CS

Username post 2:
“There was never a Shvil for the Frierdiker Rebbe.”

Agreed. I think it’s a shtus, bittul Torah and misses the whole point of gimmel tammuz TBH. But as far as I know, very few people engage in that. Like just some bochurim from one extreme right wing Yeshiva in Israel so that’s not mainstream at all. Like at all.

“The Rebbe used the title “Ziya” (which is the conventional title in Lubavitch to a Rebbe who passed away) on every single sefer of the Frierdiker Rebbe and in every Maamar where he referenced the Frierdiker Rebbe.”

True, but many or most chassidim feel uncomfortable using it by the Rebbe, because the Frierdiker Rebbe lived on through the Rebbe while the Rebbe is still our Rebbe and has not passed on from us in any sense (like the way the Rebbe felt in tof shin yud before he accepted the nesius.) but both shittos have what to rely on.

“…And this Shimush comes from being around Elter Chossidim and Rabbonim, and actually being Mekabel from them.”

Agreed. And that’s why both “antis” “mainstream” and “far right” are all chassidim because they do the above.

“And Aguch, the official group of Luabvitch Elter Chossidim decided right after 3 Tammuz that Lubavitch is Anti.”

They are not the official group of lubavitch eltere chassidim. There was never such a thing. Where did you pull that one from? They are the face of institutional lubavitch.

Username:

“I’ll disagree with out on that.”

Didn’t you just join the CR? I’ve been here for almost two years now. By understand it doesn’t mean I have too agree to everything anyone says. But for myself, I know who to take seriously if they are alarmed by something I say, who I should be alarmed by if they think I said something “good and normal”, who tends to overreact, whose clueless, who’s unreasonable, who’s just coming from a different mindset etc. So it helps me to have a more productive conversation without running away or shutting it down… Any I think that’s a good thing.

Username:

“So can you find me a source that this is happening now? You won’t be able to, because since 27 Adar 1 5752, there were no Sichos. So obviously there’s no explicit “this is how you should behave now”, and there were no revelations to Elter Chassidim (who were raui to receive Ruach HaKodesh), we have no reason to assume that that’s happening.”

Agreed. I don’t think the Rabbeinu HaKadosh theory is true because otherwise wed be hearing of Rebbe sightings every week. As far as a source that the Rebbe is alive, see the famous shmos chov vov sicha. And so the mainstream take the aliveness as I explained above.

“The only thing we have is a Tzavaah, Aguch’s decisions, and the Rebbe’s behavior after 5710, where the Rebbe said Kaddish for the Frierdiker Rebbe.”

And where the Rebbe also said that the Frierdiker Rebbe is exactly with us just like before and if you say he was nistalek you are a pere Adam a vilde mentch etc. We also don’t only have aguch. As far as I know aguch gets to decide institutional things like who’s under merkos etc. But as far as who is lubavitch and what’s right and wrong? For that you go to your Rav and Mashpia, most of whom are not anti.

“The Rebbe instituted the Minhagei Yartzeit for the Frierdiker Rebbe.”

Yeah so we all (as in mainstream) go to the Rebbe for gimmel tammuz.

You left a long post. TBC

Rso
“Yes, a lot of people are like that. But with lubavicher shechitah the rule is that our shochtim are yirei shamayim because they learn chassidus, so the fact that some of them go to places that no frum Yid should go to etc (I don’t want to elaborate in detail, but I KNOW facts) is irrelevant. The other shochtim don’t learn chassidus so they have less yiras shamayim.”

Na that’s not true. If we have a choice between someone who isn’t fit to be a shochet or someone who doesn’t learn Chassidus (btw learning Chassidus doesn’t have to be a luv) we would either go for the second one or go without the meat altogether.

The whole thing of learning Chassidus is that shechita in general is an awesome responsibility and there are many things that can go wrong. The Rebbe said something to the effect of that if someone learns Chassidus, the Rebbe takes responsibility that it will all go well. That doesn’t mean you keep on a shochet who is unfit to be a shochet.

