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Avira- that can answer one thing. How about our Avodas Hashem creating Nachas ruach to Hashem. Chassidus explains that Hashems bechira in us (comes up in tekias shofar maamarim a lot) reaches Atzmus. How could it be? If Lo Shanisi?
This affects us practically too. Are we serving Hashem selfishly (what will we get?) or selflessly (for what Hashem wants)?
So I’m thinking that maybe the Yakov Avinu thing needs some support- (although the Rabbi is a big talmid chochom), because some may class it as agaddata- and hence consider it non literal. But it’s not actually a part of the Gemara- it’s meforshim on the Gemara.
And there’s a Yalkut Shimoni that says the same as well.
Additionally, here’s an interesting analysis by The Rebbe on Yakov Lo Mes.
https://www dot hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15959&st=&pgnum=236
There was a reason for the change- 50 points to the person who guesses it right
Which is?
Here’s another conundrum for ardent Chabad nils- please explain- with sources if you can- how you synthesize
אני הוי׳ה לא שניתי with נתאוה הרב״ה להיות לו ית׳ דירה בתחתונים?לקו״ש שמות כ״ו The Rebbe said that Moshe Rabbeinus neshama must be alive in the body of the Moshe Shebador (Moshe Lo mes).
Oh but the Rebbe is the Moshe Rabbeinu?
I asked why can’t there be a new Moshe?
Answer: because our mission for this generation is to bring Moshiach, so we haven’t finished our mission hence no new leader.Ok. Wait how does that make sense if gimmel Tammuz happened?
A: no one knows for sure, (because we’re not The Rebbe) but we looked to Torah sources in the topic, (amazingly all discussed in The Rebbes sichos- (YB comes in it’s part of the conspiracy insinuation- right whatever), and here’s what we’ve got:
A) people who decided The Rebbes word overrides what we think might have happened gimmel Tammuz (I guess tzfatis etc) after all who do you believe- optical illusions or The Rebbe?
B) people who believe what the world says and say We don’t understand how what The Rebbe said makes sense
C) middle ground- The Rebbe is alive in the Ohel.
We don’t know who’s right and that’s ok. Just possibilities.
Sources: Rabbeinu Hakadosh made kiddush for his family (obviously in a real body or he couldn’t be yotze them) after his passing
Rabbeinu bachya- a tzadik has a guf gas (material body) and guf dak (which isn’t limited to being in one place at a time) there’s a well known story like this about the Baal Shem Tov as well as the Rebbe Rashab (I have heard the Rebbe too with the Baba Sali but would like to confirm myself which isn’t happening any time soon)
Yakov Avinu- opened his eyes and smiled (after the blood was drained and he was entombed etc) when Esavs head rolled off. (This shows a tzadik can be alive even if his vital signs are gone)
What’s the point of his aliveness? He stays connected to the Chassidim even regarding gashmius concerns- unlike when the tzadik goes to gan Eden.
Just btw, The Rebbe wouldn’t have much to do in Heaven anyway cuz The Rebbe took a public vow that he will not go into gan Eden until Moshiach comes…
I’m starting to think there was a reason for your change in screen name.
Yes I’m wondering why they’re called Chabad? If they want to be associated with seder hishtalshelus, why aren’t they called Adam Kadmon? Atik? Arich? Chagas? Nahim? Malchus? I mean why somewhere in the middle?
I’m also wondering if a chabadnik could post a clear definition of Iggulim? What about Nekudim etc? And what about Ribuim?- somewhere in Ranat or something- but I haven’t found it?
You know what? It’s probably not right to leave you hanging. So I’ll post what I know in short- and people can look up the sources themselves for an in depth analysis if desired
But not sure I’m inclined to share with you that fascinating class, which I was only privy to because I asked what I found out about from non Lubavitchers, because much of the crowd here seems out to get us, and frame everything negatively
Qwerty- I never heard of it growing up and found out that there was such a thing when non Lubavitcher asked me about it. Of course I told them what I thought it meant- that The Rebbe is alive and well in the sense that he is treated as Rebbe and listened to even now.
