CS

Arso:

“What percentage of unmarried kids in, say, Satmar, Belz, Ger, Vizhnitz, Tsanz etc have access to unfiltered internet and to unfiltered smartphones? Now what is the percentage in Lubavich? I don’t know figures, but I do know that the percentage in Lubavich is many many times greater than in the other groups. The same is unfortunately true with kids – even kids of committed shluchim – going OTD. (If you deny any of this I will conclude one of two things: either you are lying outright or you are completely insane. I KNOW exactly what I am talking about, and I have been asked many times to deal with the problem specifically in Lubavich. I’m sure you’re surprised at that, but it’s true.)”

A gutte voch from my locality. Like I said, you cannot compare numbers where one group- everything is legislated from above, and those who do not keep the standards, do what they do, under cover, so they don’t suffer communal repercussions, (yes I have personal knowledge of this as well), and a community (us) where the responsibility lies with the individual to care and guidelines are suggested but not enforced (so that every child can have a proper chinuch for example.)

I was discussing this with a very frum local woman, not lubavitch, and she said lubavitch is ahead of the game, because in the rest of the chareidi world, the top down system is in danger because devices are so accessible.

My relative- who dressed more modern than he looked was told by a family friend’s son, in probably one of the most enclosed Chassidusin, that he has a smartphone with WhatsApp groups with all the hot stuff with his young feelings…

My relative was surprised because obviously the outside impression didn’t match, and ironically, he didn’t share this fascination with the “hot stuff” despite the fact he looked more modern.

Take this as an illustrative example. No I am not suggesting that there are no true Yarei shomayim in the other communities, but rather you cannot judge because of the different cultures, and ultimately, they’re more vulnerable than we are.

In my case, my husband and I experimented with the different limited filtering options available on our iPhones when we got married, and found the highest one too restrictive, so we settled for basic. This was not to prevent us for searching forthings we shouldn’t, because we had no interest in that. Rather we didn’t want to be surprised with vulgar sites that appeared to be something else. This is how it’s been for years, and we’ve learned more and more how to use our phones and move away from our phones using us (focus mode, 613tube, passion for learning etc etc), and now we’ve recently found a new interest in filters and bH to our luck, tag has told us that there is a new filter which is more smart at blocking out not tznius images or ads that pop up, while still allowing websites so we’re excited to try it out.

I know in the local Mesivta they teach the boys about the concept of filters (although they probably allow smartphones then, as is general policy) and of setting up password buddies for each other.

So it’s not that we don’t care, but it comes from within and you cannot compare to your world.

The only fair comparison, I think, is when the Soviet Union took away the whole communal pressure system by exiting the Rav and Shochet etc to Siberia. What happened to Berdichov which was 80% frum Yidden? And Zhitomir, at least 50%? We all know that Lubavitch was the only one overall (I’ve heard of one non lubavitch teacher who taught in Chabad’s hidden chadarim), who not only didn’t go frei themselves but kept up Yiddishkeit and community life (Mikvah, shochet etc) underground with extreme mesirus nefesh.

Yes there are the modern within Chabad, and the ones who go off. We have bechira chofshis. But our modern dress that way etc.

Yb,

I don’t care about normative Judaism vs Chabad unless you can list sources. I gave Chabad’s reasoning for looking a candidate based on the Rambam being a practical Halacha sefer, and also showed you it’s not from just this generation.

Alright, that’s it for my time for now. So long till next time
iyH

Yankel Berel:

“ All Rebeim are descendants of Beis Dovid .
But ONLY habad claims the title of Nasi .”

News to me. I don’t think every Chassidic Rebbe descended from Malchus Beis dovid and you’re welcome to prove otherwise.

“AND ONLY HABAD CLAIMS THE TITLE OF

“Nasi HADOR”

The whole generation .

Without even asking the generation .
I consider myself part of the generation . But no one asked me …

2] Are you insinuating other rebeim do not feel responsibility for all Jews ?????
Only the manhig of the habad hasidim does ?”

Obviously every Mitzvah of every Jew affects Klal Yisrael. But yes, say Satmar is not looking to engage every Jew from all spectrums and bring them closer to Hashem. They focus on their own community. I do this too. I do my bit in my corner of the world and know that’s doing my part of the whole. Most leaders lead their community and that’s wonderful. In fact I think every group is like this, not unique to Satmar. Please show me another leader invested in caring for every Jew to help them with their issues and needs. This is something extra special and no I don’t see it anywhere else- you’re welcome to show me

posted with apologies to Satmar

Just one more thought before i never see responses, I find the attitude of concern of דברי הבאי, to be a curious one. I suppose within Chabad, the attitude towards anything good(including the topic here- women’s learning) is more on the lines of

הבא לטהר מסעיין לו
מתוך שלא לשמה בא לשמה (אא״כ שלא לשמה ממש בשביל איזו פני׳ה כו׳)
הכל בחזקת כשרות

Etc etc. Along with a strong emphasis for personal responsibility to check with a mashpia/ Rav when in doubt. And my part of keeping my head cleared of non Jewish ideology/ philosophy, so I don’t mistake it for Torah.

