should be one chat where they can go to and freely debate. But they shouldn’t be allowed to highjack the other chats and should be blocked from posting anyhting about zionsim. Everyone just stick to their own chat. It not a reaosn to close the whole coffee room down

@nevuah
Fair point and I am ready to move two inches not just one inch. But the problem won’t be solved unless the rich guys stop. Just telling me to move that one inch won’t help. Furthermore, the needle is moving so much, that me moving one inch is still 5 inches more than what used to be because the norms are so high.
Ill repeat that yes we are gald to tone it down but you can’t ruin your childrens lives and you don’t want them to cry to oyu by their simcha if its nebachdik. Its not fair to them. And so yes a little lower but up to a point and when the neddle is so far ahead thats hard. As an example, its now very rude and inconsiderate not to give hostess gifts when a neighbor hosts for you. It would be socially off to send bubbys cholcolate chip cookies as a gift. This is the new norm. This is just one of many.
My main point is, that its the rich guys that need to stop and we need to talk about them. Don”t white wash it by saying just talk about us

Sadly they basically do sing Yamin when the rich guy walks in. The idea that torah and being lavish don’t mix together, is almost completely lost in yeshivas. And the idea that as ling as we teach people to be torahdil that naturally falls in place is misguided. Furthermore, the yeshivas themelves compete who can have a fancier building. And then when a shul makes a syuim on Makkos in Lublin, touring Europe foe a week in luxury what does that teach? I get it kovod hatroah and we should be proud that we are making a syuim. Its also better than touring the bahams. But lets get real. This is where your idea that torah doesn’t go with being lavish is gone. Yeshivas and rabbonim need to start a movement like they did with the internet to put an end to this

@ashergg
Sadly I don’t think that’s true. Lately its very in style to be torah vegdulah. People today like to be torahdik and “spritual” yet live lavishly. They answer it up saying this is part of being bnei melachim or hashem wants us to live like this. Its no longer true that those who live spirtual are detached from being lavish. That concept is gone. Thats exactly what must be emphasized again. Its fake spirtual that really has the opposite effect but it gets masked into torah vgedula or words like “bal habatish” as if thats a spritual thing.

@In my humble opinion, I humbly disagree with your humble opnion. Even the people that can afford it, its wrong. Let the money stay in their pockets vs being loud and splashy. Its a detachment from hashem, brings down the entire level for others that see it etc. I listed the reasons above. Let me repeat what I have always said. There is no such thing as “I have a right” or “I am entitled”. We are jews and everything we do is for hashem,. Even if you give 1M to tzedaka the night of a wedding, you are NOT entitled to spend 1M in your wedding. Very nice you did a nice miztva and you’lll get schar. That’s not a free pass. One has nothing to do with the other. I don’t like this blame game that oh its the people that can’t afford’s fault. Wrong its the people that can afford too. The issue isn’t just spending money on what we can’t afford. Its about simply being luxirous for no reason.

@nevuah, similar to the above. Its not just about the people who can’t afford it. Even if you could afford it, its just nor the right thing to do. Its not the jewish way, and brings everyone down. I can elebaorate. I did that in above commnets. But we have to get this out of our head that oph its only bad for the people that can’t afford it. No being a show off and partying is bad for everyone.
Now to your other point, there is the idea of only what you can afford and there is the idea of yes conforming. A person has to be functional. You can’t be a werido and making a wedding in a shtibel with shnaps and cake bec you can’t afford it. And its wrong to do that to your children. So yes you need to be normal and conforming is indeed a jewish cconcept. To say one needs to be dysfucntional is just wrong too. So now if the society norms is now to give tomau to guests, send hostess packages to all hosting, invite outsiders for dessert on firday night etc, its very hard to sasy don’t do that. The line between conformoity and lavish gets more and more gray when rich dudes go over the top. But the answer isn’t to say don’t conform. And to repeat again, even if you could afford it, its wrong to be lavish and you aren’t entitled
”

@nevuah
The start with yourself idea whitewashes the issue very much. Most of us middle class aren’t tyring to make over the top. We are just trying to be gracious and practical. It also doesn’t really set the general tone like the wealthy do. It really doesn’t solve the issue. The issue will still remain that the welathy fancy stuff are against everything judiasm stands for

No blue shirts or gary hats CVS. Only tight pants and the top shirt button open!

