Chaim87

I’ll just say this again. There is no rule that sefarim are needed to support an issue of hashkafa. Only people who bully make up their own rules . (And then of course discredit anyone who did write what they don’t like)

Mesora is just as much of a proof if not more than sefarim. And similarly one story or vort may not be proof but tens of stories told by thousands of eyewitnesses over and over again establishes a clear proof that’s greater than a Sefer. Henceforth all of rizyan who were gedolim

Since the attention span is small, I am resorting to simple posts.

There is no obligation nor source that we need “sefarim” for something to be al pi torah. Mesora is even stronger (especially if its not a halcha question rather hashkafa at best). You also don’t need what modern day calls a “gadol” to decide. A mesora based on multiple tzadkim are just as strong. And if the mesora is backed by actions and eyewitnesses testimony of course that keeps it going.

We have strong tzadkim in Rizyhin that all held zionsim not secular zionsim but zionsim is based on the Torah. This is cahsdisu with thousands of chasdim and tens of tzadkim.

haktan = somejew cannot deny rizyn’s mesora

@HaKatan
No its not nonsense. I don’t need to find a sefer. I found MESORA. Speak to Riyzna chasdim. (You made up this rule that I need to find a sefer).

RE EHS using “emotions”. And what do you think the holy satmar reba used? You think that was free from emotions?

i will ask the readers if they should trust HaKatan or R Moshe wolfson zl who said it was haschlata degula and shiveri kelim. Who was/is a bigger tzadi? you tell me if its “nonsense”?

@Non Political: I think R Hutner meant exactly how he said it. People nowadays think that we must follow Brisks ideals and style because they are pure. Noone is saying they aren’t pure. But they don’t decide everything in yddishkit. There are differing opinions and approaches that count as well. In other words the torah doesn’t stop on Har grezim. Just because the holy Birska rav zl held or did something doesn’t mean that klal yisroel has to do it.

You also talk way too deep for me. You are over analyzing zionsim with these deep thoughts. You need to take a step back. Most don’t and I don’t think ever thought so deep. Why is this like a PHD thesis can of ideology. Forgive me for saying you are getting carried away. So is Hakatan.

What is Zionism in simple terms? its that us jews have homeland run by other jews who won’t kill us like the Nazis YMS did and that those who are persecuted like the Soviet jews can be welcome. And that it be in Eretz yisroel. Thats all it is. Why are you making so many torahs out of this? And this in it of itself is not kefira. Many gedolim and ehrlicha jews hled of this such as Ryzhin and others.

Now was it abused by secular jews to throw off torah and try to shmad frum jews? yes it was. But its two separate things. the ideal itself which is to have a homeland and those running it who are ant torah. You’ll find that even people like the Imeri emes only opposed it because of the people running the show. Not because the idea of a home land was bad.

To recap: Rizyna chasdim always held ZIONISM = TORAH. And Mesora counts more than a sefer. Interestingly, that Hakatn won’t dispute that undeniable fact. Also interesting that R Moshe wolfson zl said different than hakatan . Who should we listen to?

@Always_Ask_Questions,

The other thing @HaKatan misses which talks to your point is that you always need to look at how religious and toradik a sect is after they introduce a controversial idea. So especially did they stay as jews who are shomer torah and mitzvas?

Take for example Shabasi tzvi’s followers, what became of them? They became muslims. Now lets look at Reform jews? Nebach they intermarried and there is nothing of them. Now lets take conservative jews. The movement started as a means to keep people religous. The heter to drive to shul shabbos was because “out of a town” families were driving to the mall anyhow so at least draw them to shul and be mekrav them. Many of its rabbonim in the 1960’s were frum observant jews who never dreamed of chilul shaboss. In fact when Sol Liberman invited Rabbi Finkelstein to his vacation home in marthas vineyard, Finkelstein refused because it was the 9 days and he was worried that his children would go swimming if he went on vacation in the 9 days. Thats how frum they were. Yet what happened to the following generations? Did the conservative movement succeed in making jews more religous? Well lets look at where it is today.

