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Great sechel. I can add tomorrow iyh stories and a bit more more as I want to check up some points before. If you’d like to check up yourself, the answers to these and many similar questions can be found on the stump the Rabbi site, where the rabbis answer questions that are from ffb Chabad people who ask all these questions at some point.
To summarise the points flow:
1) lubavitchers understand that sicha as the Rebbe intended with his other examples, as a tzadik being a revelation of Hashem in this world, like Moshe was able to say I referring to Hashem etc.
Other sources include nefesh Hachaim which says the same thing. Any other attempt to “read” into it is taking it out of context (like missionaries do), and done to drive an agenda which isn’t there.
2) we know it’s done but why is it OK to ask Rebbeim/tzaddikim for brachos as opposed to only Hashem?
Answer because the tzadik is a mimutza hamechaber so Hashem can answer you through the tzadik. And you can put your “best foot forward” by having your “head” ask for you.
“that wasn’t my claim. you have made several comments about how your concepts are too deep for most of us and have commented several times that it’s too hard to understand. Mostly because someone disagreed and you assumed it was a lack of comprehension.”
They are deep and delicate concepts, and my concern is that that in conveying them correctly. And yes from the some of the results i got, it seems I didn’t fully convey the concept correctly so I tried to add in more. Its my achrayus to try to convey properly as much as yours to try to understand what I say. I don’t see that as offensive.
” that we too have rebbeim and Torah giants and a mesorah and will also defend our Rebbeim and Torah so asking us to set aside what we know is right and wrong so that you can feel respected is not acceptable”
I did not see one Rebbe or Torah giant quoted. In any case I think I made it clear that it totally fine to discuss, but to say things like your Rebbe’s sicha is…. Cvs, is completely unacceptable. No one here should think they’re greater than the tens of gedolim who met and consulted with the Rebbe. I wouldn’t mind if he said something like, “I don’t understand how this quote of the Rebbe doesn’t contradict this halacha…” But for him to pasken on the Rebbe is not acceptable which is why I can’t continue answering his questions
“, it was claiming the Rebbe is the brain”
Ya that’s in Tanya perek beis, and the Zohar brings the part of all of us being the same neshama. Wasn’t sure which one you wanted the source for so I gave both. Tanya says “Roshei bnei Yisrael shebidoram” exact quote.
“As I said, you are asking for respect but not willing to acknowledge the disrespect to our own gedolim and talmidei chochomim. Please understand that.”
Don’t see where I disrespected any gadol please enlighten me.
“that is not special for lubavitch. that is how we all do things and how we all see the messages delivered by our gedolim and rabbeim. The problem is the Rebbe is not alive and could not have told you that. He is not here to be a personal messanger and give you advice. and THAT is what is in question.”
Actually one of the questions is how we can ask the Rebbe for anything, instead of only Hashem – see the title of this thread.
Joseph added that part, so I was starting to answer with first explaining about the concept of what a Rebbe is. I don’t know what is normal or not normal for you because things that I take for granted, some people here are railing about. If everything I said is so obvious why are people upset and what’s the question anyway? Every time I answer one, the question becomes something else.
I can continue answering if everything I said until now is clear, and people phrase things respectfully. Also, now I think I’m not understanding you properly and we’re miscommunicating. So I don’t know if I should continue if I’m confusing, or misunderstanding you and you misunderstanding me. I think the main concept I gave over, lmk if that’s all clear. If it is and we’re on the same page, I can continue.
“Please go back to your teachers and ask them to start with the very basics before jumping to Toras haNistar. That trajectory has messed up many people in much greater generations than ours.”
You’re 100% right in theory although it seems you don’t understand who or what we’re discussing here- I guess it makes sense you didn’t learn Chabad history in high school 🙂
Basically you’re right – its very dangerous to learn nistar on you’re own, without a proper teacher or explanation. Which is why I don’t get hope toi thinks he’s learning more pnimius HaTorah than me – with no Chassidus.
But that’s exactly what the Alter Rebbe was tasked with and why the Baal Shem Tov was so excited when he heard the Alter Rebbe’s neshama was coming down to this world – a neshama chadasha, not a gilgul. Alter Rebbe was given this special neshama and tasked with taking pnimius HaTorah and bringing it into intellect – chochma bina and Daas – Chabad, in a way that it is now understandable and accessible to every Jew.
And he did that with writing the Tanya, Torah Or and Likutei Torah revealing tremendous concepts that were never bought into this world before.
All the other Rebbeim’s Torah are based off of the Alter Rebbe’s maamarim or subsequent Rebbeim (except maybe some of the Rebbe’s) They all expounded on it, and brought it down more but the core ideas were revealed by the Alter Rebbe.
So yes it is very dangerous to open a Zohar on your own and chart your Avodas Hahem according to what you “understand” without a proper teacher.
But Chassidus takes the concepts and makes them accessible by explaining them using mashalim from our experience.