Something interesting: I recently finished writing up bH a motivational Tznius farbrengen curriculum (80+pages bH), for a high school that commissioned it.

I had assumed that the male principal of the school, who was interested in upgrading the tznius program, would look it over, and it included the hashkofos I’ve learned and imbibed and also, I wanted to make sure to get it right because many girls will iyH be learning it.

However, it became clear that no one was planning on checking it, aside from the post sem leaders who were going to give it over.

I was very careful to write based on sources, and in fact, the leaders asked me to list exact sources so they could present them or look them up at will.

I was happy they asked and spent double the time annotating with sources- from Rashi, Rambam, Gemara, Mishna, Shulchan Aruch, Chassidus etc.

I asked a scholarly cousin to look it over, and my husband as well, but they weren’t interested in taking the time (if my husband was concerned, he would have been on top of it.)

There was one time I was going in a certain direction based on two contemporary speaker/ article, where my husband asked what I was looking up for, and then he shared something that helped me delete all that piece and start with a more positive approach. (Not women Maalos vs men, but rather only focus on the maalos of women.)

I also called a Rav once to check my hashkofa against a certain source that carried a different message.

And I know that the leaders will check with me if there’s anything they see that doesn’t seem right.

But that’s it. There’s alot of empowerment and trust within lubavitch in individuals. (That’s aside from the special attention the women as a community received from the Rebbe such as sichos just for women etc which is a different topic.)

AAQ,
“ If a lady shows interest in learning more in depth of mitzvos – that is what gemora is in the wider meaning – this should surely enhance her ability to look after her family yiddishkeit.”

Bingo. Not sure why this wasn’t obvious to all

Avira

“The vast majority of ehrliche women throughout history were completely uneducated in seforim. According to you, did they all indulge in goyishe things? Chas veshalom! A girl who grows up knowing what their purpose is and who is taught the dangers of goyishe culture will not get involved in such things, whether they’re chasidishe or litvishe.”

I think it’s easy to understand that we’re in a different world today which is why women need to learn to begin with. Back in the day, leisure ideas were completely different, treif wasn’t as accessible, and there was no Scop so girls received everything from home. I don’t need to repeat it all, I’m sure you can look up a bit of the history of Sara Schenirer.

But another point, sometimes we over glorify the past. I’ve read excerpts based on the Ramchal where Talmidei chachamim are advised to maintain distance from their wives so they don’t get pulled down…. Yes a lack of Torah learning can easily lead to superficial values.

Arso

“We all know – it has been discussed and never denied – that the tznius and mixing of genders in Crown Heights is far worse than in any other chareidi enclave. We all know that the number of children allowed unfettered use of internet and smartphones is far greater in Crown Heights that in any other chareidi enclave. Women putting the stress on learning gemoro and chassidus instead of looking after their children’s Yiddishkeit, is worse than counterproductive!”

Completely missing the point. Wanna reread or do I need to explain?

“Now if you are part of the minority who doesn’t allow the above in your home, well done (!), and Hashem should help you continue in your efforts. But we are not having a personal debate about you versus us. It is about what goes on in Lubavich versus the proper chareidi world.”

I think we’ve discussed this before. The other chareidim operate on chitzonius first basis. This is my info from my personal contacts. So if you have the perfect dress and keep the communal standards, your kids can go to the school.

In lubavitch we don’t work that way. We accept all kids in the schools and other institutions. Therefore, you will see people who are more modern dress that way so their outside matched their inside more or less.

Whereas in the other set up, if someone watches movies etc, they would likely still dress the same as everyone else.

This doesn’t mean lubavitch has less yiras shomayim overall, it just means we’re more transparent about where we’re at. It also means that since everyone can be honest with no repercussions, it’s likely easier for those who are more modern to mix and open up to the more Chassidish, whereas if you have to worry about external factors, that may inhibit those struggling to open up and get help.

It’s just a completely different community structure. Yes, you can enforce (with repercussions) the way someone dresses, but you cannot enforce yiras shomayim. Also, lubavitch embraces many different levels of Yiddishkeit and chassidishkeit, and we all mix with each other with an emphasis on ahavas Yisrael, so those baalei teshuva who have not gone the whole way, and the Ffb who has chilled, are equally as part of the community as the most Chassidish.

