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@sechel hayashar
Interesting about the maamar. I got my answer but I should look this up over Shabbos.
so you have no problem with the Rebbe saying in Basi lgani that the Frierdiker Rebbe will be moshiach, but you have a problem with the Rebbe saying that Rebbe will be moshiach? Especially as you know I’m the nuns when the Rebbe said Nossi doreinu would be Moshiach, he said the author of likutei sichos, and that was not the Frierdiker Rebbe, so I don’t get why you even think that’s an answer as to do you selectively learn what for with your comfortable beliefs?
“if you look it up you’ll see what I’m saying, even a woman can understand it:)”
Ummm… This would make me suspect your credentials as a bonafide lubavitcher much more than your understandings of the sichos… But thanks for the vote of confidence I suppose.
As far as the ikkar-agreed I’ve mentioned that many times.
As far as the non joke- if the source is the Alter Rebbe then youre right it’s inappropriate to call it a joke. Didn’t know where it was from
@gaon no I’m sure there was much much more to it but there’s books to read and I’m not supposed to write one in one post. My point in bringing up that incident was to show that even though the Gra sincerely meant well, he accepted misinformation. And if he only would have agreed to meet the Alter Rebbe instead of running away, the whole conflict would have been avoided. (I watched a video of his descendent testifying to the above. That the Gra saw the Alter Rebbe through the keyhole of his door in Vilna, and realized there was so much kedusha there that he would have become a chossid, so instead he ran away, jumped out a window or something and the meeting never happened: ()
@yiddishekop the first chassidim were definitely not am haaratzim. If you’d like to know where to read the history I’ll be happy to direct you.
As far as the peyes afaik, it’s because according the the kabbala of the Arizal, they should be short. Don’t know why everyone else wears them long, would love to know if anyone does know, please lmk@gaon. I looked it up. Yeah I know the difference between speech and breath-that wasn’t my question. My question was: I know the experience of the nivra part of my neshama because when I feel love towards Hashem, I feel myself as a separate entity loving Hashem. My question was if my essence is one with Hashem, Borei, how do I get in touch with that party of myself?
“So in summary…”
Great summary
“1) You’re estimating an overwhelming majority of Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is Moshiach (regardless of what terms you use to call anyone.)”
Yes, or they think they haven’t yet seen or heard of anyone else who could take him over, so he remains the best candidate.
2) “Even non-meshichists believe the Rebbe is Moshiach, but the only difference they have with meshichists is that the non-meshichists don’t think non-Lubavitchers should be told to the truth that the Rebbe is Moshiach whereas the meshichists want to make sure even non-Lubavitchers are told this fact.”
It’s not about hiding the truth. Ask any lubavitcher and if they sense you are sincere they will be happy to discuss their beliefs with you. They just don’t go running around spreading them uncalled for.
“3) Some (but not all) non-meshichists don’t believe the Rebbe is Moshiach.”
Yeah as seen courtesy of SH
“4) Nowadays there is little real ideological differences of view between meshichists and non meshichists. It’s mostly a difference in tactics of spreading the message.”
Well I don’t subscribe to many of SHs views so no not really
“Follow-up question:
What’s the deal with “Yechi…”? Who says it, who doesn’t, and what do Lubavitchers think of the Yechi issue.”
Well definitely only Meshichistim say it. Even within Meshichistim there are many who have stopped saying it because it’s become politicized by the more extreme bochurim who take over 770 and use it as their excuse to commit all kinds of narishkeit. Some will only say it within a Lubavitch community that says Yechi, and Israeli shluchim will tend to say it within their communities as well…
“Just wanted to sincerely ask as someone who knows a lot about chabad and has spent unfortunately too much time in crown heights, why is it ok to stop in middle of davening kabbalas shabbos to Hashem, in the middle of lecha Dodi, to start jumping up and down fervently and sing yechi adoneinu for TEN minutes at the top of your lungs towards the Rebbes chair in 770!”
Firstly it’s not in the middle, it’s afterwards until tzeis:) let’s be accurate here.
“Quite honestly would you do that if you truly saw the Rebbe in front of you? Do you think he would wave you on?”
Well quite honestly, the frenzy of Yechi was really after the stroke and yes the Rebbe did wave them on…
Would I personally? No but I’m in a different generation and once Moshiach comes there won’t be a need so it’s really irrelevant. The chassidim started the whole Yechi singing for long periods of time when the Rebbe had the stole because they thought maybe this would break through this heelem vhester and then the Rebbe could be revealed as Moshiach once and for all. Unfortunately, they really missed the whole point of famous koach Nissan sicha, where the Rebbe was so upset… But that’s for another time. But it seems that’s why gimmel tammuz happened. Anyhow…
“I don’t care that it’s meschichist tzfatim, this goes over the line and it’s happening in front of your eyes.”
Yeah I use the extra time to say my chitas or catch up to the minyan. Seriously, do you want me to tell at them from the ladies section?? And anyhow they don’t listen to anyone
“The Rebbe at one point even scolded people looking at him during davening and was very emotional about it.”
What does this have to do with singing Yechi in between parts of davening?
“And you dare to pull this off in middle of davening!”
