CS

Mods I appreciate the edits!

“CS: So if a Chabad Shulcha regularly goes shopping in non tznius clothing, they’d be no consequences and she’d be allowed to continue representing Lubavitch? What if she regularly ate in public chicken-and-cheese sandwiches? There’s no explicit lav against eating chicken-and-cheese. What if she regularly drove to her Chabad House on Shabbos?”

Within Chabad, there is a lot of trust given to individuals. If that trust is broken, there can be severe consequences for the individuals involved, no matter their status (I saw such a communal correction myself). But yes, unfortunately some of my non lubavitch friends tell me how they’ve been to shluchim all over the world, and how one was not ok (yes the vast vast majority are yereim ushleimim in any way.) I don’t know the individuals involved, but if I ever saw something that was a serious breach, I’d go to the head shluchim about it, as each shliach is answerable to their head shliach.

“Where are you drawing the line? Why a bathing suit no but a short dress TMI in public when she sits, walks, edited or perhaps even when she walks has no repercussions regarding her representing Chabad?”

Ultimately we all represent our communities, and there are over 5000 shluchim and if you look percentage wise, that will speak for itself positively and when I ask these individuals, they admit that the vast vast majority are admirable in every way. Each shliach is busy doing their own work and aren’t busy policing others. But like I said, if something egregious were witnessed, I would certainly want to talk to the head shliach.

Ujm:

“Are you trying to say that violating Tznius is not as bad as violating Shabbos? Do you agree that both are equally bad?”

Not sure where this is going. I would think shabbos is worse, firstly punishment wise, and also it’s one of the three to be considered frum, basic frum. Someone who wears pants but keeps shabbos, kashrus and taharas hamishpacha is frum no? At least in a basic sense.

If she dresses tznius but is mechallel shabbos no.

Of course, according to Chassidus, every aveira is equally against Hashems ratzon, and also completely separates one from Hashem while actually doing it. But regarding that aspect, everything is equal

MS
Thanks for the chofetz chaim

Yb
“The only way forward , if so , is for the habad rabbinic leadership to open up a no holds barred discussion of their leaders personality.
How , even a great person , who had a lot to offer [in his hasidim’s eyes], is not infallible .…”

Have you ever seen the Rambam describe the Mitzvah of Respecting Talmidei Chachamim? How if someone rebels against his Rebbe he’s rebelling against Hashem? How about rashi- even if they (leaders) say that right I’d let/ left is right, follow them…

Why don’t you look up those two and then come back to what the mesora is?

Arso,

“Honestly?! Lovely that you judge yourselves favorably. That way you will always consider your way successful no matter how many children of shluchim and others go off.

Am I the only one here who finds it frustrating to be arguing with someone who seems to be living in a virtual (un)reality?”

But honestly I meant that the ones who go off don’t hide it with frum clothing. And therefore because secrecy isn’ta culture by us, people can always reach out for help openly

Let me say though, I love seeing little chassidish children who have an air of innocence around them (sorry litvish nothing personal- I haven’t lived/ interacted in the yeshivish crowd yet.)

Like I’m proud to bring my children on mivtzoim etc. and am proud of my derech, but that doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate the innocent culture that the Chassidish community promotes.

Arso,

“Does the worker have to DEMAND his wages, or does it suffice if he merely asks (nicely) for them?”

Honestly I’d need to see the exact lashon. I remember it quoted on this topic of demanding- would love to see the source

Arso,

“ You find it funny, but it find the above very sad. In ALL the seforim avodas habirurim is what is required since sheviras hakeilim, and when that is finished Mashiach arrives IMMEDIATELY. (Surprise, surprise! You can find all this on our erstwhile friend chabadpedia.) Yet your source – the LR, right? – says that we’ve finished avodas habirurim, and the fact that Mashiach hasn’t come yet means that Hashem is (c”v) doing something that doesn’t make sense. I suggest that it’s not c”v Hashem who doesn’t make sense. Rather it’s the one who purported that we have finished avodas habirurim!

Is it any wonder that we look at some of the statements made by the LR and are unsure whether they border on apikorsus?”

Again which sefarim all discuss this? Chabad? Other? Names?