Whereas, as one Satmar woman told my mother (a bt) that she was happy to teach her homemaking skills once she was already frum, but if she had showed up to her house not frum/ tznius (as she did by Chabad), she would have closed her shutters and not opened the door.

So all in all, your comparisons are off.

Avira

“But some girls simply don’t keep what they’re taught.”

This is true.

“And if you want to start getting into anecdotal incidents…. those with glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Have you seen what became accepted in crown heights in recent years? Are you aware of how many girls – and boys – who can rattle off sichos but are engaged in kol minei nivalah?”

Coming from lubavitch, The ones who consistently are into learning and can rattle off the sichos in depth, are not generally the ones involved with that kind of stuff…

Yb

“1] for the last 2 thousand years yidden NEVER looked for ‘candidates’ . Full Stop.
The few instances some looked and FELL for [bogus] candidates, it invariably resulted in DISASTER.
This whole idea of ‘looking for candidates’ is UNHEARD OF in normative yahadut , and is a newfangled notion, introduced by habad in the last 60 years AS A TOOL for the tolerance / acceptance of “the one Asher habad hafets biyekaro”.
This is CRYSTAL CLEAR to any unbiased observer.”

This is an interesting point that it never came up in history. I know there was speculation about the third Lubavitcher Rebbe as well (same name also), but I’d like to look into this point more to see if it’s accurate. I don’t think Moshiach candidacy is necessarily unique to lubavitch Chassidus- I could be wrong- I don’t remember other names outright.

The premise I’ve always heard is that if the Rambam put the criteria for the Moshiach candidate in a Halacha sefer, then it’s meant for us to act on it.

As an aside, at the end of the day it’s how you view The Rebbes integrity as a person. If indeed he was a tzadik every observable moment, taught Torah etc, and led thousands back towards Hashem etc etc etc, then the logical thing at least to me, is to believe that when he did say these atypical statements, it was not for self promoting purposes (which anyone who came to The Rebbe felt that he highlighted their potential- not the opposite), rather this was his shlichus, and therefore his mandate to share.

Now, someone unfamiliar with The Rebbe may hear the Moshiach stuff and think in the opposite direction, especially if encouraged by their personal Torah leader. But let’s not kid ourselves that there is a one and only litvish leader, there were many with different extremes on how they related to the Rebbe. And the one often quoted did not only view the Rebbe negatively but started controversy with other Torah leaders too- let’s not pretend that this is something limited to the Rebbes personal integrity.

At the end of the day, lubavitch knows the Rebbe most intimately, and we make this judgment call of character to accept the Rebbe as our Rebbe, and therefore listen to what he says. It’s really that simple. A liar or imposter and a authentic Torah leader are worlds apart in character and teaching etc. And the thousands who are Lubavitcher Chassidim attest to the Rebbes integrity by their choice to be lubavitch.

Arso

“he did not fit any of the criteria, again, as I have pointed out again and again.”

Repeating it doesn’t make it a fact. We’ve personally gone through on this thread, yichus (I have the pages), yochuf (sources brought that it could be by influence / speech) and Melech (Rambams example).

Would you like to list more that don’t fit?

“CS, chabad are the ones who made a contest out of yiddishkeit. Do you ever use the phrase “kiddush Lubavitch”?”

I could say the same thing to you. Can you list the top ten current leaders amongst the sefardim? The Rabbonim/ mashpiim in Ger? Bobov? Etc?

It does seem that the bigger a group gets, the harder it is to know everyone within the community/ group, and we know “outsiders” even less.

I think the term kiddush lubavitch is a defensive term which you could ask yourself why it needs to exist… Not hard to understand when you see how lubavitch is maligned by some…

In any case, Chassidus teaches that all of Klal Yisrael are one body, with its leaders being the brain Neshamos, etc.

Every part of Klal Yisrael is important to the whole. Seeing it in such a light, a contest is ridiculous.

The Rebbe once said, if Satmar wouldn’t be so anti Zionist, we would need to be more…

Similarly, the yishuvniks risk their lives for yishuv haaretz and thereby protect so many Jews.

Satmar are renowned for their community wide Chessed/ bikur cholim etc.

The Litvish highlight the supremacy of Torah learning

And the list goes on and on…

One comment on the women’s learning discussion- which I was pleased to read- I know the effects learning Chassidus which includes all other parts of Torah- and especially knowing how to learn on my own, has done for me and my peers. Personally, it has allowed me to find pleasure in Elokus, to set my own learning curriculum based on where my current interests are in Avodas Hashem. And my whole home has been elevated by it. Torah learning is strongly encouraged in our home, and there is no time I’ve ever asked my husband not to go learn. We bH now have a daily Dvar Torah by supper time, and Shabbos is my heavenly learning time aside from family time.