Most of us roll our eyes the first time, but then we get used to it and learn a sicha or something. Anyhow these are the bochurim who get violent for the most part so I wouldn’t advise you to yell at them. That’s what the court case is all about apparently, stuff like that
“Emunah is NOT an emotion. That would validate every belief system out there. Emunah is rooted in absolute knowledge. Much as the uman (aleph – mem – nun) KNOWS his profession, so too the one with emunah (its root being, once again, aleph – mem – nun) is one with complete KNOWLEDGE, NOT FAITH-based and certainly not emotion-based belief, of HaShem’s existence”
Actually, emuna is based in the heart, not the mind, so that makes it an emotion. And that’s why women are stronger with emuna, because emotion is a woman’s strength. There are emotions that are irrational, below logic. And emotions that are suprarational- above logic. Emuna is the latter. And to prove it, that’s why yedias hadhem and emunas Hashem are counted as two separate mitzvos. Yedias Hashem- you need to lea re n as much as you can understand about Hashem and as much as makes sense. Emunas Hashem- you need to believe in whatever is too lofty for you to understand.
That’s why no one says I believe the is a sun-because you know it, so you don’t have to believe it.
Arguably, the way to properly fulfill these two mitzvos, is by learning chassidus which teaches all about Hashem in an understandable fashion and teaches you what there is about Hashem that is above our understanding.
“Is there a way to join this elite/chosen group? If so
how?”I don’t like your choice of words as I don’t think like that but I understand why you use them. We use the terms front lines, because every group in klal Yisrael is needed and adds as discussed. If you are being serious, then just know that when Moshiach comes he will thank every You for their part in bringing him ie making the world a G-dly place.
If you’d like to join the front lines I’d suggest to do whatever you can to help and be mekarev your fellow Jews, such as inviting not yet frum Yidden over for Shabbos, there are loads of things that anyone can do in that direction it’s just a mindset- help as many Yidden as you can do as many mitzvos as possible.
Work on yourself but don’t wait till you’re perfect before you help others. “If you know an aleph, teach an aleph”
Sulearn as much as you can about the geula and what you can do to bring it. I highly suggest the 2sefarim set of shaarei geula-hoemuna vhatzifia, and shaarei geula-hoemuna ymos haMoshiach. The more you know the more motivated you will be.
Learn chassidus so that you will be in touch with what your neshama is and who you really are, so that you don’t have an identity crisis when Moshiach comes, and you will enjoy the process so much more, and you will be able to identify all the giluim that you were just learning about till then, ie you will know what you are experiencing.
@daasyochid here it seems you missed the point. Did you get the term tzaddik? And besides many many gedolei yisrael visited the Rebbe. But it seems to me you are just lacking an awareness of who the Rebbe is. That is definitely fixable but that’s up to you.
@Joseph
“As a self-described “avowed non-mesichist” who nevertheless you say you believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach and you believe that “zt’l” should not be said when mentioning the Rebbe (for the reason that the earlier explained), how do you see yourself being different than the meshichists who you avowedly are not one of?”I do not recall describing myself as a self annoyed non Meshichist. In fact, I like most girls, really don’t care because it’s not the main point anyway. The point is to bring Moshiach. And this is what the Rebbe emphasized as well, although husband does remind me that I should lean more to the Meshichist side, because the Rebbe wouldn’t hint all this for nothing. At the end of the day it’s a matter of the heart. I’m happy to understand all sides, I find it quite interesting and as long as a shita makes sense, I’m happy to follow. Which is the good side of noshim daaton Kalos, I don’t have to be stuck to any one side.
“Do you find it objectionable for others to refer to the “Rebbe zt’l” or is that only something you choose not to utter?”
I choose not to pass judgement on anyone. As a saying goes the last time Moshe Rabbeinu was hidden for just a day, chet haegel happened. It is really tough, and I’m certainly not going to pass judgement on anything less than an aveira or lack of chassidishkeit.
“If so, are you trying to say that the only real difference between non-mesichists such as yourself and meshichists is which side of the 770 property dispute you believe is right — as both sides believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?”
The above should clarify. Those people fighting know that sholom jus most important, unfortunately they got sucked on by their yetzer Hara. Hope it resolves itself soon
“Is saying “Yechi” a dispute between the meshichists and non-meshichists?”
Yes although among the girls it’s not a topic that w discuss much at all, amongst the boys probably more
“And I think the first one to claim there other legitimate leaders of Benei Yisroel at the time of Moshe Rabbeinu, was none other than Korach”
Not that there are other legitimate leaders, no one denies that the Shvatim or Aharon were leaders. Korachs claim was that there can be more than one Moshe Rabbeinu per generation, or that there is no need for one at all and everyone can be equal. Yes this is a very important point.
@slominer
“How do meshichists and non-meshichists get along with each other religiously/hashkaficly?”As said, nowadays, mostly fine. They might debate each other on the way they understand the Rebbe’s sichos but that’s pretty much the extent of the disagreement for the younger generation at least. The older generation tend to have stronger opinions one way or another.
@uncleben thanks for clarifying that
“Or should I say chabadSHLIACH since it’s quite obvious you are getting information from elsewhere, or rather your husband took over for you completely. You almost had us fooled as how much more knowledgeable in Torah you lubavitch woman are than the rest of us, but that’s not my point.”
