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Just for everyone’s info: taking a public stance
comes with liability. My father was a Bochur during the gulf war, and the lubavitch bochurim would go to the rooftops during sirens and watch the scuds explode. The Rebbe promised…Arso I looked up צפונות שנה on Hebrew books as you suggested. No such sefer there.
Mod: “Rav Chaim saying he met moshiach is not ‘same here’ to claiming he is moshiach.”
Of course not, but it seems the problem here is that people don’t believe anyone saying anything out of the ordinary, and think that if they do, they must be delusional, arrogant and fooled their followers. Hence my bringing in Rav Chaim Kanievsky, the Sar HaTorah (better DaMoshe?) of the Litvish world. As far as I know, it isn’t common to claim to have met Moshiach, and he has passed away since. So I’m curious how people take that- the same ones who are so incredulous about Chabad.
Apples and oranges
Gutte voch from my locality. Gezh last names are usually known. If your last name is Johnson etc, you’re not. The whole lubavitch is connected so easy to find out who’s who.
Btw regarding Rav Kanievsky, it’s well known he claimed to have met Moshiach. Having heard that he was a serious Talmid Chacham, Gaon etc I take that at face value. I’m curious if all the scoffers here scoff at their own Rabbi too? And say he must be arrogant and delusional cvs to say such a thing? Or they only scoff when it comes to lubavitch? I don’t think anyone demanded proof or outside sources to prove he want some sort of delusional rasha etc as a few here insinuate.
He said what he said and is up to you to believe him. You believe him if you know him to be a legit person. Same here
Rav Chaim saying he met moshiach is not ‘same here’ to claiming he is moshiach.
Qwerty,
“I should have made my point more clearly. Hashem gave Moshe signs that had been passed down from Yaakov and Yosef. He brought those signs to the Gedolei Hador and they recognized him as the Goel Tzedek. The Rebbe made up signs that he gave to his followers. If the Rebbe actually had communication with Hashem then he should have gone yo the Gedolim to get Haskamah. It’s quite obvious why he didm’t choose that tack”
Qwerty, The Rebbe wasn’t trying to prove anything to anyone. As I said there’s a three stage process, and at this point, The Rebbe was only interested on letting those strongly connected to him, know. The stage of Moshiach Vadai hasn’t happened yet. The preliminary stage is about the people deciding who is a candidate, for Moshiach with their Rabbanim etc.
BH we are blessed with many towering Rabbanim- I have a personal connection with 6 myself. Rav Schochet who just passed away is irreplaceable: he had some level of ruach hakodesh himself- he was instructed by The Rebbe to give brochos on Shmini Atzeres every year- and in his brochos- would actually tell them how their year would go, and he would deal with things that others didn’t feel they had a handle on- say- people who were possessed but otherwise mentally well, and interpreting dreams. Obviously in addition to all the regular stuff.
Arso, interesting admit Rav Chaim Kanievsky. I saw a newspaper clipping from the period- it ran a headline on the Rebbes claim- it didn’t say several Torah leaders including the Lubavitcher Rebbe claim…
Was he public about it?
Secondly, you have homework now: (I’ve saved mine from the other day): 1. Proof that The Rebbe said not one Jew will die
2. Proof for your claim that indeed two Jews died directly from the rockets
Btw I can agree with qwerty on yedios in rashi:
The Rashi Sichos are quite spectacular:
The Rebbe lists up to 20 questions on a Rashi.He gives the answers given by various mefarshei Rashi.
He shows how the answers given are inadequate.
Then he gives one answer which shows the Rashi in a completely different light. It also automatically answers all the up to 20 questions listed in the beginning.
Sometimes it stops there, but my favorite is when he adds יינה של תורה- the lesson for life that The Rebbe found within the same Rashi.
My favorite (I haven’t learned all of them) is the 6-8 page sicha on the seemingly very simple Rashi: ועשו לי: לי לשמי בית קדושה and the incredible horaah bachayim at the end.
