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CSParticipant
“ It’s worth noting that Chabad routinely refers to the Rebbe as the Moshe Rabbeinu Hador. Moshe shunned every honor. When Hashem told him to redeem Israel he begged that Aaron be theessenger. In contrast the Rebbe tried to convince his followers that he’s Moshiach.”
Moshe initially didn’t want to accept, but by the time he was supposed to split the Yam Suf, let alone
be the only one on Har Sinai with Hashem, he accepted his mission.Same with The Rebbe…
CSParticipantQwerty: another slight correction: there was no pressuring from the Rebbe or the Chassidim on this issue. The Rebbe left it open for whoever wanted to accept (there is no king without a nation) and the Chassidim never pressured The Rebbe to declare himself Moshiach, rather they responded.
CSParticipantQwerty
“ CS has clarified the Chabad position. In 1991 a delegation of Lubavichers approached the Rebbe and asked him to accept the Meashichas. He smiled which indicated his assent. At that point he became Moshiach and in seven years he’ll come back to life to declare himself Moshiach for all the Jews.”Not exactly. Firstly, there is no one Chabad position. This is a test of Emuna and various people approach it differently. Secondly, The Rebbe didnt just smile on one occasion – it was more said/done than that. Thirdly, there’s no date. Hopefully, Geula will arrive today.
- This reply was modified 1 year ago by Y.W. Editor.
- This reply was modified 1 year ago by CS.
CSParticipant“CS: “3) did you look up all the sources?”
I looked up ALL the sources you gave from Chazal.” Wonderful. You may have benefitted seeing the Rebbes sources to see how they came up.
“I have said it before, but “Beis Mashiach has the gematria of 770” is so childish that it’s cringeworthy.
Did you know – this is something I heard 50 years ago – that Chamor Bli Daas not only has the initials Chabad but that it too has the gematria of 770? If you want to prove things from childish gematriyos then be my guest.”Anyone can make up anything in gematria. If something is true, gematria brings it out as an extra point. It’s not a starting point. Remember the trump moshiach gematrias? Ridiculous. I didn’t make these up. Bochurim were quoting it in 770, and it only became significant to me when the Rebbe referenced it.
CSParticipantArso:
“ CS: “2) that’s not in the Rambam s criteria of defining bchezkas Moshiach”What are you referring to?”
Simple. If you had to wait for Sanhedrin to verify yichus, the Rambams idea of bchezkas moshiach wouldn’t be relevant (besides it’s not even moshiach vadai.) also, your Sanhedrin criterion isn’t mentioned at all here in Rambam
CSParticipantArso:
“ You claim that the Lubavicher rebbe fits the Rambam’s criteria, one of which is Mashiach will be a king. So why didn’t anyone – not even the greatest of chassidim – recite the beracha one recites when seeing a king? The obvious, and only, answer is that they didn’t consider him a king, and for a very simple reason… he wasn’t.Btw I believe that the expression מאן מלכי רבנן does not appear anywhere in Chazal. It is a paraphrasing of something said by an Amora in Gittin 62a, and according to that all Rabbonon are included. Nonetheless we do not find anyone, including the Amora who made the statement, reciting the beracha because even he did not mean that they had the actual status of kings. Proof being that Chazal say that a Rav can be mochel on has kavod but a king cannot. So clearly it is allegorical (that may be the wrong word, but you probably know what I mean).”
We definitely see the Rebbe as king in many ways- such as complete bitul to doing what the Rebbe says. Also, when a Rav pasken a something that creates reality, even if the world says something different.
Bar kochba definitely wasn’t annointed- there was no Sanhedrin then. But the Rambam calls him king, and candidate for Moshiach so you clearly see what kind of “king” the Rambam was referring to. (He wasn’t even accepted by most Rabbanim- so kvodo aino mochul didn’t apply there either.)
CSParticipantQwerty
“So you’re saying that the Rebbe has been functioning as Moshiach for the last 33 years. The first three years he was alive and the last 30 as a dead Moshiach. So this will go on for another 7 years at which point he will be revealed as Moshiach for all the world. What will you say if year 40 comes and goes and he”s still interred?”
It’s a test of Emuna, I hope geula comes far before that. With Emuna, we don’t decide when a test begins or ends. Btw Rashi mentions 45+ years… but other sources just mention a test. I’m not looking for the latest date, I want the full on Geula to come now!!
- This reply was modified 1 year ago by Y.W. Editor.
- This reply was modified 1 year ago by CS.
CSParticipantJust responding in order here:
Gadolhadofi:“ So the rest of us are essentially worshiping a golden calf since we don’t accept the Rebbe, zt”l, who was niftar 30 years ago, as mashiach?
