Chaim87

@crazykanoiy
Trump’s talking to Hamas doesn’t mean anything. That’s Trump. he does those things all the time. At the end of the the day, Trump also tweeted last night that only sick people keep dead bodies and blasted them again. Overall, I think that report is being blown way outo fproportion compared to his overall policy and behavior.

Re The Trump Gaza plan. No its not pure nonsense. Its just that you are such a Trump hater that you can admit the truth. And what I mean to say is lets start with the theory. In theory the most sensible thing to do to a city that’s run by a cult and completely destroyed is to rebuild in a way where the people are not dependent on its cult leader. Now you ask but hey the arabs will never agree and neither will hamas so whats the point? The point is that it moves the needle in terms of negotiations. The Arabs realize that can no longer just do business as usual where its rebuilding the same terror infrastructure again to get destroyed. the gulf nations have no interest in contributing to that. It squeezes Hamas further. They can’t play the same charade again.

To your other point, but it didn’t move Hamas. Firstly i think it got them to phase one. Biden/Blinken did a great job and outlining a plan but Hamas refused to bring it to the finishline. Secondly, it takes time but so far what its doing is, its squeezing Hamas. Now Hamas is on a high because just by showing they survived they won. But once they need to govern and need to come onto others, the more Trump threatens and shows the world how monstorus they are, the less sympathy the world has.

Your point about Zelensky is a mute weak point, We know trump is transactional. trump gains nothing from supporting Zelensky. On the other hand form Israel the man gets billions and billions of dollars, his entire base is pro israel from the evangelicals to the Aidelsons. Just from the transactional point of view the comparison is just a very poor analogy.

@ HaKatan
Again because others disagreed that means that R solvetchik doesn’t count and it’s an arutzas. Yup same with R kook same with eim habonim. Oh and if Satmar Reba dismissed the arguments that makes the other side keflra?

Your arrogance holds no bounds and you are full of hot air. When only your side counts and everyone else is dismissed as an am haratz or kofer you are nothing more than a loud bully. You can fairly argue that these gedolim were mostly das yachid and we shouldn’t pasken like them although I am not sure that’s accurate. But to say with certainty is just your arrogant bully lies .

We must not get intimidated and resist hakatan bullying.
Zionism is NOT factually against our Torah. According to many holy Jews Zionism is al pi Torah. We have Torah sources and Mesorah which is stronger than Torah sources. Of course the biggest proof is that the religious Zionist remain strong shomeri Torah umitzvas. That’s the siman.

@crazykanoiy
I am sorry but those reports are sketchy at best. Its also just talks and I don’t see anything substantive at of those kinds of things. You have to be completely baised and dishonest not to see how good trump is for Israel so far. After the Trump Gaza plan, new arms shipments, revoking bans on ben Gvir etc. How can you not see that? Especially the Gaza plan is finally a major break trough. No other president had the guts to stand up to the arabs and say we aren’t falling for your charades and games anymore. Gaza is a big cult with 2M terrorists. Trump did that. Thats a huge gain for Israel. We also have his first term to go by and reflect his record on israel.

To be clear, I am totally anti Trump on nearly every other issue aside for maybe his transgender fight. When it comes to immigration, Musk, fiscal policy, his crazy Tarriffs or even just the character and type of person him and his ilk are, its revulsive That’s not how a MAGA kool-aid drinker thinks, But to.deny ow good he is for Israel even compared to Biden-Blinken (who were pretty close to second to best) is just completely dishonest.

@Baruch D
I am from the few people that liked the Biden deal too. I am even thankful for all Biden has done . But there is a difference. The same deal was under Biden but under Trump there is a no nonsense clause. Trump ain’t falling for the peaceful Palestinian suffering charade . He knows they are all terrorists. Trump is also willing to send the heaviest weapons with no restrictions. Those things matter

@somejewiknow,

LOL once again you and your silly kanios hot headedness. We can go to the other forum to debate zionsim. Thats not for here. The point is lamsa right now the arabs want to kill us. If we gave up the state tommorow believe me they’d come after you so viscously. Its not safe to hand over the keys to blood thirsty monsters. So practically speaking right now, we need Trump to save lives. And if we need to gibe him a piece of real estate so be it. You should be on my team on this one. This isn’t a zionist debate anymore.