Qwerty, the Rebbe did maintain geula will be for every Jew. Firstly, I don’t know if you’re aware, but even a nevuah that is negative can be nullified if people do teshuva etc. Secondly, the Rebbe certainly had sources of his own to prove the opposite. If you’re really interested, you can find the topic listed in the sefer שערי גאולה- ימות המשיח. It should just the relevant sources as well.
The Rebbe never said, the Gemara says this but I know better cvs.
To YB: You say you’ve learned the shoftim 51 sicha. Did you look up the sources quoted and see the context etc? Ie Did you learn it properly? Secondly, are there things there that are wrong/ misquoted etc? Yes Chabad are unique: we focus our Avodas Hashem on building Him a home He’ll be comfortable with, in this world, which will be revealed to all when Moshiach comes. This is a Medrash Tanchuma, brought as a central theme in Tanya and elaborated on by all the Rebbeim after. This isn’t wrong, it’s just different.
You reference the Rebbes statement that Avodas habirurim has been finished. Have you asked any Lubavitcher what that means? Or at least looked up the footnotes? The Rebbe elaborates on many themes throughout the Sichos, and refers to them in shorthand in others. That’s why me and my husband each have a weekly kevius of a year of Sichos we’re learning week after week so we can properly understand the depth, and see the build up of concepts. It sounds like you just opened the sicha to confirm to yourself that Chabad is crazy, read a few lines or maybe the whole sicha with a cursory reading, and slammed it shut- mission accomplished.
There’sa saying of the Rebbe Maharash: the only one fooled by a fool is a fool, and what’s the accomplishment of fooling a fool?
Feel free to correct if the above is not as stated.
Btw regarding a sign, during the period of the gulf war the Rebbe referenced the yalkut shimoni talking about how in the year Melech HaMoshiach will reveal himself, the Persian king will start up with the Aram king (the Rebbe saw this as the American king) and the Jews will be scurrying in fear (as they were in light of the threats of Saddam Hussein- which only recently did we see just how big they were), and Moshiach will tell them, humble ones, the time of your redemption has arrived!
The Rebbe told everyone who asked there’s nothing to fear and you should not leave EY, and indeed the war turned out the way the Rebbe said. And he was the only one saying so, publicly assuring everyone. Yeah that was one of the things I was talking about in 5751
Qwerty, I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you haven’t seen a sicha before. A sicha has many many footnotes frum many other sources in the Torah, think of it as a compilation of Torah sources on the given subject with the Rebbe tying it all together and bringing out a few chiddushim, as any Gaon would do. I referenced the sicha because you’ll see the many sources on
the topic you mentioned, and you can look it all up yourself. Opening a sicha does not mean that you’re just reading and believing something that’s all the Rebbes imagination. Sorry I had thought you were familiar.Qwerty which Gemaras did he reflect in favor of his ideas? You mean in an area where Kabbala differs? Or a different Gemara shows it differently? Curious what you’re talking about
It wasn’t meant as a personal dig- qwerty has posted many times that he cannot understand Hebrew sources. I think it’s not nice you’re taking a fact of life and pinning it as a personal dig on my end. Assuming that’s what you were referring to
And like I said, that’s inaccurate. The person’s values are always first to those who care about gezh.