How fitting, since Klal Yisrael views those who believe so to be idol worshipers.”
No cvs, first of all, The Rebbe was mainly revealed to Chassidim, not the world at large (there’s 3 stages: 1) למיודעיו 2. לוחם מלחמות ד׳ 3. גילויו לכל)
Secondly, it’s not avoda zara for those who are failing the test, but the point is that we need enough people to pass. And it’s unfortunate to be on the losing side. Again this has nothing to do with the velt at large.
“Also, what is the kabalistic significance that 770 was allegedly an illegal abortion clinic before being purchased by chabad?”
No idea. Ishapcha of the highest order I suppose.
CSParticipantLet me give you an example. A celebrated older shlucha was invited to speak with us. One of the things she mentioned was how she was lucky to be by the Rebbe for Tishrei every year. In fact, she says, when we were by the Rebbe by Tishrei, we felt so uplifted that we didn’t even feel we needed Moshiach, because this is how it’ll be, but we’ll have to share the Rebbe with everyone.
I was shocked, because growing up on the Rebbes sichos, I couldn’t help but think, who cares if you were uplifted? Don’t all other yidden deserve to be similarly uplifted? And what about the fact that the Gilui Elokus when Moshiach comes will be much much greater than we could ever imagine because we’ll be able to see Hashem, and there will no longer be any concealments?? And what of the pain of the Shechina?
Honestly, if I had ever had such a feeling, I would’ve been embarrassed from my yetzer hara to say it out loud, it would reflect poorly on me as a chossid. But she said it and didn’t seem to have any issue.
I think this is because as I said, people were enthralled by the Rebbes presence whereas today were enthralled by his essence (teachings, direction etc) . She may have been on shlichus already when the Rebbe really pushed the urgency of Moshiach and geula, and so she seemed to have missed some of it that seemed so obvious to little me.
In fact, the difference was so stark that I was embarrassed to even ask her how she could say such a thing, so I didn’t. Of course she is an outstanding role model in many other areas
CSParticipantAAQ- there’s no new movement, there were two sides, and there’s still two sides. The difference is that- let’s say whether a family was meshichist or not came up in shidduchim back in the day, whereas now, my generation is just more mellow about it and let’s say I didn’t care which way my husband leaned because we all have the same foundation, and this is just one detail, and I would see on a date whether he was an extremist of any sort.
There’s also a generational issue of the ones who let’s say wouldn’t say the Rebbe is Moshiach were never taught the relevant Sichos in school until they were no longer impressionable and therefore they just don’t care. I had to fish for answers myself from what I was questioned by others to my teachers before I learned certain things.
BH though, my knowledge and my generations knowledge is not second hand. We can learn the Sichos and sources inside ourselves and see the videos ourselves.
Also, I’ve heard more than once from the older generation that The connection between my generation and the Rebbe is extraordinary and actually deeper than the ones who saw him. This is because we can’t be a chossid because it’s cool and just part of the atmosphere, we actually have to learn and internalize because there’s nothing cool to see. Also, The Rebbe have over so many treasures in his Torah and his Chassidim struggled just keeping up with it. There was always something new going on, especially in the later years. Whereas we were born into it, and have time to internalize all that which was given over in a measured, calm way.
CSParticipantQwerty, I don’t believe this is necessarily very important for outsiders to lubavitch to know and believe, I just don’t believe in hiding it when asked, because it’s privileged knowledge, not something to deny.
The Rebbe didn’t give reasons why he saw fit to gently let this out to those who cared to know, I can only speculate why.I don’t think it has anything to do with the Moshiach campaign in the general sense: The Rebbe galvanized lubavitch about the urgency of bringing geula with the primary reasons: caring for the pain of the Shechina, down to very physical reasons such as life infinitely better than how we know it.
Nor did this knowledge endear Lubavitch more to others. So why?
After years of thinking about it, what I think may be the reason is because firstly, it makes Moshiach more real and imminent. This isn’t another campaign like there havebeen countless throughout Jewish history, which didn’t pull through. Nope, Moshiach has already been anointed, we’ve already entered the beginning of Yemos HaMoshiach (which coincides with the end of golus, so Halachically there’s no changes yet), and it’s going to pull through till the end, and is also dependent on our help.
Also, knowing that The Rebbe is Moshiach gives us encouragement with following his directives in preparing the world for Moshiach.
Every group has their emphasis and hadracha. Say the head of neturei karta was to be Moshiach, then helping pull down the state of Israel would be where to concentrate our efforts in bringing Moshiach for example.