The Rebbe said that Avodas haBirurim is finished because he knew what he was talking about. He said at the same time that it should not make sense, that it must be that what Hashem wants of us now is to switch to the avoda of Welcoming Moshiach. According to the Rambam, the early Yemos HaMoshiach start in golus. What does it mean to welcome moshiach?

A) to live your life as ready for moshiach to come any min. Say Hashem would declare Pesach any min, The readiness you’d have a as far as a chometz free house etc. so too, living with moshiach awareness means taking on and living with all the hachlotos you would want to do if you knew he’s coming now.

B) spreading Moshiach awareness by learning Inyonei Moshiach and geula. For the not frum- just learning about what geula is and how to await it today. For the frum already- making it top in mind and lived with. For those interested, one may tell who Moshiach is, as this gives clarity on how to ready the world…

Todays Tanya says the geula is an outgrowth of the work we put in in golus. The Rebbe saw that this concept extends to actually bringing the era here by helping people to live and want it, happen naturally in that way…

Avira,

“ It’s halacha lemaaseh because the Rambam writes it in Mishne Torah, just as the rules for Mashiach are halacha lemaaseh because the Rambam writes them in Mishne Torah. That was always the official Lubavich line. Oh, I forgot. We pick and choose…

Btw, I especially liked “I’m going to leave it at that.” How nice of you.”

Moshiach is Halacha lmaase today, because the shulchan aruch etc. don’t discuss moshiach Halachos, only ones relevant in golus. Could be Nevuah falls under this category too. My point is simply that lubavitch never bright this aspect out so as I don’t feel sufficiently educated to address it, and it’s not lubavitch who is speaking of misa bidei shomayim etc. I’ll leave it for now. Anyone who is learned on our end and can look into it is welcome to.

Hi just popping in to say hi and haven’t forgotten this thread. BH been very busy with many things. Also just a shout out regarding filters- we just installed on the laptop and on my phone, and really enjoying the updated filter experience. The old ones we had (k-9, iPhone) basically blocked everything but a list of individual sites- which didn’t work for me, or nothing but “adult content” sites. So we had the latter. But the new filters are much more customized and I’m really happy they exist and we have them.

Just a note. I’m up to page ten when I start responding. In case I don’t get to it before hand, wishing you all a happy Purim.

Just to respond to the part about Chabad putting down misnagdim:

Firstly, as I’ve been told many times, the Frierdiker Rebbe already said that there are no true misnagdim today. If someone puts down an individual or group of people derogatorily, it’s not coming from Chassidus, it’s coming from that person’s yetzer hara.

That said, we definitely can discuss ideology and the pluses and minuses that result. So, in high school on a Shabbaton one time, I learned a song which displays the difference between amisnagdishe and Chassidishe mindset.

As said there are no true misnagdim today, and obviously not every individual who doesn’t learn Chassidus ends up this way, but this song is discussing what can happen when one lacks what Chassidus gives. As well, The Chassidus mindset part of the song, is what Chassidus expresses, but it doesn’t mean we’re all holding there.

This was one occurrence in my entire education. I actually enjoy the song, as it reminds me of what we’re aspiring to.

There’s also one joke I enjoy- again because it’s about ideology- not anyone in particular.

But in general within Chabad, the stress is on ahavas Yisrael to every yid no matter who or where they’re holding, and I would hope that is what you would feel coming into contact with a Lubavitcher, whether on shlichus or in general.

let’s just say my deletions tell a different story

Gadolhadofi

“ It’s only getting worse as the decades pass so until the Rabbinic leadership puts a full halt to it, all the justifications and arguments in the world won’t make it any more palatable.”

I’m sorry this bothers you, but meshichism can never be shut down, as what the Rabbonim think hashkafically cannot override the clear printed sichos of the Rebbe, and nobody would make himself look so stupid as to say anything in that direction.

Arso,

“ “Peilisher chassidim” and their beliefs are something invented by Lubavich, so that Lubavich can say, “We are much better.” I know of no “Peilisher chassidim” who have ever said that the Rebbe is the one who does all the work!”

Apparently you’re ignorant of the very early disagreement between the Alter Rebbe and his peers on the meaning of צדיק באמונתו יחי׳ה.

He held that every chossid could do the work applying the tools given by The Rebbe, and they held that you had to keep up your inspiration by regular visits to the Rebbe to sustain it- ie the life comes from the Rebbe in a makkif way.

