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My two cents:
Fact: guns kill more people more quickly than knivesFact: in countries such as the UK where guns are banned, terrorists kill by other means. Some, like cars can kill as many as guns
Feeling: its scarier to feel one may be stabbed than one may be shot. Stabbing is a more painful scarier way to die. (Not that any of the above should happen to anyone cvs. I’m not choosing between the two cvs.)
Fact: in Israel, many people have guns and there still arent the mass shootings now rampant in America
Fact: America wasnt always subject with rampant mass gun shootings.
Fact: moral standards have declined on an educational level in America
Conclusion: the problem and solution isn’t the guns or lack of funds(although common sense would dictate that whoever owns a gun should be heavily screened and cleared of any violent history etc). The problem is that in a self centered society, people are increasingly seeing nothing wrong with taking away human life. With G-d centered society, knowing that one will be answerable to G-d for his actions, even if he can fool the police, and that people are created in G-ds image, so it is wrong to casually kill people UNLIKE animals, society isn’t plagued with such issues. You don’t see it in Israel and you didn’t even see it in America when it was a place where family values were espoused and G-d was frequently mentioned by parents to their children.
So the solution isn’t the taking away of guns (although that may serve an urgent temporary stopgap to decrease the number of murdered) as the murderers will find another medium such as a knife or car.
The solution is in education – to talk about G-d more, respect for authotity etc.
Aye you may say that’s against the rules – well confiscating all guns would also require changing the rules and would not address the core issue. If we’re gonna fight to change the rules, maybe we should fight to change the ones that will bring across the most change?
@oyveyismear you can see the practical results in the different methods of chinuch (ie immersing youth in secular culture vs. giving them the highest standards of purity and kedusha possible.)
If anything, the proof is on you, the toien, to provide on how you see this approach, which had produced better results, is wrong.
As far as seeing an outright source in Torah is what I quoted about the tree sufficient? Or more stronger Torah thought? As I said I have some time now I’ll gladly write it up.
Fake maven thanks for your post (just read it properly). I don’t see where you contradict what I wrote other than rather tersely explaining (would love to see more detail) in what way a goy can relate to mimale kol olmin (which is what I wrote) and how he can’t (which I wasnt aware of and thus didn’t write.)
So just to clarify, if you think something I wrote is wrong, can you quote it and disprove it as I did in my post above?
Otherwise it seems you are just adding and differentiating further with reference to the difference between a goy and a yid.
I would also like to see more examples (Mivsari echeze…) of the practical difference between a goys yediah of Hashem, and a yids, based on a solely mimale level. It does seem goyim can relate to Hashem completely on this level. Otherwise, how do you explain noach, iyov and other righteous goyim who were granted some form of nevuah, were righteous people, and seemed able to feel G-dliness, not just acknowledge it. There also seem to be Noahides today so learn Chassidus and it resonates with them.
Maybe that’s the idea of chassidei umos haolam who have a different neshama than regular goyim as the Rebbe notes on perek aleph Tanya?
Regarding emuna, it seems we are saying the same thing in different words and I fail to see where you think I went wrong there. It does seem you have just misread my posts on the topic. Or maybe you don’t experience emuna as a feeling/ sense? But i would think that’s a misunderstanding on your part, as it definitely is a feeling, just one that is makkif and above logic, not below and influenced by logic…
Looking forward to seeing your response.
@mods I’m enjoying seeing how quickly my latest posts have gone through. Thanks for all your good work!
A good mashal I learned about this is that of a tree. Ki haadam etz hasade. A mature tree is tall and strong and can weather many storms. However the smallest scratch in the seed can damage the tree for life. So too, by sheltering our children when they’re still seeds, immersing them in a much life giving waters of kedusha as possible, this gives them the foundation so that when they’re older and do get exposed, they’re all the stronger and better able to weather their challenges.