All my peers who strive to be “Chassidish” (within Lubavitch), guard their homes from any non Jewish influence. There is no TV, non Jewish books (at least for entertainment purposes), and of course would never watch movies under any circumstances.

Contrast this with a woman who grows up in a very frum home and community, but wasn’t blessed to learn and see the deeper side of Torah, it’s not hard to understand why she may find her pleasure and down time in non Jewish movies, music, books etc even if she’s dressed tznius to the hilt, and the impact this has on her home…

disclaimer: mamash motzei shem rah

Someone mentioned that lubavitch Is in the minority of encouraging girls to learn Torah shebaal peh. I find that hard to believe. Please list the many communities, as you put it, who don’t teach their girls Chumash and Rashi ( Rashi is Torah shebaal peh)? I only know of one. Thanks.

Arso

“So dor shevi’i is only something made up to suit the circumstances. Which is the type of ‘proof’ or argument that we have been disputing all along.”

I don’t see where you got that. What I meant was that if Nesius would’ve ended with the Frierdiker Rebbe, there would have been no dor shvii as the dor goes by the Rebbe. Since we needed another Rebbe, that equals dor shvii

Gutte voch from my locality.

Yb
“Or , Phrased in another way – If you, CS, would be put in a ‘time machine’ , transported to the 1990 – 1994 era , and would be commenting on these pages , would you ‘explain’ those hazal like the shitah of ‘then habad’ or like you do now ?”

I have no idea. In my experience a) The women weren’t as involved in the combative politics and b) the whole era is a sensitive topic. Therefore I haven’t gotten clear info yet from the Chabad side on this but I’ll keep it in mind. Just to make sure I have you right, you say the reason others didn’t see The Rebbe as a candidate for Moshiach (obviously among the ones who didn’t) had nothing to do with the alive or dead debate? So what was it then? Just so I have you clear.

Secondly, of course there may be personal bias involved when learning- personally I question anything that doesn’t add up to me as things come up in learning. This is also why it’s so important to have the guidance of a mashpia and Rav so you don’t just go down a self deluded lane.

Aaq

Arso”AlwaysAsk, I disagree. If there are 2-3 talmidei chachomim who recognize someone as a t”ch, but many others consider him close to an apikorus, someone who misleads, or a meshuggene, the 2-3 are not enough. Especially when the detractors are recognized gedolei olam.”

Just for some truth, it’s much likely the other way around. Many many many respected gedolim held of the Rebbe. I think there’s even a sefer on it now, written by a past chasseedish chossid who became lubavitch, and did the research, so we don’t have to listen to lies like this.

Arso

It’s been some time since I looked up that Gemara. I had remembered the Rashi as only being two words, and now I see you did quote it correctly. My bad. So Rashi himself brings two ways of interpreting the reference to Rebbi and Daniel- 1 kgon, 2- interestingly he says HAINU- this is Rabeinu hakadosh if alive (then I guess) and then repeats Kgon when speaking of Daniel

“In the latest edition of Mishpacha it says that Rabi David Abuchatzira had a 50 minute private meeting with the Argentinian president, and very soon afterwards the hostages were freed.”

I’ve actually heard this Mekubal mentioned a few times recently (also that he met Moshiach.) I love hearing about actual Tzaddikim in our time. I wish there was a way to find out more about him. Of course, I’ve heard much about the Baba Sali as well and have nothing but the greatest respect.

“ What exactly do you mean by “So that’s it”? Do you mean that we can’t argue with it because you asked a ‘respected’ L Rav? If that’s what you mean, then I want to point out that if the Rav in question said what you claim he said, I, and I am sure many others on this thread, do not respect him at all.

And if by “So that’s it” you mean that you feel satisfied in maintaining your view, then it is simply another example of choosing what to believe in to suit yourself. Remember the moshol about shooting the arrows and then drawing the target?”

As far as I understand, if you aren’t sure about a question of Halacha or hashkafa, you ask your Rav. That’s what I did so that’s it for me. Don’t get how you see this to be drawing around arrows- hopefully this is normative frum behavior for you.

Because yes, Gemara, rashi, Ramban, sdei chemed are all Torah sources but not the only way of Halacha lmaase. I’m sure you’ve heard of shivim panim laTorah.

Happens to be this specific Rav I asked is so busy and usually quite curt- I felt bad to ask his sources, nor do I need to as there’s other learned people I’m in touch with.