Spreading the Rebbes message of a geula that includes and reaches every single Jew, Jewish pride as the way to fight anti semitism, seeing the world as an intrinsically beautiful place, and working on bringing that to the for more and more, spreading sheva mitzvos bnei noach, are all the Rebbes unique campaigns, and knowing he’s Moshiach helps us to have clarity and certainty with how we’re leading and teaching others.
CSParticipantArso, no idea what you’re talking about. Here’s what it says in Hayom Yom introduction (and Beis HaRav
is well known):הגאון מרנא ורבנא יהודה ליואי זצ”ל – מהר”ל מפראג – מגזע הגאונים המיוחסים לדוד
בן ישי.
א( בנו הר’ בצלאל. ב( בנו הר’ שמואל. ג( בנו הר’ יהודה ליב. ד( בנו הר’ משה. ה( בנו הר’ שניאור זלמן. ו( בנו הר’ ברוך. ז( בנו הוד כ”ק אדמו”ר הר’ שניאור זלמן.
(שלשלת היחס, הקדמת ‘היום יום’)
The Rebbe is Ben achar Ben to the Maharal, who was known as having descended from Malchus Beis Dovid.CSParticipantArso
Firstly about Eliyahu hanavis arrival, as I said in the original post, it can happen at any one of the three stages (which is why we await Moshiach’s coming every day)“I have to admit I was waiting for those references. Yachuf bidvarim does not mean “encourage”, it means using words to “compel” someone. As in the first example you brought, where Rav Pappa said that if he enters the place in question, it is equivalent to compelling the person there to sign over assets. The Lubavicher rebbe encouraged but did not even use his personality to compel.”
In the first source, Rav Pappa did not even say anything! Just his presence was a force. I have heard shluchos tell me that we’re having a friendly conversation with a local Jew, and the woman said that you’re going to be so proud, I started lighting Shabbos candles.” When the shlucha hadn’t mentioned it.
The Rebbe said in chayei Sara 5751 that even if the album were just to tell every yid they met that they should keep Torah and mitzvos- they would fulfill this shlichus, and in fact, it has already been fulfilled. (Btw do you know how many people visit just Chabad.org yearly? And how in the beginning of the war, yidden who had never made contact with the local Chabad house reached out and started asking how to keep mitzvos etc? Just their presence created a positive pressure.)
Btw The Rebbes yichus up to the Maharal, is listed in Hayom Yom. It’s ridiculous to say he made it up as Beis HaRav is well known.
I’m sorry you’ve convince yourself that you can never think of The Rebbe as a tzadik. It’s ok, The Rebbe is still there for you edited
CSParticipantAAQ:
“ Did you see this personally? At that time – after the stroke – a choshuve local Rav publicly said that he called Rebbe’s secretariate and asked them how he can be helpful, and they asked him to state publicly that all the meshugas is NOT coming from them – and that is what he told us.”
Yeah this is exactly the issue which we need to overcome to move forward (and ties back to what happened to 770.) The Rebbe instructed the Chassidim to work in a manner of אורות דתוהו בכלים דתיקון and it seemed that after Gimmel Tammuz (and I guess it started before) there became two groups: people were either running with yellow flags and not bothering to see how others received it (אורות דתהו) or only caring to
look normal, and therefore deny the whole Rebbe Moshiach business (כלים דתיקון).At first it was fiery conflict unfortunately but understandably. My generation couldn’t care for the conflict, but the elder generation is in charge of 770, and that’s why there’sa vacuum of leadership, because 770 belongs to both ultimately so no one is really in charge.
If you look up L”S 11, p11, in the footnotes, The Rebbe says that when there will be achdus in the area of speaking about Moshiach, that will draw down Moshiach’s revelation. Peace in the world is dependent on peace within yidden. Peace doesn’t mean you all think the same but rather it’s like the idea of Echad (which holds space for yichuda Ilaah- Hashem’s perspective of no other existence at all, and Yichuda Tataah- our subjugation of our sense of existence to Hashem- that’s my edit).
So really the Hamas tunnels and 770 tunnels may very well be connected… peace and achdus is the call of the hour
CSParticipantAAQ
Regarding your question that this is too subtle “ CS > Beis Moshiach is gematria 770”You’re welcome to learn the sicha of shoftim 5751 in sefer hasichos where The Rebbe says that he’s saying higiah zman geulaschem as a navi. I have learned it but haven’t yet looked up all the footnotes in nigle sources etc.
Nevuah is supposed to return towards the end of golus/ towards the start of geula.
CSParticipantArso,
1) no one said that bracha, and see what I said about bar kochba2) that’s not in the Rambam s criteria of defining bchezkas Moshiach
3) did you look up all the sources?
CSParticipantQwerty:
The Rebbe had his initial revelation as Moshiach in 5751. There are many sources for this, you can ask your rabbi to go through with you inside if you’re actually interested.“You just said that you spend your time educating frum people who are Jewishly uneducated. By definition those pe.ople aren’t frum.”
