CS

@neville noted. May it continue 🙂

@joseph @rso the mashpiims wives are definitely tznius. In general the Rebbe encouraged us women to dress beautifully and tzniusly. Afaik this is the Jewish approach not just Chabad, although we may differ on particulars such as sheitels. In any case the chassidishe couples – the men watch their eyes and don’t look out for not tznius pics vdal and the women dress beautifully and tzniusly.

Yes there are others who struggle. There are also Beis Yaakov graduates who dress the same but somehow no one calls them beis Yaakov girls, whereas all of our graduates are termed full on lubavitch so that’s not a fair comparison.

I really shouldn’t necessarily respond to that post as it was just meant to provoke, but I didn’t want to allow that slander against mashpiims wives to pass and shtika khodoah…

Knaidlach yes there is a description of the chassidishe farm settlement in the times of the Mitteler Rebbe (born 1773) proudly wearing their talis koton over their shirts as they worked.

The consensus on the untucked shirts is that it’s a bochur shtick which is given tacit encouragement (no one makes it a thing and tells them too that would defeat the purpose) by the fact that some older mashpiim also don’t tuck in…

And Im sure that even the Menahelim that give knasim for untucked shirts and tell the bochurim they need to look respectable, would prefer that this is the bochur shtick than taking it in the other direction, for example, not dancing with abandon on simchas Torah because they don’t want to scuff their shoes (There are many chassidishe stories scorning such behavior) or even worse caring about brand names etc.

Teenagers tend to take things to an extreme.when they grow up a bit, they get the fine lines. We’d all rather they overdo the not being into Gashmius than the opposite as that is the role of a bochur – to be fully mufshat
from Gashmius Olam hazeh and fully immersed in the Olam HaTorah

Before my earlier post gets lost for reference I think I should revise. There is definitely the emphasis on bittul and not priding oneself for ones wealth or even spiritual standing (you would see that expressed practically with the lack of kovod people attribute for themselves and the lack of classes with the rich or not, everyone mixes without airs, for the most part) but I guess the rich / poor thing neville was saying isn’t the reason for current lubavitch dress as all the other Rebbeim wore streimlach or the like and only our Rebbe dressed differently the reasons for which were brought earlier in the thread. We just go after our Rebbe.

As far as the tie thing to me it makes perfect sense but that’s for another post.

Sechel youre addressing from your perspective and circles and I’m addressing from the discussions I’ve heard between my father and brothers who were in Yeshiva and my husband and brother in law who is a shliach in Yeshiva… There is that way of thinking or all bochurim would just tuck in. It is a topic of conversation and discussion among lubavitchers and its silly to make it sound as if everyone tucks in because you do, when that’s not the case. There are different approaches in different yeshivos as well. My brother is in a Yeshiva where the married Mashpia doesn’t tuck in apparently (and its mainstream, not detroit and not Queens etc) although that is rare. Some of my other brothers have attended another Yeshiva where the bochurim would get a knas for an untucked shirt

I don’t know if visualisation is the right word and if the mashal I’m using is the best one but I saw a good animated video clip on it and it is pretty good. Anyhow I relate to Hashem as this Supernal Being Who provides life for everyone and is the life force of everything although the everything isn’t Him. But all of that pales and is nothing compared to Who He really is which is far above anything related to the world (like you wouldn’t praise a king as possessing 100 pennies) and nevertheless He wants us to praise Him with what we appreciate and our puny concerns from our very limited viewpoint.

Anyhow the visual I for the concept would be energy or electricity which is present everywhere, is manifest in lamps and is their essence and being without them being electricity themselves…

I’ve learned a maamar on gan Eden vs. Yemos
haMoshiach which are both termed Olam haba.

I’ll share the applicable nugget I remember happy to refer you further if desired…

Basically gan Eden rewards the neshama and personal perfection represented by the learning of Torah as Torah changes ones mindset and thereafter middos, and brings ultimate refinement to a person.That’s why not everyone gets there.

Moshiach rewards the body and refinement of the world, accomplished by the avoda of Maase hamitzvos. Since every yid does mitzvos, every yid (neshama at least there’s a whole other discussion regarding gilgulim) will be part and earn it. And it is even loftier than gan Eden which is why all the neshamos of the greatest people like the avos etc will leave gan Eden to have tchias hameisim and enjoy yemos hamoshiach.