Now lets look at other controversies, Where talmidim of R Yonason Ebishitz accepted now? I;d say yes. how about the whole controversy of chasdim that were put in cherem and viewed as borderline kefira at the time? How about R Hirsch’s idea of torah em derech ertez? All those ideals and more we look at its offspring and we see did it stick? Did it bring people closer to torah judiasm?

Now lets look at religious zionism. Are its people keeping shabbos, kashrus, learning torah and being shomer torah umtizvas today? Look around and see. i think its even stronger and they are more ehrlich then they once were. Can one possibly call them not jews or kofrim? I’d bet even the briska rav or satmar wouldn’t really think so despite all that they say on the surface.

HaKatan, has a very unique way of twsiting things into a pretzel. He has very narrow rules as to what counts and what doesn’t. Everything is a deep thing and if you can’t twist out of a his pretzel you must be wrong. Some things in our torah are not just what it says. Its what you see too. The obvious stares at us in the face. Of course you can’t just go with feel good judaism . if something is assur and clearly stated you can’t defy that. But there is no clear out issur that says One cannot be zionsits. He is inferring it with lgoic. This is where you need to draw a line and follow your rav.

P.S. our torah isn’t limited to Brisk and the Hungarian R Hillel Lichtnestien talmidim. (Nowdays its kind of one group). As R Hutner said about Briska rav, “The torah is nisht gegebn uf har grezim” and I’d add neither was it given on ” Har Yoel”.

@ lbj
It’s actually the opposite. The anti Zionists didn’t like that the Zionists were secular and creating a country not religious. Nebach tons of Jews became irreligious. So they were mad. And rightfully so. This was also a time when the R Hillel Kamai Aka Lichtenstein built a new following around the idea of an “aintailing” separation from the neologs. Being chasdish all of a sudden meant building walls around you and strong kehilas. So now when Zionism came along and posed a threat they came up with Gemaras that were a chiddush so that they can upshlog Zionism. They took R Hirsch zl 3 shavous which was a very big chiddush. So in reality it was the opposite of what you suggest.

Just to add there were chovevi Zion and talmidim of both the besht and gra moving to ey for 200 years. Granted they didn’t outright advocate for their own country or governance. But common sense says that when enough people immigrate together that’s what you’ll need. Besides Palestine was run by huge monarchs and it was a far out idea. They for sure wanted something on the local level.

Lastly that doesn’t mean that anti Zionists didn’t have a point. And yes because it’s so secular and dangerous, opposing even the ideal of Zionism could be was the right thing. I firmly believe that despite the Satmar Reba Zya saying otherwise if Israel was run by chasdisha yidden or the eida who just pinkt believed in Zionism he wouldn’t have been opposed. I know he writes against just the idea but I suspect otherwise. Nevertheless, the holy Reba and others being against it are definitely very Torahdik. But to say the other side like the holy rizyna rebas who had 1000s of chasdim, to say they made it up or are less Torahdik is just your own bias at best .

@somejewiknow

Nice this deserves its own comment separate from the rest. As you would say “for the Umpteenth time ” sefarim aren’t the only metric. MESORA is stronger than sefarim written in specific context. (Unless of course its rashi hakodesh etc). So now lets focus on Rizhyin. Rizyin has a strong mesora that Zionism is a good thing and the torah way. They had thousands of chasdim.

How do we know this? Is it just from one story? No its from tens of stories, It from 100’s of drashas and eyewitness testimony. Just like evryone knows the Satmar Reba zya was anti zionist (even without al hageulh val hatemurah) everyone knows Rizyhin was pro zionist. I can repeat some of the stroies and things said over from its rebas but you heard that already.