But I was wondering if there was more to it, so I asked my very knowledgeable and normal Moshiach teacher in high school about it. Ended up quite fascinating
To be honest, some of us have more chitzonios reasons for wanting the geula- but The Rebbe taught us to care for Hashem at least as much- and showed the way- The Rebbe cried over the fact that The Shechina is in golus
Arso- I’ll agree with your last post- our obsession with Moshiach is because Hashem cares- and we care for Hashems mission and Hashems pain (more than our own in golus)
Nomesorah- yup. Besides for the multiple tefillos for moshiach throughout davening- and- three times a day
On that note- have you heard of The Rebbe being alive today? Yah I looked into that one too
Qwerty I’ve really delved into this topic and learned many mekoros on it. When I say Emuna vs logic, because ultimately is Emuna based it doesn’t matter what you say if it contradicts The Rebbe . However, If Moshiach comes and it’s apparent we misunderstood The Rebbe, or it played out differently than expected, nobody would actually care if The Rebbe was or wasn’t physically Moshiach (would you like to hear my dream of Moshiach)
And it wouldn’t make him less great in our eyes (the same way Moshe Rabbeinu won’t be any less great when Moshiach comes)Looks like I’m done here as the questions aren’t sincere- at least at this point. I have dira btachtonim stuff to do, and learning/ helping friends if I have spare time. If you’d like a list of why I specifically chose and chose to be Chabad, I’ll be happy to provide. And if there’s any sincere questions (not looking to out us on one thing or another…) I’ll be happy to answer too.
AAQ- it’s because we learn Chassidus that we feel comfortable discussing these topics- the concepts are laid out simply in the sichos (with extensive fns from all over Torah, nigle and nistar. And expounded in depth in maamarim.
As for all of you mischaracterizing The Rebbe- we obviously hold that you’re mistaken (not because we don’t know enough of The Rebbe but because we do) and I would be careful because The Rebbe is a tzadik and it’s not a great Mitzvah to denigrate one.
Any more questions? Qwerty has a lovely Chabad Rabbi to ask.
Rso has plenty of lubavitch contacts (including his relatives).
Yankel Berel- Menachem made great points- and until you think about them and speak differently, there’s nothing to talk about (hence wholesale ignoring)
Rso you’re two lubavitch sources for denigrating The Rebbe, the first I never heard of and after Simple googling it’s obviously not a reliable reference as far as lubavitch goes (see we’re not that stupid- the author thinks The Rebbes Neshama entered his after gimmel Tammuz, so he would like to be the next Rebbe- I never heard of him ever until yesterday)
By empowering us- I mean every person and group, us as yidden, as men, as women, as children, as Chassidim etc whatever group you were- The Rebbe uplifted you
We’re used to being mocked/ challenged since the beginning of Chassidus.
When one of the Garelik girls (stationed in Italy on shlichus) was challenged by her teacher that even if you take hot water, if you keep adding cold water, it will become cold, she answered, but if you plug in the pot, the whole thing will become hot!
She was right
2scents- there’sa Moshe Rabbeinu in each generation- not just ours
Why it’s such a focus today? My thoughts are that The Rebbe needed an army to accomplish our generations mission (when The Rebbe spoke of taking over the world and bringing moshiach- it also seemed ludicrous to the few survivors of Stalin who were there…)
So The Rebbe revealed deeper truths to us, which went well known in the generations before- about our own power- about a Rebbes power- and built an army of soldiers to send out all over the globe
AAQ- the sources are given so you can look things up for yourself. Chabad dot org has shiurim in Tanya
Rso-
“ I may be wrong, and if I am please cite non-Lubavich sources to set me straight, but I believe the above is a totally Lubavich concept, and quite likely a fairly recent one.”The source I know is Tanya 36-37. I’m sure the more learned Lubavitchers could fill you in more.
Obviously there’s Medrash Tanchuma- that Hashem desires to have a dwelling place in this lower world.
That’s the basis.
“ The plan I believe in is that we are to keep Torah and Mitzvos solely because that is what Hashem wants, and by the way that will reveal his Elokus in the world. To the best of my recollection I have never heard that the plan has to do with Mashiach except in Lubavich circles.”
What’s the point of revealing Elokus in this world?……
It’s like saying I believe in dialing the exact phone number (but forgetting the point is to make a call😀)Rso- “ Why would, say, an Amshinover chossid, while talking to another Amshinover chossid, say, “the rebbe” and mean the Lubavicher rebbe? Can you really believe that that is ever the case, unless, of course the topic just happened to be Lubavich, and saying “the rebbe” in context may mean the Lubavicher rebbe. But then, if the topic was Lelov, then “the rebbe” may mean the Lelover Rebbe.”