If you’ll reread my post, I work with not yet frum and the frum people who help me can use more education in the infinite value of a yid, regardless of level of observance, the infinite value of a Mitzvah etc. and I do my best to share. Just reread the post. All there.
AAQ: The Rebbe nodded his head etc to yechi and yes I saw it although I wasn’t born then, because it’s on video. The Rebbe also answered life and Death questions among others in the same time period. He couldn’t speak because of the stroke. My mother got a bracha for my birth to be smooth and quick then (was much quicker than usual). However, even before the stroke, The Rebbe accepted Nachshons public recital of yechi with a smile, and the nshei women’s tambourine with yechi (picture of that too.)
CSParticipantJust to say, it’s kind of ironic, but I have frum people I’ve become friends with through mivtzoim- (they tell me who the local Jews are and I approach them, as they don’t have the training and education- as they say), and they help me in other ways as well. I’ve never, as an adult, had anyone ask me about The Rebbe as Moshiach, and I don’t bring it up either. Just because it’s kind of last on the list. Ie showing/ educating frum people the worth and infinite value of another yid, even if they’re not frum etc, the infinite value of a Mitzvah, and the importance of living with the awareness that Moshiach can come at any time, and the urgency to speed geula etc, that’s where my focus is. These are basics. We haven’t gotten past these conversations for now, and that’s ok. I really admire these Yidden for who they are and the light they spread. Just funny how this is always the first thing pressed here, when in real life, I wish someone would be that far along with caring about Moshiach and Geula that they’d feel comfortable to ask this in a serious way.
CSParticipantWhoops I was getting mixed up with North Dakota. I think my students do live in North Carolina. Sorry for the digression
CSParticipantActually maybe north virginia.
CSParticipantI have two students this year from North Carolina
CSParticipantSure Chabad would be happy to help! You can find places and numbers under Chabad dot org, more tools, Chabad locater.
Ps. It’s motzei shabbos in my locality
January 27, 2024 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm in reply to: Bli Neder no music until all hostages are free #2256594CSParticipantRespect.
CSParticipantGutte voch from my locality.
Arso, didn’t add a crucial point to number one: the example the Rambam gives as a candidate to be Moshiach was Ben koziba. He wasn’ta king anointed etc, but rather people gathered around him and overtired his instructions.
Gadolhadofi- sure, I believe it, 30 years later (sorry I thought it was clear.) sometimes it takes 40 years for people to understand things (just learned any that in reference to the geula in this weeks Dvar Malchus, BH, I’m not 40 yet but I’m past that part.
Ps the Rashi in Daniel says Moshiach will be concealed over 40 years after his initial revelation
CSParticipant@mods. Thanks. Posted again
CSParticipantGadol HaDofi:
Good morning it’s day 41. Logically, Moshe Rabbeinu is wrong. He said he would come back but the facts on the ground say otherwise. Oh, look at that! There’s a funeral going on in the heavens. There’s Moshe’s body in a casket! What should we do now?
What should we do now? Continue believing in Moshe’s words, and having bitachon that Hashem wrong and hasn’t abandoned us.
The Satan got directly involved by the chet etz hadaas, and by Matan Torah. Numerous sources indicate that there will be a similar Emuna test with the final geula.
When I looked into it (partly due to this forum) I found this:
און דער מינוי פון דוד מלכא משיחא איז דאך שוין געווען, כמ”ש “מצאתי דוד עבדי בשמן
קדשי משחתיו”. עס דארף נאר זיין קבלת מלכותו ע”י העם און די התקשרות צווישן דעם מלך מיט דעם עם בשלימות הגילוי – בגאולה האמיתית והשלימה.
)ש”פ משפטים תנש”א, ספר השיחות ח”א עמ’ 330(So Moshiach has already been anointed, and הגיע זמן גאולתכם
So I choose to be a maamin. Truthfully, it’s not that hard as I see the Rebbes influence constantly, both in my life and others. There’sa weekly story with post Gimmel Tammuz stories printed in the children’s weekly magazine, hachayol. I have my own stories, but the main influence is the Rebbe’s teachings which are so relevant more than ever, and contain enough strength and light to guide us to the final geula, so that even now, we have אור במושבותם.
CSParticipantAh shame. Ok I had other points in there too. In short:
1) Rambam must be understandable and applicable as We are to use his halachic criteria for defining candidates for Moshiach. Regarding Melech- if he’s just starting off the process in golus and we’re not even sure he’sa candidate- he wouldn’t be a king anointed by Sanhedrin. The deals pretty done by then. The meaning is Rabbanim who are called kings- מאן מלכי רבנן. The emphasis on king is that he has a commanding kinglike presence/ leadership.