Arso,

“ No. We frum people do lots of aveiros, at least I do, Rachmono litzlon, but we do not ‘abandon’ even one of them. We are nichshal and hope to be better. If someone, on the other hand, marries a shiksa, he is abandoning a mitzva, not just being nichshal.”

There are plenty of frum people who aren’t honest in business for example, and don’t look to get better. Or do what they’re used to in regards to shabbos or tznius/ shmiras einayim etc. many people live within their comfort zone. Let’s not kid ourselves.

Arso,

“ That has always bothered me. If ALL the sparks have been elevated, then Mashiach should have come. I know the LR said that it therefore makes absolutely no sense that Mashiach hasn’t come, but to me, and those with whom I have discussed it, that sounds like nonsense at the very least, and apikorsus at the very worst.”

I find this funny. Where in nigle/ other kreizen do you find Avodas habirurim discussed at length that you repudiate the source it comes from?

Yes within Lubavitch, a Rebbes means that he is capable of telling us where we are holding now. Obviously, a regular person cannot do this which is one reason why the notion of lubavitch just replacing their Rebbe with a respected mashpia is ridiculous.

The Rebbe told us that our avoda has completely shifted from Avodas habirurim(which is now finished), to the avoda of welcoming Moshiach. And that every Mitzvah we do should be through the lens of bringing about the revelation of geula. I could explain this further if you desire

HaLeivi,

“ CS, I must say, something is very odd. Lubavitch has spoken this talk in earlier years, how Peilischer Chasidim make it all about the Rebbe but in Lubavitch the Chasidim do the work and the Rebbe is just the teacher.

But now you have the whole Chasidus more Rebbe-centric than anyone else. And you constantly hear about his greatness and status. But if you’re putting him up there—way more than Peilischer Chasidim—how can you also say that his influence is limited?

Which is it?”

Great question:). I think it’s unfortunate that Chabad is known for being Rebbe centric- because of how it reflects on other groups. We regard The Rebbe and his word as kodesh kodoshim, and that is both a natural outcome of relating to a Rebbe of our Rebbes caliber, and also a result of the Rebbes tremendous hiskashrus to the Frierdiker Rebbe, and farbrengens about hiskashrus to the FR, both before he undertook the nesius and the year afterwards. But within that same time period, in the opening maamar of The Rebbe, he emphasized that he’s only there to assist us and we need to do our own work.

I think it used to be quite common that when any Rebbe of any kreiz instructed any chossid, it would be viewed the same way. Unfortunately, it seems in other kreizen , maybe not all, but based on the people I’ve met and interacted with on this, they see the Rebbe as someone to admire, but they can tell he isn’t say, a tzadik of Tanya.

So for example, when someone asked Rav Lau why he associates with crazy lubavitch, he asked the fellow what he would do if his Rosh Yeshiva asked him to go to a forsaken place to spread Yiddishkeit. The fellow said he would ask about chinuch? Mikvah? Local kosher stores? Etc. Rav Lau responded none and again asked what he would say. The fellow answered he would tell his Rosh Yeshiva to go himself!

In Chabad, we know that the Rebbe was connected above in a way different than the average. There was clear ruach hakodesh/ mind reading etc on a regular basis. And therefore if he asks me to go on shlichus, or not to go (sometimes harder), that this is my personal mission in this world from Hashem, spoken through the Rebbe.

So because of the awe this generates, unfortunately we have this name of being Rebbe centric, when really this is exactly how the Rambam describes how one should treat his Rebbe.

Yet, the Rebbe can give treasures of sichos on how to live in a mindset and lifestyle ready for geula, and how to prepare the world etc. All very clear. But if I don’t take that and implement it, The mission isn’t happening and all the Rebbes efforts are cvs להבל ולריק.

Of course, The Rebbe set tremendously high goals and standards and not everyone has found their way there yet. But they know that it’s not the Rebbes issue, the Rebbes words are as relevant as ever, but they’re not holding there yet Mitzad their Nefesh habehamis etc.