Then, some see it as a priority to marry those from similar backgrounds. Many don’t. Those who are more modern don’t really care at all. There are even marriages in Chabad where the shliach became mechutanim with the mekurav (I think the first was in Italy.) sholom Mordechai rubashkin is gezh- his aishes chayil is a bt. Choni milecki is a son of bts- he married gezh. These are well known names you may have heard but there are plenty plenty more. People would have a hard time marrying ffb if they are bt, which is completely understandable. But children of bts can go either way. Some families would prefer to marry gezh and some don’t care. As a child of bts I highly respect some gezh families, some who would consider children of bts and some who wouldn’t. These families are inclusive of bts in every way, and there is absolutely no difference or hierarchy in school, teaching positions etc, but they would prefer their kids marry similar background which I totally understand. A bt home cannot compare to a sincere gezh home that has been Chassidim for generations. Bts have their own maalos which gezh don’t, and some families are open to it and some not. In either case, preferring your child marry a similar family background is not shallow, considering there are authentic reasons behind it. And definitely not comparable to a guy putting physical attributes at the top of his list.But other
- Sorry qwerty for the delay. If you wish to understand the whole topic of Nevuah returning before Moshiach, I can refer you to the sicha of parshas shoftim 5751. Of course don’t just learn the sicha, but look up the copious footnotes on every page of sources. You can ask any of your Chabad rabbi friends to learn it with you, but really, you can learn it with anyone who can learn sources inside. Of course I’d love to hear your reaction when you’re finished. Do keep us posted! personal dig edited
Ctlawyer- you don’t have to worry about qwerty and Chabad too much. He davens in a Chabad shul and is an avid admirer of rabbi Zajac, a Chabad rabbi in California. He loves the Rebbes Torah too as well. Unfortunately, because he takes lashon hara about Chabad at face value, he’s chosen to believe some misinterpretations by outsiders of Chabad teachings.
Therefore he enjoys spending free time as a holy warrior against Chabad.Of course if he really believed the drivel he writes against us, he wouldn’t have so many close personal associations with Chabad. I think he’s in it for the fun.
Qwerty feel free to correct on any of the above
Arso- I’m sorry for confusion- my two posts were posted out of order.
If you reread, you will see that the Yerushalmi interprets the posuk as referring to every Jew, while others interpret it as referring to Moshiach. There is another outside source The Rebbe often brings which says that any Torah interpretations on the same words are related. I don’t remember it offhand but can post the next time I see it. Hence from the above, the Rebbe concludes that the connection is that every Jew possesses a spark of Moshiach which is why the same words refer to both.
Thanks for posting your source. I’ll look into it iyH. I saw something interested last night regarding how matrilineal lives are ok- because apparently Rebbi was descended from Dovid HaMelech through his mother. I’m still waiting to see the source inside myself. Will keep you posted if of interest iyH
I vote ctlawyers comment as the most sensible in this page, and Damoshes as the funniest. Further questions will be addressed at my next opportunity. Arso, you sure you can’t find a source for what you’re saying about the Maharal like the many you ask I bring? I saw online on a frum site, a contemporary book written ostensibly proving that the Zohar is no good. You can find many ridiculous things online.
There was a nigle source for the spark of Moshiach- I don’t remember offhand, but will be happy to try and locate it again. It was a mefaresh on parshas bilamHad a minute- Arso:
In one of the prophecies of Bilaam it is written,6 דרך כוכב מיעקב — “A star shall go forth from Jacob.” In one of its tractates, the Talmud Yerushalmi7 explains that this phrase is an allusion to the King Mashiach. Elsewhere,8 the Talmud Yerushalmi explains it as an allusion to every individual Jew. (The Talmud there relates that a certain gentile once dreamed that he had swallowed a star; it transpired that he had killed a Jew, for the Jews are likened to stars.)
These two interpretations are related, for within every single Jew there is a spark of Mashiach.
Footnote 8: Maaser sheni 4:6 (in Talmud bavli)
Arso, I wrote in my post that every Jews identity is really one with atzmus (realizing this and internalizing this is different for different people.)
In perek 42 of Tanya the Alter Rebbe explains about every Jew containing a spark of Moshe. I believe we’ve been through this. This doesn’t contradict- someone like a Rebbe- embodies Moshe more and regular people can t tap into it on their level. Same with Moshiach- there’s the one big Moshiach, and the spark of Moshiach in every yid
Arso, I’ve listed the Rebbes yichus up to the Maharal. Do you have a source you can list/ refer to on sefaria etc, that backs up what you’re saying about the Maharal?