Now lets see if Rizhyin falls into your 3 categories that you put in bold (Even though you made up this silly rules)
1) Where its rebas “authorative”? yes they are widely accepted by others who incorporated many of their teachings. We know the last Skulner and Ribnitza learned by the shtefenshta reba who had pictures of Herzel in his library. Many other gedolim were close to rizyna rebas threw the years as well. but OY they didn’t write sefarim? That’s irrelevant.
2) Where they gedolim? Yes they were gaoinim , experts in the subject of zionsim and held at the top on many issues. And by the way you have no right to chose who is a gadoil. Too bad.
3) Is it Torah? Sure it was. They had sources from gemara and chazal and never made anything up.

Rizyna rebas include,, Chrotkov, Hysutan, Sdaigyur, Boyan, Baush, Shefnesht etc.

I think your comment is not in good faith. You make up stuff because you drink your hothead kool-aid. It makes you feel good to box everyone into an anti zionist shita. My response is in good faith and the torah way. yes I have researched this and delved into this. I have more proofs such as hearing from a holy jew himsefl R Moshe wolson zl. that Israel was a ahschlata degula and “shiveri kelim, the 1967 war was a nes. (I know he isn’t a “gadol” but its enough for me to say zionism isn’t kefira. i trust him more than you. I heard it from his mouth and not second hand) but I like to focus on this narrow path here. And so my focus is Rzihyin. There were 100’s of chasdim and tens of rebas across Europe and EY whose MESORA is that zionsim is a good thing as long as its not secular.

So let me repeat for all. ZIONISIM HAS A STRONG ROOT IN OUR TORAH. WE DON’T NEED SEFORIM. MESORA AND ACTIONS FORM HOLY JEWS SUFFICE.

@HaKatan

For the umpteenth time, stories are irrelevant. They are subject to memory, interpretation, and more. Stories cannot come close to answering black-and-white sefarim.

Thats your own made up theory. Often the opposite is true. We know many sefarim that are unclear or only written for its time or for a certian population.
Now it is true the certain stories cannot come close or are just memory. But when the story is repeated over and over again. Or when an entire chasidus saw the story vs just a few. Or when speechs were given over and over and it becomes part of the mesora told for 50 -100 years by all its leaders then even if its not in a sefer its just stronger than a sefer. So for example, maybe the idea of one story such as the Aver Yakov ferring tish on Yom hatzmut or the Hystna saying its hischlata degula isn’t a [roof. But when those stroies keep on repeating itself and when its a huge part of all Rizyna mesora where rebas for 100 years held of idelas of Herzel and spoke publicly that’s alot alot alot stronger. I confirmed this with quite a few rizyna reba einkleach and chasdim. It isn’t just like one isolated thing here and there. Its a theme over and over with 100’s of stories and drashas (Rizyna rebas don’t speak much but the little they speak). I dare you to confirm this instead of being so stubborn.

Rizyn alone should settle it. Then you have R Sharga feivel who also constantly told his talmidim this and not just one time or one story. Its less of a proof than rizyhn where you had mutiple rebas across 100 years time consistently telling thousands of chasdim the same message while stunchly doing things that support zionsim.

Other actions when summed up tell a better story then a sefer. So when quite a few gedolim work for the state of israel for decades staright that clearly proves more than a sefer that its not kefira. We all agree its assur to work for the reform or conservatives no matter what. And if it were on gadol Ok maybe he had some reason. But its a pattern of gedolim who worked for the state.

So yes a story like a rebasha masa that you say over form the Besht by melva malka maybe has less meaning. But when you see that same story told by tons of people who saw it happen, and when it keeps on being repeated over and over again, thats already mesora. Mesora is stronger than a sefer.

I hope that steels your umpteenth argument. Again we need not follow your narrow rules to say only a sefer counts. Repeated stories and MESORA are richer

Bottom line that Zionism is not idolatry or heresy nor against the Torah according to all. Period. Acording to many its a haschlata dgeula

@yankel berel,

R Aron ZL father-in law R isser Zalman was very close to R Kook. His brother in law Become the rosh yeshiva of Hesder. R Shnuer zl grew up among them.

