CS

I think you need to ask yourself why you feel youre ready now and what you have to offer as far as showing you are a responsible frum boy. My relative thought he could marry a really good girl without making major effort because there are more girls than boys. Once he saw a girl and get family won’t just say yes, and if he wants a good girl he needs to make effort, he started taking his own responsibilities such as being consistent with Minyan, kovea itim etc allot more seriously, and he found his match rather quickly when he reentered the parsha at 21.

“If someone yearns for Moshiach, but does mitzvos because Hashem commanded, is he a kofer?”

No. It takes allot to be a kofer and we should never throw around the term lightly. However its not ideal as per the mashal. Laskern also addressed it well.

The reason why I mentioned the kofer part is because toi was telling off litvishechossid, and said he should just do Torah and mitzvos, implying he shouldn’t care when moshiach comes, and I was also pointing out that yearning for moshiach is a central tenet of Judaism.

Np toi. I was just pointing out what is wrong with that quote. Not trying to get into discussion with you as we mutually agree that certain prerequisites are missing for that.

“As to wondering who made this up, I’m with you on that one. So, I can declare, just like you, that it’s weird and funny. That’s where I get off.”

Thank you haleivi for your comments. I’m still happy to answer any questions including that one, just wasn’t able to to on the other thread because it became more of a bashing one with tons of different questions on different topics thrown in before one was resolved completely so I had to recusr myself. I also don’t think this thread is the right place to discuss due to the mocking tone. If you’d like to understand please see the stump the Rabbi site and click on the video that addresses this very question. Hope this helps.

Well luckily for us, we about to go back to that and even better. Kimei tzeischa meieretz mitzrayim arenu niflaos and Vlo yikanef od Morecha. Torah chadasha meiIti teitzei with the coming of moshiach which is happening soon!

Now for my final post on this thread iyh. Heres a summary:

The Rebbe took two FACTS and made a chiddush by putting one as a reason for the other.

Fact one: Hashem reveals Himself to the world through Tzaddikim. “Atzmus Umehus areingeshtelt in guf.”
Some mekoros of this idea:
1) The Rebbe’s five: R Yitzchak called Hevaya bheichal kodsho, a malach called by Hashem’s Name while doing His shlichus, Moshe rabbeinu using Hashem’s pronuon by Vnosati Esev, Rashbi’s face being likened to The Face of Hashem
2) Nefesh Hachayim 1:4 hagoh- same words pretty much verbatim
3)Medrash tehillim 90:1
4)
כי רועה ישראל חשוב כאלוקים ממש כי יושב על כסא ”
השם בארץ … והיינו כיון שהגון חשוב כאלוקות
”
ההשפעה הבאה מרוח קדשו של צדיק הדור אשר השכינה שורה בתוכו וממנו יומשך קדושה ”
“לכל דורו והוא מעונו של הקב”ה ששוכן בקרבו

Both of these quotes are from the Heilige Chasam Sofer (al Hatorah). The first is from Parshas Matos on the Posuk VaYimosru MeAlfei Yisroel the second is from Parshas Ki Tovo on the Posuk Hashkifah MiMeon Kodshecha. (Whis as he says there refers to the Tzadik Hador who is the Maon Kodhso of HKB”H)

Fact two: We can go to Tzaddikim with requests for brachos, although to ask the sun for brachos would be AZ.
Sources:
1) שות מנחת אלעזר סימן סח
2) Tzaddikim being alive after their passing- NEFESH HACHAIM 4:21, also Tanya Iggros Kodesh
3)Tshuvos Mahram Shick, Orach Chayim, 293

So the Rebbe just said the REASON why its ok to go to a Rebbe for brachos is BECAUSE we, Hashem and the Torah are all one, and Hashem is revelaed through the Rebbe.