In any case, I have looked up derech mitzvosecha myself, mitzvas haamonas Elokus, to respond to your quote below:
“Emunah is Sovev, by definition Sovev has NO connection to us (that we can feel) as the Rashab explains beautifully in Heshach 5772 part 1. ”
And I quote, page mem hei, line 18 ( exact translation, faster to type in English and cant / don’t know how to post a screen shot on here)
“And this concept is referred to as “Sovev kol olmin” in the Zohar, that regarding this (sovev -ed), is the mitzvah of belief. But regarding the level of mimale kol olmin, the term emuna doesn’t apply to it. Rather, as it is written, “Mivsari echeze Eloka,” (from my flesh, ie own experience, I envision Hashem), I can actually envision it, although we cannot see Him with physical vision, nevertheless, its as if we can actually see the concept of how Hashem enlivens all worlds, because seeing with the minds eye can be with the same certainty as physical sight.”As the Tzemach Tzedek clearly states, we can relate to sovev through emuna (which is our koach hamakif), and not only that, but that is the only level where emuna should be applicable…
Maybe you misunderstood what I wrote before . non any case, here’s the source.
Shame it hasn’t been approved, hopefully it will soon. I was looking forward to a learned discussion and learning new things 🙂
Thanks DY. I was wondering if conjugation was the right word to use for hekesh. Still not sure from your answer but thanks for defining it :).
Fakemaven you have not yet responded. Looking forward to seeing it
The fake maven:
I was including both actually. I haven’t finished shoresh mitzvas hatefilla (its really long for those who are unaware I mean like 50+ pages) but have started a few times.As I wrote (just didn’t use the terms mimale and sovev) our appreciation of Hashem on a kochos level only reaches to atzilus ie mimale. However emuna which derives from chaya and is not one of the eser kochos hanefesh, relates to sovev, which is makif but still related to mimale, otherwise wouldn’t even be makif.
We can relate even to atzmus through the koach of mesiras nefesh, where we cannot separate ourselves from Hashem which shows we are one, but I didn’t detail that above.
In any case, I’ll admit I have not yet learned the hemshechim of the Rebbe Rashab. I would love to do that sometime. Please quote where you felt I misunderstood / am wrong, and prove it by writing up how the Rebbe Rashab contradicts what I said, (as I did with derech mitzvosecha instead of simply saying go look it up yourself.)
It does seem you may have misread my posts. I would love to be corrected if I’m wrong. Thanks.
I think how this is even hinted at all, is because in the phrase “Ma rabu maasecha Hashem, kulam bchochma asisa ” hiskalta could have replaced asisa, as by kulam we are anyway referencing the maasecha, and it would fit better linguisticly
DY I know there is the pshat of the posuk. Note I used the word hint. However, chachmei hakabala have seen this posuk also expresses a deeper truth which is as noted above- that the hekesh(conjugation?) of chochma to asiya denotes that to Hashem, the loftiest chochma is equal to physical action…
Post 5:
In case anyone was wondering, women usually care about practical things and I am not an exception. Why is all of this very clear to me?
Because we were learning in class about Hashem and how all the Sefiros etc are only applicable to the world of atzilus. After that, any description is a limitation. At some point, perhaps above kesser, Even saying He is unlimited is a limitation – He cannot be limited…
Thinking about this I got very upset. I realized that based on this, all the davening and personal relationship, appreciation for hashgacha protis and personal miracles etc, are all limited to a superficial (relatively speaking) and that means that I can only relate to Hashem on a superficial level, but we can’t be intimate on a core level. That got me really upset and I burst into tears. Eventually, thinking about it, I realized that that’s where emuna comes in, and that’s how we relate to Hashem on a higher more intimate level as well. At that. I calmed down.
By hp a few days later. I learned this idea in derech mitzvosecha when the Tzemach Tzedek was discussing the difference between the mitzvos of yedias and Emunas Hashem as explained above
Part 4:
Something else that has been brought up in this thread is if Hashem isn’t defined by chessed etc how do we matter to His essence which isn’t defined by giving etc whether it is for Him or for us?This question really at its core expresses: how much does Hashem really care for us and to what point do we really matter? If it’s a matter of giving, it would seem that at His essence He could care less about us, but once He lowers Himself to deal with the world, at that point (from atzilus onwards, ie from the point of the created sefiros) then what we do matters.
There is a posuk that expresses how our actions, whether mitzvos or aveiros, only reach so far. “V’im tzodakta, ma titen Lo?” Like at some point, who cares?
Kind of like the principal who sternly lectures the talmid for coming late and compliments the one who comes on time. This is very important for the talmids development : if the principal would show that in essence he could care less, or even more confusingly, one day yell at the Talmid for coming late, and the next day reward him for it, this would be very bad for the talmids development. So the principal has to show that it matters. However, at his core, the principal could really care less. He has loftier concerns on his mind.