Agreed.
Rso- to me this is a pretty basic point,
“ Neither of those show that they were greater than Moshe Rabbeinu in any way. Your “proof” from Miriam has nothing whatsoever to do with contrasting Moshe. And regarding Aharon, all it means is that he was more involved in making Shalom than Moshe was – he may have had more time to do so, I can’t say that with any knowledge – but not that he was greater.”
Every tzadik has his kav- Avraham Avinu was chessed, Yitzchak was gevura, Moshe was Emess, Aharon was shalom- there’s references in nigla (Moshe Emes, Aharon rodeif shalom etc) The women of mitzrayim- Emuna
What’s so hard to understand- my point was that just because someone is the Moshe shebador- doesn’t mean that no one else has what to add.
I remember hearing that The Rebbe said that if Satmar had not come out with the anti Zionist stance that they took, we would’ve had to do it more… everyone in Klal Yisrael has a unique mission that cannot be done by anyone else
Qwerty
“ But even if we accept your premise, why should the Rebbe be the person chosen by Hashem to represent Him not only while he was alive but even after he was dead? He was only the Tzaddik hador according to Chabad?”Every Jew is chosen by Hashem to represent Him here- the more we live that truth, The more others see it… rabbi cunin was talking to Lubavitchers about our Rebbe , I’m sure he would have presented the ideas differently to others who misunderstand things because they don’t come from our background (as explained previously)
Nassi hador? Yes . Only tzadik? Not necessarily (in fact there’s always 36 hidden)
“Not every word that a tzadik says is nevuah; not every word that even a navi says is nevuah!”
Yes but with ruach hakodesh…
“Only when he speaks for Hashem; this is why Moshe was able to make a mistake, on his level, when he said shinu nah hamorim; that was him talking, not Hashem, no matter how batul to Hashem Moshe was(and he was the most batul because he was the biggest anav)”
Yet we see that when a plague broke out and the Malach hamaves challenged Aharon, he said, Moshe never says anything from his own heart!
So what’s with the hitting of the rock etc? I saw once (I a I could find the source) that there were two plans- to go into Eretz Yisrael right away (and leave the dor hamidbar out) and have geula straight away, or go through golus and achieve a greater deeper geula? Moshe chose the latter (also didn’t want to leave his dor behind) while Hashems plan so to speak was immediate geula…
Something like that- regardless, even Moishes mistake so to speak, was guided by Hashem- I would love if anyone knows what I’m talking about and could give the mokor
Avira-
“ we don’t say to Hashem that he should send moshiach in order that they all know who moshiach is; maybe that’s what chabad does, but it’s very twisted.”No we don’t do that
“Where in any of our tefilos do we pine for the world to know moshiach? We want moshiach SO THAT people will know Hashem!”
Right
Rso- regarding more sources for Moshe Rabbeinu/ Nassi hador- I posted a sicha on it before shabbos together with the sources. I believe the first was the megale amukos
Avira- the way you explained how you know of moshiach is exactly the way we would- and how we view a Tzaddik/ Rebbe
etc. (obviously the revelations we’ll see by Moshiach are incomparably greater)On a different note, I was thrilled to find a sicha discussing what The Rambam means when he says that the highest level of serving Hashem is to do it because it’s the Emess. The sicha clarified the steps up to this avoda and also gave a way to those in the very beginning to tap into it.
My father has been wondering about the stress on Emess (as opposed to anything else) and what it means, so I was very excited to learn it for myself and pass it on.
It was לקוטי שיחות, חלק ל״ג שלח ב
Qwerty
“Thank you for weighing in on cunin’s statement. Despite what CS would like us to believe cunin meant exactly what he said.”That’s great Dan lchaf zechus at play. Do you know him personally?
“Cunin lived in a different era.* Would that be in the time pf the Besht? Earth to CS. He’s still alive.”
lol I think I said earlier- he saw The Rebbe pre gimmel Tammuz which puts him in a different era relative to me.