Now before someone says this is disrespectful to everyone else, everyone has what they offer. I think Belz did Kiruv in Europe during the haskala movement – before Chabad. But what you said here is exactly what Chabad is all about.
@syag I never said or implied I’m so smart and you’re all not.
What I did say is that compared to the Rebbe, we both have no understanding. As chassidim say, were the toenails, the Rebbe is the head.Or as reb Hillel Paritcher, famous chossid of the Alter Rebbe said, “compared to the Rebbe I understand like a goat. And I don’t mean that the difference between my understanding and the Rebbe’s understanding (of Hashem etc ed) is the same same difference as the understanding between a goat and me, but rather, me and the goat understand the same of what a Rebbe is.”
And like you said we are all frum yidden, so it shouldn’t be so difficult to expect respect for Torah as that should be a frum value. I wouldn’t have this discussion with someone not frum. I expect better from frum yidden. As you should expect respect from me for your gedolim.
About the brain reference, that’s Tanya perek beis. Concept of all yidden being one neshama is brought down in Zohar. And expounded upon in many places in Chassidus. Also Tanya perek beis.
You’re welcome to ask. All im saying is that there is a way to ask – in a respectful manner.
Have you heard of Yaakov having a neshama klalis? Or is that something only people who learn Chassidus have heard of.
Lastly it seems there is some confusion. You can’t daven to the Rebbe. But you can ask brochos from the Rebbe for anything, as many chassidim do, not just Chabad. And today, even litvishe people by their gedolim / Roshei Yeshivos.
How is this allowed? Explanation posted above. I get there may be many new concepts there for people who haven’t learned Chassidus, so feel free to ask on anything else or for any source.
“Moshe Rabbeinu did not consider it “fine” when the Yidden in the midbar asked him for things!
Seeשמות ט”ז”The problem there was that they were complaining, not
asking. And so Moshe was upset with their lack of emuna.Interestingly enough, you’re quote proves my point exactly. Moshe is saying there that when they complain against him, is not against him as a person, because what is he? He had no ego / selfish interests of his own. Rather, when they rebel against Moshe, they are really rebelling against Hashem. Because Moshe is just the messenger…
“I have more derech eretz for your Rebbe ztz”l, than to think that he would compare himself to the RBS”O or even to Moshe Rabbeinu, c”v. ”
You are missing the point. Every yid has the potential to live a life that shows that he is one with Hashem, and not a separate being with separate interests.
A tzadik (who has permanently conquered his yetzer hara) lives this reality all the time , which is our deepest potential revealed.
So he’s not comparing himself to Hashem as that would be ego / avoda zara. Rather he has reached the level where he has no more personal selfish interests other than what Hashem wants. And that is the deepest real us. We all live that reality sometimes but a tzadik lives it all the time. Basically his “self” is gone… Do you get it?
It might be hard to understand, but when you observe a tzadik in action you experience the concept so it’s crystal clear.
Just for example, if the Rebbe asks me to teach Jewish children in Timbuktu, I’d be stupid not to, because it’s not serving his personal interests – he doesn’t even have any. Rather, he is Hashem’s messenger telling me what my lifes mission is. A personal message from Hashem – relayed to me via his Roeh Neeman. And if that’s what I’m meant to do, that means this is what I was created for and given my set of talents for. And if course, fulfilling my mission will help me live life to the fullest.
Guess I should mention by the way that a Rebbe only gets his unique spiritual capabilities because of the regular Jew like you and I. As we saw by the first Rebbe, Moshe rabbeinu, when bnei Yisrael sinned, he was expelled from heaven because he was only asked there for their sake.
And during the 40 wandering years, Hashem didn’t talk to him for years and years although he never sinned with the Miraglim because he only has his position because of us.
Anyhow because Joseph is getting impatient here’s the concept in a few points.feel free to ask on anything.
Memutza hamafsik is when someone goes to an intermediary, (outside of him) to go to Hashem for him. This can even be a malach or spiritual powers such as the 70 sarim etc. For a yid this is avoda zara as we need to go directly to Hashem with nothing serving as a bridge in between.
Mimutza hamechaber is when we’re all one so you’re not going to someone in between. Like the knot of a rope is the rope itself.
To explain:
Every yid has a neshama which is at its essence, one with Hashem, that’s why when a Jew is faced with the certain prospect of cutting himself off from Hashem, he will find up his life, like we see by avoda zara. Then we come into this world which looks the furthest thing from Hashem.
Our mission is to show how this world, which looks as far as it can get from Hashem, is really one with Hashem by living that reality in Torah and mitzvos life.
All yidden are one neshama split between many bodies. The “brain” of the neshama, is the Rebbe.
This means, just like the brain of the child is the only part that stays the same essence as the brain of its father, so too the neshamos of our leaders are one with Hashem’s chochma, they are our deepest part.
So when you go to the Rebbe for a Bracha etc your connecting to the deepest part of your own neshama.