We don’t sav Jewish lives by fighting back? Are you for real? You got crazier by the day? Should we hand out candy to Hamas??? POarctcilly speaking what would you do now? Even Satmar wouldn’t say to give back the keys now. You are either a radical NK or just drank too much lachaims? Are purimdik already? You really think if we give it all back Hamas will be nice to us??????

Of course jews are at danger but not the level that everyone should get up and leave EY. There are differnet levels and this is a pretty serious level. Rabbonim didn’t say everyone should pick up and leave Europe after its mnay programs and murders either. You don’t necessarily say to leave. (In fact your Reba told people not to leave during the holcaust nor run away because that would have meant cooperating with zionsists oy vey. Even though R michoel ber zl begged him to. of cours ehe himslef did end up on kastner. But thats a side point)

The “whole jeiwsh world”? I walk in shuls all over Lakewood BP Monsey and they say tehlim that Israel succeed (Not necessarily the chaylim but overall everyone be safe) Noone is praying for thier downfall other than a few nuts in torah vyirah. Go put on your plasteinains kerchif and dance with Weiss YMS yelling free Palestine.

@Always_Ask_Questions
Firstly yes R kook is relevant. The point is that even if one tzadik said that Zionism has a source in our Torah, no one can get up and say that no one ever held of Zionism and that’s it’s Hersey. The point is exactly that. It’s ok to say we can’t pasken like a minority but you can’t call it 100% Heretic. That’s the point . Hakatan thinks he knows more than R kook or that the rebbe of R elyshav and R shloma zalman doesn’t count.

Re your next question, what do I mean by they all supported Zionism? Very simple . They all supported the idea that Jews should have its own state in Palestine run by Jews. Did they support secularism ? No . That’s where it gets tricky. At the end of the day they opposed the fact that Ben gurion was such a rasha as well. And soon I’ll get to what changed.

The Ashkenazim joined the govt way before R shach . The imeri emes sent R itcha Meir levin to the kneeset. R shach came into the picture after Beagin won. Began was a good Jew who was not out to shmad the frum. (Aside for the fact that he refused to shoot at the rasha ben gurion who tried to kill him)Began supported the Olim hatorah which then drew R shach in. In essence the askneazim always were part of the Knesset. The difference was if they can take minister portfolios. That only the sefardim allowed.

@HaKatan
By the way till the machlokos R chaim ozer and Rubenstein the mizrachi was part of the agudah party. They didn’t see zionism as heresy even if they disagreed. It wasn’t until the chaftez chaim protested due to the lack of respect shown to r chaim Ozer in vilna, that the mizrachi split. (That was only the last 20 years of before the war) Again not “all gedolim” were against zionsim

@HaKatan
You don’t get to decide whats patehtic and whats not. You don’t get to decide who is relevant and who isn’t.

For the hundredth time, rizyhin isn’t a story. its a psak with strong mesora
No we don’t need a sefer.
Yes R Kook And EHBS is relavnt.

Judiasm doesn’t follow your made up rules.

@ HaKatan
It’s not an interpretation of a story . Stop
Lying. It’s facts and mesora. Every rizyna chusid knows that they all held of Zionism. It’s not a story. Stop saying the same untruths over and over again. FYI you do know what Torah vodaath is named after rabbi rines mizrachi yeshiva in Europe ! lol! Zionism has strong roots in our Torah with Mesorah

@HaKatan
They only fail because you decided they don’t count. Yes its what Satmar did too. Anyone who disagreed doesn’t count and isn’t charedi. Thats not how our torah works. You don’t get to make up who counts and who doesn’t and we won’t get intimated by bullies. So to be clear, both R Kook and the Stmar reba counts. So does Eim habonim simcha. Stories that are rooted in clear facts count too. Zionism accoding to many is al pi torah.