”As for my state.ent that Mosbiach will rule rhe world. In a sense thst will be true. He will likely forge peace alliances with all the world’s powers lile Shlpmo Hamelech.Of course, that’s only one possibilty..”
Yes he will rule the world. And that doesn’t detract from the statement that Hashem will rule the world and be the One and Only king as we say in Aleinu. The problem I had with your statement was that Hashem will hand over the reign to Moshiach, implying that we’ll serve Moshiach instead of Hashem cvs(if that were the case I’d stay in golus…)
2scents
“Halacha does not pivot, saying its based on old principles but pivoted is not the structure of
halacha.”I don’t really care which words is used. My point is that Halacha adapts to whatever situation there is, and it is always relevant because of that- same with Chassidus.
“Regardless, it seems you clarified the mindset of chabad, that “the Rebbe” is not just another rebbe but the ultimate person alive since mankind and therefore his word is accepted as final as if its from Hashem himself. So much, that you try teaching it to the masses.”
No not at all. We hold our Rebbe to be the Moshe Rabbeinu of this generation. Other Chassidim I’ve met relate to this awe of The Rebbe (because their parents tell them stories etc of their original Rebbes) but hold there Rebbeim have gone through yeridas hadoros. As I said, I would treat the Baba Sali with the same reverence, and whatever other Tzaddikim there are out there who speak with ruach hakodesh which used to be much more common. In the Litvishe world, I’ve heard that R. Yisrael Salanter was a Tzaddik.
“I don’t think that in our history, starting from the Avrohom Avinu did we ever hold any human being to this high regard.”
I’m sorry that’s your history… we have it today.
“Furthermore, it would require more than your subjective assessment to determine if any human being actually reached that level, your feelings toward “the Rebbe” are irrelevant and certainly not enough to place him at that level.”
When a Rebbe follows another Rebbe of the same caliber in an unbroken chain of Tzaddikim, and acts the same way, no reason to suspect otherwise.
Someone once asked the Rashag why he ultimately supported The Rebbe as Rebbe (he was his brother in law, and the Rashags Rebbetzin wanted him to become Rebbe) and he answered because my brother in law isn’t a liar. He says things he’s heard from the Frierdiker Rebbe (after The Frierdiker Rebbe was nistalek) and I haven’t heard anything, and he’s not a liar, so I stepped aside…
Avira- I was quoting the Rashi- I’m happy that women did mourn if that’s the meaning- I didn’t read the mefarshei rashi…
My point was that other Tzaddikim can have something that Moshe didn’t have. Rso never heard of this I guess, so I was replying with sources…
And why the whole world- when people are aware of Tzaddikim- that is a revelation of G-dliness in this world (see Tanya where it discusses the midas harachamim that Hashem mixed in to the creation of the world- which otherwise would have had no G-dly revelation. The rachamim was Tzaddikim and miracles in Torah)
Avira-
“Cs, you’re not answering why cunin said that the “whole world” will see that the Lubavitcher rebbe runs the world. Not chabad chasidim being strengthened in their chasidus based esoteric ideas, and not klal yisroel that (to him) should embrace chasidus – no, goyim, the whole world who is unaware of Hashem’s rulership, will know not that Hashem runs the world, but that the Lubavitcher rebbe does, in whatever capacity that is.”Again you could say the same thing about Moshiach’s kingship if you’ve never learned into what that’s all about. A Rebbe, by definition (in Chabad) is batul to Hashem, so he meant the Rebbe (through nissim etc) runs the world (as opposed to nature). We in Chabad would never say The Rebbe (as opposed to Hashem) because it’sa contradiction in terms. Whenever we say “The Rebbe said…” etc, we mean Hashem speaking through The Rebbe, not the Rebbe with his human aspect (and before you jump on me, in Medrash tehillim it says on Moshe ish HoElokim- that his lower half is man and his upper half is Elokim. (Obviously, not a separate god- his persona radiates G-dliness, what he says is what Hashem says through him etc)
Avira- interesting you write that- it seems lubavitch deadly in yesteryear what the entire frum world is dealing with today. I met a few people today, not lubavitch, and when I said I’m concerned about what influences my kids may pick up in school, they assured me that lubavitch is doing very well and I have nothing really to worry about. They said it’s going on in every circle today. (Due to technology etc)
Personally I think it’s part of the teshuva process for geula- today people will not be frum because their parents are- it needs to be real and meaningful. Because there are many alternatives and it is increasingly easy to access it
2scents:
“ Halacha does not change, nor do the rest of yiddiin believe they are on some type of shlichus. These concept may seem mainstream to Chabad but not to mainstream yiddin. It’s a newer concept.”Oh, please show me the Halacha lMoshe Misinai which discusses flicking lights on Shabbos?