Now I wanted to know why people would never question the Nefesh Hachaim for saying the EXACT same thing as what theyre all upset about, but feel the Rebbe they can question if he is a gadol. I said this makes no sense because:
1) He made this statement before he became Rebbe AND never retracted it (just remember the NH said the same thing, and lots of other sources, no need why he should retract it.)
2) Spent the rest of his life as a complete tzaddik
3) Was accepted as such by the majority of gedolim, (and I wont address the minority because I don’t want to go there, and anyway unless you say you specifically follow those one or two on every issue in your life (which i am almost sure you don’t, and choosing them davka here to hate on chabad is exactly that, sinas chinam.)

So who is anyone else to say that its “problematic”?

Other sources on the importance of connecting to a tzaddik and how hashem’s hashpoah comes through the tzaddik:
Sefer Hamitzvos 7 (connecting)
Tanya Perek Beis (hashpoah through)
darshos haRan 8 (and even after passing)
Noam Elimelech https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/chabad-shluchah-please-explain-why-davening-to-betten-a-rebbe-is-okay/page/7/#post-1466838

NO ONE DAVENS to the Rebbe, just asks for brachos to be brought down from what Hashem has alloted.

To understand more, there’s a need to learn the concept that NOTHING is a separate entity from Hashem (that would otherwise be the opposite of achdus Hashem cvs), it can only look that way, and our job is to REVEAL how everything is one with Hashem. by a tzaddik this is revealed. (See Shaar Hayichud vHoemuna which is Tanya section two for more on this)

AZ is something that thinks its a separate existence or power from Hashem, and serving it, is treating something like something separate and having power other than Hashem.

Sources outside of the Rebbe about looking at the image of a tzaddik to arouse Yiras Shomayim:
1)Kav Hayashar (16th century)

Concept of mimutza hamechaber vs hamafsik and the need for tzaddikim through which we connect to Hashem

@Chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay

Anyhow there’s many many more sources I am sure, because chassidus never makes things up, just emphasizes the ideas, brings them out of hiding, and elaborates. If you want to ask something else, feel free on another thread. Just do me a favor and stick to one question at a time. Otherwise, its impossible to address properly.

On why we obssess over our Rebbe and how the Rebbe helps me serve Hashem better:

@Chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay

@Chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay

As requested:
Rebyid 23: why not Moshe Rabbeinu himself
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/chabad-shluchah-please-explain-why-davening-to-betten-a-rebbe-is-okay/page/3/#post-1462840 #1

Rso: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/chabad-shluchah-please-explain-why-davening-to-betten-a-rebbe-is-okay/page/7/#post-1467089

BTW the Bgashmius example I have of lyofi is from gemara and I gave it a another example. However the Rebbe explained the second one.

“Ain haisha ela lyofi” a woman was created for beauty. She’s the one who brings beauty to the world and that’s her role b gashmius and bruchnius..

Bgashmius she serves Hashem this way by uplifting her husband with her beauty and opening his mind to serve Hashem better. (Acc to gemara – 3 things open a man’s mind… A beautiful woman)

Bruchnius she doesn’t just do the plain act of the mitzvah, rather she infuses it with ahavas and yiras Hashem, does the mitzvos with excitement, bhiddur, and influences her family to do the same.

A woman is more emotional and she infuses get mitzvos with emotion, beautifying them and granting them the two wings of Ahava and Yirah to fly up to Hashem.

Ain haisha ela lbanim – a woman’s good qualities aren’t only left for her, but she infuses her kids with the same. A woman transmits her qualities to her children.

(My example) if a mother has yiras shomayim, she’ll quickly grab her childs yarmulka up if it falls, transmitting to get cold that its very important to constantly wear a yarmulka. And so to with everything. Whatever she is passionate about, she implants that passion in her kids. If she is Aidel, she imbues her children with aidelkeit and mentschlichkeit.
Etc.

There’s actually a few ways to wholesomely understand it.
The girls would actually start by saying (brought in same gemara) bachur sa na einecha – raise your eyes, and don’t look at a girl for her exterior. Sheker hachein vhevel hayofi. So how then did the girls themselves say ein haisha ela lyofi?

Anyhow here’s in very short – I’ll be happy to elaborate on any.