I don’t have any knowledge other than the Maharal was miyuchas to Beis Dovid, feel free to provide.
Arso, I’m glad that other groups are also aiming for the same levels. Beinoni is a description of a level and so is low level tzadik. No one in lubavitch aims to Crown themselves with these titles. That’s ridiculous- opposite of bitul etc.
I wish I could hear more of these aspirations in other groups. Personally I have met some really sincere ovdei Hashem in other groups. One I know of- but I can’t really read her so to speak. The other person I encountered seemed very ehrlich but I wouldn’t get into unnecessary discussion with the opposite gender in person.
I do think that there are sincere ovdim in every group, however I find Chassidus Chabad lifts someone to a different level, so their sincerity is likewise elevated to a level they may not have aimed for beforehand. Feel free to show me otherwise.
Qwerty your latest posts are what you have decided did or did not happen in lubavitch over Lubavitcher Chassidim.
So there’s nothing to say…Avira, there are many such marriages in Chabad. There are some families that put a similar family background as one priority, and that’s better than putting physical characteristics. Maybe look into your facts before you present them:). I also know of many more modern Chabad who would put looks as a top thing. There are plenty of shallow people everywhere, but the ones who strive to be chassidim, will put their priorities in the proper order. Because they’re a different type of people than the shallow minded ones, not because they think they’re settling for second class.
Just for the sake of qwerty I’ll try to explain the Atzmus thing in simple terms. If you learn Tanya perek 6, it says that only something which is nullified/ batul, to Hashem can become included the category of kedusha. Chassidus teaches that Hashem Echad means that everything should realize that its true self and existence is from Hashem/ one with Hashem. The more batul and humble a person lives, the more kedusha they can channel. The Gemara also says that Hashem can’t a dwell with an arrogant person. Chassidus takes it further that there is no other existence other than Hashem (all of creation is Hashem’s speech which is one with Him from His perspective, so we just need to realize this and love this way.)
So, someone like a true Rebbe can even channel Atzmus- a person can sense this kedusha when they interact with the tzadik who has converted his yetzer hara to be another positive force (Dovid hamelech did this, and anyone who is a tzadik gamur of Tanya can too.) Really, the true existence of every yid is actually one with Hashem’s Essence, which is why we won’t have an identity crisis when Hashem is revealed by geula, whereas goyim will.
Obviously, a”z can’t come in the picture here, because if someone speaks from their own ego etc, they’re not channeling any kedusha in that moment. What’s more, they’re clearly not what Chabad would consider a Rebbe, Rosh Bnei Yisrael, because they still have unpolished yeshus/ yetzer hara to deal with.
Btw if you want to see current stories and experiences of people with The Rebbe, you can visit rebbestory dot org. There’s Lubavitchers and non Lubavitchers on there alike. I just saw a new story today with someone from an anti Chabad background.
And all the great awe, respect and trust we give The Rebbe- The Rebbe, at the end of the day is only Hashem’s servant and messenger. So you can imagine the depth of understanding about Hashem that Chassidus provides. וי׳הי מורא רבך כמורא שמים
Regarding bchezkas moshiach- some Lubavitcher Rabbanim hold that the chazaka was broken by Gimmel Tammuz. Others maintain that it so holds. Both have their sources. Additionally, before Gimmel Tammuz there was a psak din signed by also non lubavitch Rabbanim on the Rebbe being Moshiach. Here’s the kicker: it’s still active and there are activists visiting many different Rabbanim etc, going through the sources, and gathering signatures. I don’t think it’s available for the public, but I know it’s rabbi lipsh in EY who’s one of these activists, and I reached out myself about it at some point.
Since it’s of interest, here’s some sources to enjoy:
ot rooted in reality?
משיח נגלה ונכסה וחוזר ונגלה
אשרי המחכה וגו’. ארבעים וחמש שנים נוספים על חשבון העליון שעתיד משיחנו להתכסות אחר שנגלה וישוב ויתגלה. וכן מצינו במדרש רות, וכן יסד רבי אליעזר הקליר )בסילוקיוצרפרשתהחדש(ויתכסהמהם ְשבּוִעיםששה.