I set aside the times I feed my baby to reply to this forum. I will take your words as a compliment but no I haven’t yet asked anyone for any sources. I told you I try to learn a sicha or maamar a few times a week and there are tremendous amounts knowledge from all parts of Torah contained within. I wouldn’t say the typical lubavitcher shlucha could remember this all offhand, but I am on the academic side BH. And no my husband isn’t much of an academic so he doesn’t have much patience to read this all, least if all reply for me. Besides he teaches all day. My time is up for now but will continue responding it at my next opportunity.
@ubiquitin no of course Hashem Hashem kel rachum is addressed to Hashem. They were begging Hashem to make the Rebbe better. The song is still popular because it expresses the depths of the connection between the chossid and Rebbe and touches us in a deep way.
@ubiquitin I can’t have a serious in depth discussion with you if you are too impatient to read up on the background concepts because it’s too boring for you. If you just want aquick pat answer well then this song was written when the Rebbe was sick, and everyone was davening he should recover. As to the other answer, it’s a long one and involves explaining a concept which frankly would bore you as you write. So I don’t see a reason to write it up.
“Off topic: I know there are/were times that the school took the children outside to wait for moshiach.”
I’ve never experienced that, and the only place I can see that happening is a preschool but ok.
“Don’t you believe in Eliyahu Hanavi coming three days before Moshiach?”
I actually taught a class on that based on a sicha where the Rebbe brings in all the relevant sources. Your welcome to look it up yourself in the Seder shaarei geula- hoemuna vhatzifia, under the section on eliyahu hanavi. It’s on Hebrew books.org.
But basically, no he doesn’t have to come beforehand. As one proof you’ve probably heard of: someone who says they won’t drink wine, ie become a nazir the day Moshiach comes, is never allowed to drink wine because Moshiach can come any day. This is Halacha. Also one of the 13 ikkarim is to await Moshiach s coming every day, and if eliyahu hanavi had to come three days before, that would mean that we shouldn’t await him every day…
“One hundred and sixty nine posts later, you still have not answered what is the disagreement between the Lubavitcher “meshichists” and the Lubavitcher non-meshichists. (And what percentage of Lubavitchers are meshichists and what percent non-meshichists, in your best guess.)”
Ah an important point. Fine. So I think if you’ve been following much of the discussion, especially between me and sechel hayashar, you’ll see it’s very nuanced, and these terms can mean something else to everyone, especially my generation which never saw the Rebbe. And as it gets more nuanced, and we study more of what the Rebbe said, the differences become much more lessened until you can have today, someone like me can marry someone with the views of sechel hayashar, because we both follow the Rebbe and it’s teachings and a way of reading Rambam isn’t gonna make or break a marriage.
Whereas 20 years ago, feelings were running steering, shuls split over this, communities split over this because they were still in shock and reacting strongly to gimmel tammuz.
In general, meshichist means someone who thinks the Rebbe is Moshiach, and non meshichists means the ones who don’t.
Alternatively, meshichists are the ones who think they need to convince everyone that the Rebbe is Moshiach, and non meshichists think this is something applicable just to lubavitchers and there’s no reason to yell this loud and proud, especially without context as this is not bofen hamiskabel.
So it’s kind of tough to define to an exact number because what people can mean can be very different.
Then there’s some people like mother of shluchim was saying, who are thugs. Well there’s very harsh, another way to term them is irresponsible teens who just go after excitement, kind of like what people were talking about lots of the peleg bachurim.
Everything in discussing doesn’t apply to those people because I’m talking about a legitimate path in avodas Hashem, and obviously, immature teens who don’t learn and just create trouble, don’t qualify to me. And what I was saying about not minding my son going a bit extreme as a teen, this is definitely not what I meant. Violence is never ok, I meant taking his learning a bit over the top, like Oirois dTohu without the keilim of tikkun kind of thing.
So according to definition a) I’d think many Lubavitchers subscribes to the Meshichist description besides maybe two yeshivos- so let’s say 50% or up.
10% average- not meshichist
40% don’t really care either way. This is all the young people, and based on my experience, so it’s an opinion and I can be corrected.According to the second definition:
Meshichists: 20-40% -ie almost all lubavitcher Israelis, and everyone else with an exception here and there, non Meshichist.
“No, I didn’t know that, and I wonder whether anybody else outside of lubavitch does. In fact, I wonder whether R Baruch Ber himself knew of it.”
I would be happy to bring proof but the cynicism here dissuades me…
“I was once shown in one of the classic chassidishe seforim that our job is to want to be true ovdei Hashem and NOT just to constantly ask for moshiach. I’ll try to find the source but as it definitely wasn’t in “Chassidus”, i.e. Lubavitch sources, its probably not worth anything anyway.”
No one said instead, we said as a focus and aderabe, if you really want Moshiach, you will increase your Torah and Mitzvos, not slack off. There’s a famous story, foel free to fill in on the details but the Alter Rebbe once answered some questioners on why Moshiach was not there yet, “The Moshiach everyone is asking for isn’t Moshiach. And the real Moshiach, no one wants.” Meaning, Moshiach shouldn’t be only an answer to personal or general tragedy. We should want Moshiach for the right reasons, to serve Hashem in the best possible manner as DY said, not as something to remember only when there is a tzarah.