2) if someone has traceable yichus, they fulfill the criteria. If you are waiting for Sanhedrin, you make this criterion irrelevant and obsolete.
3) enjoy the sources. Regarding yachuf- here’s sources for future reference:
כ״ה בכ״מ בש״ס שיכוף הוא בדברים – ראה כתובות נג, א וברש״י. שם עז, א. תוס׳ כתובות מט, ב. תוס׳ ב״ב ח, ב. תוס׳ חולין קי, ב. רדב״ז נדרים יג,ז. תויויו״ט אבות ג, יד. הובא בלקו״ש כו ע׳ 140. ועד״ז הוא כה ע׳ 458. וראה לקו״ש לה ע׳ 97.
ובנדו״ד – שיחת דברים תשט״ו. אחש״פ תש״כ. שיחות קודש תשל״ה א ע׳ 108. וכ״כ בפרקי תשובה וגאולה זאהן בשם הגרמ״פ בנדו״ד. וכ״כ הגרח״ק אשיחה שטילגליץ ב ע׳ רצט.
ישThanks mods. I guess I didn’t go through before
CSParticipantThose *sources. That should make more sense. I posted them all in a post. Ask the mods where it’s gone
CSParticipant@mods the post including the sources for arso hasn’t been posted.
CSParticipantJust to bring geula and give credit were due: the sources I posted for the Rambams word יכוף- compel, I’d used in relation to convincing with words- those spaces I didn’t compile. I asked a Rav once the question and got the list from him. Also the Rav said that the contemporary word for convince, ישכנע, isn’t a Lashon Kodesh word.
CSParticipantGadolhadofi- yes there were times The Rebbe was against it but later, he allowed/ embraced it. This is because the development of Moshiach and geula comes in stages. For example, Sichos in English wanted to print a book “From exile to redemption” with short points on the topic from classic sources. At first The Rebbe didn’t allow it because he felt the world wouldn’t take it well (nobody spoke of it moshiach and geula as a topic in its own right.) later on, he encouraged the printing.
The Rebbe never said I am Moshiach, accept me. But he did say in public talks which were printed in the Algemeiner journal btw, strong hints, such as, “Moshiach has already been anointed and is starting his mission,” “Beis Moshiach is gematria 770” “I don’t mind if you say that the Moshiach of the generation is the general Moshiach because it’s true,” stuff like that. If you look up Beis Rabbeinu shebibavel, you’ll see lots of this, and it was published.
Because The Rebbe never made a campaign to spread this knowledge, there are Lubavitchers who after Gimmel Tammuz would just like to bury it under the cover. But that’s not accurate. Also, after the stroke, the Rebbe encouraged yechi with the little time we had with him. And the videos were broadcast.
I think it’s important to tell the truth and also think that it’s important for Chassidim to know the facts, and if the Rebbe felt it was important to let us in on it, it’s important. I wrote a different post on why I think The Rebbe felt this was so.
CSParticipantHere’s what I’m referring to: I remember learning a piece from the reshimos (The Rebbes learning diary from before he became Rebbe) where The Rebbe asked why it’s necessary to await Moshiach’s coming every day, if Eliyahu HaNavi will precede him by three days. So logically, if Eliyahu hasn’t come yet, how can I expect Moshiach to come today?
The answer is that there’s three stages in Moshiach’s revelation: (trying to remember the exact lashon by heart, because Rabbeinu Bachya says similar so I’ll include both versions of the wording):
1. His first revelation/ to the ones that know him
2. Fighting the wars of Hashem
3. His revelation to everyoneAnd Eliyahu haNavi can come before any point in those stages, so we need to be prepared for Moshiach, even without.
So everyone can be happy now. For everyone (outside Lubavitch) it will be obvious when Moshiach is here, so you don’t have to keep fighting- you can just wait til stage 3.
For other sources on the stages, see Rabbeinu bachya who explains that כימי צאתך מארץ מצרים אראנו נפלאות just like Moshe revealed himself, and then the slavery
intensified just as Moshe Rabbeinu disappeared again, and then he came again and did the makkos, so too by the final geula this will happen and it will be a test of Emuna.Also see the Rashi on Daniel אשרי המחכה.
