CS

Username:

“OK. I’ll ask the million dollar question.

Instead of hashing it out, let’s talk sources. Can someone find a source, any source, that mentions this Diyuk or argues on this Diyuk from before 1994?”

Not that I am aware of but why would that matter? The Rebbe as you know was very into diyukim in rashi and Rambam as they were written with ruach hakodesh. Before gimmel tammuz no one cared to look too closely at the lashon because there was no need. But really username you know the Rebbe explained many diyukim in Rashi and Rambam even this Rambam. The one that comes to mind is the diyuk on the word bimkomo. That’s quite a chiddush to make based on a word, don’t you think?more than this I would say….

Aside from the fact that the Rebbe said about the Frierdiker Rebbe that he can still be moshiach even after yud shvat.

I was gonna post the yerushalmi and one other source (it was cut off in the picture but I can ask for it) but you beat me to it username. not sure why you write dismissively it was a typo?aside from the fact that we don’t eat fish and milk because of a typo and not even one in the gemara – what gives you the right to think that? This is gemara…

Rso I didn’t have male support for that but thanks for the compliment (?). Just curious why is shtar eirusin more indicative of a male than shliach kiddushin?

In any case if what you’re saying is true (you didn’t post the mm just said gemara) that the shlucho shel adam kmoso is retroactively cancelled halachically if the meshaleiach passes away, then I take that point back. It was my own. The shimshon point though I think still stands. (That I did have male support for if you’d like – a male sent me pages of a Sefer discussing it.)

Sechel, chassidim thought gimmel tammuz wouldn’t happen for several reasons, from what I understand the shmos chov vov sicha being chief among them. Obviously they had no reason to study the Rambam in that sense as closely, as there was no need. Additionally, even today we are saying that the bchezkas moshiach has to be established when the person is alive. No one is negating that. The question only is what if the person DID fulfill bchezkas moshiach but then passed away yet their work is ongoing so you cannot say lo hitzliach ad ko? That’s what we’re discussing here. Note you didn’t answer my question. I really would appreciate a straight answer.

Sechel:

Me: ““Well we have the halacha that shlucho shel adam kmoso. Also, remember Shimshon, about whom it is said that he reigned for 40 years although he only lived as a shofet for 20. Why? Because his influence over the plishtim extended 20 years after his passing, and Torah therefore writes that HE ruled the yidden for all those 40 years. So as long as the Rebbe’s efforts continue, he can still be considered bchezkas Moshiach.”

Sechel: “That’s wonderful, but that isn’t Koveah Halacha. Ma Zaroy BaChayim Af Hu doesn’t mean that the Rebbe is considered physically alive in the sense that if we weren’t continuing his legacy, he couldn’t be Moshiach, but now that we are, he can. Halacha simply doesn’t work that way.”

I understand that Ma zaro bachayim can’t count as him being physically alive, because, (as NP posted on the 19 p thread,) a judge can only judge halacha by what his eyes see. So even if say, the Rebbe is alive, and is merely concealed, that doesn’t hold up halachically because halacha deals with what we see physically.

But that isn’t what I’m saying. I’m saying that just as Shimshon is considered shofet 40 years in Torah, even though he only physically led them for 20, because his influence continued after his passing, so too here. Why wouldn’t that hold up? ( Note the Rambam never discusses what happens if the bchezkas moshiach passes away naturally. He only says two things disqualify: If he is unsuccessful or if he is killed.)

Once this is clarified I can address the rest.

Ziongate
“For any good deed that a person does by free will, a certain level of RH rests upon him,
and prepares him to do a second good deed.”

Fascinating. Thanks for sharing.

“See Tractate Brachot on how a certain level of Divine Spirit rets upon parents when giving their
child a name.. Orach Chayim in Parshat Vayeitzei, I believe, writes that this is true even of non- Jews.”

Yes for sure I’ve experienced that. I also used to think that it was only for very very holy people, but now I think it’s more of a process… The more tuned into your neshama and Avodas Hashem you are, the more often you experience and the more concrete the experience is. Not necessarily all or nothing… Wanted to know if people have experienced this in whatever delicate manner it is – ziongate gave one example. I could give another three but somehow don’t think it’s appropriate to spell out on this forum…

Also YR I get that it can sound over the top etc but when you look at the results you will see it is the truth. If it really was a problem and distracted from Hashem, then MY generation would have mostly forgotten Hashem cvs or Chabad would have broken down and joined other groups as many predicted. The fact that not only are we not decreasing, but we’re growing stronger shows something. And not only that. We know that it’s only because we’re connected to the Rebbe “over the top” that were the only group able to go out alone on shlichus and still stay fully frum, connected to Hashem and influence our environments.