Just to be clear stories can be subject to interpretation just like sefarim can be. But when the story happened in public and there is no debate what the intention was then it’s different story (pun intended) and not subject for interpretation. So when a holy Reba fers tisch for Yom hatzmut, that’s what he did . He did that in public and was clear why and when he was doing it. What’s there to interpret? Furthermore, it wasn’t the only time he did that kind of thing. Over and over again across multiple Reba’s they declared Zionism is the Torah way. It’s mesora and psak and not just a story.

It’s almost Shabbos but one more note. When the Satmar Reba wrote his sefer the issue was kind of not nogai for many charedim anyhow. In other words the state was here to stay. What’s the point in debating anymore if we should have created a state or not. It’s a done deal. Now there is a new issue, how to deal with its secular influence and shmad which we all hold is totally against our Torah. And so why write a Sefer to debate the Reba on history

@somejewiknow
Its interesting how you feel the need to start a new thread after being overwhelming challenged by so many. But once again I will not stand here and let you make these broad biased untrue statements. I will also continue to say that you don’t get to make the rules or decide who is a gadol, what is halcaha or how a gadol needs to respond to the question. nor if you need a gadol or a tzadik is enough.

“As outlined in Shulcha Aroch, a “Gadol” is someone who is greater in expertise and/or influence (students). A “Gadol Hador” would be someone who is the top-tier in his generation as per that measure. Again, this is not me, this is Shulchan Aruch.” The fist half of this tsatement is true. The seocnd half you made up once again. it doesn’t say that gadol is “top tier” in his genertaion. Thats your own made up stuff

Now for the record, there were meaningful resposnes to Vyaol moshe. But you discredit them. Only yours count. Furthermore, there were mnay more reponses, however, due to the nature of Satmar those responses were silenced. i know of warehouses burned down by the mafia. To be clear the reba zya was a very holy man but the times were different. He was fighting all kinds of secular movements both before and then the rebuilding after the war. In his overzealousness to ensure purity in its highest form with no compromises he naturally and via chasdim silenced those that disagree. The enovoirnement built to challenge Satmar made it very difficult. Just ask Kluasneberg and they will tell you. So your goal post that one needs to respond to Vyoal moshe is an unrealistic ask. It was nearly impossible to respond and peoples hands were tied. Its also clear that Vyoel moshe was wirtten with emotions too. Sure it has sources but what you chose as a source vs what you leave out etc. Its not void of emotions.

The above paragraph went with the assumption that one needs to respond to Vyaol Moshe. But here is the truth,
1) Its hashkafa and not Halcha.
2) One need not respond to a hashkafa question.
3) A response need not be in a sefer and need not be with deep torah sources if the person is a gadol. the resposne can be with actions and words like proclaiming in public that its an aschlata degula.
4) Stories itself aren’t the best proof. But if the story is from 100’s of eyewitnesses thats proof. Furthermore, when the same story happens over and over again thats proof. Yet even further, when its not just a story, but clear words said over from a gadol in public o0ver and over again thats like a “psak” even if not backed up. in deep torah. (A story is when a tzadik raises the Israeli flag or cleans the streets of Tel aviv with his hands bec of kedushas haretz. A psak is when a tzadik says this is hschata degula or when he ferrs tish lkvod Yom hatzmut, thats also such a strong story that its a psak with no other interpretation.)
5) Generally to be anti zionist, the only way to do that is to write a sefer and be vocal. how else can you be anti? But to be pro zionist one can do actions in support of that without writing a sefer. So the whole playing filed is different.
5) This leads us to the holy Rizyna rebas. They were the “top teir” in the generation, very knowledgeable in kol hatoprah keula and had 1000’s of chasdim. Ture leaders. They were almost all pro Zionist. Its not just a story here and there. They did actiosn and said psakim over and over again clearlly stating this. its hashkafa and no sefer is required.