Looking at this thread, here’s some things I have seen inside:

When I was in high school I heard of the whole tu bav story and heard the women would say ein haisha ela lyofi.

Now I realized I must be missing something, because if the gemara says it, its true, but why would the women demean themselves in such a way? Especially we say in eishes chayil sheker hachein vhevel hayofi? And weren’t the people of that time on a much higher level than being so shallow?

So I looked into the Rebbe’s sichos to find what I was missing. I found it bh.

Important clarification : to the best of my knowledge, the Rebbe’s response regarding women driving only applied to women who had moved to a community where women didn’t drive, not merely visiting.

I remember hearing this together with another story that one woman drove anyway I guess because she figured it can’t be that bad if our Rabbanim pasken that its fine. End of story : unfortunately she was involved in a bad car accident r”l.

The Rabbanim who don’t allow women driving base it on the fact that a woman isn’t meant to be “out there” in the world like a man. I don’t know more as it isn’t our shita in lubavitch but that’s what I recall hearing.

@avrammd
I think we both are saying what a Rebbe is or isn’t. For some reason you are misunderstanding me. I hope to clarify for the last time iyh what the role of a Rebbe is. This would apply to all chassidim/ talmidim of tzaddikim by definition of Tanya.

I remember learning in kvuda bas melech that minhag hamakom only works to up a standard, not lower it. And of course it can’t compromise halacha.

So if I visit anywhere and my Rabbonim hold its best to wear a sheitel, I keep the sheitel.

But if I know that the wedding im attending in willi the people there only wear black id probably have to wear black but not sure if that’s a Tznius thing or a minhag hamakom thing or both.

If I go to a bungalow colony where people wear flip-flops I can’t do that because it lowers my standards.

And the meah shearim lady would not be able to take off her shawl if that is considered a higher standard is tznius.

@non political
“How do you know this? Better yet, how can anyone know such a thing? You would need knowledge of all the details of someone else’s life including intent.”

A persons personality is driven by what gives them pleasure. They then desire that which gives them pleasure. They then use their sechel to think about what they want and really understand it. This results in emotions- love or fear etc of whatever the item is. Finally the emotions make the person develop a plan of action to achieve what they want.

The soul / personality is the sechel and middos.

A person reveals who they are through the three expressions of the soul: thought speech and action.

Thought is closest to the soul. It then gets expressed though speech and or action.

A beinoni struggles with the yetzer hara but never does an aveira. Still, this struggle is apparent and expresses itself through the garments of the soul.

A tzadik sheeino gamur doesn’t struggle anymore with thought speech and action. Their yetzer hara is permanently drugged. They struggle with feeling – how much they can tolerate bad. A tzadik gamur has transformed his yetzer hara (or more correctly his nefesh habehamis) into another nefesh haElokis, so he doesn’t tolerate any bad at all as his love for Hashem is complete.

The Rebbe never exhibited any signs of struggle with the bad. What did he cry about? That the shechina is still in gadlus, that Jewish children don’t know Alef beis. What made him happy? Activities furthering Torah and mitzvos.

Besides there’s a whole mystical side of a Rebbe that can be sensed but I can’t put it into words as I am kind of clueless in that area. But people that met the Rebbe will share of that. There’s tons of personal recollections on jem.

@Eli p
That’s a very interesting answer. Thanks for sharing.
I wasn’t offended, just disheartened. So thanks for that.

BTW the reason why sechel and maybe others doubt im mainstream is because mainstream lubavitchers never bring up these topics. I wouldn’t either as they’re really not the things we focus on. Like I said this whole question of this thread I never knew was controversial before.

However the Rebbe never evaded questions, even uncomfortable ones. Chassidus demands emess, and I feel if we’re being asked we should answer fully, honestly and truthfully. If a chossid can’t do that, they have to examine why. As everything a chossid does should have a firm foundation.

@NP
“Which Gedolim (past or present) are on record endorsing that a Rebbe is mahuto v atzmuto mamish areingishtelt b’guf ? Can you cite a credible example of even one?”