Laskern The Rebbe analyzes the various sources and comes up with four options:
1) we build what we can led by moshiach, and Hashem will add whatever isn’t clear (the changes in nevuas yescheskel.)
2) Moshiach will put up the doors to the BHMK that Hashem will build, as putting up the doors is like building the whole thing.
3) Moshiach will build the physical BHMK and Hashem will send down the spiritual one and they will fuse together.
4) it depends on our spiritual level. If we’re on a lower level, then moshiach will build it (halacha anticipates worst case scenario hence the Rambam). If we’re on a higher level than it will be revealed from heaven.

Not tonight due to the date but would like to respond to the replies on the Rambam. It would be interesting to flesh out. I may be wrong on some things- as I said this isn’t exactly conventional study within lubavitch – I would like to clarify it for myself as well.

All you people saying don’t do mitzvos to bring moshiach – the era of moshiach is the time period when we’ll be able to serve Hashem fully (as in 613 mitzvos vs. under 300, all shvatim vs. 2.5, in eretz Yisrael with the Halachos of it with the beis Hamikdash etc.). So anyone who cares about doing mitzvos to fulfill ratzon Hashem should want to bring the era of moshiach asap so we can do exactly that. That’s actually what the era of moshiach even is!

YR:
“CS – please address two points:

1) How the Lubavicher Rebbe a=can still be Moshiach even though he is presently dead, when the Rambam says otherwise.”

See post 2 of my 3 posts.

“2) Even assuming the Halacha is not like the Rambam, why is the Rebbe the greatest of all possible dead candidates”

Not necessarily is he. The main reason why we emphasize the Rebbe is because he is the most recent, from our generation, not because he is the greatest.

“3) Why there is a chabad obsession to identify their dead Rebbe as Moshiach even though it contradicts all the evidence,.”

Because there has been a Plan in place for the world. This plan follows from Sheshes yemei beraishis through the seven generations of chassidus. As the Rebbe is the seventh, and the seventh generation is the one to bring the Shechina back to this world, (As Moshe did- the 7th from Avraham, as the Medrash says ko,s hviin chavivin- not that he was greater than Avraham, he just was zoche because he was 7), and the Rebbe is the Nossi hador of the generation, it doesn’t seem likely for any other possibility.

We don’t find it easy- we find it difficult, and we feel we are being tested majorly. But I do feel Moshiach is around the corner judging by world events and the progress on all levels (such as teshuva, kibbutz golios, aseres hashvatim, the downfall of yishmael,) so hopefully we will all see the answers very soon.

” no other Jewish group has this obsession,”

True. Because the other groups barely touch the topic of Moshiach and geula. If you are ignorant of something how can you obsess about it? I literally go through every day looking for more signs of Moshiach in the world. But I wouldn’t be half as obsessed if I didn’t learn so much about the era of Moshiach and Chassidus as well.

“and it makes a chillul Hashem and Chillul Lubiavich for all onlookers,”

It seems to make one when people are ignorant and associate anything connected to Moshiach with non Jewish religions. Just because something sounds similar to another religion it doesn’t mean it is or isn’t. Those other religions were created attempting to copycat yiddishkeit so obviously some stuff will sound similar. The question is what does Torah say about this? Not does it sound to similar to another religion.

“and there is nothing to be gained by it other than perhaps fulfilling a psychological need. It certainly doesn’t bring Moshiach closer”

Maybe you understand better now. And personally being able to visualize Moshiach and Geula in a very concrete way only spurs me on further in my Avodas Hashem to do things right.

YR post 2:
Now the Rebbe fulfilled the conditions for being bchezkas Moshiach which are to be
1) a king from Beis Dovid
2)Well versed in Torah and oisek bmitzvos like Dovid his ancestor
3) He coerces the Jewish people to go in Torah’s ways and strengthen (ie fix) its breaches
4) He fights the wars of Hashem
(If you have questions on that, I’ll be happy to answer. Just trying to avoid elaboration where I can.)

Now if someone is bchezkas Moshiach, he is considered so unless:
a) He is unsuccessful
B) He is killed.

Looking at the context here, two main things emerge as the qualifications needed to be Moshiach. One is the Moshiach’s personal qualities, and the other is his effect on the world, preparing it for the Geula.

Now if his efforts fall short and he fails to get the world to the geula (as the next stage of Moshiach vadai denotes), then his chazaka as Moshiach is broken. If the evil forces of the world, which he is meant to defeat, manage to defeat him instead, to the extent that they kill him, he is not worthy of being Moshiach.