I think There was also a story with one of the previous Rebbeim who were asked if the chassidim could eat the shechita of a German shochet who didn’t have a beard. The Rebbe said that they could because in the German cities, the lack of a beard was not an indicator of less yiras shomayim. Although for a lubavitcher, they would not eat from his shechita if he even trimmed.

YR
“CS – it was on the Beis Moshiach article that TOI referenced. Google my quotes in quotes, it’ll pop up.

Now are you prepared to defend Wolf? Because he said everything I quoted.”

That’s not what you said in your original post. You said it was from his speech (implying the speech I posted). I will look it up and get back to you. But from what I’ve seen of him, he’s pretty good so yeah. I’ll get back to you.

“Also – quote from CS
“my husband and I were discussing how by hashgacha protis, there’s a new spirit sweeping the world- one against cover up, political correctness and fake news culture, and how its going to help towards getting the world ready for moshiach…. ”
According to Wolf, the Rebbe sent the spirit for this very purpose. Are you married to him? And if not, do you agree with him?”

Yes I agree with him. And he got that from the Rebbe btw who said that we should look out for signs of Geula in the world because the process is unfolding. But I thought that one was my, or should I say my husbands original. No I certainly am not married to him. That would be pretty strange as I’ve posted several times I was born the year of gimmel tammuz.

Toi the following should have been addressed to username and Co

“@CS- The rebbe’s hanhogo towards the frierdiker rebbe after death is extremely worrisome- his sichas that concern him are scary, and one cannot but wonder if he wasn’t setting it up so he’d be related to like that, too.”

DY continued:

As far as Yaakov Avinu lo mes- the tosfos (if I’m not mistaken) on the gemara questioning how could that be if the Torah itself testifies that Yaakov was not only not alive but even enbalmed and eulogized etc? So what does lo mes mean?

So the Tosfos explains that when chushim chopped off Esavs head, Yaakov avinu opened his eyes and smiled.

But he was not alive! His blood had even been drained etc. How could that be?

So the Rebbe explains that even though the technical terms of life had ceased ie, his heart had stopped beating etc. He was still physically alive to the point that he could open his eyes at will.

—————–

Also we see the way the Rebbe treated the Frierdiker Rebbe – on the one hand the Rebbe (the year after the Frierdiker Rebbes histalkus) directed chassidim to bring their panim to the Frierdiker Rebbe and said he’s with us just like before with no difference. The Rebbe even said that if someone says the Frierdiker Rebbe has passed on he is a pere Adam a vilde mentch!!

On the other hand, the Rebbe said kaddish (obviously because that’s halacha), commemorated the yahrtzeit, and visited the ohel very often.

So mainstream treats the Rebbe alive in the above ways. Not in a way that would contradict halacha (obviously). I’m sure if Yaakov Avinus wives were still alive, they’d also be allowed to remarry. But nevertheless he was still alive in a certain sense.

Now if you want to know why the shtick about being alive that’s another story…

Username:

“Oh, and PS. Rabbi Wolf is not an official Shliach.”

Without addressing point by point the rest of what you said in that post, suffice to say that there are different ways to define meshichistim and I was not referring to the extreme right as you defined them… But I found Rabbi wolf’s centre and his name listed on Chabad.org, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought Chabad.org only carries official shluchim.

SH
“Wolf is not mainstream at all. Even though CS may think he is, or respect him.”

I think he’s normal but he gets very enthusiastic when he speaks and yeah if you cherry pick his words you’ll find things that sound extreme (YR are you just skipping around his speeches to find quotes to post here? You obviously haven’t heard the one I posted to listen to above – must’ve been too normal so boring.)

The same would apply to the Rebbe too sechel Im sure you know that. I don’t know why you feel forced to apologise when someone quotes a fiery half sentence out of a speech – you think the Rebbe saying 770 is the gematria of beis moshiach sounds so normal?

Anyhow I would say he is more to the right than center simply because he is less chicken than most mainstream to speak publicly to non lubavitchers and lubavitchers alike on what he believes in… Unlike many who tend to keep it just within lubavitch. I will also say mainstream quiet meshichists don’t Koch in yechi… They either say it or don’t but don’t make a whole thing out of it… If that makes sense.