Have we added that he closed down the plo office in Washington? He really does seem to be a moshiach agent sent to fight against the anti Torah liberals and bring down yishmael which is the last power before moshiach as foretold in nevuchadnetzars famous dream in Daniel

The Rebbe said a series of Rashi sichos where he analysed the depth of rashi, Rashis difficulty with the posuk and the many gems and lessons within. There is allot shakla vtarya there and often it ends off with a beautiful lesson.

One such memorable lesson I remember is on the Rashi of vayita oholo where rashi comments that the word is written ohola, her tent, to hint that Avraham pitched his wife’s tent before his own.

The Rebbe asks where rashi based his chiddush from and why he didn’t quote a source for the ben chomesh lmikra. He answers that the ben chomesh lmikra doesn’t need a source and doesn’t see it as a great chiddush because he sees Avraham Avinus behaviour reflected in his own home by the way his father treats his mother.

So Joseph can bring a bunch of sources from today till next year, bringing more and more to prove that the man ought to be master. We normal people who have been brought up in healthy frum homes and/or are in healthy marriages (I wouldn’t be so worried about Josephs wife, he is most probably either a bachelor or divorced) know that we respect our husbands as the heads of the home and take their guidance especially in spiritual matters seriously (assuming they are spiritually healthy. If not we strive to help them grow with encouragement). They in turn ask for our opinions and consult us on household matters and we both make sure we are on the same pages with chinuch etc. Some things we have more of the decision making role some things our husbands but we strive to discuss things together and come to decisions together in mutual respect. That is the Torah way and has been the way of healthy Jewish homes since the first.

Truth is any source can be construed in multiple ways to create injustice or the opposite and you often have to see how it plays out in real life. For example, people in the Jewish world were saying that halacha cvs allows child abuse because abusers tend to touch children without adults around and halachically children are not witnesses… But now with the swing liberalism has taken, we are seeing how much evil can be done when uncorroberated allegations are taken as fact, despite the lack of witnesses, and can be used to destroy people who have led righteous lives for as long as anyone knows…

And abusers don’t typically stop with one victim unfortunately and are eventually caught…

So something that may have been seen as condoning evil cvs is now being seen as protecting innocent people.

We can say the same here. Muslims and Jews seem to have similar laws of modesty, similar language and emphasis with the husband being the head of the household and the wife glorified as the mother etc… Yet look into Muslim society and you see that they don’t protect women with their modesty, they degrade them, beat them, and even honour kill them. So the whole talk of the modesty being a women’s protection of her honour etc is a sham.

Contrast that with the relationship between Jewish men and their wives, now and throughout the generations and you see mutual respect of each other and complementing roles, with the exceptions here and there that occur in any body of people.that is all the proof you need of what master means.

@philosopher busy here for yt too, but am familiar with the quotes Joseph brought. I’ve learned beraishis I’ve learned the whole hilchos ishus and nashim in Rambam. And the last gemara as well all makes sense within context. Just a quick note for now happy to go in depth in specifics after yt:

The mastery or enslavement of women Joseph speaks of is as you said missing context. A wife is not subservient to men. But you her husband she does have obligations some of which are / were servile and are based on what is considered a woman’s job at the time (no one washes their husbands feet and face today because while back then that was normal for wives and am expression of endearment today it would just be weird and demeaning as it isn’t the norm today.)

Her obligations are described as mishubedes enslaved. He also has his obligations to her in fact his are recorded explicitly in the Torah and there are others brought in chazal.

If either fail in their obligations they can get a divorce – he doesn’t whip her or rape her if she refuses to do her responsibilities but he can claim the right to divorce. She
can also file for divorce in beis din if he fails his obligations to her.

They both need to respect each other. Men have a need to be respected as an officer as the Rambam says she should view him. Ie that she respects him as in looks up to him. Women want to admire their husbands and don’t need to be looked up to in return but need their husbands to treat them with proper dignity as human beings and equals, as the Rambam says he should respect her MORE than himself.

Anyway gotta get back to menu planning..
Gut yom Tov to all!!

Although we do have the curse of vhu yimshol bach which does result in women being more easygoing and usually more willing to let the husband win in arguments (or think he won) because they care for the general relationship more than being right.

But it’s not a halacha women must give in all the time..it’s a curse. I’ve never seen men insist that they cannot use air conditioning or work in an office because of their curse of earning their bread by the sweat of their brow… It’s a curse not an ideal.

To clarify: im not saying that Torah says women should never do any work that a maidservant would do, quite the opposite and that is one of the main ways she endears herself to her husband and they have great sholom bayis – its by serving him in various ways.HOWEVER he for his part greatly respects her (more than himself as the same Rambam you quoted above goes on to say) and treats her like a queen and equal.