Honestly, I never heard of that sicha being viewed as controversial before this thread. I happened to have learned that year of the Rebbe’s sichos many many times so I knew where to find it. On this thread, one person was mentioned as having called that the opposite of avodas Hashem cvs, so thats where I picked that up from. So being honest, as I do try to be, I’m going to make a distinction here between me and you so you know exactly where I stand.

For me: I know, as all Chabad Chassidim know, that the Rebbe lived his entire life as a Tzaddik Gamur of Tanya, and accomplished incredible things. Every time we learn a sicha of the Rebbe, Kal Vchomer a Maamar, it lights up our neshama and gives us renewed energy to serve Hashem. It sets our sights and goals higher.

It’s true that an individual can go off, no matter how great they are, but no one goes from being a Tzaddik gomur to an oved…. in a snap, and then back again, unless they are mentally unstable.

For example, Shabsai Tzvi started off as a bright student and looked like a promising Torah leader. If yoshke lhavdil was the student of R Yehoshua ben Prachia, he did too. (Both of them though were not at the level of a tzaddik gamur as when it came down to it, they showed ego/ crassness. The first by refusing to listen to his teacher, and the second by his crass comment which showed his world view.)

However, he went on to think he knew better than his teacher. He continued down a spiritually destructive path until it ended very sadly.

However, The Rebbe lived his entire life desiring nothing but what Hashem wanted. Before he went to cheder he was already picturing how the Geula would look. He never took one action, word and we can assume thought against Hashem. So since he is known to us as such, this controversial statement will remain that, controversial to others, but we accept it as the truth.

Now it could be for other communities, to say such a thing would lead to the opposite of avodas hashem for them because they don’t understand/ learn achdus Hashem in the light of Tanya. So for them, it can be a statement their Rebbeim feel is assur.

For example, Satmar is known for their anti Zionist protests as part of their avodas Hashem. For one of their bochrim to engage in it is considered a good thing. But if a BMG Bachor would participate, I would think his Rosh Yeshiva would scold him roundly for the bitul Torah because that’s not his path in avodas Hashem and he’s just wasting time.

Similarly the Breslov on their Simcha trucks. I dont see a chareidi wide condemnation against it, because we see where its coming from and they focus on simcha. But we probably would scold one of our own bochrim for spending his afternoon on one.

So what I’m saying is two points:

1)I’m really not interested in how many people were for it not for it etc. because the Rebbe is known as a tzaddik gamur and never did anything against Hashem, so this must also be truth.

I’m glad I know now all this information so I can be respectful in other communities to their views, such as with my BY students.

2) If you want, you can present here a list of Gedolim who said this is explicitly against halacha, and I think you’ll see its the minority. And it’s fine they dont endorse it, you dont find Lakewood gedolim endorsing anti Zionist protests, and we all have a different view with how to approach Zionism, yet we understand that this is a legitimate thing for Satmar to do even if it isn’t for us. Am I making sense?

From your posts it is clear to me that you are a sincere person. You know very well that the objection to this chiddush is not only from one Gadol. I’m very surprised you would claim such a thing.

“Also it seems to me, although I could be wrong, that there is a halachic “due process,” like by the gemara they hashed out their proofs for their opinions, and then voted on the final halacha.”

There are many examples post chazal where there is closure in halacha and dayos. For example:
1) Turning on a incandescent light bulb is chillul Shabbos
2) The Zohar HaKadosh is authentic

Right but that doesn’t address what I wrote.

fixed-79

And just to show what I mean that of anything Hashem is more real to me, and I care more for His agenda because of the Rebbe, if you are interested, I can post a song I wrote in high school expressing a conversation between me and Hashem.

“Rachmana litzlan”

Again one line out of context. You never had a feeling so deep you felt you could only share it with a very close friend? That doesn’t mean you don’t daven or turn to Hashem just cuz you tell a friend that you have a feeling you can only express to them

@syag
Thanks for eliminating the bashing.