However the Rebbe serves a double function: He is also Hashem’s messenger / ambassador on earth to help every yid internalise their inborn emuna and live according to it.
So when the Rebbe, (a tzadik according to the definition of Tanya), tells you something, he’s not telling you his personal opinion of what you should do with your life, rather, Hashem is giving you personal guidance through the Rebbe.
Hashem setup this system in the midbar and from then on. Which is why the yidden always came asking Moshe for everything, but doing the same with the eigel was avoda zara.
Now you can also understand the medrash tehillim on kapitl tzadik “Tefilla lMoshe Ish hoelokim” “Moshe’s lower half was human and upper half- Elokim.”
Meaning, he was so transparent, had no ego etc, until Hashem could speak through him and he could say “I will give grass…”
Alright lots here, ask whatever isn’t clear.
Was also worth it for finding out those nefesh Hachaim quotes thanks @awww
“you’re trying valiantly, but I’m afraid you’re wasting your time here. Perhaps use your skills in the comments section on chabad.org:)”
Na I’m fine although I did say I will protest when unacceptable things are said, so for the sake of those who actually want to find out, maybe they’ll stop that. As long as the mods are fair with this discussion, which they have been, and there are people who are sincere which I think there are, I don’t see why I should leave everyone hanging because of three or two spoilers. Many chabad.org readers are a bit too basic to share this deep learning, which is fine but not exactly an alternative 😉
Would just like to remind you toi and everyone else, right now we are holding by clarifying the difference between mimutza hamafsik vs mimutza hamechaber. Which spells out why asking Moshe rabbeinu for things in the midbar was fine whereas doing the same with the eigel was avoda zara.
However toi has reminded me of another story / that of korach. You see when someone has proven himself to be a messenger of Hashem, and one, even someone great, like korach was, impudently fights against and denigrates him, he is really fighting against Hashem, as Moshe and Aharon made made abundantly clear, and Hashem did with their punishment.
Again, these remarks were made before the Rebbe became Rebbe and he said that they don’t need to be accepted by those who don’t get the hergesh.
Half a year later the Rebbe was chosen and accepted to become Rebbe. And through his life definitely proved whose messenger he is. He was consulted and visited by numerous Gedolei Yisrael just offhand by the chacham Eliyahu, Rabbi Soliveitchik, the Gerrer Rebbe and many more. He never went on vacation all the years, barely ate or slept and worked around the clock for klal Yisrael.
He managed to inspire regular people to devote their whole lives on shlichus and greatly expanded that system which has far reaching effects till today.
So after all that to come and publicly mock and disparage the Rebbe, I hope for your own sake you do teshuva as you’re really playing with fire as korach did.
Or maybe they were asking for a Bracha? There must be more to it
@bubbyo i would also find that frightening. Never experienced anything like that and I’ve grown up and taught within Chabad. Maybe it would help to clarify what they were
“davening”? Ie maybe they werent davening, but singing a song and the whole thing was a misunderstanding?Never heard anything like this by me or any friends and my world is Chabad. Easy for stories to grow tails…
Actually I take that back toi. Was trying to figure out that lay sentence for awhile. Goodness, some people never learn. Don’t want to rehash about ten posts so I’ll just say I can’t continue to answer someone so lacking in respect for Gedolei Yisrael. Really unacceptable. I can address Josephs questions tomorrow iyh.
Lol toi. I’m gonna go into mimutza hamechaber etc to answer Joseph. But will see if I get to it tonight. You’re welcome to post any other sources. Will be interesting to look it up.
Bottom line : the average chossid learning the sicha (as I did when I was in tenth grade) understands it like the nefesh Hachaim above. Both because we learn what a Memutza hamechaber is vs. Memutza hamafsik, and also as can be simply inferred from the examples given, all of which are creations expressing / revealing Hashem here.
As far as the Rebbe not having sources- he said he didn’t EXPLICITLY see this written, very different than making it up from scratch, as seen the same idea from his examples.
But as the Rebbe said, you don’t have to accept his understanding. “Yhi lo asher lo.” But do us all a favor and don’t put yourself on the same footing as the Rebbe, especially when you have no clue what he is saying, ie the difference between mimutza hamafsik vs mimutza hamechaber etc. Which is always the case when you misunderstand. Just say you don’t understand. “Bmakom gedolim al taamod.”
DY its nigle, not a maamar, so of course the context is a nigle context. That doesn’t change the fact of how the gemara describes Rabbi Yitzchak. And again the way you understood the sicha is wrong. See the nefesh Hachaim posted above.
So are we done with that one?
Moving on to Josephs question
“Is this a quote from the sichah?”