(רש”י דניאל יב, יב)משיח יתכסה כגואל הראשון
ויהיה הגואל נגלה וחוזר ונכסה כדי להתעות את העכו”ם ולהקשות את לבם, שכן מצינו בגאולת מצרים שנגלה להם משה וחזר ונכסה מהם, וזהו שדרשו רבותינו ז”ל: ויפגעו את משה ואת אהרן, אחר ששה חדשים נגלה הקב”ה במדין וא”ל: לך שוב מצרימה, בא משה ממדין ואהרן ממצרים ופגעו בהם שוטרי ישראל כשהם יוצאים מלפני פרעה. וכן דרשו במדרש חזית: דומה דודי לצבי, מה צבי זה הוא נראה ונכסה וחוזר ונראה, כן גואל הראשון נראה להם וחזר ונכסה מהם וחזר ונראה להם. וכמה נכסה מהם, רבי תנחומא אומר שלשה חדשים, הדא הוא דכתיב ויפגעו את משה ואת אהרן. רבי יהודה ב”ר אומר ללריסין, כלומר לשון פגיעה לפרקין היא. וכן הגואל העתיד יהיה נגלה וחוזר ונכסה, שהרי גאולה זו עתידה
(רבינו בחיי פר’ ויחי עמ’ מד)להיות כדמיון גאולת מצרים בהרבה ענינים.
נסיון גדול
וזה נסיון גדול שנעלם הגואל ששה חדשים, וכן יהי’ בימי משיח צדקינו, יהי’ נעלם אחר התגלות כדאיתא במדרש וה’ יעמוד לימין הצדיקים בבי”א.
(תורת משה פר’ שמות)Litvishe fellow: by nisyonos, numbers weren’t a factor. Chet haegel only one Shevet came through completely from all of the men. The women all passed. We don’t decide what’s right based on numbers. We trust our Rebbe, a tremendous tzadik and Gaon etc, who was the final one in a glorious line of Chabad Rebbeim. W are not the only ones who hold of the Rebbe so- and this is well documented. If people don’t see the Rebbe that way, there’s nothing to discuss as we have no common ground here.
Qwerty
“Being humble doezn’t mean refusing to do what Hashem wants because you feel unworthy. Being humble means that a person accomplishes a tremendous amount but he recognizes that it’s all thanks to Hashem”Exactly. So if Hashem informed the Rebbe that he has been appointed as Moshiach, and should start on his mission, and let those close to him in on it, why does that bother you that he did exactly that?
“In 1951 the Rebbe announced he’s Moshiach. In 1962 he announced he’s god.”
The first was not an announcement but hints given for a reason. The second is pure slander and falsehood. Sechel and Menachem Shmei did their best to explain the concept in their own ways, I think I may have explained as well- if you don’t understand it, doesn’t mean you publicly slander
Litvishe fellow- the whole Torah world is not missing the boat. When the geula comes along with Moshiach’s full revelation, no Jew will be left behind. For now this is still an internal lubavitch thing, probably meant to show us that Moshiach is really coming in our time and motivate us further to reshape the world in the Rebbes vision. I’ve actually never brought this up to non Lubavitchers and very rarely Lubavitchers, but seeing that this if the favorite line of discussion in this forum I would advise all Lubavitchers to simply answer, “Yes. Any other questions?” In the future
To the group
“The Gemara says that there were three great people Dovid, Avraham and Moshe. Dovid called himself a worm. Avraham said he’s dirt and ashes. Moshe was the greatest, he said he’s nothing. What did the Rebbe say about himself? I’m the Gadol Hador. Compare the Rebbe to Moshe Rabbeinu? I don’t think so.“
All these ones who says they’re nothing didn’t refuse their mission. Moshe didn’t refuse to get the Torah, Dovid didn’t refuse to become the king and’s ancestor of moshiach, Avraham didn’t refuse to start Hashem’s nation. Maybe toe confused on humility? Just as an aside, in Gemara the Amoraim we’re discussing that no one is truly humble anymore and one of them stood up and said it’s not true because he’s humble. No one scoffed. Do you know what humility is?