“And is anyone going to refer me to the source of nossi hador = moshiach/Moshe Rabbeinu hador… or is there perhaps no such non-Lubavitch source?”
Answered above.
As an aside to an above question, there is a joke within Lubavitch that Moshiach must be a Litvak, because otherwise not all of klal Yisrael will accept him, whereas lubavitchers will be happy to accept whoever it is…
“Sorry but I still can’t find where it says Nasi hador hu hamoshiach shebedor or anything like it. Can someone please give me an EXACT source?”
Here is the link. If it is not allowed, then just Google the above words in Hebrew and click on the chabadapedia page that comes up for a full list of sources and definitions.
http://chabadpedia.co.il/index.php/נשיא_הדור
Also “from what I’ve read so far the Lubavitch rebbes are the Moshe Rabbeinus of the dor because that’s what they said. Did I miss something here?”
Not to my knowledge, meaning I don’t know of another source that supports that, you obviously wouldn’t find it in gemara as it wasn’t applicable then, but I think any rational person who is looking for emes will count the Lubavitcher Rebbe as a reliable source.
“And another thing: the Tikkunei Zohar (112a) says that the ispashtuso of Moshe is in each generation “in each tzaddik and chochom who learn Torah up to [the number] 600,000”. So why does ChabadShlucha say there is only one person in each generation?”
Hmm I was not aware of that thanks for sharing! I will look into that and be happy to be corrected. I’ll lyk iyh.
@WTP I don’t think this is deliberate, but I think you’re taking what I said the wrong way. So let me explain again. I think I was the one who pointed out there were many other legitimate leaders of BY at the time of Moshe Rabbeinu and they all had their own drachim that were legitimate paths to serve Hashem. There still was a Moshe Rabbeinu though. Also with the Rebbe- many other leaders of klal Yisrael from all walks of life came to consult with and visit the Rebbe, but they all led their flocks in their own ways, and that’s how it’s meant to be. No one said everyone is meant to be Lubavitch, there are meant to be many complementary paths to Hashem and each one supports the rest. For example, Chabad primarily focuses on outreach, while Satmar focuses on bikur cholim and chesed within the frum world. Both add, both are important and both are necessary. As stated earlier klal Yisrael is like a body, all parts need to function differently to create a healthy whole. If even the feet don’t work, the whole body, including the head, is missing out. The Rebbe once said that it’s a good thing Satmar protests Zionism so we don’t need to take that on. They do that it’s their job. Should everyone learn chassidus? Yes, as that mindset is the mindset of geula. Should everyone become a lubavitcher shliach? No we need diversity to be a healthy whole.
Now something I realized I haven’t been clear. I don’t think the 7 generation correlation was meant to say that were the only ones drawing down the shechina as that’s quite ridiculous an clearly wrong. Every time any he does a Mitzvah, he brings down more Elokus to the world. The 7 generation thing was meant to answer why us? Why are we the ones tasked to bring Moshiach? Why not a better earlier generation? We’re not even worthy and maybe not even interested… So the Rebbe brought the 7gen thing to answer that just as Moshe Rabbeinu was the one to bring down the shechina, even though the process began with Avrahom avinu, and Moshe Rabbeinu wasn’t a greater tzaddik than Avrahom avinu, he just merited this zechus because he was seventh. Same with us. We’re not amazing that we have this mission, aderabe many other generations were much better. We just merit this because we’re seventh.
So chizkiyahu was the Moshiach shebador until it failed. Don’t get what the problem is.
“Tomorrow Mashiach comes. And he is Litvish. Or Sefardi. Or a Gerrer Chassid, etc. Will you accept him?”
Of course! As long as he comes already! That’s what I’m saying this whole discussion is a side point the main thing, and this every Lubavitcher should agree on, is to bring Moshiach!!
Anyway like I said if you don’t get who the Rebbe is and who his shluchim are, nothing makes sense. Here is a story someone just shared today, I’ve heard it before, apparently it was retold at the kinus this year, just so you get an idea…
I will share a very cute story that Rabbi Levi Garelik said at the Torah and Tea. His father was having terrible pain in his feet. He was going into New York so Mrs Garelik told him to ask the Rebbe for a brocha. He said he will not bother the Rebbe about it. Mrs Garelik wrote in that when her husband comes in for yechidus the Rebbe should please give her husband advice regarding the pain in his feet. At the end of Rabbi Gorelicks yechidus the Rebbe told him, “Regarding the pain in your feet, you should see Dr. Seligson.” Rabbi Gorelick went to see the doctor who told him that his pain was caused because he gained to much weight and it was simply too heavy for his feet to hold up. He advised him to stop eating bread during the week and only eat bread on Shabbos. For three weeks he did this and he lost his excess weight and the pain in his feet went away. The miracle was that he had never eaten bread during the week to begin with! There was no pas Yisroel bread then in Milan and his wife only made challah for shabbos. But the Rebbe told him to see Dr Seligson and the doc told him to stop eating bread during the week. Instead of telling him “I don’t think that’s gonna help.” He said ok and the miracle occurred!
At the same time, I should say the guy who was out to insult Lubavitch actually gave a big compliment ironically. The worst thing he could find was someone trying to do a Mitzvah in the wrong time. Halevai… We’re for the most part normal people, not tzaddikim not even beinonim. Just hopefully wanna be beinonim. Hopefully we can aspire to reach the expectation that the guy who is out to get Lubavitch expects of us… We should be only involved with positive things. Lchaim!