@HaKatan
” As well, the Zionist “State” is not a legitimate “State”, as per halacha,”

Its not a “Halacha” you made that up. Its hashkafa and it need not be defended in written sefarim. Hashkafa is determined by actions and words that holy gedolim spoke. (Of course we can find published sefarim and many of them but thats irrelevant). And we know of tons of gedolim that behaved and spoke in manner that supported zionsim and statehood.

I will continue to note that thousands of Rizyna chasdim and tens maybe hundreds of rebas supported a statehood with many calling it a haschlata degula. Of course we have actions of so many gedlom who worked for the state of israel, and or raised Israeli flags too.

Zionism according to many is based on torah views. Please do not let bullies tell you otherwise. Just because they make up goal posts that its a halcha that must be defended and that only certain people can defend it or they say harsh sharp words like “Undisputed” , it won’t chnage the truth. Do not get intimidated. There are strong sources of Zionism in pour torah

@HaKatan
You are very busy with “sources” and sefraim. You keep on making up this nonsense goal post that we need sources. No we don’t. I bring down clear stories and ideologies. That’s enough. Its very r;evant and only twisters of the truth and lairs can make up their own goalposts. As I noted thousdnads of chasdim belived in this ideology. Their rebas fered tish and yom hatzmut and made public decllartaions. These are facts and thats enough. I do0n’t need a “source”

Re your other point about wars, well thats silly. Not one war in israel was fought by choice. The point is that frum torah Zionism believes in politically pressuring the nations to allow us to have a homeland. Now once we are attacked after that, we have no choice but to fight. Noone is saying engage oin voluntary wars and Israel has never done that.
(side note there are soruces such as Eim HaBanim Semeichah by Rabbi Yisachar Shlomo Teichtal. and many others but its irrelevant).

@HaKatan
My stories don’t become Irrlevant because you noted them. My stories are very relevant. When tzadikim and gedolim are pro zioniist in actions thats the torah perspective in z onsism. You don’t get to decide its not relevant with your one sided narrow minded view.

Yes i can keep on going and there are many sources . the same rabbi Yosef who you qoute worked for the state of Israel. How funny. Imagine I qouted form Sol Lieberman who was a huge talmud chcuhem yet worked for JTS. If an entity is really totak aprikorisis and kefitra then anyone who works for them is “upgrefegt” and can’t be qouted. Yet you quote him. I do have one more posek that i have qouted on here in the past.

However, my key point isn’t who rote sefarim and who didn’t. The key point is that your goal post that you need a “psak” or that someone has to publish a pro zionsist sefer to allow it is baloney and nonsense. You made them and the you have the nerve to discredit even those that did.

ACTIONS are what matter since it isn’t a halcha issue. And my stories count whether you like it or not. The list of gedolim that support zionsim via actions are endless.

Sidenote, this idea that the Stamar reba zya was the undisputed gadol and that other gedolim need to respond to his sefarim or shita is also just a total lie. yes he was a gadol and holy man, But there are lots of question on him too. He wasn’t an “Undisputed gadol” like the chazon ish.

ZIONISM HAS STRONG ROOTS IN OUR TORAH AS PROVEN BY MANY GEDOLIM. Stop the misinformation.

@somejewiknow
Of course, real Gedolim explain their psak the Torah sources that obligate us following it.
Nonsense that you made up. You create your own stuff to push everyone else aside. This is baloney. Real gedolim commit ACTIONS that display true torah values. Not everything is a “PSAK” especially when its haskafa and not everything needs to be “explained”. You made both these things up and the squeeze everyone else in a pickle. I won’t stand for your drei kup lies. No such notion exist. We looks at actions to expiecially in hashkafa thats not a halacha question

@yechiell,
To be fair, my blood boils too when people spew nonsense like saying oh he was the biggest anti Semite and evil Or that he was so corrupt just because he pardoned his son. I mean compared to trump cmon. And yes Hunter was a witchunt too. ( as was Shelly silver ah and many others)

But I think its fair to criticize Biden and say he was both naive and too slow to address serious issues. That was his two biggest negatives that I think shaped his presidency. Naïve I mean falling far the Hamas/ Palestinian charade or better yet sympathizing with Free Palestine and believing them.