In any case the Rebbe never said “I am the (full in the blank)
And another friend married someone who is only half an inch taller. When asked if she was bothered, she said, she was surprised as she didn’t think it was something significant.
At the end of the day, the person we marry is a package deal, and will not be perfect. No one ideally skills feel they aren’t excited to marry the person they marry. It’s a matter of what’s priority
The formula we follow in Chabad is:
1) compatible Yiras shomayim/ values
2) hamshachas halev- attraction, which can be to personality, chemistry or looks. Basically more than feelings of basic ahavas Yisrael to the person
Which is why in many cases, it is silly to reject someone for attraction reasons based on a description or photo which doesn’t take into account charm and personalityI actually know of a friend who agreed to meet donating whose foot was amputated for machla, because she had learned that some people have obvious blemishes and some concealed. She was willing to meet him and they’rea special wonderful couple on shlichus. Those kind of messages are helpful
Agreed. GDH, ideally, no one should feel they’ve settled for something less then. However, putting physical attributes at the top of the list is shallow. I know of marriages where one side either didn’t ask for a picture, and ended up finding his bigger sized wife attractive because of her chein or personality. I know of a woman who met a young man and found him unattractive but went out with him a few more times until values/ personality etc overrode her initial reaction and it didn’t bother her anymore. Both couples are bH married. If someone makes a shopping list of all preferences for physical attributes as the top thing on their list, that’s shallow. Hopefully they’ll meet someone likeminded and shallow that works for them, or they’ll miss many potential good matches
Just curious: if I was aiming for gan Eden there’s at least one gemara that says that as long as I’m over 50% of doing the right thing, I’m good to go.
That’s a pretty low bar. I’m hoping everybody here reached that at least soon after bar or Bas Mitzvah.
One of the many things I love about Chabad is that it shows you how low you are, how much work you need to do, but yet how high you can reach, in an empowering way.
So, the starting point of real Avodas Hashem is to become a beinoni (someone who controls their every thought speech and action to be within the boundaries of Mutar etc) (otherwise you can’t truly rule your heart as a result of being a rasha.) But don’t worry. Even if you’re -30 steps, as long as you’re growing that’s great and you’ll be provided with international motivation and encouragement, credits due to Chassidus, to keep working your way up. Once you get there, it’s a whole new life, you don’t need to live with guilt etc. And it just gets better. Oh I forgot, the bar was upped to becoming at least a low level tzadik (someone who actually experiences love of Hashem palpably and disgust of evil) because our Nefesh habehamis is more refined today.
Honestly is there any other derech in Yiddishkeit today which expects so much (so you never feel done) and yet is so empowering and positive? I’d love to hear. See sources. People’s experiences etc
yb
You’d do well to read the rashi towards the end of last weeks parsha which spells out how one should relate to their Torah leaders…Qwerty
“I appreciate the fact that you respond to my comments in a non-confrontational manner.”Thank you
“ I also appreciate that you understand that none of your beliefs resonate at all with non-Lubavichers. You think that we’ve failed the test by not accepting your false Messiah, but you will have a much greater test which is to accept the real one. As for the comparison of the Rebbe and Moshe Rabbeinu. No human being who has ever lived can be compared to the greatest man the world has ever known.”
Firstly, I don’t think this test applies to you. This is for Lubavitchers whom The Rebbe was addressing. If you’d like a test, daven like you mean it when the nusach hatefilla asks for Moshiach’s coming, on a daily basis. Is that a good challenge? Maybe you’re past that already- if so don’t just daven for geula but for moshiach.