@sechelhayashar since you came out and said that you flat out don’t think the Rebbe can be Moshiach I’m interested in hearing if you can truly resolve that in light of dor shvii=the generation of bringing Moshiach and the Rebbe being the Nossi Hador? Or do you simply black out the sichos in your mind that may make you feel uncomfortable? I get your concerns over the Rambam- for a real understanding you should get into it with Rabbi Mann, I think you’d have an awesome learning discussion, but how would you resolve what the Rebbe said? Impress like I said, you may be living in denial? I’m actually quite curious
As far as the neherag one- yeah that is quite famous, been around so long that I think we were taught that one by a woman teacher- the same one who pointed out the dor shvii conundrum
As far as my question- I just wanted to understand- if the source of the body is higher than the neshama and the body will give the neshama it’s chayus when Moshiach comes, instead of the other way around like now, how exactly does that work? Like how is it higher? The neshama seems higher in every way… That was one question
The other was that on the one hand the neshama is a nivra, but we learn that at it’s core, it’s one with Hashem. I wanted to understand how we experience that…
@daasyochid one thing I should clarify is that if a lubavitcher tells you straight out that he doesn’t think the Rebbe is Moshiach you can believe him. He won’t lie to you-an aveira, because he thinks it’s not bofen hamiskabel. So there is no valid reason to not believe our friend sechel hayashar, who seems quite dismayed that I would even discuss such sensitive subjects and has flat out stated he does not think the Rebbe can be Moshiach.
@sdaasyochid we are actually quite in agreement if you do Torah and Mitzvos to fulfill Ratzon Hashem. Because the whole reason the chachamim yearned for Moshiach was not for the pastries growing from the ground or any other gashmius benefit. Their sole reason was to be rid of shibud malchios and this be free to live a full Torah lifestyle. Do you know out of all 248 mitzvos asei, men can only fulfill 64 and women 48 if I remember the numbers correctly? Many many mitzvos can only be fulfilled once we have a Jewish King- Moshiach, a beis hamikdash, and love in eretz Yisrael under this halachic monarchy.
Also as long as we are in golus Hashem is feeling tzaar as He wants his children back at His table, and wants to be able to give us all good. He hates seeing His children suffer, just like any parent, that is such a painful thing kivyachol.
So if you really are all into fulfilling Ratzon Hashem the logical outcome of that would be to daven and do everything you can to bring Moshiach because that is what Hashem Himself wants!
@sechelhayashar
I don’t think Daas yochid deserves to be attacked. I don’t know why you’re so surprised she doesn’t have Moshiach on on her mind whenever she does a Mitzvah. If you’re not a lubavitcher you probably don’t study inyonei moshiach ugeula, and then it seems like some fairy candyland that’s obviously not gonna be the focus of your life even though you believe in it.About misnagdim in general: the Frierdiker Rebbe said that there is no such thing as real misnagdim anymore. There was-once upon a time, misnagdim who honestly thought that Chassidus-and here I mean all, not just Lubavitch- was a danger to yiddishkeit and fought tooth and nail against them out of a real sense of yiras shomayim. Like the holy Gra for example.
The gra was fed cnn style news about the Alter Rebbe: he was told how the head of the “Katt” was seen eating on Tisha bav with his chassidim with a female on his lap. His informers conveniently forgot to mention that Tisha bav the year of the incident had fallen out on Shabbos, so it was nidche, and the female was his 3 year old granddaughter…
But any old legitimate suspicions against chassidus has been debunked over a century ago. So now there are no real misnagdim, and if someone has an axe to grind against Lubavitch and refuses to have any serious discussion, it’s just a poor fellow with some middos that can use allot of work.
Like that fellow who boasted how he tries to insult or embarrass every Lubavitcher her comes in contact with by telling him his daughter once saw a Lubavitcher putting on Tefillin close to shkiah… Like I don’t even know what to say. At least this Lubavitcher was trying to accomplish a positive thing, albeit in the wrong time. But relishing a chance to insult a fellow Jew is not any kind of Mitzvah, in fact it’s quite the opposite. And as a person who has an ego, I try not to flaunt my flaws in public, much less boast about them so I can’t even understand this guy. The best response to these people is silence, and don’t honor them with the title misnagdim because they can’t be called that if that have no clue what they are against and haven’t ever looked into it. Their unfortunate middos have nothing to do with yiras shomayim.
But someone like Daas yochid i completely understand and I don’t think she is an unfortunate fellow at all. She strikes me as quite smart with a quick grasp of the nuances at play here. She’s just checking what we’re actually saying. A normal fellow doesn’t hint to be a Navi, much less Moshiach (that’s why I first explained what a tzaddik is, no a tzaddik is not”normal”), so she’s just checking he also didn’t say other things like eat on yk CVS. Which, once you get what a tzaddik is you’d realize that wouldn’t happen because a tzaddik would never contravene Torah.
And in general, when people feel attacked they’re less likely to really be open to anything you say vdal.