Yup
@littlefroggie he was one successor of the Maggid of Mezritch, among many others (That’s how all the branches of Chassidus came from -the talmidei hamaggid. And he was very exclusive with who he approved to be his talmid…)
Aww that’s great thanks. I was gonna go deep into what a neshama is, the role of a tzadik, how we Hashem and Torah are all one, but you put it so nicely and simply that it looks like there is no need 🙂
“So says Chabad doctrine. Many others claim the Rebbe (and some say even the Frierdike Rebbe) made unacceptable changes. Al zeh gufo anu danin.”
DY what is your point? First of all, I’ll have you know that the Frierdiker Rebbe was the only son of the Rebbe Rashab, abd was the menahel of his father’s Yeshiva while his father was still Rebbe. So it seems like some people didn’t like something the Frierdiker Rebbe said and so said he made unacceptable changes. Meanwhile your haven’t quoted one person or one instance. But ok. Let’s assume this is true.
So what are you doing asking for clarification? Even if let’s say, your Gadol said not to follow the Rebbe’s shita on certain matters, why would you think its acceptable to tell me that my Rebbe isn’t a good enough source for me? If toy dont follow the Rebbe’s shita, stay out of the discussion.
That’s like me telling a Satmar chossid that he shouldn’t listen to his Rebbes shita on how to treat zionism because my Rebbes shita differs. Excuse me who asked you? I didn’t ask you if I should be litvish or Chabad. You asked me for sources on something the Rebbe said. Which I provided.
That’s the discussion here. If you don’t like it. Don’t comment. If you want to learn, you’re welcome to comment. And even if say, that is the shita of your gadol, it doesn’t give young the right to decide on the Rebbe’s greatness as you are nothing compared to him. As am I. The most you can do is quote your gadol but that’s not the discussion here and I would not be privy to such a discussion on any case as I’m not interested in analysing machlokes of gedolim nor is it my place.
Yes DY I can explain further np
OK I looked up the actual sicha – have you looked it up toi? There are sources right there.
So much for the Rebbe being his own source. But here I’ll translate for you, since we’ve come this far:
From acharon shel Pesach, 5710 (the Frierdiker Rebbe was nistalek then, and the Rebbe had farbrenged the whole year about keeping hiskashrus with the Frierdiker Rebbe, until he was forced to take on the nesius).
“Some ask, how can one even ask anything from a Rebbe, isn’t this the idea of a mimutza – intermediary between a person and Hashem?
Others ask this in connection to matters relating to yiras shomayim-
There is a meshulach who would accept pidyonos with regards to Gashmius matters, but not Ruchnius ones because he would say, even Hashem Himself doesn’t do this, as it says “Hakol bidei shomayim chutz miyiras shomayim.”
And the answer to this is:
When we say “Yisrael, Torah and Hashem are all one” (Zohar), we don’t only mean that “Yisrael connect to Torah which is connected to Hashem,” (Zohar chelek gimmel, 73a), but that they are actually one.
So too with the hiskashrus between chassidim and the Rebbe, it’s not like two separate entities which then unite, rather, they are actually one. And the Rebbe is not a mimutza hamafsik (which is avoda zara -ed), but rather a mimutza hamechaber. (More on this later as is concept in its own)
So automatically, by a chossid, he, the Rebbe and Hashem, are all one.
I haven’t seen this explicitly stated in Toras HaChassidus, but this is my hergesh, so automatically, whoever gets it, will feel it, and whoever doesn’t, I don’t want to argue with him, he can be as he is.
And so automatically, there is no place to ask about a mimutza, because this is Hashem’s essence as He has clothed Himself within a body.
This is like the quote of the Zohar, “The face of the Master, Hashem, is Rashbi”
(footnote : I have seen baalei Nigleh asking on this, and with a great shturem, hayitochen etc etc. But there is an explicit reference in nigle as well, and this is in the Yerushalmi bikurim chap 3, halacha 3: “and Hevaya in His Holy chamber, this refers to R’ Yitzchak the son of Rabbi Elazar in the beis midrash of Kisarin.)
Or as we also find that even a malach who is fulfilling Hashem’s shlichus is called by Hashem’s name at that time, (see Tanya iggros kodesh end of chap 25), or as Moshe rabbeinu said, “And I will give grass” (Ekev 11, 15. Also see likutei Torah vayikra 50, 1)”
Ok so that’s the full quote that toi is having a hard time understanding. If you actually saw it inside as posted, you’d have seen sources there, so the Rebbe didn’t make it up and it wasn’t about himself.
Now if you’d like to understand more about the difference between mimutza hamafsik vs mimutza hamechaber, or any other point that isn’t clear, I’ll be happy to clarify. Just make sure it’s phrased appropriately so that I can explain :).
At DY ok let me make it clear: the Rebbe is the Frierdiker Rebbe’s successor, who is the successor of the Rebbe Rashab, who is of the Rebbe Maharash who is of the Tzemach Tzedek who is of the Mitteler Rebbe who is of the Alter Rebbe aka Baal HaTanya who is of the Mezritcher Maggid who is of the Baal Shem Tov who is of Achiya HaShiloni and R Adam Baal Shem who is of R Yoel Baal Shem who is of R Eliyahu Baal Shem….