Hope this clarifies.

disclaimer: apologies to those whose kavod to their rav were misrepresented

Avira, coffee addict
“Cs – i can only imagine what was edited out if you actually wrote that people who are not chasidish “care in general less about yiddishkeit” – if by yiddishkeit you mean cultish messianic hysteria over a deceased rabbi, then you’re right, but that applies to every branch of chasidus besides Lubavitch too.
If you want to see non-chasidish jews caring about yiddishkeit; where was Lubavitch in the city field event, where klal yisroel came together in all of its stripes to acknowledge and accept on themselves to not use unfiltered internet? Where is Lubavitch in the siyum hashas every 7 years, when klal yisroel celebrates its cherished Torah and their completion of the gemara? Where is Lubavitch kollelim, where idealistic young families sacrifice a life of material success to be davuk in Hashem and His Torah day and night, not just as a means of becoming a missionary in Hawaii?
Klal yisroel cares about Torah. They do not, however, care about personality cults.”

Sorry the word Chassidish can mean two things and I see it was confused. Within lubavitch, Chassidish is like what yeshivish is to litvish. I was saying that those within lubavitch who don’t care to strive to be Chassidish will not have passion about many things, this included. That’s what I was referring to. And the only things edited out were the names of two podcasts by lubavitch youth today, with moshiach passion. Not sure why they were edited out- there were no links.

In Chabad we learn to focus on ourselves and only see positive in others (unless we need to be mechanech.)

ברכנו אבינו כולנו כאחד

When do we receive Hashem’s brachos? Only when we are United with others.

Why do we (in Chabad) start with hareini? If I don’t Love every single Jew, my davening cannot draw down any brachos, because I’m a broken vessel.

A yid can find all kinds of reasons why something not good happens to himself, but to excuse others pain? Unacceptable.

Avira,

“ One should not feel that they are frum if they abandon mitzvos, even one of them. You can show love to distant, sinful jews – whether they’re tinknos shenishbu or not – without bringing the mess into klal yisroel.”

So you keep all the mitzvos perfectly? You never fail at even one of hilchos shabbos? Shmiras einayim? Lashon hara? Etc etc?

Just yesterday I saw in Rambam that (at least in his time) if someone makes a shvuah inappropriately with Hashem’s name or kinui, he should place him under nidui privately for chillul Hashem, but remove it immediately so as not to cause others to stumble as they don’t know about the nidui. And why not make it public? Because then there are be no community as everyone will be ostracized….

Arso
The Rebbe shared what was close to his heart and urged them to do so (not sure why printing/ sharing Torah would be against mesora- this phrase is sounding overused), but they were free to do what they wished with it. The Rebbe also demanded of Chassidim, (the Rebbe spoke on tznius too btw), but ultimately it’s a chossid led movement in both deciding who the Rebbe is, and b) having the space to implement what we can of The Rebbes endless heights of expectations, without being excluded from the community.

Arso,

“ I don’t think so. That would imply that all the other gedolei olam were only tznius when they were in company, and that is being motzi shem ra on all of them. I believe Shaul and Kimchis were singled out because they went above the letter of the law.”

What I’ve learned, and am implying is that a true sense of tznius is am exactly that, a sense of yiras shomayim, and you know it most when it’s kept even in the bathroom, even in the desert, and even when no one is home. Obviously, kimchis dressed 💯 tznius and so did Shaul. Those were outcomes though, not the definition.

Micha says הצנע לכת עם אלוקיך, not one specific act, but a mode of life of being aware of Hashem’s presence at all times (which will obviously manifest publicly too).

Arso,

“ That is one way it happens, although they don’t quote the Rambam. Another is when I pass a tefillin booth or similar, and the Lubavicher manning it apparently wants to make an impression on the people with him, so he calls out to me – an obviously chassidic non-Lubavitch type – and makes a comment ‘demonstrating’ how he and his cohorts are better than us lesser Yidden.

I have NEVER been the one to start the ‘altercation’.”

Interesting. Not in my experience, or knowledge of communal affairs. Maybe you’re by one of the 3 or so Meshichist yeshivos in America.

CA

“And this is why it’s a shame you don’t have a live rebbe because he’s not around to tell you what to do so your chassidus can’t fix it because he didn’t tell you to

על אלה אנחנו בוכי׳”

Ironically this is exactly the point. The Rebbe told us all the sparks have been elevated already, and Moshiach has been appointed and has already started his tasks. By the responsibility for bringing the geula here lies on the nation.

Basically he cannot complete his task without us. Which is a big chiddush.