And another really important thing we should all agree on I’d the importance of learning inyonei moshiach uGeula on a constant basis. Otherwise, how will we be excited to bring Moshiach and wrap our whole lives around this if we don’t even know what we’re working for? And on a continual basis to keep the chayus going. The Rebbe specifically asked us for this. Anyhow there is plenty to agree on in this vein… Lchaim.
But regardless of anyone’s personal views in light of the gimmel tammuz difficulties, this I think we can all agree on: the main thing is to do everything everything everything we can do to bring Moshiach! And no matter who the Lubavitcher is, everyone will agree that this whole is the Rebbe gonna be Moshiach question is all really a side point and the definite main emphasis should be to bring Moshiach with Oirois dTohu bkeilim dtikkun. So in the vein of the Rebbe we need to constantly ask ourselves what are we doing to bring Moshiach here? You’re going in mivtzoim, great and as the Rebbe would say, keep adding! As for me I’m trying to raise chassidim of the Rebbe and run several programs that add to making this world Dirah Noeh for Hashem. And I keep asking myself and looking out to do more. This we can agree on sechel hayashar, correct?
@ sechel hayashar actually it reveals more about who I married…
Anyhow I don’t see why anyone has to hate anyone. We are having a very nice learned discussion here and not hating each other with the exception of like half a percent that you’ll find anywhere. As long as it’s based on Torah, there is nothing to hate we can just have different opinions and that’s just fine. It’s even a Torah value- Shivim panim lTorah, ain deioseihem shavos… So let’s just keep everything in the spirit of Ahavas Yisrael. I think that said more than anything else.
Rabbi Mann!!! Of Toronto! Now this Rabbi Mann is a real chossid, yorei shomayim and lamdan, possibly even a beinoni. Honestly. Hes a Yerushalmi lubavitcher and brilliant brilliant. Don’t know if this means anything but he was the only one able to answer certain questions I had in reconciling different concepts in chassidus and he blew me away with his ability to explain complicated concepts in a very uncomplicated way. That’s why my first conviction was that it must be a sicha- anything he says is heavily sourced.
An yeah I shouldn’t have copped out. I got a kick out of using the daaton Kalos line though:) and also it really is harder for me to defend a position based on nitty gritty and not a deep understanding so it is true. So it got me like a lightning bolt that I remembered who it was and then I saw your last post that it couldn’t have possibly been anyone other than a woman or bachur. Thought that was hilarious. But yeah there you have it. And btw who would you think would teach me the nitty gritty if not a man lol?
@ sechel hayashar ha I love this! Such hp! I’m in a different time zone, so trying to fall asleep and all of a sudden it hits me where those pshatim in Rambam are from! I learned it as part of the inyonei geula uMoshiach class in high school with guess who?
Are we all clear? Any further questions?
@avik going through the posts now I see why I didn’t address your question, because it looks like it’s meant lhachis, not a serious question at all. I’m sure if you’ve read this thread, you’d have your answer. I’m out to answer legitimate questions not people looking for a fight. Hope this clarifies
@Joseph actually this may come as a surprise but if the title shlucha did not come from the Rebbe himself, it was definitely Rebbe inspired. The Rebbe constantly told the young women of the couples he sent out that they shouldn’t only see themselves as the rabbis wife, but as a full partner to their husband’s shlichus. In fact, the Rebbe said that the women need to do their own unique shlichus with the women just like it was with Avrahom avinu and Sara Imeinu- Avrahom migayer es hoanashim vSara mgayeres es hanoshim. Equal partners and equal shluchim. The Rebbe advocated putting family and children first, but as much as possible to reach out with shlichus activities to other women and start their own programs.
If you’d like to hear more on this, you’re welcome to start a feminism/yiddishkeit/Rebbe thread:):)
2) actually the Rebbe started the lag baomer parades to encourage Jewish pride in the 1950s I think, because people where living in a ghetto mentality where they were ashamed to be seen in the world looking Jewish…
@WTP glad you get it and really all of this is predicated on you knowing about the Rebbe, learning a bit about who he is and represents. And maybe watching some of the my encounters with all types of Yidden talking about how the Rebbe inspired an affected them. Do you know R Baruch Ber cried when the Rebbe gently refused his offer to become his top talmid and the next leading gadol in the Litvishe world? So yeah if it was a regular person like you it me, I would say na I can’t believe that, there’s some personal agenda at hand. But knowing the Rebbe, and I know the Rebbe even though I was born three months before gimmel tammuz, I got my brachos to get married, go on shlichus etc. It’s a neshama connection. So knowing the Rebbe it makes sense. Otherwise, nothing makes sense
@whoever is dictating how to understand the Rambam: look this isn’t my expertise, and as nashim daaton Kalos, I think I’ll hand over this nitty gritty stuff to the chabad males out there:) and I’m sure there are men that can explain this stuff- just they may be found in the nearest Chabad yeshiva near you (excluding Detroit and Chicago which are known as non meshichist to the fullest degree.) And they probably won’t be on this CR forum. Not trying to cop out- my strength as a woman is binah, not this nitty gritty compare and contrast on details that done make a major difference to my life:)
Of course if you really can’t do that and it really really bothers you, lmk and I’ll do my best to call one of these amazing rabbis and get back to you:)
1. You actually didn’t answer the second part of my first question, about why the line of chabad davka were the conduits to bring down the shechiina but not other greats, but just nitpicked with me using the word avos not literally to mean all 7 of our great ancestors, and not just the 3 actual Avos. If I get what you are inferring though from your other answers, the chabad zaddik is in a class of his own, he is the only Moshe in the generation, everyone else is a lower madreiga, just as zekeinim were lower than Moshe, including other great rebbeim from other lineages, even those who lived in times when tzaddikim were more abundant than they are now, as you say. If this is in fact what you are saying, it sheds light on a lot of the issues raised in the previous (closed) thread.