As I noted many more gedolim whether Rizhyin or others said over that they could have answered all of the Satmtar reba zya arguments and had torah sources to refute them. But they chose not to write a sefer. And i think most people can understand why. I also heard form tzadikim albeit I agree not a gadol that israel is a haschlata degula and segvri kelim. Should we believe somejewiknow or Mosheh wolfson zl?

P.S. I have no proof but I’d bet if the zionsists were not secular the Satmar reba zya wouldn’t have been so vocally against them. That was the real issue. Lastly, the way we know if a hashkafa is al pi torah is to look at future generations. Lets look at shabsi tzvi, reform and conservative movements. How did the movements grow? Are the future generations shomer torah umtizvas? Now look at other disputes such as chasdim vs misngadim. Now look at religous zionists. look how shomer torah umtizvas they are. in some ways more then Satmar.

@somejewiknow
Nope nobody established it as a halcha. it was hashkafa. of course Stamar made it into a hard core halacha but so what. A kol Korah doesn’t make it halacha. Furthermore, the imeri emes never gave a kol kora against zionism. It was against secularism and cooperating with secularism. (particularly r Kook). Furthermore, he states R kook was a gadol. But again key point, a kol korai doesn’t make things halacha.

@somejewiknow
The mistake you make is that you establish this is a Halacha question or that one needs to defend it in a Sefer. There is no requirement in our Torah that another gadol needs to defend his hashkafa or approach. It’s not a core of Judaism. Centuries ago sefarim didn’t even exist . But that’s beside the point. A tzadik need not defend himself. I think the rizyna Reba’s were just as much gedolim and knowledgeable. It’s not a story up for interpretation when it’s declared in public like that over and over again. (This is also beside the point that as it pertained to Zionism people were scared to debate the Satmar Reba or they’d pay the price. I am not saying it was him CVs but his chasdim were tough when you tried to dispute him. I know chashuva yidden who tried.)

@
yankel berel

Bullies make up their own rules. Some Jew decided that it’s halcha and there is shulchan aruch. And if you argue you need to defend yourself in Sefer. And then he decides who is good and who is not. He makes things up.

Our Torah tells us with hashkafa you listen to your gadol and it need not be that he says a thesis from Gemara. If he is a tzadik and a gadol that’s enough. (Of course there are plenty of answers that they have but some Jew won’t accept that, so let’s keep it simple and say when a tzadik says a hashkafa thing that’s what it is)

@somejewiknow

Once again you make up your own rules. You decided that a gadol needs to document or write a psak in sefer and or needs to explain themselves with sources. All of that is baloney.
Furthermore, you decided this is a “halacha” issue where you need to quote “poskim” and “:shulchan aruch”. thats your second made up rule.
Lastly, you make up who is a “gadoL’ and who isn’t.
The only “tipshus” as you say is that you think we fall for your bullying and that we have to abide by your rules and guidelines.

So here is the truth.
1) Zionism is hashkafa not halacha.
2) You don’t need a “psak” that qoutes Poskim and brings down sources.
3) I have no clue who is a Gadol and who is just a tzadik. But one of those two is enough.

Here is what we do know. All Rizyna rebas held zionism has a source in our torah. They were almost all tzadfikm and many were gedolim. I’d say they quoted sources too but that’s irrelevant. They said in front of 100’s of people that zionsim is a haschlata deguala and a good thing. When its done in front of 100’s of people over and over again, thats not a “story” open for interpretation. Thats a psak and mesora. And its not important to quote sources.

P.S. how many people on here see commonalities between haktan and somejew? It makes you wonder if perhaps a bully tactic of spamming is being used.