I think a great example of this is Rabbi Akivas wife Rochel. She worked really hard, in extreme poverty, and then raised the children herself did all housework etc while her husband left to learn for 24 years. However he made it clear that all the Torah he and his students had acquired was in her merit and he bought her a golden crown as soon as he could afford it to make up for the difficult times she slaved away. This represents the ideas above.

Edit: Torah giants throughout history

Since as philosopher said, the view is that we have different roles, and personalities etc, in some ways men will be superior, in some ways women. So to bring sources that only show one without the other and then conclude that men are better full stop is wrong and misleading. In many of your sources it actually does show where women are superior / men are obligated to women as well, and you only bring the male on top piece.

As far as my way of writing, I write what I’ve learned but don’t look up and list every source as that would take much more time and lengthen my posts very much. But if you ever ask me on something I say that you want the source, im happy to provide. I’m pretty sure I’ve written when I’ve inferred something on my own and challenged you to counter it by proving it isn’t in line with the seforim (you didn’t). Some is pure contextual logic and unless you counter it and show why it isn’t the case/ the logic isn’t sound,, there’s no reason to say that I didn’t address it properly.

Anyhow my main point is please think about the dangers of posting these kind of posts that aren’t in line with mainstream hashkafa and can cause the serious outcomes mentioned above (especially after its been brought up and discussed by you in so many threads already).

” It is for his losses, what he is giving up both Ruchniyus and Gashmius that hurts me.”

Of course. Torah and mitzvos gives us the best life possible. We are not missing out, they are. The lack of direction and morals in the world, sheva mitzvos bnei noach etc in the world today is depressing thousands of secular youth and destroying countless lives rachmana litzlan.

A male relative of mine, who married at 21, went jogging once with another young not yet frum young man, when he was helping out the shluchim on the campus. My relative was engaged at that point.

His jogging partner confided to him that “You’ll probably never understand me, but I don’t plan on getting married.”

My relative asked why.

The other young man responded that there is no trust and faithfulness nowadays, and young married women will commonly cheat with other men. So why should he commit to her, and all the finances etc that he would lose in event of divorce?

My relative responded that he completely understand and if that was the world he lived in, he wouldn’t get married either.

I also have a close relative who went off. In his case he really wants to come back he has just lost his self control. He is planning on saving up money to go to a BT Yeshiva program and marry a graduate of the girls program. He went off at 16 and is now 23.

It can take time. It can be a process. But this relative is happy to come home for Shabbos, and keep whatever family rules he needs to. His life plan is to marry that graduate at 25
things have taken him awhile as his brain was hijacked by drugs and the medication needed to avoid psychosis as a result. But it looks like he’ll head in the right direction iyh.there’s definitely hope. Keep the doors open and your son will eventually come back iyh. We have the richest life there is.

@Rafi bar
I remember another father whose child was going through this and he took it very hard. His Rav told him that every child has his path in this world – some need to go through certain phases as part of their journey. Your job and responsibility is not to ensure how your child turns out – that’s not in your hands. Your job is to do the best you can with the chinuch of your child – and if you have done that then you should not feel to blame over how the child turned out.

@slominer
If there was a sheva mitzvos bnei noach event, shelo asani goy would be an insensitive and definitely offensive song to play despite the bnei noach knowing that we have special mitzvos and even status in Hashem’s eyes. It would be really wrong and can’t imagine it giving Hashem any nachas to say the least.

The reason why these song exist is more celebrating the Jewish life and the meaning it gives us (like in the Yiddish one Avraham fried sings.)

Its not bad middos because we only play it at Jewish events and even with the goyim there, we assume they don’t understand Yiddish and Hebrew.(And in the rare exception s/he will understand that they werent meant to understand it so no offense was meant.)

Whereas men and women are one family unit. We are not different societies, like the Essenes were, nor are we meant to be. A Jewish life is family life where men and women share their lives together. As such, a song celebrating shelo asani isha would definitely be in bad taste and middos even though we know and are not offended by the actual Bracha and the fact our men say it.

*more rachamim (not raisins) from Hashem regarding the churban.

It really depends on why he went off. Generally nowadays is an emotional reason not an intellectual one (although to justify it after the fact they may seek intellectual reasons as well.) important to know the cause. If it was due to negative emotional experiences, then probably number one is not advisable as it implies, atop the baggage he already has, that you don’t care about HIM, but just about his frumkeit level. Generally, the way to bring them back is with love and unconditional acceptance (although that doesn’t mean accepting / encouraging their behaviour, and also doesn’t mean you can’t set rules for their behaviour in your house).