But I actually think the time for political correctness and keeping the juicy stuff within lubavitch is over- my husband and I were discussing how by hashgacha protis, there’s a new spirit sweeping the world- one against cover up, political correctness and fake news culture, and how its going to help towards getting the world ready for moshiach…. And we’ve been asked many times on this forum to just be completely honest and stop with the awkward dances. So I think he does a great job at explaining things because Yeah the Rebbe wasn’t as “normal” as sechel and his fellow detroit bochurim
would love us all to believe. Or there wouldn’t be these phenomena as yall have pointed out. But the Rebbe always based himself on solid ground. And so do we.

A freilichen Chanukah! Sorry haven’t answered in a very timely fashion – been very busy lately and probably will be the next few days as well… So if I don’t get back to you right away on something, its not because I’m shying away, its just because I have other matters to attend to first 😉

Al rishon rishon:

“CS, Chossid and SH (and maybe TT too), are you going to reply/comment on my claim/proof that the sundial story is fiction, or are you just going to ignore it because when a fact doesn’t fit in with what you want to believe the best thing to do is to ignore the fact?”

Rso the reason I didn’t respond further is because i didn’t see anything that warrants a response. Ie if you trust your third grade science experiment knowledge and the grand expertise of your third grade teacher, especially when sun dials are not even in use nowadays, to such an extent that you think that proves the entire Frierdiker Rebbe’s Memoirs are fiction, all it shows is the lengths you are willing to go to believe anything other than what our holy Rebbeim have said.

Ie you’re being the illogical one here. And I think you’ve shown that unhealthy level of skepticism of anything a lubavitcher says, many times over. It gets to a point where I think there’s no point answering your question because you probably believe I’m a paid lubavitch propagandist who is dishonest etc 😂.

Now if you could show an actual discrepancy in events written by the Frierdiker Rebbe himself in two different places or some other impossible contradiction that would warrant a more serious investigation. But you seem to be content to believe everything our chassidim and Rebbeim said and wrote is delusion or fiction while I’m certain that that is complete garbage and falsehood….

Gutte voch! By hashgacha protis, this past Friday a friend sent me a two hour farbrengen recording by Rabbi Reuven Wolf from yud tes Kislev, and told me I must watch it. I started and couldn’t stop myself – I listened to the whole thing.

He addresses many many of the controversial “secret lubavitch” stuff, for example atzmus umehus araingeshtelt in a guf, moshiach, why lubavitch is so “different” or even crazy etc. He says things as they are, with no filters, but also clearly explains so no room for misinterpretation.

I would highly recommend it for toi, Rso, sechel and any curious others. You can search our on you tube as rabbi wolff: signs of moshiach (the one with the Rebbe picture)

Just to give you a bit of background on Rabbi wolf:

he wasn’t born lubavitch, he was born chassidish, and attended a litvishe yeshiva (I think ponovitch,) before he became lubavitch, so he is much more “normal” than even me.

Like he isn’t a naive born and bred lubavitcher, he knows very well what the velt thinks.

He also is very learned in many sefarim and sources, not just lubavitch.

But he is also a shreimel wearing meshichist as he puts it. He is a proud lubavitcher with no filters and no hiding anything. Now, for sechel, he is a shliach under merkas and his shlichus (for toi etc) is teaching Chassidus to frum people and lubavitchers in LA. He writes in mishpacha magazine now and then.
He is a very passionate speaker and makes for very interesting content. would love to discuss any follow up from anyone watching.

Toi I didn’t address point by point because I and others already did in the other thread…. But if you wanna have another go at it with the newcomers, enjoy. And syag we specifically brought non lubavitch sources.