@haKatan
My prior post was right before Shabbos and rushed so let me clear the air yet again.
Lets say R Moshe zl paskened in public in front of 100s maybe thousands of people that time clocks are not allowed on Shabbos, (that’s what he held) wouldn’t that be clear or is that subject to interpretation and is it just a “story”. When the rizyna rebas said it’s haschalata dgeula it was in front of 100s of people. That’s not a story, it’s a clear psak.
Furthermore, one “story” is subject to interpretation. But when 10s maybe 100s of the same stories are told and that translated into clear actions like ferimg tish on hey iyur, that’s a pattern with no other interpretations. This aside for more first point.
Lastly, I did speak to a ritzyna Reba son who knows all about the Satmar Reba Sefer and that doesn’t change their shita. So to your last point about me going into the Reba, and asking I essentially did. Now your turn why don’t ask zalman Leib or Aron what riyhin held? You could ask their sons to I think you won’t because you are dishonest and won’t admit your narrative that not everyone holds like your hot headedness

I’ll just say this again. There is no rule that sefarim are needed to support an issue of hashkafa. Only people who bully make up their own rules . (And then of course discredit anyone who did write what they don’t like)

Mesora is just as much of a proof if not more than sefarim. And similarly one story or vort may not be proof but tens of stories told by thousands of eyewitnesses over and over again establishes a clear proof that’s greater than a Sefer. Henceforth all of rizyan who were gedolim

Since the attention span is small, I am resorting to simple posts.

There is no obligation nor source that we need “sefarim” for something to be al pi torah. Mesora is even stronger (especially if its not a halcha question rather hashkafa at best). You also don’t need what modern day calls a “gadol” to decide. A mesora based on multiple tzadkim are just as strong. And if the mesora is backed by actions and eyewitnesses testimony of course that keeps it going.

We have strong tzadkim in Rizyhin that all held zionsim not secular zionsim but zionsim is based on the Torah. This is cahsdisu with thousands of chasdim and tens of tzadkim.

haktan = somejew cannot deny rizyn’s mesora

@HaKatan
No its not nonsense. I don’t need to find a sefer. I found MESORA. Speak to Riyzna chasdim. (You made up this rule that I need to find a sefer).

RE EHS using “emotions”. And what do you think the holy satmar reba used? You think that was free from emotions?

i will ask the readers if they should trust HaKatan or R Moshe wolfson zl who said it was haschlata degula and shiveri kelim. Who was/is a bigger tzadi? you tell me if its “nonsense”?

@Non Political: I think R Hutner meant exactly how he said it. People nowadays think that we must follow Brisks ideals and style because they are pure. Noone is saying they aren’t pure. But they don’t decide everything in yddishkit. There are differing opinions and approaches that count as well. In other words the torah doesn’t stop on Har grezim. Just because the holy Birska rav zl held or did something doesn’t mean that klal yisroel has to do it.

You also talk way too deep for me. You are over analyzing zionsim with these deep thoughts. You need to take a step back. Most don’t and I don’t think ever thought so deep. Why is this like a PHD thesis can of ideology. Forgive me for saying you are getting carried away. So is Hakatan.

What is Zionism in simple terms? its that us jews have homeland run by other jews who won’t kill us like the Nazis YMS did and that those who are persecuted like the Soviet jews can be welcome. And that it be in Eretz yisroel. Thats all it is. Why are you making so many torahs out of this? And this in it of itself is not kefira. Many gedolim and ehrlicha jews hled of this such as Ryzhin and others.

Now was it abused by secular jews to throw off torah and try to shmad frum jews? yes it was. But its two separate things. the ideal itself which is to have a homeland and those running it who are ant torah. You’ll find that even people like the Imeri emes only opposed it because of the people running the show. Not because the idea of a home land was bad.

To recap: Rizyna chasdim always held ZIONISM = TORAH. And Mesora counts more than a sefer. Interestingly, that Hakatn won’t dispute that undeniable fact. Also interesting that R Moshe wolfson zl said different than hakatan . Who should we listen to?

@Always_Ask_Questions,

The other thing @HaKatan misses which talks to your point is that you always need to look at how religious and toradik a sect is after they introduce a controversial idea. So especially did they stay as jews who are shomer torah and mitzvas?