There may have been other sources listed on the Reshima (or not as it wasn’t for publication) but I haven’t had the pleasure of seeing it in the original
CSParticipantArso, if you’re gonna say we went through it, please add that we’ve gone through your points before (1-4). At least I think it’s been rehashed multiple times. Maybe not though, so brief recap here:
I haven’t learned the sugya in depth to the point that I could list by heart the references of how melech refers to Rabbanim with leadership personalities (as you admitted, the Rambam doesn’t make sense to explain as a literal king because then he’d be in Eretz Yisrael , anointed by Sanhedrin etc and the Rambam is speaking of the person who leads the process from golus)
2. If Beis HaRav are able to trace their lineage, and you have no logical reason to dispute it (besides the obvious issue of saying they were lying), what’s your point? I also remember learning, that Moshiach can be descended from Malchus Beis David through his mother- and that was in relation to the Jews for Judaism course on fighting christinity if I’m not mistaken, and the reason why the rabbits bring this up with yoshkes lineage lhavdil, is because the christians don’t believe in Torah shebaal peh so we fight them with their weapons. So apparently that source is in Gemara- again calling all the learned menfolk on that
3. In the language of Halacha, compel is also used to mean convince with words (we won’t need policemen when Moshiach comes, as Hashem promises to return our judges but not policemen, and you think Moshiach is the guy who has to physically compel people to listen to him? And with no policeman- cuz we’re in golus. Like you said you don’t understand your own understanding of the Rambam)
I think that was all your points.
Just a disclaimer, I have a reliable source to say that the Rebbes main aim was not to convince the world that he’s Moshiach, at that point, but just to let the c he chassidim know.
I wrote a post here why I think The Rebbe thought that was important, but it wasn’t posted…
January 24, 2024 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm in reply to: Question of the day: higher gan Eden for reshaim #2255988CSParticipantAvira,
“The Lubavitcher rebbe, did not openly inject outside ideologies, but his novel ideas are outside the mesorah – we don’t find them in any chasidishe group, including chabad, before he took over.”
A) you say they’re non Jewish but then say they’re just novel. Novel doesn’t mean non Jewish- The Rebbe was very passionate about keeping our heads free of non Jewish ideologies.
Secondly, I’m curious if you can quote any sicha where The Rebbe made up completely new ideas with no source. Or is this another complete slander of a Tzadik?
Gadol hadofi- exactly!
January 23, 2024 6:18 am at 6:18 am in reply to: Question of the day: higher gan Eden for reshaim #2255725CSParticipantAgreed GDH. Say someone is a follower of R’ YB Soloveitchik, and is discussing sending their child to college. I could vehemently disagree and think it’sa bad idea based on my chinuch, and I would quote The Rebbe, and show what happens to many who attend college etc. But ultimately, if this person decides to send their Rav’s derech and send their kid, I respect that. And I would never say things like, “When I see rabbi Jb’s musings, I realize more and more how off he is hashkafically.” Such a statement is pure chutzpah and against kovod HaTorah.
Especially within Chabad, a maamar (and hour much more so bosi lgani) was literally gilui Elokus, Shechina midaberes mtoch grono shel Moshe- The extension of Moishe in our generation.
The Rebbe took the saying of a maamar very seriously and would only say it on special occasions, after the hachana niggun, in all due seriousness, holding onto the tablecloth like his predecessors, so he would stay in this world etc. Quoting from all over Torah, both nigle and nistar.
(Sometimes, The Rebbe would ask for the tapes and express surprise at things he had said- in the moment he was just a conduit.)
This imagery, and the disrespect spoken is jarring. I don’t even think it reflects on The Rebbe, but rather on the persons attitude towards his own Torah leaders. I don’t take it personally anymore. Nevertheless, there’s a chiyuv to protest when the honor of Torah is trampled, so I did.
January 23, 2024 2:07 am at 2:07 am in reply to: Question of the day: higher gan Eden for reshaim #2255654CSParticipant2 points: point 1- it’s logically silly to pass judgment and decide what’s within mesora etc. when you’re nowhere near the subjects level in yiras shomayim/ Torah knowledge. If you would’ve said that my comparable community Torah leader said that this passed of Bosi LGani is off limits to us litvishers that’s different.
2. I understand that if you believe your whole purpose in this world is to collect schar in gan Eden, then I understand how this discussion is disturbing and incompatible.
I agree that this is a huge chiddush (and am also happy to hear if there is an alternative way to understand the ois by those more knowledgeable than me), but for a Lubavitcher, our Yiddishkeit is based on different foundations (fulfilling Hashems Will and Desire, and striving to become closer to Him, with rewards and punishment as a back burner fact.) so this isn’t threatening but rather comforting as it may be that for any Aveira/ enjoyment of Olam hazeh for its own sake, we will need to go under painful purification (Tanya perek ches), so I was thrilled to discover that I could feel Hashem there too.
Just to end off: When The Rebbe was five years old, an adult once told him to remove his yarmulka. The Rebbe replied, M’tur nit- we’re not allowed! The man answered, “I’ll take the aveira.” The Rebbe responded, “Who cares whose aveira it is?!”