Look WTP I’m with you. I also thought about that how it seems unfair that it’s all Lubavitch who were the Moshe Rabbeinu. If it was more spread out, I would be very happy.
But thinking about it now, referring back to the visit the Baal Shem Tov made to Moshiachs heichal in shomayim, in tof kuf zayin, was that fair? All Yidden serve Hashem, why should chassidus be singled out as the wellsprings through which being spread will bring Moshiach. The Gra was an extremely holy Gaon. How come it’s not his teachings?
But if you think about it, it’s the same question that comes up across the board: why are the Jewish people the chosen people? Especially as some of them are real rotten? Why are some Yidden Kohanim and get special privileges?
An it’s the same answer. No we’re not better than anyone else. But this is the path that Hashem has chosen for all Yidden to serve Him with- through learning chassidus and becoming one with our neshama, our fellow Jews and our creator, and revealing the G-dly depths within every physical thing. For Hashem did not create all the worlds for the sake of spirituality, but rather so that this physical world, which seems the farthest anyone can get from Him, should discover Him within their realm. This understanding and application is the treasure chassidus gives us. And since this is the point of creation, to quote the medrash famous within Lubavitch: “Nisave Hkbh liyos Lo Yisbarech dira Btachtonim.” The point is this world, not olam haba. Because otherwise as explained in Tanya chapter 37 I believe, it would have been better for all the higher worlds not to have been created. For if the point is spirituality, what can be more spiritual than being One with Hashem?
So no, Chabad tzaddikim are not better than any other tzaddik just as Moshe Rabbeinu wasn’t greater than Aharon his brother. He was just the one picked by Hashem to lead the Yidden with his path. And so too, Hashem sent down to this world an entirely new neshama from the era of Moshiachs times that had never come before to this world in any other gilgul, to reveal the treasures of pnimiyus haTorah. This special soul was embodied by the Alter Rebbe, the founder of Chassidus Chabad.
So if chassidus is the path through which to bring Moshiach, it logically follows that the successive Rebbeim who followed that path would be to Moshe shebidoram.
2. We say “Moshe kibel Torah M’Sinai., Umesora l’Yehosua, VYehoshua L’Zekeinim ,etc.” The idea that the leadership on one person was unique to the dor that received the Torah, and then next, as Yehoshua was an extension of Moshe. But after that, it was always a group of Rabbanim/chachamim/Neviim who channeled Torah to the people. There was not one great leader. How do you reconcile this with the Nasi/Moshe B’Doro concept?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but there was always an Av beis din, or Nassi or similar office which played the role of Moshe Rabbeinu.
3. You state that chabadnikim could not choose a new Rebbe because they could not find a good enough tzaddik. But based on what you said, all they need is a beinoni, who strives and hates sin, and then Hashem will gift him with the traits of being a tzaddik so that he can lead the flock. Was there no one like this in all of chabad, all striving in Avodas Hashem along the systematic understandable path that only chabad provides?
Firstly I hope you understand what a beinoni is. Most people try to have beinoni moments as explained in perek yud daled of Tanya. Someone who does one aveira in fifty years is a rasha vtov lo. There are hundreds of levels within rasha vtov lo, depending on how much of his yetzer overrides his nefesh elokis (when he gives in to it). So it is a very high level to be a beinoni to put it lightly. There are some suspected beinonim within Lubavitch afaik. Obviously the only one who would really know that is Hashem and maybe the person themselves.
But as said, the level of tzaddik is a gift given to those who have sees are really trying to not only be a beinoni but also copy tzaddik behaviors, such as truly despising bad. And as it is a gift He decides when to who and if He gives it.
And in the meantime, no we do not know of a tzaddik within Lubavitch right now.
“Is a Shlucha to a Shliach the same as a Rabba is to a Rabbi?”
Not at all. Afaik, a woman cannot be a Rabbi as it is against halacha, an definitely against mesorah. Why would you get that impression may I ask?
Of course. So why does such a high percentage of Chabad believe he is moshiach (with the prime disagreement being whether to be public about it – perhaps it’s not “Bkeilim dtikkun- in ways that are acceptable within this world”)?
@daasyochid you really get it.
I think if Chabad would place more of a focus on regular learning (the lack of which is lamented by many old time Lubavichers), they wouldn’t twist things to fit their emotional agenda
Fake news as they say nowadays.
Please use quotes or italics when quoting other posts. Thanks
@avrammd if you want to ask these kind of questions, it would be a good idea to see the Rambam in the original. It’s hilchos melachim prakim 11-12. Just to answer, it says Yilchom- as in present ongoing tense. Then if he finishes it, plus the other two conditions, then he is Moshiach vadai.
@5ish I’m trying to answer the questions in order, and I don’t recall skipping yours. Can you either repost, or wait until there are no more questions and I’ll scroll through all until I find yours?