Similarly slow to address issues: here I have large list going back to covid and supply chain shortages that he never addressed, wasn’t quick enough tto stop new spreads and stff hoisptals as winter 2022 and omricon came along,. He was warned about medicine shortages too. In the Summer of 2022, experts said that as 2023 will be a bad flu season and we will need alot of medicine as people begin to mingle. yet winter came around and we I couldn’t find tylenol and anti biotics for my child. The same with calling inflation transitionary. When it came to the war in Ukriane he was slow to address/ send weapons needed that could have stopped the russians early on.

Those two negative traits are exactly what trump is the opposite of if you think about it. Of course being crazy and shooting from the hip like trump is dangerous too. All in all yes Biden had good intentions, and true empathy for us jews. He really did care and you can see it in his eyes. I will always admire his warm and caring nature. He was/ is a good person. But not good for what we need at this time.

@HaKatan
“Rav Elchonon and all the gedolim wrote”

“Rav Elchonon ” yes “ALL” no. Thats a lie you made up. I pointed to many gedolim who held and wrote differently,
And, again, there are many sources in the Torah that allows for forms of religious Zionism, You are lying.

Your stories about some Rebbe making a party on some day or whatever are totally irrelevant.

Nope its very relevant. It proves that there is a source from our torah. Actions matter. You know what else is relevant, And its not “some rebbe” The ruizyna rebas were holy people just like Satmar. No different.

R Kook Z”l, R Elyshaiv who obviously felt there is a place because he worked for them, R shloma zalman, R Isser Zlaman Meltzer. You know whats alos releveant? Actions taken by R sharga Feivel. Punvitcha Rav and many others that were openly pro zionsim

Sefraim written the Seridei Eish,
During the Holocaust, Rabbi Ziemba realized the urgent need for a Jewish homeland.
In 1942, in the Warsaw Ghetto, he publicly declared support for Zionism, saying that Jews needed their own state for survival.
Rabbi Menachem Kasher RY in ger and close talmind of the Imeri emes

Furthermore, we have teshivas from the steipler, R chatzkel and letters from R Aron Lieb that anyone not learning should fight in the IDF. Indeniable letters. Again that means its not kefira and forbidden.

I could keep on going. Yes in your mind. Only R elchnaon and satmar reba are gedolim. But oo bad You have no right to make these things up. Yes all the others I mentioned are gedolim and YES ACTIONS MATTER too.

Zionsim has a clear torah path

@somejewiknow,
Agree being in the IDF certainly doesn’t make one a tzadik. But lets say someone is in the IDF yet they are moser nefesh to do mitzvas and observe our torah. Are they not a tzadik? It sounds like you are saying no since they should have never joined. Therefore despite being so moser nefesh they aren’t holy? I just want to get that on record so everyone can see what radical you are. That would a yes or no. Is someone whose hands are chopped off but in the IDF who is moser nefesh to put on teflin a tzadik? yes or no?

“Fighting wars against the non-Jews does not make someone holy. Instead, the Gemara says that doing such things causes, G-d forbid, more bloodshed.”
So what should we have done on oct 8? Not fight back?
Furthermore, lets just clear the air many psokim hold we don’t pasken like that gemara which is an aggaduata. Furthermore, the gemara of 3 shavous only applies to when the umas haolim (goyim) don’t attack us. It doesn’t apply when we are attacked by them. This is the torah response and yes there are gedolim who were pro zionist who answered that.