Take for example Shabasi tzvi’s followers, what became of them? They became muslims. Now lets look at Reform jews? Nebach they intermarried and there is nothing of them. Now lets take conservative jews. The movement started as a means to keep people religous. The heter to drive to shul shabbos was because “out of a town” families were driving to the mall anyhow so at least draw them to shul and be mekrav them. Many of its rabbonim in the 1960’s were frum observant jews who never dreamed of chilul shaboss. In fact when Sol Liberman invited Rabbi Finkelstein to his vacation home in marthas vineyard, Finkelstein refused because it was the 9 days and he was worried that his children would go swimming if he went on vacation in the 9 days. Thats how frum they were. Yet what happened to the following generations? Did the conservative movement succeed in making jews more religous? Well lets look at where it is today.

Now lets look at other controversies, Where talmidim of R Yonason Ebishitz accepted now? I;d say yes. how about the whole controversy of chasdim that were put in cherem and viewed as borderline kefira at the time? How about R Hirsch’s idea of torah em derech ertez? All those ideals and more we look at its offspring and we see did it stick? Did it bring people closer to torah judiasm?

Now lets look at religious zionism. Are its people keeping shabbos, kashrus, learning torah and being shomer torah umtizvas today? Look around and see. i think its even stronger and they are more ehrlich then they once were. Can one possibly call them not jews or kofrim? I’d bet even the briska rav or satmar wouldn’t really think so despite all that they say on the surface.

HaKatan, has a very unique way of twsiting things into a pretzel. He has very narrow rules as to what counts and what doesn’t. Everything is a deep thing and if you can’t twist out of a his pretzel you must be wrong. Some things in our torah are not just what it says. Its what you see too. The obvious stares at us in the face. Of course you can’t just go with feel good judaism . if something is assur and clearly stated you can’t defy that. But there is no clear out issur that says One cannot be zionsits. He is inferring it with lgoic. This is where you need to draw a line and follow your rav.

P.S. our torah isn’t limited to Brisk and the Hungarian R Hillel Lichtnestien talmidim. (Nowdays its kind of one group). As R Hutner said about Briska rav, “The torah is nisht gegebn uf har grezim” and I’d add neither was it given on ” Har Yoel”.

@ lbj
It’s actually the opposite. The anti Zionists didn’t like that the Zionists were secular and creating a country not religious. Nebach tons of Jews became irreligious. So they were mad. And rightfully so. This was also a time when the R Hillel Kamai Aka Lichtenstein built a new following around the idea of an “aintailing” separation from the neologs. Being chasdish all of a sudden meant building walls around you and strong kehilas. So now when Zionism came along and posed a threat they came up with Gemaras that were a chiddush so that they can upshlog Zionism. They took R Hirsch zl 3 shavous which was a very big chiddush. So in reality it was the opposite of what you suggest.

Just to add there were chovevi Zion and talmidim of both the besht and gra moving to ey for 200 years. Granted they didn’t outright advocate for their own country or governance. But common sense says that when enough people immigrate together that’s what you’ll need. Besides Palestine was run by huge monarchs and it was a far out idea. They for sure wanted something on the local level.

Lastly that doesn’t mean that anti Zionists didn’t have a point. And yes because it’s so secular and dangerous, opposing even the ideal of Zionism could be was the right thing. I firmly believe that despite the Satmar Reba Zya saying otherwise if Israel was run by chasdisha yidden or the eida who just pinkt believed in Zionism he wouldn’t have been opposed. I know he writes against just the idea but I suspect otherwise. Nevertheless, the holy Reba and others being against it are definitely very Torahdik. But to say the other side like the holy rizyna rebas who had 1000s of chasdim, to say they made it up or are less Torahdik is just your own bias at best .

@somejewiknow

Nice this deserves its own comment separate from the rest. As you would say “for the Umpteenth time ” sefarim aren’t the only metric. MESORA is stronger than sefarim written in specific context. (Unless of course its rashi hakodesh etc). So now lets focus on Rizhyin. Rizyin has a strong mesora that Zionism is a good thing and the torah way. They had thousands of chasdim.