I think you get the picture. It’s one long unbroken chain and to discredit one is to discredit all. And who are you to think of starting up with these tzaddikim? I also don’t know what you mean by the Frierdiker Rebbe being controversial. Chabad has always taken a unique path as it does today – like how we relate to not yet frum Jews, the value of one mitzvah etc.
And those positions are not universal.
But no one is saying they werent Torah greats or tzaddikim except for some coffee room “experts” who hear half a quote, never bother to look it up, and based on that decide how great or ungreat the holy Rebbeim are.
I hope you’re starting to see the absolute chutzpah inherent in this.
DY not me and you. Another accepted Torah giant, in this case chiefly, the Frierdiker Rebbe, amongst many others.
DY yes I am very aware of the many readers. Just if every other post I need to protest the denigration of Torah, is not very productive. So that’s why I’m setting my terms now.
Toi, if it sounds the way you think it does, by all means ask. Just saying that if you’d like me to answer, we need to have proper respect here. The first time you asked on the other thread, that respect was lacking. Ok happy to start answering with no further ado, as long as respect is adhered to.
@wtp that was my mistake with the last thread. I thought respect for Daas Torah was a given. So you’re right I won’t make that mistake again bli neder. At the same time, if we can agree to that, then it can be an interesting discussion. If not, then it’s not that there are no answers, it’s that the questioner is not interested in answers, just questions. So unfortunately, I’ll have to leave him with his questions.
OK let me just clarify the situation. The Rebbe was not born yesterday and this comment was not made yesterday – it was made in 1950 before the Rebbe took on the nesius , when the Rebbe was farbrenging about the Frierdiker Rebbe’s greatness. Now I have never heard of any big shturem that erupted then in the jewish world – either they understood the comments as the chassidim did (which you don’t because you haven’t learned Chassidus and which I can clarify for you if wanted sincerely), or they realized the Rebbe is such a Torah giant that they must not have understood right.
The Rebbe, already when he arrived in America knew the whole Shas in and out, and by Farbrengens, Rabbi Soliveitchik expressed amazement at the Rebbe’s ability to speak for hours on end, with no notes, quoting from kol HaTorah kula, both Nigleh and Chassidus.
So I’m definitely not here to exonerate the Rebbe to you, as it is a chutzpah to think you are in the position to even question the Rebbe.
For example, my Rebbeim did not endorse zionism, quite the opposite. However I would never tell a zionist that Rav Kook didn’t know what he is talking about cuz I know Torah better and he doesn’t make sense.
I would never do such a thing because I’m a Torah yid abs we don’t treat Daas Torah that way. If he asks me why I’m not a zionist, I would quote what my Rebbeim said as they have the ability to disagree because they’re on the same level. But I would never deign to place myself on the same level as HaRav Kook, and I would expect the same of every Torah he.
Now that doesn’t mean you can’t ask questions. But there is definitely a way to ask. Such as “I don’t understand how the Rebbe could have said this because I don’t see how that can fit with this Rambam….”
And in such a case I’ll be happy to clarify, of course I can use the Rebbe to clarify his own statements.
So if that’s what you want, great. If you are just looking to bash lubavitch and the Rebbe Chas vsholom, at your own risk, I will definitely not be party to such a discussion.
Joseph, you had a sincere question and I’ll be happy to answer. You always phrase things appropriately in my experience. Toi let me know where you stand.
Lol aww enjoy! As for me if anyone wants me to answer sources etc. I need a a starter that any Torah source is acceptable, not just the ones the questioner may be more familiar with. Also would need to clarify who the Rebbe was and is because judging people lchaf zechus, it seems some are unaware.
Since I have a halachic obligation afaik to protest the denigration of a talmid Chochom and kal vchomer my Rebbe, would need these points to be clarified before any serious answers can be posted. Lmk if you’re interested. Gutte voch.
First some basics as syag has a point. If I am to answer, we need to agree on the basics.
1) there are no “Elokists” in lubavitch. It’s not lubavitch there are maybe a handful of some people, like five? Who went off r”l. So don’t equate them with lubavitch by saying meshichists and Elokists as if it’s one and the same.
2) we had a discussion on meshichists, the term means different things to different people. May be helpful to elaborate on what you mean by that, as by one definition, I wouldn’t be, by another definition, the vast majority of lubavitch are.
3) If we’re discussing Torah, all Torah sources should be acceptable. Otherwise were just having a culturally acceptable conversation which is not worth my time as you can’t have a fruitful discussion based on emotion.
And by Torah sources I mean that Zohar and other pnimius HaTorah, such as Chassidus sources can be used as well. It’s the same Torah and you will find the sources in Nigle as well, but I am not as familiar with all Nigle sfarim. We shouldn’t have to bring the nefesh Hachaim because the Zohar or Tanya isn’t as acceptable. Of course you can bring in supporting Nigle sources, is all the same Torah and you’ll find the ideas in both. Gaon seems like he’s got a well rounded base of knowledge and maybe he’ll be able to help out here as well,
Can we agree on these points?