@DY
Thanks for being honest. Now we can address the root of the issue. I came to this conclusion myself above.
2 points :

We don’t address Hashem and the Rebbe in the same way when it comes to Gashmius stuff.

For example: I will ask Hashem, please send us money right now.

If I was writing to the Rebbe I would write, id like to ask for a Brocha to have parnassa bharchava. Because the Rebbe is just clearing the way / asking Hashem for me.

When it comes to Ruchnius though, there we would use the same or similar expressions because the Rebbe is our Rebbe ie teacher and guide in Avodas Hashem, and also cares for us like a parent and even more.

We obsess over the Rebbe as you put it – as much as we give to the Rebbe, we can’t give back love and care add the Rebbe gave and gives. He obsesses over our welfare much much more.

Another important point:

This is why were able to reach places and do things no one else does. This is how a young couple can go to a place with no other frum yidden and not only survive spiritually, but turn other people into frum yidden or at least doing more mitzvos – because we’re batul and mekushar to the Rebbe.

The job of a Rebbe is to make the natural emuna a yid has real and internalised. So if anything I think I have a much deeper connection to Hashem and He is much more real to me in my life, than if I didn’t have a Rebbe.

Because otherwise I could not have a personal relationship with Him – Halo Elokecha eish ochla Hu?

He is Unlimited, we are. Everything were about, all the human concerns we have He doesn’t.

So how can we connect? Have a personal relationship?

Hidabek btalmidei chachamim.

When I see how much the Rebbe cares about my mundane concerns although he is light years away from that, I can see how Hashem cares. When I see how when I’m involved with Avodas Hashem how much nachas it gives the Rebbe, I realise that it must give Hashem so much more. Etc etc. Hashem is real to me. When I see how the Rebbe’s brachos come through, I realise even more how Hashem directs every detail.

So if anything my connection to Hashem is so much more real because I have the Rebbe.

@avrammd again Im being misunderstood. I wrote that the Rebbe is human in the very line you quoted. 5ish rephrased it nicely. As for how we talk to our Rebbe, see this mainstream Chabad camp song below:

Rebbe mein teyere Tatte
This Pan I write to you
My emotions deep within me
I can only turn to you

I hear them speak of farbrengens
Of hours spent together
Of your hand constantly giving
And a smile of love and care

But Rebbe I’m so young
I feel so very small
I wish I too had a memory to recall
How will I grow to be
What the Rebbe wants of me
Tatte please tell me how my life I should lead

My kind, dont worry I’m here with you
Learning my Torah makes it clear to you
That the world is ready the time is near
Spreading my Torah brings Moshiach here
Higiah zman Geulaschem

Repeat: But Rebbe I’m so young…

I’m going to take a break now, being that my words have been twisted to imply things I never meant. Including by a fellow lubavitcher.
Sechel I understand that you are a chossid although we have differences in how we are mekushar. Just because you may not hold of iggros etc. doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with it. In fact, quite the opposite. I know it’s tempting to think you’re way is right and 70% of Chabad is wrong, but the Rebbe made it very clear to me that both ways are acceptable, and therefore I’ve kept quiet many times when you’ve said things I disagree with. I expect the same courtesy.

5ish you’re doing a great job presenting what I was saying in yet another way. Maybe you’re better at explaining. Great one with bringing belzer example.

It seems to me that people are badly biased against Chabad, as no one said a word against the belzer chassidim although it seems until now they’ve been adamant that’s is not ok.

Looks like everyone thinks were crazy (agreed, we do things no one else does) and are just trying to pin it on something negative. Others love us for it.

I came here to interact with fellow yidden as friends. I don’t feel I’m being treated as one though. So I guess I’ll go back to my lubavitch farbrengen WhatsApp groups unless this attitude is cleared up.

Rebyid23 your question has already been addressed in this thread.

Mods thank you for allowing this conversation. The only way to reach achdus is by discussing our differences, respecting them, and emphasising our commonalities. So I appreciate your allowing this conversation.