That’s the difference. Is it about what your score is, or about what Hashem wants?
January 21, 2024 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm in reply to: Question of the day: higher gan Eden for reshaim #2255354CSParticipantJust to be melamed zechus, in case you didn’t know, this is how the Frierdiker Rebbe described the Rebbe (before he was Rebbe and the extent of his Torah knowledge:
“The Frierdiker Rebbe sent a delegation of Chassidim on his behalf to greet the Rebbe and Rebbetzin. They were: Rabbi Y. Jacobson, Rabbi S. A. Kazarnovsky, Rabbi S. Levitin and Rabbi E. Simpson. On the previous evening, the Frierdiker Rebbe had summoned these Chassidim to his room and told them: “I appoint you as my emissaries to go and greet my son-in-law, who is arriving tomorrow. I will reveal to you what sort of a person he is: every night he says Tikkun Chatzos. He is fluent in Shas and poskim; in Yerushalmi, with all of its commentaries, he knows the Rambam and the Likkutei Torah verbatim — with all of its sources. Go and greet him!”
January 21, 2024 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm in reply to: Question of the day: higher gan Eden for reshaim #2255353CSParticipantAvira I quoted the other sources accurately, I just misread the footnote which was to another nearby quote. And I posted to correct it. He definitely attributes that piece to The Tzemach Tzedek, but it wasn’ta clear footnote, and I’d need to look into it, which I’d be happy to do if you were gonna do serious research. I have limited personal learning time on a daily basis, and the bulk is currently reserved for the Rambam (aside from Chitas) with the footnotes so I can see what’s relevant today
January 21, 2024 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm in reply to: Question of the day: higher gan Eden for reshaim #2255318CSParticipantSorry I quoted the wrong source for the Tzemach Tzedek. If you’re planning on looking it up, I’ll see if I can locate which maamar it was.
January 21, 2024 9:47 am at 9:47 am in reply to: Question of the day: higher gan Eden for reshaim #2255156CSParticipantAvira you also seem to be forgetting that every Yid is filled with mitzvos as a pomegranate is filled with seeds (that’s Gemara, not Chassidus) so of course he belongs in gan Eden after he’s been cleansed.
This doesn’t mean that all poshim rise above Tzaddikim- that was my takeaway that it could be possible. For example yeravam was offered by Hashem to do teshuva, and if so, he would rise above everyone but Dovid HaMelech. He declined when he heard Dovid would be first. Interestingly, Dovid himself experienced much suffering/ teshuva which is maybe why he would still come out on top.
And I know we’re not discussing teshuva but rather gehennom. Point being that Yeravam also wasted time on aveiros and was machati es harabbim, yet- if he would have done teshuva he would’ve ended up at the top.
This is the power is teshuva- it derives from above Seder Hishtalshelus. Similarly, a nisayon brings out the etzem hanefesh when overcome properly. So it seems here that gehennom can have a similar sobering/ maturing effect.
Also worth mentioning that in gan Eden- the malochim/ people are called omdim- they rise only one level at a time. It’s possible that the dark suffering of gehennom can elevate a person higher than sitting in gan Eden for the same amount of time would
January 21, 2024 9:47 am at 9:47 am in reply to: Question of the day: higher gan Eden for reshaim #2255149CSParticipantYes, there’s sources. Imrei bina from the Mitteler Rebbe on the concept of Hashem being found in gehennom just as much as gan Eden. As tehillim 139 says, אם אסק שמים שם אתה ואציעה שאול הנך. Comparing the two.
And the idea of punishments being Chessed for the person, morid lsheol vayaal etc, he gets from the Tzemach Tzemach Tzedek- (ש״א ב,ו)
The Rebbe is always quoting sources, but you’re right. Chabad has alot in common with every Jew/ group, but we’re also significantly unique.
For example, as opposed to focusing on rewards/ punishment) which of course is there, we focus on revealing how this world is Hashem’s Garden / bridal chamber (bosi lgani/ lignuni- Shir HaShirim) and bringing the ultimate Shechina back home here in this world, which will culminate with Moshiach’s coming.
Hence, we’re more obsessed with the opportunities and zechus this world has to offer than the next world, we’re much more Moshiach focused, and we embrace the idea of Geula HoAmitis VHaShleima encompassing every single Jew, hence the need to reach out to others instead of secluding ourselves.