I see it. This is kind of overwhelming because there is so much that isn’t understood here that all these questions are based on. If I answer point by point, you won’t understand or I’ll need to write a whole megilla which will be repetitive in the end.
The way I can answer is by explaining concepts. Once those concepts are understood, the questions fall away as they are no longer questions. Does that sound like a plan? We are probably on different time zones and tomorrow is erev shabbos, but I’ll keep up until its answered (other people feel free to answer as well, it takes off the pressure and helps out.)
I’ve done this on other threads and kept up until there were no more questions or until the thread was closed 😜. Lmk if this sounds like a plan.
Will do toi.
Anyhow back to toi, you have a different question than Joseph : his is how today’s lubavitchers maintain hiskashrus, yours is about the role of tzaddikim in general.
Just a note of caution: I don’t think it’s OK, smart or acceptable to talk about a Gadol BYisrael, Nassi hador whatever term your want to use, as if you’re greater than him when your are nowhere close. Kal vchomer to condescend. That’s in general. If you don’t understand something you can ask to clarify respectfully as we’re all meant to treat Daas Torah.
Not to mention that in your post you are clueless, as the way you understand the Rebbe’s words is completely skewed. Similar maybe, to a goy who sees Jews call themselves the chosen nation, and therefore concludes we must want to treat all goyim like the Nazis did. Completely off. That’s fine because you haven’t learned pnimius HaTorah so it makes sense you can be clueless in those areas, and I’m happy to fill you in but your post was really phrased inappropriately.
Anyhow, I’m happy to address as long as the mods don’t mind as stated. If they’d rather keep the topics to less deep and pareve stuff like the price of fruit on tu bshvat, doctor advice, and tourist destinations, that is their right, but it means I can’t answer on this forum.
So if you are curious, I guess try opening a thread on the topic.
DY if you’re talking about schools/ communities that don’t accept children to school and cut off contact with adults who don’t keep to their standards then you may be right. Although technically not fair comparison because those families and adults that were turned away make a certain percentage that we do take in.
If you’re saying mosdos / communities that operate like it’s where we don’t deny a proper chinuch to a child because of his family background etc. then I think it’s the same. Our girls who are seriously into Yiddishkeit, lubavitch “chassidish” as it’s termed, are fully tznius. Those who don’t take things as seriously are no worse off than the same from beis Yaakov.
We are sound more to strengthen tznius, in eretz Yisrael there have been tznius support and discussion groups called maagalim which has now spread worldwide and happy to hear of more ideas.
My point is that it’s unfortunately a global issue because of today’s society which bombards us with everything opposite. Not just an issue in Chabad.
Na is just that allot more people call themselves lubavitch. Just had this discussion with some beis Yaakov teachers – they said they also have their graduates who aren’t so tzanua unfortunately. I guess they just don’t get called BY if they dress like that? But the lubavitch graduates who dress that way still call themselves lubavitch. So what’s the difference?
Geordie613 yes you are right except that technically only if you move out of the center, Crown heights, to devote yourself to chinuch, is it chinuch shlichus.
Hml. I do think it could have been worded better, but I can understand where he is coming from because since I was born the year of gimmel tammuz, if you’re not lubavitch, it is not your typical thing if you get what I mean. And if that gets you frustrated, probably better not to comment on here at all because there definitely is a wariness of this kind of stuff here even if you being all the sources! For example, my comment responding to that one that I can’t answer unless I’m able to answer fully, took forever to come through.
Is that harsh? Possibly or it is just fear of the unknown. I don’t know. But if that bothers you, then it’s not just Joseph and I welcome the questions as a chance to explain. (If I am allowed).
The truth is im being unnecessarily harsh on hml. I’m sorry. Maybe because I have many frum non lubavitch neighbours and teach in beis Yaakov, I get what the question is now than someone just surrounded by lubavitchers. Hml I think he’s just curious, and he’s not the only one. One of our neighbours asked my husband the same thing in a sincere way by our sholom zachar, and they had a whole interesting discussion. You have to think of it from an outsiders perspective and then the question makes sense.
@neville I think the main point you’re missing is that we are all trained to be soldiers of Hashem and the Rebbe, no matter if on shlichus or at home. So the chinuch is the same which is why we meld together. If your take the Rebbe out of the picture the whole thing falls apart, shlichus included for adults as well.
To understand what I mean, you can watch the latest tzivos Hashem worldwide kids rally. It’s on you tube. You can search yud shvat kids rally 5778 to get what our chinuch is like.
Wait hml. I must say I completely disagree with you. I don’t pick up any of that from Joseph, or Most people here. Why are you being so harsh? You come off as defensive for no reason at all. Your beautiful points about your family would come across much better without the snarky intro.