Rashi (Hosheia 3:4-5)
R’ Shimon bar Yochai said: “The Jewish nation despised three things in the days of Rechovam, 1) the Kingdom of Heaven, 2) the Kingdom of Dovid, and 3) The Bais Hamikdosh.” Said R’ Shimon ben Menasya: “The signs of Redemption will not be shown to Israel until they return and seek all three of them.”Good?
Also the Zohar says there’s an extension of Moshe in every generation. Obviously we hold off the Rebbe as such. You’re welcome to follow whatever Torah leader you like
Taanis 3a is discussing Eliezer where the primary importance was middos. The criticism was that he didn’t mention anything about her physical state (she could have been lame or blind.) If middos were put first and primary, and then looks included afterwards (ideas weight isn’t mentioned, let alone more superficial preferences), then this discussion wouldn’t be happening
Regarding the question conversation: I don’t think I’ve done it justice. See igeres hakodesh siman chof vov (post of Tanya. You’ll need explanation- you can find lessons of Tanya on it)
Sorry if I could just come in. No Lubavitcher school starts a niggun when someone has a question. A niggun of a tzadik led by a tzadik can do that in exceptional situations. On the contrary Chabad means we engage with the mind.
Questions do come from a lack of clarity. That is why in nigle sources, which deal with clarifying good/ evil etc. there’s many more questions than in Nistar, which is only about achdus Hashem (no matters involving tumah etc).
In golus, we ask many questions. In geula, we will learn in a way of seeing- things will be much clearer.
However, if one does have a question, obviously ask, or, ain habayshon lameid. Asking is great!
“ It’s worth noting that Chabad routinely refers to the Rebbe as the Moshe Rabbeinu Hador. Moshe shunned every honor. When Hashem told him to redeem Israel he begged that Aaron be theessenger. In contrast the Rebbe tried to convince his followers that he’s Moshiach.”
Moshe initially didn’t want to accept, but by the time he was supposed to split the Yam Suf, let alone
be the only one on Har Sinai with Hashem, he accepted his mission.Same with The Rebbe…
Qwerty: another slight correction: there was no pressuring from the Rebbe or the Chassidim on this issue. The Rebbe left it open for whoever wanted to accept (there is no king without a nation) and the Chassidim never pressured The Rebbe to declare himself Moshiach, rather they responded.
Qwerty
“ CS has clarified the Chabad position. In 1991 a delegation of Lubavichers approached the Rebbe and asked him to accept the Meashichas. He smiled which indicated his assent. At that point he became Moshiach and in seven years he’ll come back to life to declare himself Moshiach for all the Jews.”Not exactly. Firstly, there is no one Chabad position. This is a test of Emuna and various people approach it differently. Secondly, The Rebbe didnt just smile on one occasion – it was more said/done than that. Thirdly, there’s no date. Hopefully, Geula will arrive today.
“CS: “3) did you look up all the sources?”
I looked up ALL the sources you gave from Chazal.” Wonderful. You may have benefitted seeing the Rebbes sources to see how they came up.
“I have said it before, but “Beis Mashiach has the gematria of 770” is so childish that it’s cringeworthy.
Did you know – this is something I heard 50 years ago – that Chamor Bli Daas not only has the initials Chabad but that it too has the gematria of 770? If you want to prove things from childish gematriyos then be my guest.”Anyone can make up anything in gematria. If something is true, gematria brings it out as an extra point. It’s not a starting point. Remember the trump moshiach gematrias? Ridiculous. I didn’t make these up. Bochurim were quoting it in 770, and it only became significant to me when the Rebbe referenced it.
Arso:
“ CS: “2) that’s not in the Rambam s criteria of defining bchezkas Moshiach”What are you referring to?”
