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The worst thing about reading them is that their values seep in without you realising because it’s just part of the story. Then your senses get dulled. Then something which may have seemed highly inappropriate when you first read it, coming from the world of Jewish literature, becomes normal and doesn’t strike you as disgusting or inappropriate at all, just not something that Jews do. Eventually you could even desire to do things the way the normal way is, as to you, normal is now the non Jewish way of doing things.
This is what the Torah means when it says not to follow the disgusting ways of the Canaanim. If they are disgusting why would we follow them? Because after seeing their ways day in and day out they stop looking disgusting and may even look desirable.
To address the op, it is that there are always problems in non Jewish books. There are always things that don’t line up with Torah values. The only time I read non Jewish novels was when I was forced to for three years of high school. Animal farm- the main characters were pigs- that was the least problematic one. A tale of two cities by dickens- the interaction between the male protagonist and females was highly inappropriate, a separate piece sent the message that everyone is evil at heart, and the book we read that was a teacher’s redo of indoctrinating students to become Nazis, as an experiment (forget the title) featured boyfriends and girlfriends.
If you want a good piece of writing where the values and purity just shine through, read The Lubavitcher Rebbe’s Memoirs. He writes the history with such descriptive writing, that you feel like you are there yourself.
I remember the clear contrast between dickens disgusting objectification of women as just being valued for their looks vs. the memoirs which described a young women as being beautiful in character as well as in appearance. The character was first and the appearance just added or expressed the beautiful character. Just like we learn about the Imahos.
GH to me at least it really isn’t very complicated. Jewish books are books written by frume Yidden who naturally espouse frume values. Non Jewish books are those that aren’t written from the lens of Torah hashkofa even if the author happens to be Jewish
The Baal Shem Tov taught that a person is like a mirror. When you see a dirty face in the mirror it’s a reflection of your own dirty face. So too if you see someone else as a bad person because of a certain fault they have that’s Hashem’s way of notifying you that you have that same fault, just maybe on a lesser scale. Self love covers personal flaws so this is how Hashem shows you what you have to work on.
Mazal Tov!!! Glad to hear!
Aquarium
Very nice!! I also await him with my tambourine. I painted it in high school so the paint and jewels have been chipping off but that’s cuz he’s taking too long!!
“My point is that administering justice is a purpose also. Ha’SHem has a hanhogah of Judgement also, not only of Kindness. He can set whatever rules he wants. If it is all love, love and love, let the cleansing be completely painless!”
You are right that it is painful because He is administering justice which comes from gevurah. If it was just chessed it would be possible. But Chassidus teaches that gevurah comes from a deeper place than chessed and it is a deeper chessed if you will. Tigbores hachessed. But since it is so intense and strong we experience it in a negative way ie as yissurim or gehennom etc. But Hashem only does it because He cares for us so deeply to make us the best we can be.
“P.S.: and those who burn forever, according to you, what is the purpose and where is the love?”
Answer 1 (cop-out): were discussing gehennom where the max is 12 months.
Answer 2: every Jew will be redeemed eventually. Lo yidach mimenu nidach.
As far as wicked goyim that’s another case. They’re not Hashem’s beloved only child and if they start up on His children they deserve what they get. He cares for them too, as CA brought, but not in the same way at all.
Litebrite you’re very welcome.
Laskern that’s a great interpretation there. Where’s it from?
Coffee addict:
“Did you think they didn’t yearn for moshiach with all their hearts until now? The pogroms, the inquisition, the holocaust ,etc”
Yearning for relief from your even very serious problems is not synonymous with yearning for moshiach. As the Baal HaTanya said when asked by the elders of vitebsk why moshiach is taking so long, he said something to the effect of what they’re waiting for isn’t moshiach and the real moshiach no one wants…”
Litebrite you mentioned losing weight which reminds me of a good mashal I heard on the topic of gehennom: people do workouts in the gym which are difficult but rewarding. However the same gym routine can be experienced as torture if it was forced by gunpoint. What’s the difference? By the former you know what you are doing, the purpose it serves and how long it will take. By the latter you don’t know the purpose, or it is done just to cause pain, and you don’t know when it will be over. So too gehennom is experienced as a punishment because you don’t see the meaning behind it but in reality it is a cleansing process for the neshama.
CA thank you
Philosopher: great so we’re in agreement. I also hope not to end up there.
Mdd1: because when you really love your child you will discipline them as necessary out of your great love. Or to use the mashal, you clean your child’s filthy diaper even though they kick and scream because you love them. If you didn’t love them so much you’d let them sit in it. Similarly Hashem cleans us up from the aveira mess we made so that we can disassociate from the bad and just be left with the good you accomplished forever.
Philosopher the Chabad way of looking at things is that it is a cleansing process done out of Hashems great love for us. It is painful and experienced as a punishment, but it’s a means to get cleansed to enter gan Eden
It’s a Chassidic interpretation. The Rebbe put a comma after mimaatin, so it reads from when Av enters, we decrease (all the negative energy etc) with Simcha. Obviously Simcha in a way that is permitted such as having or attending a siyum every night etc.