Just to recap: There is a source in our torah for Zionism. There are lots and lots of gedolim who approve of Zionism. Of course nay gadol is anti being secular. And just so that everyone sees Mr somejewiknow says that IDF solders who are moser nefssh to learn torah, daven and do miztvas are not holy because they put themselves in that danger. You all heard it. Now the audience can decide

@HaKatan
Anti zionism is not a das yachad but not ALL gedolim hold like that. You are outright lying and I won’t stand for that.

Yes there is a source for Zionism in our Torah. 1000%.
Yes there is a source against Zionism too.
Both are true. That’s an undisputed fact. You are brainwashed and lying.

Back to my other comment , do you deny that the idf Soilders mesiras nefesh made them holy Jews ? Yes or no

@pure yiddishkeit
where did you get that “zionism” is the only form of the mizrachi religon? I see chaylim writing sefarim on gemara, making syumim, learning torah and davening and putting on teflin in the most harshest situations? I’d venture to say more than you or I would do. That means there is more to their religon than zionism. You made this up that all they do is preach zionisim all day.

And the way you start by calling it “stupid zionist kefira” is a lie too. R Kook Z’l was no kofer. And the list of gedolim who supported zionsim isn’t kefira either. Its not a cancer and the overwhelming majority don’t make it their only form of religion. (maybe a few crazy hilltop youth)

To those reading this ;
1) yes it’s true anti Zionism isn’t a dad yachid but there were many many others who held Zionism has roots in our Torah.
2) There is no such rule or goal post that one needs to write or publish sefarim to refute another gadol. One can also commit actions that display their difference of opinion. And that stands just like publishing sefarim. In fact you only to publish a Sefer if you are anti Zionism. Because there is no action that you can take that displays anti Zionism other than writing a Sefer. The deeds of many pro Zionist gedolim are enough to prove that it has a source in our Torah.
3) There are actually a nice few pro Zionist Torah publications as well. Although yes as noted in #2 there are more anti because that’s the only way to express your view

Bottom line there are many holy gedolim pro Zionism

@HaKatan
Do you know where the name Torah vodaath comes from? It was a mizrachi yeshivah in Europe. Its head was Rabbi Rineas. If R Elchnon ZL was Ok with it then despite his opposition to zionsim he didn’t really feel it was kefira. Furthermore, R sharga Feivel Z’L was very zionsitic. I heard from eyewitneses that he made a bracha when israel obtained its statehood.. The holy Satmar reba zya was upset about it. If Torah vodaath is your ideal, then you have are pro zioniists.

Of course you quote from holy sources. And to be clear if anyone would say that being anti zionist is bad or against the torah, I’d yell at them too. However, that doesn’t make pro zionsit anymore less part of our torah. There are two sides with very big tzadikim on both sides. Its like any other dispute such as litfaks vs chasdim, R yakov emdin vs R Yonasn eibshitiz etc. All sides are holy. But as R hutner use to say about Briska Rav, the torah wasn’t given on har grezim

@HaKatan
you do the same posting the same 3 gedolim who were anti Zionist. Many many were pro Zionist.

To start with with R kook zl was a Gadol in his own right. The chafetz Chaim held him in high esteem. He walked out on the convention in 1924 when they bashmutzed him and refused to return. R Kook helped the chafetz Chaim write a Sefer after his father in law who assisted was nifter. These are hard facts.

Even the imeri emes who penned his famous letter wrote how R kook was holy and that no one should belittle him. We also know that R kook talmidim were R elyshav and R shloma zalman.

Adding to R kook supporters and those who held of Zionism were R isser zalman zl whose some became the head of hesder, the Nazir, r tzvi pesach frank.

We also know that R shraga feviel made a bracha when the state was founded. The saduguyra rebe fered tish on Yom hatzmut. The hystina was openly mizrachi. The shtefenshta Reba who talmdim were the skulner and ribnitza had a picture of hertzel in study. The ponvitcha rav raised a flag every year on yom hatzmut and by the punvitich groundbreaking ceremony had all the secular Zionist mks.
We also have a few teshuvas from very esteemed rabbonim pro the state.