When you move out to a community to devote yourself to chinuch there. Our kids are important too, not only not yet frum kids.
My brother in law and his wife are on shlichus in arizona. They’re there for the local lubavitch school. They also looked quite awhile for the right fit and are also near one of their parents.
“What’s this business about you speaking to the Rebbe, writing to the Rebbe, and the Rebbe giving you answers and advice? Do you go to his Ohel for these speaking/writing and find a note from him written upstairs in Shamayim and sent downstairs to you in your mailbox?”
Such a topic, if it is to be addressed, must be addressed fully and thoroughly, not in half sentences and half posts. The mods allowed allot more through when I just joined, but now it seems anything they haven’t heard before in their community, even if with Torah sources etc just gets deleted, maybe dependent on the mod. So I can’t address this in such a fashion. If the mods respond to my concern, or they allow you to open a thread on this question, then I’ll be happy to address.
“A couple of questions, Gateshead is a very frum litvishe town in NE England, and right next to it, is Newcastle, a city with very little yiddishkeit. The Chabad shliach in Newcastle sent his children to the litvishe schools in Gateshead. (This was 14 years ago but may still be true.)”
Not sure if this is a question but yes many shluchim will send their kids to the local/ driving distance beis Yaakov etc.
“How would a potential shliach feel about going to a place which is very near a thriving mokom Torah, as opposed to a place which is a genuine hick town in the back end of beyond? Is a Newcastle type place more attractive or does it make no difference to a young couple starting out on shlichus.”
Good question. Depends. Some couples prefer a frum community as it has the amenities of kosher food, Mikvah, schools etc. Some prefer the hick town as the Jews there are more likely to not have any interaction with Jews otherwise. Those of us who go into chinuch shlichus, myself included do feel sometimes that we are kind of missing out on “real”
Shlichus, and have to constantly remind ourselves that this is where Hashem meant for us to be so this is the best thing for us and our surroundings.Case in point, my husband and I looked into Nigeria and China… and ended up in a frum community across the world within driving distance of my in laws, complete with lubavitch chadorim etc. helping out with one of the mosdos. Sometimes it’s hard not to feel inferior to my friends, like the one who is the first to the congo or some other African country. Or my friends on campus. Etc. But this is my shlichus and I’m doing my best to make a difference.
Secondly, how does the OTD rate compare in Crown Heights with the OTD among shluchim?
I don’t know if there has been any case study, but from my personal experience, much much less among shluchim, and pretty much non existent (in my experience) amongst the very chassidishe shluchim. Even the ones who watched movies/ sports at home etc and weren’t the most chassidishe families, their kids are no worse than them and sometimes even better. One case in point: the daughter went on to marry a young man also from same type of background, and they went on to be the Rabbi and rebbetzin of a successful high class United synagogue in the UK. They still have a modern home, but she teaches kallas runs Hebrew school and many more programs and in general is the right fit for their community.
@toi the Zohar says that a tzadik who passes on is found in this world even more than before (as he is no longer limited by a body). The Rebbe continues to give us koach and indoor us to do everything we do. Geordie613+1.
There’s allot more to be said but a) it was already touched on in past threads and b) the moderating has gotten allot stronger in my experience so I probably couldn’t relate the idea anyhow.c) I don’t want to derail the thread and as said, the concept has already been explained elsewhere.
by hp I just finished my post and then my phones pinged with this letter with seems very much directed to you. So here.
*A Jew in Madagascar*
_The following is a freely translated excerpt from a letter the Rebbe wrote in the fall of 1961 to a Jewish woman living in Madagascar._
By the Grace of G‑d
Brooklyn, N.Y.Greeting and blessing:
. . . It was with pleasure that I received regards from you and your husband, through Rabbi Joseph Weinberg, upon the latter’s return from his visit in your community. It was a double pleasure to hear from him about your and your husband’s warm and willing response to the task of unifying the Jewish families in your area and bringing them closer to the practice of Judaism, especially that your husband has taken it upon himself to teach the children, which is of increased importance in our times, for today it is the children who influence their parents.
Certainly you and your husband are aware of the principle of “specific divine providence”—a principle that is a mainstay of our faith in general, and of the teachings of Chassidism in particular. “Specific divine providence” means that every event, great or small, that occurs in the world, whether involving an inanimate object, a growing thing, an animal or a human being, in its every detail and sub-detail, does not occur by chance, G‑d forbid, but is specifically ordained by G‑d as part of His intentions and purpose in His management of the world.
Therefore, it goes without saying that when a Jew finds himself in a distant corner of the world, far from his homeland, far from any established Jewish community, this is certainly not by chance. This Jew should see himself as an emissary of the Omnipresent through whom G‑d’s word may reach also this corner of the world, bringing about an increase of justice and righteousness among all its inhabitants, and spreading the teachings and observances of Judaism among its Jews.