These days are on the surface level harsh sad days but their inner meaning is to get us to the Geula (through correcting the reasons for the churban.) The way to do that today is by being positive and looking forward to and yearning for the Geula in a positive way.
@mods can you change my username to CS? I was told I should use my initials only when posting on a mixed forum thanks.
Just to clarify, its not a contradiction. We’re mourning on the outside while being bsimcha on the inside. It’s like a mother changing a dirty diaper – the baby may scream because it hurts but she’s only doing it because of her great love of the child. So Hashem gave us these harsh days because He really loves us and through working on ourselves in these days, they are meant to bring us to Geula
I have this new hobby where I’m on a tehillim group that says tehillim to bring moshiach. We’re currently on round 718!
Bh my kids and tehillim have been keeping me quite busy
Ideally kids should have respect for their parents because they’re mentchen themselves and respect their children as people and Hashem’s children (obviously not the same level as respect for parents or even equals). If the only way to get kids to listen is by coercion, the parents need help and it won’t be healthy for the kids. But it’s still better than no discipline. People suffer much more from that for much longer.
If necessary then it’s better than no boundaries and hefkervelt. But it’s not ideal or healthy, on a regular basis, especially today.
Why doesn’t she?
Modesty
“What about the teenage girls living in an environment where they are felt left out when tznius. and part of the club when dressed not tznius.”
It can be very difficult. The way to overcome it is by taking pride in dressing tzniusdik. People respect and trust those who hold true to their values even when it differs from
the crowd. The way to build up pride is by learning about the positive (and negative but focus on the positive) until it becomes so much a part of you that it is who you are.When I was in high school we had a wonderful curriculum where we learned how tznius is the Jewish culture, how it brings to kedusha etc. After the general introduction we went into the specific categories of how it applies (and the power of) sight, music, and dress.
One of my favourite classes. Wish all high schools taught this.
“My daughter loves to shop at a specific women’s clothing store in Boro Park because the owner is not afraid to tell her customers “That looks too tight on you. Try the next size or pick a different style.” She will refuse to sell a dress that is not tznius.”
That’s wonderful and takes real guts. Good for her! Id love to shop in such a store. It’s sad that I have such a hard time finding skirts that cover a few inches below my knee (Im not super tall either) and / or are not tight in frum stores. In one store I’ve been to, they have shorter skirts downstairs and longer skirts upstairs on a rack (in case you want to be tznius). If the short skirts were just for the short people you would think the short skirts would be the ones tucked away in the back or upstairs, right? Anyway bh for online shopping. And bh that goyishe stores are selling longer skirts. I still haven’t found a suitable straight skirt that isn’t tight and short since my high school days in the stores near me, so I pretty much just wear a line skirts now as they’re in fashion to be longer and thus more readily available.
Well I’m glad you recognise that because (at least in my experience) it’s really only a help if done willingly or even better with a smile. It’s true. Women working takes up more time and takes off part of the husbands responsibility so it makes sense he should help with hers (although if it’s distasteful paying for a cleaner to do it is also an option.)
Who me? Yeah
“CS, very impressive about the tehilim and tanya. such a great thing to have divrei torah in your memory.”
Agreed. It’s very much stressed in Hayom yom. I love when I see fellow murmurers on the street 🙂
“and a tremendous thing for your baby, as the behaviour of the mother during pregnancy has an affect on the baby.”
Yes bh
“(just a comment about memorizing tehilim by heart. we usually don’t say tora shebiksav by heart, with the exception of those parts that everyone knows by heart, like ashrei, krias shma etc. i’m sure you know this and checked it out. would be interesting to know more about it.).”
So I only heard of this after I stopped memorising tehillim anyway so as it wasn’t relevant I didn’t fully research it. However from what I do know, the problem is not from saying tehillim Baal peh (in fact see 7 and 11 teves in Hayom yom where the Frierdiker Rebbe specifically encourages saying tehillim baal peh, along with Tanya, chumash and mishnayos to be saved from kaf hakela and to purify the air outside) but from specifically intending to memorise it instead of it being a natural process (although Hayom yom 11 teves does encourage having any of the above committed to memory but it could mean naturally… In any case tzorich iyun.)
“About the nigun of R’ Michel Zlotchover. i am pretty sure that it was the Baal shem tov who said that He would help the one who is singing this nigun. maybe that’s what you meant.”
Yeah you’re right. Thanks for the correction.
Food preparation, spraying counters, folding laundry
Number 2
Knaidlach if your wife is anything like me she got the idea to ask you from your unborn / nursing child who has an aversion to its mother doing strenuous work.
My husband will say something in a respectful manner if he thinks there is something questionable about my dress/ appearance. And I appreciate it because I wouldn’t want to go out questionably dressed, and because he expresses it respectfully I want to take it from him. In general if you want to be taken seriously by your wife be pleasant / respectful. That’s always been the Jewish way.
But it is a shame when men don’t say anything at all, in today’s day and age, because some women are unaware or they could use the knowledge that their husband is displeased with this way of dress. In a healthy marriage a woman wants to look good for her husband so that would be a strong incentive to dress modestly. Again, if expressed in a respectful manner.