Ie Halachic principles stay the same but Halacha definitely adapts to each situation, so there are changes in that way. Same with Chabad…
We’re all here on a shlichus from Hashem (I’m sure there are nigle sources for that, even Avodai heim etc)
And yes, there’sa plan with this world, which is to read it for Moshiach- and as every generation builds on previous generations work- the mission changes- for example in the time of the Tannaim and Amoraim- they were supposed to refine the chochma of the world- so that’s why every person wanted to be a philosopher. Look at today- it’s not the same world.In general, The golus avoda was generally masculine- forcing kedusha upon the world / conquering it from klipa etc- so it was more desirable to be a boy.
Now we’re at the cusp of geula- we’re entering a feminine era where you will see Elokus radiating from the world upwards, the body will give life to the neshama etc etc (I’m sure theres nigle sources for everything, but these topics are more discussed in the Neshama of Torah- which Chassidus brings down to our level)
So now, for example, The Rebbe elevated women in a way they weren’t previously, to prepare for this era etc etc
Just some examples- but yes there’sa plan with Creation, and as the plan progresses, the focus of the time changes
Here’s the Rashi in case there’s a fuss:
THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL [WEPT] — i.e., the men; but regarding Aaron, — because he pursued peace, and made peace between a man and his fellow, and between a woman and her husband, it is stated, (Numbers 20:29) “The whole house of Israel [wept for him]” — the men and the women (Pirkei DeRabbi Eliezer 17)2scents- regarding yitzro Gadol heimenu- The Rebbe taught about Yochanan Kohen Gadol (The one who went off at 80 years- hope I got the name right) that if a tzadik doesn’t keep pushing at his avoda (which is above struggles with actual aveiros in action, speech, thought as mentioned- Tanya yud)
Then he can lose his level and descend all the way down eventually like what happened by Yochanan Kohen Gadol.
Like we learned in school that in life you need to run up the opposite direction escalator- it’s not a ladder- if you’re not going up you’re going down r”l
Avira- rashi says the women only mourned Aharon- I’m sorry if you misunderstood my post
2scents
“Great, but it appears that the desire to elevate “the Rebbe” to the highest status throughout human history is leading some to express ideas that seem unusual (so say the least) to the general yiddishe population.”
Interesting, my perception is that this used to be not so unique at all (again see hilchos Talmud Torah 5:5) but because there are very few Tzaddikim- I don’t know of any others today that I’ve heard of- it sounds strange.
You know in lubavitch we also have many respected Rabbanim and mashpiim, and we listen carefully to what they say, but we wouldn’t swallow every word as if it’s G-d given, because they’re not Tzaddikim of Tanya- they still have their own yeshus to a certain level- and maybe what they’re saying comes from that- so we won’t respond with the same bitul to every innocent suggestion they make (not talking about psak.)
Whereas The Rebbe is different, so we treat him differently. Many Lubavitchers get a shock when they interact with other Jews and see they don’t display the same reverence for their Torah leaders. We would expect it to be the same. Until they explain to us (in my case) that their Rebbe has a yetzer hara due to yeridas hadoros…)
Qwerty: cunin never said the Rebbe runs the world instead of Hashem cvs. You said Hashem will hand over the reigns to moshiach (ie he’ll rule instead of Hashem.)
The simple meaning is as I said before, cunin was saying The Rebbe runs the world (as in performs miracles etc etc) instead of people thinking that what the doctors say rules etc. No Lubavitcher would think cunin meant the Rebbe runs the world instead of Hashem, because to a Lubavitcher that’sa contradiction in terms. The Rebbe had no other desires other than what Hashem wants, and saw himself as a shliach of Hashem in this world.
That said, I personally wouldn’t express myself in such a way, (cunin isn’t The Rebbe) partially because I don’t see clearly which things are The Rebbes effect so to speak and which are a result of my personal Tefillos only and which are simply Hashems kindness to me etc etc
Whereas cunin lived in a different era
Rso-
“ Where on earth did you get that from?”