Now what happens if the ‘Bchezkas Moshiach’ passes away? Well normally, that ends his efforts so as per A), his chazaka is broken.

But in this case, that isn’t the case, as the Rebbe’s efforts to reach every Jew and even non Jews, continue and have only grown stronger, until today, mainly through the shluchim.

Any shliach you ask will tell you that they are only able to do what they do by the koach of the Rebbe. But can this halachically be considered the Rebbe’s efforts?

Well we have the halacha that shlucho shel adam kmoso. Also, remember Shimshon, about whom it is said that he reigned for 40 years although he only lived as a shofet for 20. Why? Because his influence over the plishtim extended 20 years after his passing, and Torah therefore writes that HE ruled the yidden for all those 40 years. So as long as the Rebbe’s efforts continue, he can still be considered bchezkas Moshiach.

TBC

RSo:
“I find this VERY interesting! I don’t know whether Rabbi Heller is a lubavicher or not, but he chose something which is NOT one of the 7 mitzvos. Rather his intention seems to be to have more people dress in a tznius manner so that we Yidden will have it easier when coming in contact with them.

That I can see the point of. (Sorry for the lousy grammar.)”

It seems you missed the point. Or I wasn’t clear. In any case, part of teaching them how to find meaning in their lives of course included the sheva mitzvos bnei noach as that is a goy’s purpose in life and the only way he can connect to Hashem. He taught them that for their personal good. The favor he asked them for in return was something that would help us- the Jews, by creating tznius clothing styles. This was about six years ago, when all the skirts were short the fashion was tight etc, and women found it hard not to be influenced by the trends as there was practically nothing in the on Jewish shops and it is hard for women to feel nerdy. Now BH there is plenty of tznius styles available, which makes it easier for women who struggle with tznius and fashion to choose tznius because it is plentiful and affordable and you don’t look as much from a different century.

RSo:
“Interesting how no one has commented on the piece from Sefer Chassidim I posted.” The context isn’t clear. That’s why I haven’t commented

Rso:
“But if “even the buttons have been polished”, i.e. absolutely everything has been done, then “the Am” caring about it is included and has already been fulfilled. On the other hand, if it’s necessary that “every regular man woman and child care about” Mashiach coming, and that is not yet the case, then the buttons haven’t been polished.”

K here goes (feel free to ask for the sources of anything I say here, just not typing out each one):
The era of Moshiach is the whole purpose of Creation. What’s fascinating about it is that Hashem so to speak constantly reworks His Plan according to our choices (although He also knows the end result.) This is why there are so many options and variables connected to the era of MOshiach and how it will come about.

In general, chazal speak of the two options of Zochu or Lo zochu. Besides for the literal translation being meritorious, zochu also comes from the word zach- pure. I.e. there is always an option for us to preempt the Plan and bring it early- zachu- but that would entail working on a more spiritual and pure level- zach.

The longer golus takes, ie lo zachu, the more we get into the grittiness and chumrius of the world and deal with lo zachu stuff. But that ends up making the era of Moshiach more enjoyable, meaningful and rich, which is why Hashem prefers the latter.

This has played out in history: To refine the world, as mentioned above, we need to elevate the 288 “sparks” of holiness hidden in the world, by working with the world and using it to serve Hashem. This started with the Jewish Nation in MItzrayim where as discussed previously, they elevated 202, leaving us a mere 86.

Now another point: We were all originally one soul- Yaakov, and the more Jews born, the more our one soul splits into different bodies. Also, every generation the souls have generally less power so they take more people and more effort to accomplish what a previous generation could have. That’s why the Yidden in Mitzrayim were able to elevate an awful bunch, whereas the mere remaining 86 took thousands of years.

The next phase of the Plan (as the 400 year one didn’t work, because we sunk into 49 shaarei tumaah and had to get out early before we finished our task,) was that Yidden would live in Eretz Yisrael and not have to deal directly with the nations etc. Indeed we were commanded to expel/ kill those there so they wouldn’t be any sort of hindrance to us. By the lofty power of our avoda, we were to draw the remaining sparks in chutza laaretz to us in Eretz Yisrael, and thereby refine them without having to leave. We were to be like the bonfire that draws sparks inwards. The Goyim were meant to learn from us by hearing od our example in their lands, and coming to visit etc.

TBC

Rso great questions. I’m really looking forward to addressing them. There is a lot of information missing in my post on p 32, but I thought it would suffice to provide a simpler understanding of personal growth vs. polishing the buttons. However your question touches on a whole nother topic which I’ll be happy to address. I’ll be happy to address your other posts too before moving on to answer YRs post and getting into some good Rambam learning on the Rebbe specifically, as discussing the general understanding of moshiach and Geula definitely takes precedence.