Also if a man doesn’t watch his eyes his wife won’t respect/ will resent his wishes for her to watch/ curtail her inclination for looking beautiful (which can be expressed in inappropriate dress if it isn’t watched.) Maybe that’s why some men are ‘wimps’ about not telling their wives about this?
3 guesses
My husband mops the floor
It’s been fun. I have this project where I memorise tehillim and Tanya to the tunes of lubavitcher niggunim to help me remember it better. They way I always have words of Torah I can say in the streets or when doing housework etc
Last year I databased all the niggunim I’ve used so I won’t keep reusing ones I’ve used already. This year I realized that if I work in advance I can finish memorising the same number of prakim as I’m turning.But it’s taking me some time because the nigun I have picked I didn’t know (Reb Michel Zlotchovers nigun) so I’m learning the nigun and the Tanya…
But I think it’s worth it because it’s a very special nigun. R Michel was a Talmid of the Baal Shem Tov and he took his nigun from heichal hashir in gan Eden. He said whoever sings his nigun and needs help, he’ll come and help them from above.
WTP I originally joined the CR when I had my son. Between the constant waking up through the nights and nursing, I found I had more time to spend on the forum… I’ve been a bit absent lately as I’ve been preparing for my baby and my birthday iyh (and finally got back into saying more tehillim daily which has been exciting) but probably will be more present by my maternity leave 😉
Thank you 🙂
Gutte voch! No I wish but I’m due soon iyh so I couldn’t make it this year. Thanks for the thought.
Mr. Nu there are very valid grounds to strongly disagree with what you write, as the Rebbe did. He encouraged women’s learning in today’s day where they are fully educated in secular matters (which already teaches them tiflus) so they should have an equally strong Torah education, and can learn whatever they want. Well I guess they could always learn whatever they want – they can be TAUGHT whatever – even gemara. But again depends who you follow.
If the tiflus quote applies to any Torah shebaal peh then the only ones who hold of that today are the Satmar.
But obviously halacha and hashkafa come first which is why even most lubavitcher high schools don’t have a gemara class.
Depends who you follow.
“CS: Where does that leave frum women who aren’t looking to marry a Kollel guy (or there aren’t any Kollel guys available for them)?”
Depends on their values, but I would agree with you that (at least many) women dislike generally outdoing their husbands. Hard to respect and lack of respect for a husband does not a good marriage make. So it depends if a) they actually do earn a lot, and if they do b) can they find a man who makes as much or more or c) does something that they value more than high income.
Some men also don’t like their wives making more btw. They don’t feel like the provider and protector of the family in that case. Others could care less.
Interesting op Joseph. I think there is some truth to this – that women can’t stand outperforming their husbands. Hard for them to respect a man who achieves less than them. The thing is women who value kollel etc. will admire their husband for his learning and not see their higher income as being better than their husbands learning.
“And really, if a woman has that much more earning power, who is going to raise several children, clean the house, and bake the challah?”
I don’t think this is such an issue. The children should be priority yes, but again we have washing machines, dishwashers, freezers and more access to household help than our ancestors had. So that frees up allot of time. Also children go to school for most of the day. Clean the house – if you work you can afford help for the time you would have spent cleaning. Challa can still be made or store bought.
Square root: I mean outside influences/ logic that you
feed your mind. Like I said, if you learn chovos halevavos on a constant basis, your NFHE logic will be strengthened. If you go to college your NFHB logic will be strengthened etc.Btw even though all three can and do conflict, because they have three different agendas, the point is to create harmony between all three. That is when we are at our best. I can elaborate if you’d like.
Sorry for the delay. My new hobby has not left me much time for the CR:)
Anyhow, we have three different types of thought processes and viewpoints going through our mind on a constant basis. They are the nefesh hoelokis AKA neshama viewpoint, nefesh habehamis viewpoint, and the guf instincts.
NFHE sechel wants everything for Hashem. Ie. Ahava should be devoted to loving Hashem, fellow Jews etc.
Gevura should be devoted to hating whatever opposes Hashem, discipline to serving Him better.
In contrast, NFHB sechel wants everything to revolve around itself. Ahava= self love, Gevura = hating criticism / disliking those who do more than you because they make you feel guilty etc.
Guf instincts send up thoughts like I’m hungry, thirsty, tired etc.
The sechel processor ie you, is the nefesh hasichlis which is neutral sechel. It takes in what you feed it, assesses the logic within, and based on that creates your emotions (which is what you are (on an external level at least.))
Now you change yourself based on what you put in. For example, if you learn chovos halevavos and think about that for awhile, what makes sense to you, and thereby what you feel and then do, will be very different than if you immerse yourself in secular studies and college environment. Usually.
The former will lead to you prioritizing Minyan, Yiddishe chinuch, honesty etc.
The latter will lead you to prioritizing “making it” in the world, with whatever compromises it entails.
And both are based on logic. Just depends which logic you feed to the nefesh hasichlis.
With your nefesh hasichlis (which may or may not be part of your nefesh habehamis.)
I can explain the process if you’d like