@daasyochid m assuming you’re joking as Moshiach can’t be a woman
“Who told you that ‘וילחם מלחמת ה means sending out shluchim and being mekarev Yidden? Is that the pshat in the rambam? Please read the Rambam again, with an intellectually honest outlook, and you’ll see that the Rebbe wasn’t Chezkas Moshiach.”
If I’m not mistaken there may be a sicha on it, I definitely learned that somewhere but I don’t remember the exact source unfortunately, and I would think that it it is a sicha you would have come across it. Look, when you read it it reads wars, but notice the Rambam doesn’t use a lashon like milchamos haumos, milchemes got umagog or what have you, he specifically said milchemes Hashem, and as all mefarshim, geonim etc through the Taz and Bach wrote their peirushim with ruach hakodesh, I could definitely see how this could refer to a spiritual was for Hashem. Being that you’ve seen the Rebbe express this many times when explaining the exact words Rashi chose, I’m not sure why this would surprise you?
“FYI, I’m a regular Lubavitcher, I do Chitas and Rambam, and I go on Mivtzoim every Friday…”
Lol this cracked me up. I don’t have any doubts on your chassidishkeit, your understanding of a Rambam has nothing to do with your chassidishkeit so really I’m sort of honored you feel the need to excuse yourself, but no need at all!
“For the purposes of respectful interactions, it’s probably best to write out Chabad chassidus when interacting with Jews who are not Lubavitchers. If someone explained a non-Chabad idea to you and told you he was explaining Judaism to you, you’d probably be offended.”
@avrammd you’re quite right I’ll have that in mind in the future. Not intentional at all.
Is that the only reason the last Rebbe has no successor? Or did the Rebbe also indicate he’s Moshiach?
Yes Joseph you got my intent- ie that’s the other reason. As an aside I once asked a teacher in high school- why must the Rebbe still be there Nassi Hador and thus the Moshiach shebador? Maybe there’s a new Nassi Hador out there, not in the world of Lubavitch? She answered that by the first Maamar the Rebbe said that this is for shvii and our task is to bring Moshiach. Until we do that we’re still dor shvii with the Rebbe as our leader.
“So in nun aleph, nun beis, when this Moshiach excitement was going on, along with the hints, every chossid, from what I hear, expected the Rebbe to reveal himself as Moshiach and lead all Yidden to eretz Yisrael.”
What Moshiach excitement was going on then more than before? And why’d his Chasidim all suddenly about then expect him to announce that he’s Moshiach?
Because the Rebbe was saying Oirois dTohu kind of things like look Moshiach is already here, we just need to open up our eyes.
And much more things like that, week after week. I would quote more but since it’s not your typical statement, I won’t say things unless it’s exactly what he said. You’re welcome to look it up on Hebrew books.org under Sefer hasichos 5751 and 5752.
But as the Rebbe himself instructed it was always bkeilim dtikkun. The Rebbe would never stand up and yell some wild crazy sounding line. There was always a very logical context to his very revolutionary ideas- usually within the context of advar Torah on the parsha.
What about the Besht or the Maggid or the Baal HaTanya? Their influence is gone or less than the last Rebbe so they can all be referred to as having passed on, unlike the last Rebbe?
The next Rebbe carried on their legacy and they all carried and passed down the neshama of Moshe Rabbeinu. As the Rebbe once referred to the Previous Rebbe by saying, nishmaso bi.
@sechel hayashar ok I stand corrected on that. The exact phrase is Nassi Hador hu haMoshiach shebador, not Moshe Rabbeinu shebador hu haMoshiach shebador
And yes I was hoping that would come up in the follow up. The Rebbe strongly urged us to do everything possible to bring Moshiach but in case someone starts getting any ideas that are not in line with Torah, the Rebbe urged this be done – and this is famous within Chabad- as “Oirois dTohu bkeilim dtikkun.”
Oirois dTohu means the lights/energies of the worlds of Tohu which were spiritual worlds created before our world, but they crashed and shattered so to speak because the G-dly energies that animated then we’re way to strong. Like plugging an iPhone into an electricity generator. So Oirois dTohu means we need to work with extremely high energy and maybe even crazy ideas. But how?
Bkeilim dtikkun- in ways that are acceptable within this world.
I’ve tried to help achdus between Yidden in this thread with this phrase very much in mind
@avik there are four conditions to qualify as chezkas Moshiach as per the Rambam:
1) descended from beis Dovid (the Rebbe was)
2) well versed in Torah and toiling in mitzvos like Dovid his father
3) compels all Yisrael to go in the ways of Torah and strengthens it’s breaches
3) fights the wars of HashemThen we may with assurance, consider him Moshiach.
If he:
1) succeeds in all the above
2) builds the bhmk
3) does kibutz golios
Then he is indeed Moshiach and then he will get the entire world to serve Hashem together.The Rebbe definitely fulfilled the first four: he started the momentous baal teshuva movement as waged the wars of Hashem against assimilation the continuation of which is ongoing by his over 5000 shluchim. And all it takes to qualify is sincere effort, not complete success as that is the first of the conditions for Moshiach vadai
@Daasyochid No way!! That can only happen when the geula occurs. Right now we are still in golus very unfortunately. For further clarification see the Cato’s meanings of Moshiach explained in my third post,I think