And no, this isn’t the only type of Rav in Lubavitch. I’m very lucky to have found my main Rav who is very patient and we do go back and forth on hashkofa

@HaLeivi- when I say most Lubavitcher shuls, I should correct it to- many. I have no idea the actual ratio.

HaLeivi

“ What are the practical ramifications of deciding that a certain person is destined to become Moshiach?

Does it boil down to whether or not to say Yechi?”

Not really. Most Lubavitcher shuls do not allow public recitals of yechi. It’s really just an inyan of Emuna and feeling the imminence of Geula by living with a geula mindset and seeing signs of it in the world etc

Arso- not that I doubt it- he actually just went to the trouble of photographing about 6 pages of scholarly research about the Rebbes yichus- but that I know it’s not about answers with you. So I’m glad that it is addressed in that sefer, and maybe some other time I’ll take it further.

Yes I quoted the Gemara, and yes we were discussing. But you brought sources on the Rashi- (the Rashi itself merely lists the two kgons- shades of/ examples, and you’re deciding to read it like the interpretation that it means it can only be these two. Which I don’t have to do that. And even so, taking it further – it would seem even according to that- that that only applies to that very generation. So yes, there’s the Ramban, and yes there’s the explicit Gemara, The sdei chemed, abarbanel etc etc. And the Rebbe about his father in law which didn’t seem to be any issue before Gimmel Tammuz because I probably would have heard of it.

Yes the 2 hostages families took on hachlotos, when urged to by shluchim. Guess where that inspiration came from?

And yes I think it is horrible to make a ceasefire- there could have been another way for them to be released as just happened. Fact is though- there has never been such a “good” ceasefire and terrorist exchange rate ever- feel free to correct me. I guess my point with this was that the Rebbes influence is definitely alive and well today, as will continue to be until we finish this golus forever.

Gutte voch from my locality! I hope you’ll forgive my untimely responses, as this convo keeps on going, I’ve decided to drop in more occasionally…

Hope I don’t miss out anyone. Starting with YB, as I said I was born after, but just by seeing Lubavitch today, I think you have your answer. How many Lubavitchers on this very site have clutched their head in their hands, and called me an “embarrassment” etc. because I’m openly sharing what I’ve learned from the Rebbes sichos, even though Chas Veshalom they would never call the Rebbe this way, and even call me a hater for suggesting so… how many have denied everything to do with the Rebbe being Moshiach, even in publications, when it’s literally in the print of the sichos?

I think the answer is quite simple. The Rebbe was so down to earth, and “normal”. Just look at his shluchim. Not every shliach is the top 10% of Lubavitch, yet the Rebbe empowered them to share what they have. Yet, together with the normalcy, the Rebbe was definitely revolutionary. And it seems some people have a hard time living with both, so you have this kind of stuff going on…

And yea, Chassidim will go and find their own proofs to support what the Rebbe said. I think the most telling thing is that in at least one of the Rebbes sichos that I am aware of, he said the Frierdiker Rebbe could still be Moshiach, because he could have techias hameisim with the first wave. So this actually isn’t something new.

As to why it was “impossible” to end up this way- a) partly because there are sources also from the Rebbe about this generation going straight into chaim nitzchiim- So that does pose a seeming contradiction to Gimmel Tammuz- which is why the entire lubavitch refer to Gimmel Tammuz as such, and also why very few will say zia.

But the main answer is that they were having bitachon that things wouldn’t end up this way.

On that note: I’ll add in the next post a part b, very telling.

“And I know for a fact that what the Lubavicher rebbe advocated was that they learn only gemoro that is directly relevant to halochos that apply to women, not other stuff. (Note: I, and I’m sure many others on this thread, are against even that.)”

Source for your fact?

YB I do know about the major flip flop because I grew up in the wake of it. I don’t think you understand the nuance within Chabads position which are all based on the Rebbes sichos and sources: We hold that the best way is when the Nassi of the current dor who merits geula, is the final Moshiach- as his generation was the one who earned it. This is not the same as the classic Moshiach min hameisim, and obviously- clearly alive physically would be the most straightforward, ie be option a. Nobody was looking for an option b, pre Gimmel Tammuz, although the Rebbe alluded to it.

Arso: thanks for quoting it, although I seem to remember the Rashi as being quite short. In either case, it still says dugmaso- which is the same idea- an example. In that generation, the example of Moshiach min hachaim was Rebbi and min hameisim- Daniel. I don’t understand why you understand that Rebbi was only that generation but not subsequently, yet you don’t apply the same logic to Daniel. Just to flesh it out