January 20, 2024 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm in reply to: Question of the day: higher gan Eden for reshaim #2255126CSParticipant@Avira you can’t really say that acher is a different story because The Gemara also says that Poshei Yisrael are filled with mitzvos like a pomegranate, so every yid has what to hang out in gan Eden for, assuming they make it there before techiyas hameisim, which in the past, the vast majority probably did
January 20, 2024 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm in reply to: Question of the day: higher gan Eden for reshaim #2255116CSParticipantHi, nice to see this thread up, it wasn’t approved the first day, and now I get to see the basi LGani discussion on yud Shvat.
Avira and whoever, the way The Rebbe explained the sugya was by explaining that the Torah is Toras Chessed and even the punishments are there to help the person. My question was based on the part where The Rebbe spoke about yerida ltzorech aliya, and said how just like with acher, the more deeper/ painful experience gehennom is, the lower he goes, the higher he’ll end up afterwards.
My understanding is that this is like a nisayon, which, although involuntary, has the ability to lift the person higher and closer to Hashem than his contemporaries afterwards, even though the nisayon wasn’t his choice. Similarly, if I were to go through the sobering darkness of gehennom (which I’m definitely not hoping for), I could technically grow closer to Hashem, Who is closer in the darkness, than the stage by stage light of gan Eden.
Not that I’m looking to do that because A) it’s not the plan A ratzon Hashem, and B) an incredibly painful experience
CSParticipantAAQ
“So turns out , most of us here were Chassidim to begin with.”
You’re a chossid if you accept the Rebbe as your own, but yah The Rebbe wanted every Jew to be a shliach in his own way.
“So it seems that L Rebbe decided that he educated his students enough to be self-responsible.”
Sort of. More like the Rebbe is inspiring and guiding but more backstage instead of taking front and Center stage. The advantage is that people actually internalize the Rebbes message and teachings and make it their own instead of just doing things automatically because The Rebbe said so, without it being their own
CSParticipantJust my two cents, The Rebbe gave us enough avoda to work on till Moshiach’s coming, and tasked our generation with bringing him. On 28 Nissan 5751, The Reeve said that the only reason he could see that Moshiach hasn’t come yet is because it needs to pass from being the Rebbe/ leader’s obsession with everyone following along, to the personal project and passion of every man woman and child, until someone gets it done.
As mentioned, The Rebbe set up a system of personal Mashpia/ Rav to discuss personal questions with, and all of us today find personal connection to The Rebbe in whatever form that takes (writing/ iggros/ Jen/ The Rebbes Torah/ niggunim etc)
So Lubavitch is definitely not leaderless, the center stage
is the regular people’s by design.Just a fascinating note, I just learned L”S 11, p11, footnotes, (from 5729), that Moshiach will come when there’s achdus in the inyan of talking about Moshiach etc…
“And through the achdus of yidden, there will be achdus in the world in general. Achdus is like the inyan of Echad (vs. yochid-ED)- people will retain their different opinions but will be in a state of achdus.”
It seems like we’ve gotten a wake up call to pull this tether now, and it seems from the response that this is already happening BH.
CSParticipantNice discussion. The main question to address is what are people uncomfortable about? Is it Ignorance on why we do it? An excuse to tease Chabad for being different? Personal uncomfortability with displaying Yiddishkeit in Public (like that helped in the Holocaust)? And anyway- the police will respond if there’s any hate attacks etc and people know that so….
Once you understand the questioner, you can answer better. But that is hard to do on the internet where you don’t see the full person and can’t have a real conversation through. So… keep having fun? And if you feel you aren’t being addressed- find someone
Chabad in person- we’re not shy:)CSParticipantTo be fair, I feel the Lubavitchers answered many of the things I listed in this discussion.
CSParticipantBsd
Coming into Yom Kippur here’s some thoughts:We have a relationship with Hashem like a boss and worker. If the worker messes up, his pay can fairly be deducted. If he messes up too much, he gets fired.
So our brochos in our new year are dependent on our work we do for Hashem with Torah and Mitzvos.
But there’s a deeper dimension. Hashem is our Father too. So if a worker messes up, he gets fired. But if the boss is his father, he can express sincere remorse and intention on changing, and the father will gladly give him a new chance.
A Father wants to help his child and always cares for him.
On Yom Kippur, עיצומו של יום מכפר. When we tap into (through teshuva) the essence of the day, the holiest day of the year, which reveals within us how we are one with Hashem’s Essence, everything else external automatically falls away. This is the gift of the day where we naturally feel one with Hashem. Let’s embrace it and then bring it down to fuel the rest of the year with that memory and awareness.
Because that’s where it counts.
גמר חתימה טובה
CSParticipantFinally mdd I’ll leave you with a question, do you
learn daily a balanced seder of nigle and nistar (as appropriate) sefarim?CSParticipantJust so you know though, I learn many other sefarim through Chassidus. It quotes from all over Torah. I’ve probably learned pieces of sefarim that you haven’t:)
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