In such a case, one should not look upon the number of individuals that one has the opportunity to influence. Our sages have said, “Whoever upholds a single Jewish soul, it is as if he has upheld an entire world.” If this is true at all times, how much more so does it apply to our generation, after the destruction, Heaven forfend, of such a significant portion of our people. Today, every surviving Jew is a “brand salvaged from the fire” who must not only fulfill his own role, but also take the place of those who perished in sanctification of G‑d’s name . . .
Oot yid – hard to know what to say but better to say something than nothing. Sounds like a really difficult situation you’re in. Can’t offer you how to get out of it because I’m not aware of your exact circumstances and I’m sure you’ve explored your options.
This I can tell you though: we yidden by connecting to Hashem raise ourselves above nature! Even if it looks like you’ll lose out and lose your home cvs because of shabbos, it’s just a test, and if you tracht gut, think good, then vet zein gut, it WILL be good bpoel mammash!! This is the power of Bitachon.
Think of how many of us have big families with average income / skills. Technically, most of us should be homeless cvs, but we aren’t because yidden are above nature. Hashem gives us what we need and He usually makes it work through nature although it’s above nature. I don’t know who you are or how I can help practically but I’m just telling you I’ve been in a similar financial situation when I was just married and my husband decided to go to kollel cuz that’s what the Rebbe said, and at that point they didn’t pay. If they paid, it was 300 a month when rent was over a thousand.
My teaching job in beis Rivkah wouldn’t cover food expenses and rent, and besides, beis Rivkah always paid late so it really didn’t look like a sensible move to live in CH and go to kollel there.
So we wrote into the Rebbe, and got a letter that said that my husband should learn in a place with a Chassidishe seviva. And as far as the Gashmius were worried about, we should know that Hashem will send our Gashmius where it is best for us bruchnius.
So we moved.
And it worked. Every month or so people would approach us and ask us if they could support Torah learning (we are far from the only kollel couple and did not solicit at all) abs we got about 1000 extra a month.
7 months later, the kollel started paying a thousand a month and all the extra offers stopped.
Hashem is real. He will help you. Stay strong!!!
Practically neville, kids of shluchim go to winter camps, summer camps, and kinus together, and summer camp with mainstream kids.Also once they hit high school or Yeshiva, they often go away and dorm in the regular schools. So they’re not cavemen to the regular community.
When I taught in beis Rivkah fifth grade, I had a girl in my class for a week from a far flung community in Canada. Her parents send her to beis Rivkah in CH every year for a week or two so the transition won’t be difficult by high school as shell be familiar with each other. She’s not the only one.
In addition nowadays shluchims kids go to online school together and receive an excellent chassidishe education. In fact, some of my classmates in ninth grade came straight from online school and they were on par with us, and in some ways even advanced.
So educationally they’re fine. Socially the shluchim do their best for their kids as some examples above. Some also will send their kids to the local Jewish school for the secular studies just so they develop social skills, and teach them kodesh at home. Every family sees what their kids need and do their best for them. Bh now there are more resources than ever with online school and conference calls etc then ever before.
OK just for perspective…
About why it works: garelik girl on shlichus in Italy attended a bayis Yaakov where the teacher asked this question and embellished with a mashal. Even if your Yiddishkeit is very warm and strong, like hot water, if you put the hot water in a bowl of cold water and add much more child water than hot, the water gets cold.
Garelik girl answered that yes it’s true but only if the pot is not plugged in. If it is, then the cold water also warms up…that’s the secret of hiskashrus. I heard this story from her brother Rabbi garelik of Crown heights.
On the opposite note, I heard this story but not first hand so could be the details area somewhat off.
Basically a shlucha wrote an upset angry letter to the Rebbe asking why get kids didn’t turn out so well, when the Rebbe guaranteed shluchims children. The Rebbe responded something to the effect of, I never asked you to put those magazines in the bathroom…
Point being if you are on shlichus as a proper chossid and behave as the Rebbe wants, and keep the hiskashrus strong, you’re kids come out all the better. I know many shluchims kids myself, when their parents are chassidim they’re the cream of the crop of lubavitch. Here neville you are mistaken. There are many many case studies of living second generation shluchim today.
But if someone goes on “shlichus” because they like the beachfront say, or even start off well but then compromise their standards to impress balabatim, then the achrayus is on their shoulders.
Or maybe even then it’s on the Rebbe’s as their kids may turn out better than they would have in the ffb community.
Point being, if you are a shliach as in shlucho shel Adam kmoso of the Rebbe, and do your best to lead a life that a chossid should, then the achrayus is on the Rebbe. If you’re not a shliach then there’s no special bracha.
By lubavitch, the Rebbe took the achrayus on his shoulders, and practically we see that whichever shluchim are mekushar to the Rebbe, their kids have a special Brocha with their chinuch. I’ll be happy to elaborate with a story if you’d like.