You post classic yeshivish hot headedness PR. It’s very in style to think like this today as that side won over the yeshiva world. (Maybe pun intended) . But it’s fake news and far from the truth. The truth is it was a dispute among gedolim and both have a makor in our Torah.

P.S. re Zionists today, keep on drinking the propaganda kool aid . That everyone is out to get us. Maybe just maybe today’s Zionists are not religious and don’t get the Torah vs out there to shmad us. And they don’t want us to become irreligious by joining the army. They just want us to be similar to hesder who produce very holy Jews learning Gemara in Gaza and being moser nefesh to
Put on teflin with two hands chapped off and on a wheel
Chair. Is that shmad in your eyes? I get the other side and why it may not be ideal for all charedim. But to say that the Zionists only want shmad?? Think rationally and snap out of your bubble.

@please and thank you
Point well taken except on the Zionist end by definition that means you live in EY and participate in Israeli life On the other hand if you are anti zionist it should not define you. Being anti zionist should just mean you mind your own business and just don’t get involved. It doesn’t require actions like being pro zionist is. So there when you allow it to define your life its a cult. And that’s kind of the crux of my old argument. The pro zionist gedolim didn’t need to write sefarim or defend it. Their voice was heard via actions. being zionist is about actions. The anti zionists were the ones who yelled alot because betzem there are no “actions” for an anti zionist. Henceforth to be anti zionist you write sefarim and yell. Still not an excuse to let it obsesss you. Nor can I understand why its vital to be anti zionists today

I don’t understand the premise of this question. Where does it say that you need “das torah” as it pertains to USA elections? This notion that everything you do you need das torah is a modern day invention. I don’t recall “das torah” during Bush V Gore or Clinton. (surely not earlier). Yes in EY where there are frum parties, yeshivas directly affected, and of course the broader zionsit debate, then it makes sense to say you need guidance from a tzadik as it intimately affects your judiasm. But in the USA that’s not the case. I happen to have voted for Trump and if not for israel, I would have voted for Harris. But why should das torah play a role?

Satmar isn’t a chasdius. I think the reba zya said that himself. Its a kehila built on the principals of R Hillel Lichtenstein aka R Hillel Kamai. The idea is to build a community that’s spilt from secular forces (neollogs) with a string sense of community culture. Lots of inner infrastructure and buildings . The key is to dress and speak like they did in Europe and not be inlfuneced by the outside. Both Satmar and Skever founded thier own city for that reason. Its not “chasdish”.
Re Bobov, you should ask a better question. Tsanz was always into simplicity and giving out tons of tedaka to the poor. The heilga sanza ruv never went to sleep at night if there was an extra penny in his pocket not distributed to the poor. Its known that the devrai chaim was in a dispute with the holy Rizyna rebas who believed in flaunting wealth as a reba because its ,malchus and he is from dovid hamelch. (Of course as is well known the rizyna himself wore gold shoes with no heel because he didn’t want to enjoy this world. However, he felt that as a reba in public malchus is needed) So what happened to that mesora? Why fancy buildings and gold and silver by Tish? In fact, there is a story about the current lakewood skulner reba, that when he built his new BM someone came over for an important cause and really needed money. The reba gave him what they collected for the BM. When the gabbaim found out they were upset and the reba replied isn’t this for the kehila? We need it for a fancy BM before a poor person? It almost feels like Skulen who shtams from Ruzyhin switched roles with Bobov. What happened to simplicty and gving to the poor?

@tzedikis,

I am not sure what your anger is. All we are say is OK you can chose to never be a zionist like holy satmar reba zyabut many leading gedolim and torahdik yidden chose to be a zionist and held this is the torah way, As it pertians to charedim in the army they can indeed maintain the sweetness of torah and still fight. Its not impossible to have both. I don’t think its ideal for every charedi. And if you are a follower of someone who is against zionism then thats fine. But there should be a path for those that chose to join. they should be encouraged and respected. Its not a treifa thing. its just a diifferent opinion