Rso:
“CS: “People are searching for meaning and stronger connection to Hashem both not yet frum and frum alike nowadays. I even see this by the non Jews in levels never before seen in history.”

Rso: Could you please elaborate on how you see this by non-Jews in unprecedented levels?”

Yeah. As far as I know, we always had geirim, some time periods more than others. But geirim really have Jewish souls to begin with which push them to become geirim, so I’m not talking about that.

I’m talking about the growing number of non Jews coming to learn about Hashem and Torah from Jews to find meaning in their lives (as non Jews) and strengthen their connection with Hashem. Also the many non Jews who believe that their blessings in life will come from being true friends of the Jewish people. Some examples:

CUFI has topped five million (yes they still have false beliefs but they’re way ahead of their ancestors…as the Rambam says in hilchos melachim that the reason why those two religions started to begin with is so they get some of the truths such as belief in One G-d, and moshiach… And then when the truth is revealed they’ll find it easy to discard the garbage their ancestors taught them along with the truth.)

Growing numbers of Christians interested in coming closer to the “old testament” roots and learning from Jews about it.

Many gentiles rejecting Christianity altogether in favour of the 7 mitzvos bnei noach. (We have a two part Sefer recently printed on the details of each of the sheva mitzvos bnei noach driven by demand as the non Jews said we had to inform them of the details the same way we keep kosher practically because we have detailed Halachos.) (There is a centre for them in Texas. They are a hard demographic to sustain because when they learn further, many decide they want to go become full fledged Jews. Nevertheless when in history have you seen this?)

Celebrities coming to rabbis to learn how to have a meaningful life. (Rabbi Heller the mohel has helped a bunch of these, and when they asked him what he wanted in return he said they should start modest clothing fashions… Bh the trend has caught on.)

The parade of the nations in Israel. Etc.

YR
“This is why “The Rebbe runs the world” is kefira, plain and simple.”

Sorry meant to address that line in the last post and forgot.I addressed this earlier but in any case its not kefira because it’s not replacement for Hashem. What we mean is it may look like Donald trump decided to move the embassy, (and on yud tes Kislev no less) but really its because of the Rebbe shturming above that Hashem should move things forward towards Geula.

Ie the Rebbe instead of the goyishe world leaders and politics, not instead of Hashem.

Laskern:
“CS, If Jews would have stayed the full 400 years, there would have been no other galus. The Chasam Sofer explains that Pesach was the cause for Tisha Beov that is why we eat eggs at the seder which falls on the same day as א’ת the first day of Pesach falls as Tisha Beov. It is like being hit by pebbles or a rock, many smaller galuses or a big one.”

Fascinating. I didn’t hear this before but it makes sense with what I did know, namely that Hashem had to recalculate the ketz so that He could redeem them before they fell to the 50th gate of tumaah where they would not have been able to get out from. And they came out with “Rav” which is gimatria 202 out of the 288 nitzutzos we need to elevate throughout history.

This ties in very well – if they hadn’t sunk to mem tes shaarei tumaah, they would have been able to stay the full 400 years, and thus elevate ALL the sparks so we would have had the complete Geula.

Incidentally this also addresses sams question about oisgeputzen di kneplach:

On a world scale we had to elevate all the sparks from the spiritual world of Tohu which “fell” by sheviras hakeilim into this world – oilam hatikkun. We do this by working with the world and elevating it by using it for Torah, mitzvos and Avodas Hashem.

When the Rebbe first became Rebbe there was only a tiny amount of this avoda left – which was referred to as polishing the buttons – the last minor task soldiers do when preparing for the generals inspection.

Some years later the Rebbe said this avoda too was completed so on a WORLD scale we are ready for Geula. This does not mean that we no longer have a yetzer hara or cannot further work on ourselves as individuals. Of course we can and must. But the work of all the generations until now suffices on a world scale to have the Geula.

Sam
““Men hot shoin ausgepuzt die kneplach”? This was said 30-35 years ago by the Rebbe. Why are we still in Galus then?”

See my post to laskern for background. To answer the question, the Rebbe asked this as well and said all his work is for nothing as moshiach still hasn’t arrived yet. He concluded that the answer is that Hashem wants moshiach and Geula to go from being just something that the Nossi cares about to something the Am, every regular man woman and child care about. So it’s up to us…

(regarding ykk I said earlier I don’t know enough about it but it’s not just lubavitch that doesn’t observe it now).