@ashergg
Re solutions. There is no magic. But here is the start.
First, in my shul when keddashim got of hand the rav called the next rich guy who was planning on mkaing a simcha (way in advance) and he asked him can you do me a favor just this once. Don’t make it fancy and just make it regular. Once the wealthiest guy made a simple kiddush everyone followed. The rabbonim should be proactive and call the wealthy bal simchos and work with them to tone it down in a pleasant fashion. I wouldn’t suggest taknos becuase that feels like just rules that people hate. But personal encouragement to the people that set examples work alot better from a top down approach. it also then need not be a one size fits all like taknos. Its more about a general tone on a more personal basis.
Second, a stronger emphasis by the rebbaim and leaders of our youth that our goal should be to shun gashmyuis. Just like even touching a smart phone is treif so is general gashmyuis, fancy vacations and trips. The aderi torah event should not allow any bochrim in the boxes. The whole concept of boxes is a bdieved because sadly we need to honor the rich, but its not a place we aspire to be. Boys should be banned from being on that floor. That includes the aderi torah supporters own son let alone his nephews freinds dog owner who tags along. When we grew up the dias with the rich guset of honors was off limits for the bochrim

The answer to this question is simply sadly that the world and charedi judiasm became much more ghetto like and boxed in. They used to be more open minded and less hot headed. The yeshiva world for sure was less yeshvish. Lately It became chasdish and more closed off.

@Cheski
With all due respect thats a very misguided statement. First of all the idea that” preaching about how others spend $$” is somehow not allowed is wrong. We are jews and live for a higher reason. If its wrong, it my business just like any other averio or just like using unflitered interent etc where its my buisness what you do in your own home bec we are jews.
To the main point, There is a very big difference between being ostentatious and following society norms or even being a little more “bal Habaisth”. We aren’t on the level of chafetz chaim and i think he’d say so too. We need to still live in Olam hazah and we humans who need to enjoy it and feel presentable too.

Furthermore, there are rabbonim (albiet mostly chasdish) who encourage being gracious and making a nice simcha because if you get to live nicely you will give more to others vs just living simple. That being said, i confirmed with them (Yes I spoke to them about it) that it doesn’t mean live over the top. There is ostentatious and there is just being bal habatsih and gracious. I know you’ll ask where do you draw the line? yes its a gray area and 5th shulchan aruch is needed. But without pointing to specific examples, we know when its over the top. When you know , you know. And the rich guy knows it too. He knows he isn’t just being more gracious. A person has to be emes and we must call it out and say we disagree as its a terrible machala.

Yes as jews we do have a right and a must to tell people how “to spend their money” or shall I say Hashems money that they are a shilach for. And the reason why we must, I outlined above. Because its my business too

I think I have written something similar in the past but Ill repost since this is a topic so dear to me.
1) The idea that its theri money and they give tzedaka so they are entitled to be ostentatious. A jew is never “entitled”. The money isn’t yours and its form hashem. You won’t take the money with you. When you splash like that, are you doing something that brings you closer to Hashem or not? What do you think the chafertz chaim would say? Do you think its what hashem wants? It makes no difference if you can afford it or if you give 1 zillion to tzedka. Jews are never entitled to be ostentatious. Its a detachment
2) But mind your own business or just don’t go if you don’t like it. Two things on that point.
A) We have children who see it. Why do think their sheifa becomes when they see fancy destinatiion weddings etc. Oh I get it, its all about what we teach in the house and then they won’t be jealous. Like we live in a cave? They don’t talk about in shul and yeshiva? Its not all over the place in your face? Its not cool and glitzy?
B)Lets say I am jealous because its cool and I am a human being subject to a yezter hara. Sure I should work on myself. but you don’t think sticking it in everyone’s face makles that extra hard? We all know when it comes to tznuis in dress that a lady can’t walk around not tznuis and just see men should work on themsleves. people have yetzer haras. There is somehting called tznuis in our every day actions too. That very much includes our broader lifestyle should be tznuis.
3) It definitely raises the bar. But wait if I can’t afford it, I should just not to do it. Yes but it trickles down to rasing the standards for a the avarage simcha too. The classic example I offer is the new fad to invite people for dessert by a shabbos sheva brachos. Now I need to pay for a party planner and sweet table. When we grew up (when ziady was young and lived in flatbush Brooklyn) this wasn’t a style. Now it is. How does it come to be? Because if yenim does a fancy hotel the next guy at least does a fancy local shabbos invitying crowds. And then the next guy does less fancy but still needs to be normal and invite people for dessert because thats whats done. The same is true foe tommeua (its expected now) and hoostess gifts. So we natrually raise the bar. Please don’t come and tell me oh one should just ignore it and do we he can afford. It doesn’t work like that. Noone wants to be a socially off neb. We don’t do vorts in a house with cake and shnap now, and we can’t do that with shabbos sheva brachas or other society norms either.