How do we know this? Is it just from one story? No its from tens of stories, It from 100’s of drashas and eyewitness testimony. Just like evryone knows the Satmar Reba zya was anti zionist (even without al hageulh val hatemurah) everyone knows Rizyhin was pro zionist. I can repeat some of the stroies and things said over from its rebas but you heard that already.

Now lets see if Rizhyin falls into your 3 categories that you put in bold (Even though you made up this silly rules)
1) Where its rebas “authorative”? yes they are widely accepted by others who incorporated many of their teachings. We know the last Skulner and Ribnitza learned by the shtefenshta reba who had pictures of Herzel in his library. Many other gedolim were close to rizyna rebas threw the years as well. but OY they didn’t write sefarim? That’s irrelevant.
2) Where they gedolim? Yes they were gaoinim , experts in the subject of zionsim and held at the top on many issues. And by the way you have no right to chose who is a gadoil. Too bad.
3) Is it Torah? Sure it was. They had sources from gemara and chazal and never made anything up.

Rizyna rebas include,, Chrotkov, Hysutan, Sdaigyur, Boyan, Baush, Shefnesht etc.

I think your comment is not in good faith. You make up stuff because you drink your hothead kool-aid. It makes you feel good to box everyone into an anti zionist shita. My response is in good faith and the torah way. yes I have researched this and delved into this. I have more proofs such as hearing from a holy jew himsefl R Moshe wolson zl. that Israel was a ahschlata degula and “shiveri kelim, the 1967 war was a nes. (I know he isn’t a “gadol” but its enough for me to say zionism isn’t kefira. i trust him more than you. I heard it from his mouth and not second hand) but I like to focus on this narrow path here. And so my focus is Rzihyin. There were 100’s of chasdim and tens of rebas across Europe and EY whose MESORA is that zionsim is a good thing as long as its not secular.

So let me repeat for all. ZIONISIM HAS A STRONG ROOT IN OUR TORAH. WE DON’T NEED SEFORIM. MESORA AND ACTIONS FORM HOLY JEWS SUFFICE.

@HaKatan

For the umpteenth time, stories are irrelevant. They are subject to memory, interpretation, and more. Stories cannot come close to answering black-and-white sefarim.

Thats your own made up theory. Often the opposite is true. We know many sefarim that are unclear or only written for its time or for a certian population.
Now it is true the certain stories cannot come close or are just memory. But when the story is repeated over and over again. Or when an entire chasidus saw the story vs just a few. Or when speechs were given over and over and it becomes part of the mesora told for 50 -100 years by all its leaders then even if its not in a sefer its just stronger than a sefer. So for example, maybe the idea of one story such as the Aver Yakov ferring tish on Yom hatzmut or the Hystna saying its hischlata degula isn’t a [roof. But when those stroies keep on repeating itself and when its a huge part of all Rizyna mesora where rebas for 100 years held of idelas of Herzel and spoke publicly that’s alot alot alot stronger. I confirmed this with quite a few rizyna reba einkleach and chasdim. It isn’t just like one isolated thing here and there. Its a theme over and over with 100’s of stories and drashas (Rizyna rebas don’t speak much but the little they speak). I dare you to confirm this instead of being so stubborn.

Rizyn alone should settle it. Then you have R Sharga feivel who also constantly told his talmidim this and not just one time or one story. Its less of a proof than rizyhn where you had mutiple rebas across 100 years time consistently telling thousands of chasdim the same message while stunchly doing things that support zionsim.

Other actions when summed up tell a better story then a sefer. So when quite a few gedolim work for the state of israel for decades staright that clearly proves more than a sefer that its not kefira. We all agree its assur to work for the reform or conservatives no matter what. And if it were on gadol Ok maybe he had some reason. But its a pattern of gedolim who worked for the state.

So yes a story like a rebasha masa that you say over form the Besht by melva malka maybe has less meaning. But when you see that same story told by tons of people who saw it happen, and when it keeps on being repeated over and over again, thats already mesora. Mesora is stronger than a sefer.

I hope that steels your umpteenth argument. Again we need not follow your narrow rules to say only a sefer counts. Repeated stories and MESORA are richer