chafetzchaim613

Torah613613Torah: “Is there an actual issur, that you are NOT ALLOWED to call someone without smicha, Rabbi? I have always erred on the side of respect and call everyone, Rabbi, Dr, etc. Let them correct me. But is there a halachic issue in calling someone Rabbi, for darchei shalom?”

I think you can easily tell where someone is holding after learning with them for even a few min. There was once someone in my shule for instance who had smicha he received from the 1970’s. I noticed some people called him Rabbi in my shule so I asked him a question on a gemera I was learning hoping he could help. He said he was not able to make a laining on ANY gemera apart from one daf in kiddushin that he had learned over and over again and then went on to recite it from memory. In short, he wasn’t really able to read Aramaic well. He said he doesn’t know why people call him Rabbi but he doesn’t stop them either.

On the other hand, there is a guy from Lakewood who comes to visit during the chagim who does not have smicha but he is the unofficial Rov of the shule whenever he comes. Everyone goes to him to ask questions- even the official Rabbi.

thegra: ” Yasher Koach to chafetzchaim613 (I cannot agree with you more regarding everything you said).”

Thanks, I appreciate that.

Veltz Meshugener:

“It goes without saying that all the people who did get smicha are equally accomplished in Torah and all have the same occupation as spiritual authorities….Relatedly, if you follow the rules carefully, you will never make the tragic error of calling someone “rabbi” who didn’t deserve it.”

Haha exactly.

Charles: “I made a donation of $4000 and got smicha within 6 months; from someone who was also a Medical Doctor, btw.”

I am not surprised (well I am a little) though my own experiences in this area is what inspired me to start this thread in the first place.

Below is one example. I think it’s mamish what we have today.

“These underdeveloped students who have not gathered much Torah knowledge, seek to gain prestige in the eyes of the common people and the inhabitants of their city [by] jumping to sit at the head of all questions of law and halachic judgements in Israel. They spread division, destroy the world, extinguish the light of Torah, and wreak havoc in the vinyard of the God. In his wisdom, Solomon alluded to them [as follows, (Song of Songs 2:15)]: “Take for us foxes, little foxes that spoil the vinyards, [our vinyards are blooming.]” Rambam Mishneh Torah Hilchos Talmud Torah 5-4

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oomis: “I understand the point you are making”

Thank you, it would have been a privilege to meet your father. He seems like a great man.

yaff80: I think the emphasis goes on what the person does for the tzibur and how he should be addressed by others in his position. Perhaps the students should call their teacher Rebbe instead of Rabbi but I don’t see what the problem is if they call him Rabbi as this would certainly enhance the kavod of Torah.

Kavod haTorah is increased when people call others Rabbi who put their title into practice through teaching, chinuch or by being the Rabbi of a shule. Calling people Rabbi only because they took some questionable smicha program 20 years ago and do not benefit the tzibur through their past learning is not kavod haTorah. On the other hand, I suppose if they got smicha from the Mir or a similar yeshiva this would be another story all together.

“then I would say that person should go ahead and get smicha already if they deserve it so much.”

What if such a person cannot afford smicha or does not have the time to get smicha because he has a job. Shouldn’t people be encouraged not to get smicha unless they absolutely need to for parnasa or because they are a rav of a community? Wouldn’t this cause the title to be more respected?

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perkey avos 1:10 clearly says it is better not to get smicha if you do not have to. So there goes your argument saying everyone should get smicha. The chafetz chaim and others never got smicha until they had to.

“More generally, people who get smicha through such places aren’t necessarily doing it so they can get a title they don’t deserve or aggrandize themselves. A lot of people either didn’t have the opportunity to go to a regular yeshivah, because they became BTs at a late age or whatever, and simply take the smicha course as a way to challenge themselves”

I am sorry but this is the biggest excuse used in the book. You can’t learn Torah lishma unless you are getting smicha? Please.

oomis: “Nevertheless, if they have legitimately earned their smicha, they should be addressed as Rabbi, if that is their wish (some prefer not to be). If someone has NOT earned his smicha through his learning and knowledge of Torah, then that’s a whole ‘nother ballgame.”

Who determines legitimate? There are people who because of FINANCIAL reasons or a lack of time, social skills etc. that simply cannot get smicha. Though this has nothing to do with a lack of Torah knowledge. On the other hand, there could be someone who is a baal geiva and attains smicha where he knows if you have the money or connections you will get it.

Yes, I do think it is wrong for people who are not employed as a Rabbi to use the title Rabbi. If you are not using the title to benefit the klal than the only other reason you are using it is because your’re a baal geiva and that is not legitimate. “Earning it” by learning is not a reason to call oneself “Rabbi” every time you go to a chasna or get a letter in the mail.

So why do you think someone would join a small yeshiva that basically hands out smicha and where they would be one of the biggest guys there apposed to a bigger yeshiva where the person would be a small “no body” but surrounded by real talmeidei chachamim.