But really every child is an individual, and healing the cause of why they went off helps to bring them back.

Also every mitzvah they do / are happy to do with you, counts. It’s not all or nothing.

If any woman (or man) is bothered or offended by any of these posts, please let me know and I’ll answer. Otherwise I think I’ve addressed it on other threads.

@haimy Hashem created Adam as one male / female figure, and blessed them as Adam. Then He separated them.

The gemara learns from this that man is not called Adam and is incomplete until he is joined with his other half, woman.

Yes we have different roles which have different qualities and which are superior in some ways and inferior in others. But one is not inherently better than the other.

Aizer knegdo does not imply that she is beneath man inherently. If anything Knegdo implies she is there to keep him in check and together they reach balance.

Oy. Ladies I hope you are not offended. Anyone making denigrating belittling comments about women is simply using distortions of different mekoros and missing out on the core understanding of Torah hashkafa that learning pnimius HaTorah, as the Zohar terms it, the neshama of Torah, would provide.

It also seems that these mens wives have also possibly missed out on their education, because when a woman is educated with full hashkafa, not just be a good girl so the neighbours won’t chatter, she will clearly be the Rochel of her home, whose men clearly recognise that my Torah and your Torah belong to her. Women have always upheld the Yiddishkeit of the Jewish nation by encouraging their husbands to grow and imbuing their children with core values since they raised the Tzivos Hashem way back in Mitzrayim.

I could respond point by point or with fuller explanation but I think I already have on numerous threads so don’t see a point of repeating the same things unless someone has a specific point they want addressed. Feel free to link to the posts I have already written on men and women hashkafa wise on other threads.

There was a young woman of handicapped parents, who had had becone frum, who had dated a young man but was unsure if he was the one for her. So she made an appointment with the Rebbe to ask his opinion. The Rebbe asked her, “Do you like him?”

She gulped and replied that she had basic ahavas yisrael for him. The Rebbe smiled broadly and replied, “Far a mahn darf men hoben mer vi stam ahavas yisrael…”

That settled it for her and that settled it for me 🙂

Good luck with shidduchim!!

Based on my experience, it is important that the checklist should match with your level of yiras shomayim and good middos BUT it is equally important that once you date, you ENJOY spending time with the person and look forward to their companionship.

One person I dated was a match for me hashkafa wise, and I could think of no good reason to turn it down hashkafa wise so I thought I will probably marry him. I told the news to a close friend of mine, without mentioning names and she looked at me and said so why do you sound resigned? I don’t think that’s how you’re supposed to approach getting engaged. Bh bh he turned me down after the next date, because it was only after that that I realized, no. I shouldn’t spend my life making it work with someone I don’t really enjoy. Better to be single than have a depressed marriage. (Now that I’m actually married and see older girls who aren’t and how hard it is I would probably change that to better to be single LONGER, than endure such a marriage, but the point is the same…)

@syag hi I remember you said I offended you but I’m still not clear how and why, just that it was somewhere on a 19 page thread. So if you are still offended, id like to sort it now that I’m not being bombarded by hundreds of messages. Please let me know how I offended you so I can clarify matters and apologise if necessary. Thanks 🙂

Ksiva Vachasima Toiva lshana toiva umesuka

One last story that really impressed me in this area is this: a Rabbi once wrote to the Rebbe and asked him if he could compromise on the mechitza, because his congregation really wasn’t going for it and they were threatening him that if he refused to compromise on mechitza, then they will just replace him with a conservative Rabbi, so he thought maybe it’s worth compromising to avoid a greater loss for them.

The Rebbe responded that if he compromises on the mechitza than he will be the Conservative Rabbi…

@dovidbt

I don’t know every shliach – they each have to deal with each situation according to halacha and with tact- and they are trusted to do so on their own – there is no shliach manual that goes through every conceivable situation –

That being said, I know shluchim who for that reason don’t eat at anyone’s houses as a policy so they don’t get into sticky situations. Others will eat by mekuravim / completely frum ones, and in the case above, some will accept but make it very clear whats acceptable such as eating in Plastics, foods that would work like bagels and lox with acceptably hashgacha that are opened only after the Rabbi arrives

We invited an intermarried couple for Shabbos and they wanted to invite us back, but we explained the kashrus issues would be too complicated for a shabbos meal. They still wanted to host back so they ended up paying for a catered shabbos from a caterer I chose and they brought wine and pastries from a local acceptable bakery…