Simple. If you had to wait for Sanhedrin to verify yichus, the Rambams idea of bchezkas moshiach wouldn’t be relevant (besides it’s not even moshiach vadai.) also, your Sanhedrin criterion isn’t mentioned at all here in Rambam
Arso:
“ You claim that the Lubavicher rebbe fits the Rambam’s criteria, one of which is Mashiach will be a king. So why didn’t anyone – not even the greatest of chassidim – recite the beracha one recites when seeing a king? The obvious, and only, answer is that they didn’t consider him a king, and for a very simple reason… he wasn’t.Btw I believe that the expression מאן מלכי רבנן does not appear anywhere in Chazal. It is a paraphrasing of something said by an Amora in Gittin 62a, and according to that all Rabbonon are included. Nonetheless we do not find anyone, including the Amora who made the statement, reciting the beracha because even he did not mean that they had the actual status of kings. Proof being that Chazal say that a Rav can be mochel on has kavod but a king cannot. So clearly it is allegorical (that may be the wrong word, but you probably know what I mean).”
We definitely see the Rebbe as king in many ways- such as complete bitul to doing what the Rebbe says. Also, when a Rav pasken a something that creates reality, even if the world says something different.
Bar kochba definitely wasn’t annointed- there was no Sanhedrin then. But the Rambam calls him king, and candidate for Moshiach so you clearly see what kind of “king” the Rambam was referring to. (He wasn’t even accepted by most Rabbanim- so kvodo aino mochul didn’t apply there either.)
Qwerty
“So you’re saying that the Rebbe has been functioning as Moshiach for the last 33 years. The first three years he was alive and the last 30 as a dead Moshiach. So this will go on for another 7 years at which point he will be revealed as Moshiach for all the world. What will you say if year 40 comes and goes and he”s still interred?”
It’s a test of Emuna, I hope geula comes far before that. With Emuna, we don’t decide when a test begins or ends. Btw Rashi mentions 45+ years… but other sources just mention a test. I’m not looking for the latest date, I want the full on Geula to come now!!
Just responding in order here:
Gadolhadofi:“ So the rest of us are essentially worshiping a golden calf since we don’t accept the Rebbe, zt”l, who was niftar 30 years ago, as mashiach?
How fitting, since Klal Yisrael views those who believe so to be idol worshipers.”
No cvs, first of all, The Rebbe was mainly revealed to Chassidim, not the world at large (there’s 3 stages: 1) למיודעיו 2. לוחם מלחמות ד׳ 3. גילויו לכל)
Secondly, it’s not avoda zara for those who are failing the test, but the point is that we need enough people to pass. And it’s unfortunate to be on the losing side. Again this has nothing to do with the velt at large.
“Also, what is the kabalistic significance that 770 was allegedly an illegal abortion clinic before being purchased by chabad?”
No idea. Ishapcha of the highest order I suppose.
Let me give you an example. A celebrated older shlucha was invited to speak with us. One of the things she mentioned was how she was lucky to be by the Rebbe for Tishrei every year. In fact, she says, when we were by the Rebbe by Tishrei, we felt so uplifted that we didn’t even feel we needed Moshiach, because this is how it’ll be, but we’ll have to share the Rebbe with everyone.
I was shocked, because growing up on the Rebbes sichos, I couldn’t help but think, who cares if you were uplifted? Don’t all other yidden deserve to be similarly uplifted? And what about the fact that the Gilui Elokus when Moshiach comes will be much much greater than we could ever imagine because we’ll be able to see Hashem, and there will no longer be any concealments?? And what of the pain of the Shechina?
Honestly, if I had ever had such a feeling, I would’ve been embarrassed from my yetzer hara to say it out loud, it would reflect poorly on me as a chossid. But she said it and didn’t seem to have any issue.
I think this is because as I said, people were enthralled by the Rebbes presence whereas today were enthralled by his essence (teachings, direction etc) . She may have been on shlichus already when the Rebbe really pushed the urgency of Moshiach and geula, and so she seemed to have missed some of it that seemed so obvious to little me.
In fact, the difference was so stark that I was embarrassed to even ask her how she could say such a thing, so I didn’t. Of course she is an outstanding role model in many other areas