In the times of Moshiach, we ask Hashem daily to return our Judges and advisors. Judges to pasken Halacha and advisors to help you get there personally (mashpia). Note that there is no request for policeman. We will not need policeman when Moshiach comes, because our whole interest will be לדעת את הוי׳.

The Rebbe taught that Geula is a gradual process that we bring through our avoda in golus.

Therefore, if you will only do what you should due to external communal pressure/ Halacha policeman etc., you are not ready for geula! Or should I say, you are not living in a geula mind space/ life style.

And we have been tasked with this mission- to live Yiddishkeit inside out. Appointing a personal Rav and Mashpia and consulting with them because you care.

Is it easy as a community? No. Is everyone under the name Chabad achieving this? No, not yet. Is this necessary, and the order of the day? 💯

Arso,

“ There are only two types of nevi’im. 1. The navi to whom all the laws of a navi apply, including, as yb mentioned, someone being chayav misa bidei Shamayim if he doesn’t obey the navi, and 2. A navi sheker.

You can’t have “half-a-Navi” which is stronger than ruach hakodesh but not quite the full nevuah.”

Yes I’m not saying the Rebbe was a half Navi, what I’m saying is, if I proclaim I have Nevuah, and say it was true, you wouldn’t be chayav misa for doubting me- it would need some sort of Rabbinic seal of approval. Which the Rebbe never sought, probably for this very reason- so it would stay motivational and not threat heavy

Arso,

“But you could have just let the thread stay dead.”

I think this is a misunderstanding. I’m not at all embarrassed of anything The Rebbe said or taught, and my personal views. But, like many Lubavitchers, I’m not looking to start a conversation on the Rebbe as Moshiach because: a) maybe I joined a thread for a different topic and am interested in hearing from others on that one, and most importantly b) there are a number of perquisites I would want a person to have before getting into this topic, which lubavitch itself hardly discusses openly:

1) keeping Torah and mitzvos and knowing how. 2) having a passion and (also through) education about the time period of Geula in general 3) having a passion for Moshiach as a person- only then would this become relevant.

Since this is even less common outside lubavitch than within lubavitch (2 and 3), The number of times I’ve discussed it in person with non Lubavitchers I think is 0.

But if you’re (collectively) starting the conversation, even sarcastically, by all means- we have what to talk about.

Arso,

“I denigrated the BTs?! I don’t remember doing that! I keep saying that it’s the kids of shluchim, and a number of shluchim themselves, who I am complaining.”

I’m glad you didn’t mean anything against bts. You’ve written several posts implying that what you see as Chabads problems today, are due to bts, so I wanted to clarify this is really not the case.

“I have close relatives who run a Chabad house – official shluchim, not mushrooms (yankel berel et al, have you heard that term?) – and who regulary post pictures of what goes on in their institution. Forget the (not-yet-)BTs who are there and are doing what they are doing, although in my humble opinion there’s no need to post pictures of that, I’m talking about the shluchim themselves. Shomu Shamayim! Because of tznius issues I won’t elaborate!”

Interesting. Why did your relatives become lubavitch? I’m closely acquainted with a family who helps and helped many people learn Chassidus, and become lubavitch (doesn’t need to be both, there are many that just do the former), and all the ones I know keep the highest standards for themselves and bH have beautiful families. They were looking for something more when they came to lubavitch, not less, and we’ve spoken about it in many conversations. So I’m just curious what your relatives story is: did they go off and come back through lubavitch? Or what?

About your insinuation of shluchim- there are thousands of shluchim, I’d say most uphold the highest standards as befits what they do, some started off as less, and give their communities what they have. One shlucha spoke to us in high school and shared how she always struggled with tznius, and ultimately turned around when her college students on campus respectfully asked why she wasn’t dressed the part of the Rebbetzin she was to them. She got the message and dresses completely tznius today bH. Shluchim were never sent as only the top 10% of lubavitch, many freilach kids who gave their teachers a hard time went on shlichus. Of course you can only give what you have, but I’d say shlichus is a win win in these cases because your on a path that encourages growth, and you’re anyway going to have what to share. When I occasionally do see shluchim who aren’t up to par with standards, I’m happy for them that they still chose shlichus. Imagine where they’d be if they weren’t…

Arso,

“Shaul Hamelech and Kimchis were called tznuim because they went over and above what was required lehalacha.”

They were called tznuim because they were tznius when only Hashem was around…