But this would mean that all our hard work in Avodas Hashem, all our sacrifices, and really our very existence, only matter to a certain point, but at His core, he could care less cvs.
Luckily this is not the case. Hashem chose, with His Ultimate bechira chofshis, that He desires to care about us. And that we matter, all the way up. Our being matters. Because He chose so.
He chose with His bechira that He’s gonna get the ultimate enjoyment out of our victories and ultimate victory over evil. As the medrash says, “Nisave Lo Hkbh liyos Lo Yisbarech dira bitachtonim.
He chose us down here. Not the angels or all the higher spiritual realms. But us down here, that’s what matters.
Part 3:
I forgot to add that these two different ways of relating to Hashem are actually two different mitzvos:Mitzva 1 is to know Hashem – this is accomplished by thinking about Hashem’s Greatness in ways we can relate to based on our experience of our own chochma chessed etc. (You can only understand our relate to something within your experience. For example you can imagine an elephant in a subway because you know what the two are even though you haven’t seen both together. However someone who has never seen either can’t imagine both together.)
We use our knowledge of Hashem, which we only know by learning about it, to create love and fear of Him, another two mitzvos. Incidentally, these mitzvos are part of the 6 constant mitzvos which apply to women as well. Hence women have an obligation to try to understand as much as possible about Hashem to be able to love and fear Him.
The other mitzva is Believing in Hashem – separate mitzvah. This relates to what we can’t understand.
Interestingly, the Tzemach Tzedek points out that the more we learn about Hashem, the more we understand, and the more we realise what there is that we can’t understand. Ie we take things that were previously in the realm of emuna and now we understand it because we learned and thought about it. So now our yedias Hashem is greater, and our Emunas Hashem jumps to the next level.
OK I’m done. Hope to see the five posts approved soon (preferably in order ;)) and looking forward to follow up 🙂
Part 2: (many times my later post gets posted before my first one.)
If we could only relate to Hashem through the mediums of chessed. Like trying to be kind as He is kind (although here too there is a vast difference as His chessed is unlimited and ours is limited, but at least it’s a defined midda we have so we can relate to the idea and also know what’s right and wrong and how to grow), chochma etc, as we do in davening, thanking Hashem for His kindness, praising Him by limited attributes that we can appreciate, and asking His help in mundane really insignificant matters that matter to us, we would have a pretty shallow relationship looking at things from a broader perspective where all the Sefiros for Hashem, are just as low as action. (Whereas by us, intellect is the loftiest expression and capacity we have, and action is the lowest, by Hashem they are both equally low as is hinted to in the posuk “kulam bchochma asisa” where chochma is described as physical action.)
Luckily we have another way of relating to Hashem that He granted us (goyim don’t have this) which is our inborn emuna which believes and relates to Hashem even where we don’t understand and can have no comprehension, where darkness is light and He can combine two extremes that make no sense together etc.
(Goyim can appreciate and relate to Hashem based on logical observation of the wonders of nature etc. which is the first level described above. The name or description Hashem goes by for this is Elokim – which is the same gematria as Hateva. The higher level that we relate to solely through emuna, Hashem uses the name Hevaya for, “Shabbos Hayom laHevaya” the idea of shabbos and miracles and only yidden relate to this.)
The Tzemach Tzedek in derech mitzvosecha addresses these subjects at length. I can write a bit up that i think may dispel a bit of the confusion and feel free to ask on whatever point of contention remains (im not really seeing any one clear question):
Hashem is One simple essence, Who expresses Himself to His creations through different mediums He created
in order for us to relate to Him. These are the ten sefiros of chochma bina daas chessed gevura tiferes etc.By using these mediums to relate to us, we in turn are able to grow spiritually as He implanted in us the same 10 soul powers. Thus we can fulfill the mitzva of “lhidamos lo” as the Rambam states, “Ma Hu rachum af ata thei rachum” etc. Hashem shows us throughout the Torah “Personal” examples of how to refine ourselves, such as visiting the sick, and seeing the situation up close before passing judgment, to quote a few examples in recent parshas.
We can also call Him rachum and chanun etc even though He, at His essence is not defined or limited by either, because it is He Himself, His essence, expressing itself through the midda of chessed or gevura etc.
Just as it’s the same light coming through glass stained windows, although you perceive it in different colours.
To be continued