I’m sure you don’t want too hear Chassidus so basic sources are “bizechus nashim tzidkonios etc etc”
For Miriam- the women, let by Miriam had tambourines, prepared while still in the worst of golus, while the men
Didn’t- the women had more EmunaAharon was mourned by men and women alike because he brought Shalom while Moshe wasn’t (Rashi on Aharon’s passing and the mourning)
2scents: I have no need to look into all mekoros, for me it’s enough my Rebbe says so (see hilchos Talmud Torah of Rambam 5:5)
I just wanted deeper understanding as it’s always
brought up here.So something interesting: in one of the mekoros of another of the mekoros I looked up it says that when Moriah comes he will karkar kol bnei sheis. What does this mean? When Moshiach comes and Atzmus will be revealed, The goyim (and rest of creation) will see evidently that they have no real existence of their own- their whole being is isified by Hashem every moment and there’s nothing.
However, a yids true metzius is Atzmus itself so we would still have a sense of identity-( that we are a representation of Hashem in this world- my Ed)
For all those Atzmus investigators…
If you don’t feel this day to day you can get a Rebbe who personifies this, and/or you can learn Chassidus Chabad to get in touch with your yechida (or you can get a goy to threaten your life unless you convert etc)
Rso- so what… Tanya 42 also says that there’sa spark of Moishe in every yid- that doesn’t negate the Moshe shebador.
To all you people saying “neo Chabad is different” “Chabad has pivoted/ modernized etc”
That’s no different than saying that Halacha has pivoted or modernized.
No. Every generation has its unique shlichus and The Rebbe guides them in that direction with the same principles etc.And Rso- other Chassidim are obviously more to be referring to their Rebbe when they say Rebbe, but sometimes they also could mean ours.
2scents- looks like the second part of your question was answered by Menachem
As far as knowing who is tzadik etc- what we can measure is speech and action/ sometimes thought in facial expression etc
But beinoni and tzadik alike have mastered that. So that’s why I said you can see a tzadik is a different plane- like the Rambam says when he discusses nevuah- that after a Chacham reaches a certain level in Avodas Hashem- his senses become elevated- ie he gets ruach hakodesh and people can tell
Also I noted that when people struggle with evil, even if they do good, they will express that in their words as well… I hope that’s clearer
2scents I appreciate your posts (plus I learned more over Shabbos for the atzmus investigators) hopefully next time I can write
Qwerty here’s one from my spouse: does your head run your body or Hashem? Is it a contradiction?
A gutte voch from my locality!
Qwerty- I meant obnoxious to what you described as militant Chabad. As to your question about moshiach not usurping Hashems rule so why does The Rebbe, my point was that The Rebbe doesn’t the same way Moshiach doesn’t- same idea (obviously Moshiach on a higher plane.) if you’re not sure what that’s gonna look like, I’ll be happy to explain, there’s a Maamar by the Tzemach Tzedek called Minui Melech that addresses this.The opening question is: why would decent frum people need a king anyway? They don’t need to be policed- they don’t commit crimes! (And especially by Moshiach- what’s his role anyway?)
I’m sure your local Chabad rabbi can learn it with you inside- otherwise happy to help if needed
Mdd
“How does one know that a person is a tzadik in the Tanya’s definition? In Shamaim they know, but people?”The difference between a beinoni and tzadik is that a beinoni has a yetzer hara (and doesn’t give in ever) while a tzadik doesn’t because he either put it to sleep (tzadik vra lo) or transformed it to another yetzer Tov (tzadik vtov lo).
You’re right there’s no yetzer hara xray- but you can tell usually from the way a person expresses themselves, whether they struggle with evil or not. If you’ve met/ experienced a tzadik- you would know- they’re on a different plane
To QWERTY- obnoxious people don’t learn that from Judaism, ie if someone is only Chabad because he thinks no one else has value other than Chabad, he is definitely lacking in ahavas Yisrael and has blemished his own Neshama (see derech mitzvosecha of the
Tzemach Tzedek Mitzvas ahavas Yisrael.)People like this aren’t unique to Chabad…
And I do my best to have no part of such mindset/ behavior. It really comes from a lack of self esteem.