Hi rso been so busy with YTK that haven’t had much time for anything else. My husband is now at his third farbrengen and I have a few minutes, so I’ll just write a few things I’ve wanted to say. A) I do feel my story posts would have helped with the Tanya question. Looks like the mods didn’t allow them though so I’ll leave that one. B) tburnface im surprised you felt you had to resort to slander and fake news. I mean there are plenty of “secrets” you can tell about lubavitch without creating silly lies. All Farbrengens I and my husband attended emphasised achdus between all yidden (including the farbrengen of the Rebbe we watched) my husband didn’t drink at all (if he does tonight it would be under 4 kelishkes as per the Rebbe’s directive to those under 40)
C) rso I definitely wouldn’t say its creative fiction. A Rebbe doesn’t make stuff up. Also in lubavitch particularly, chassidim and Rebbeim alike have been very careful with every detail of a story transmitted, so it’s not the culture to add in stuff that sound good but aren’t true.

The memoirs I would assume are based on what the Rebbetzin Rivkah, the Rebbe Maharashs wife, told the Frierdiker Rebbe – as he heard much of lubavitch history and stories from her. Curiously though, I will tell you I think I may have personally noticed one tiny contradiction in the memoirs themselves, and I have wondered about that. I would need to double check but if my memory doesn’t fail me, in one place it says that baruchs mother passed away before his father, and in another it says that his father passed away first… Maybe some lubavitchers here would know whats up with that. Anyhow as I haven’t looked into it I didn’t comment before.

Anyone else (lubavitchers) seen that?

The moderation must be very backlogged tonight. I submitted my story posts hours ago. Are all the mods at farbrengen 😜

Gut Yom Tov!! I think if you understand more about what the Sefer Tanya Kadisha is, it will definitely help. To do that, I’ll write up a moiradike story a heard from a shiur in preparation for yud tes Kislev, maybe later tonight after I write to the Rebbe. Lshana toiva belimud Hachassidus uvdarchei Hachassidus to all 🙂

Neville
“Why does that even matter? If people claim we’re in a state of Geula when none of the criteria are met, they have to expect to be accused of kefira.

I will say, many of the Dati Leumim make basically the exact same claim (as you’ve seen here even on this thread) with far less backlash. I do think Chabad is a little unfairly singled out in that sense.”

Why does it matter? Because people have been making such a big deal that Chabad thinks that their Rebbe can still be moshiach after gimmel tammuz happened.
You would think that at least they’d all be gung ho about it before gimmel tammuz but that clearly wasnt the case.

In fact there are three possibilities mentioned in Torah sources of where moshiach can come from 1) from the living (the gemara) 2) from the dead (Abarbanel is one source) 3) revealed, concealed, revealed again (see last rashi in Daniel for one of those).

We won’t know exactly how it unfolds until it does. We just know who we can consider a worthy candidate.

As far as being in a state of Geula see the op. It doesn’t mean halachically.

Sam
“I think that all the upheavals in the world – both Jewish and secular – is to bring about the Gemara “ma’amid aleihem melch kosho keHaman” so that EVERYONE should beg for the Geulah! Things are going from bad to worse. Out in the general word, fighting within nations, internal unrest in the biggest and strongest dictatorships; here in the US, we have natural disasters, one after another – droughts, fires, and floods, not to say anything about our refugee crisis, AND the rising Antisemitism.
Hashem is shaking the world, so we should wake up and acknowledge that He is the ONLY ONE who can take us out of this bitter Galus.”

Exactly! The coming of moshiach and how exactly the process unfolds depends on us! It can be pleasant or scary. That’s why I strongly believe in being proactive and encouraging more yidden to learn Torah, do mitzvos, grow constantly myself, and daven for the Geula for the right reasons. I mean if we’re gonna have it anyway and gonna ask for it anyway why wait until we need to for not positive reasons? Let’s daven for the right reasons!

DY obviously I disagree with your comment, but I appreciate it nonetheless (if that makes sense)

If you really want to know numbers there’s a very simple way to do it. Obviously people tend to hang out with friends they have more in common with hashkafa wise, call that normal, call more extreme, and less modern or a similar term, say left wing. I think im mainstream, sechel seems to think he is. Very simple. Go through the Yeshivos in USA or whatever given country you know. See how many are “anti” (don’t like the term, but for lack of better), how many mainstream, how many right wing meshichist as in yechi yarmulkes and yellow flags. There you have your numbers…