The bottom line is the wealthy are not entitled and have to lower the bar. Make it nice and batumpt but not over the top

@anotheryid
TAG won’t filter a CAT even if you lock every app and don’t use even waze. Its more treif than a smart phone

@ujm
But TAG won’t filter every phone to make it only filtered access. for example if you have a CAT phone they won’t filter it because it “feels” like a smart phone. So its not just the filter. It has become this weird ideology that if it feels like something its worse than the thing.

@Always_Ask_Questions,
I come from a different cut. i don’t think its such a sin to hire illegal or underage workers. (I know dina dmlachusa. There are heterim.. So sorry morally I don’t buy into that being bad.)
All Ill say the game of my business which can’t be in a small group but considered the most squarish profession is still to kind of chase after the big bucks even at the expense of risking customer money and losing your pants. In my mind that more immoral then heping a 16 year old illegal who is poor and looking for a few bucks (assuming you treat him good)
Even Dr’s are a scam already. They are all owned by PE and whether they like it or not, their services need to accommodate profits vs care. They are well intended but its the name of the game today and only way to survive. So highly educated field but sadly not 100% honest either (Not the dr’s fault as thats what the game is, But its sad)
Again nursing homes are just as ehlich as finance. no need for college necessarily and it really depends on your tachunas hanefesh. Its not all just dishonest. this incldues the billers, and those that service etc..

@Always_Ask_Questions
I have friends who are admins. Its a flat salary not dependent on sales.
You can’t do thinks that are weird and outcasts as society. Thats not done in charedi ciricles. We aren’t weirdos

Like I said , I disagree and think camp is a necessity as part of a child’s chinuch and well being , aside for the need of structure .
Most nursing home administrators are just doing their job and not busy with the chachmas you mention . That’s just one of many. I don’t see it less honest than a lawyer.
Overall, the point remains that the degree won’t help schools stay open. The real cost per child is roughly $12k . That’s $60k for 5 kids. If your take home pay is $120k after taxes, in corporate the math doesn’t add up. And so whether you have a degree or not the schools are subject to donors. Sadly, the schools such as this one that don’t have wealthy parents are stuck

@Always_Ask_Questions
Sorry but its the way I was raised to. Camp is and always was essential for a childs well being.
Fair point re the 401K.
Nevertheless, my overall point, leaving out camp and weddings. 200K isn’t enough for a normal jewish family unless one also moves to a more affordable small jewish town.
And if i wanted the life where I cut corners, skip camp and leave like a complete simpleton, I would have stayed in kollel and on programs which is totally honest if I am student earning very little. But I chose a “career” for a better life. And its a struggle.
My point remains that working the corp life isn’t as rosy and reliable as you think. You may or may not do better in a frum field like nursing homes. There is no right or wrong. But one thing Ill just say, the myth that our parents had that college degree jobs bring comfortable and reliable parnasa is not necessarily true. its a very old fashioned way of thinking. And either way the Bnos Penina problem where i as a parent can’t pay full tution for 6 kids is very real. With 200K you can’t pay the true full cost of 72K (12 K per child)