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But I will grant you TLIK that therapists have several advantages: this is their parnassa so they focus on their clients and have ample time to give them etc. They also are trained in different conditions and can hopefully (not always) differentiate between a medical need and psychological need etc. This is lacking by Rabbanim who can’t grant ample time to many people to really understand what the real issue is and meet with them a set amount of time weekly for as long as they need etc.
Luckily there are already people who have thought of this and are planning a Torah training alternative to therapy course.
(Cont’) This doesn’t mean that Torah doesn’t acknowledge pain. But it’s like going through a painful surgery. We pay the doctor to do it and willingly go through the pain because we know it’s in our best interests. But we don’t think of ourselves as a victim of the doctor…
I completely agree with you that there are many conditions that require medical treatment like psychiatric disorders etc.
But therapy has become the new “in” thing for anyone struggling with life problems in general, low moods resulting from low self worth etc. And many of these can be addressed with Torah perspective given from someone who loves what he says.
Regarding my experience with people who are in therapy for years and have still not reached Serenity etc in contrast with those who use Torah, it just hit me that a possible reason could be because therapy starts off with the notion that the suffering person is a victim/ survivor of someone else’s cruelty. This is a quite unsettling notion. Then they spend many years in therapy trying to regain their power and control over their life and that’s very tough.
Whereas with a Torah perspective, whatever happens to you, you are not a victim as it’s in your best interests. How and why, we’re not always meant
to understand immediately. And we also know that if we work on ourselves to see it this way, we will end up seeing the good in this physical world. This is very empowering. Of course it takes work, but ultimately one ends up elevated, instead of living as a survivorTLIK, I’m also just curious, since you have such a different perspective of therapy then me, how you would explain this phenomenon:
The people I know personally who have been in therapy for years, and wax poetic over how helpful the therapy is, are not happy people. When asked, one relative said, “Well I guess it’s a journey.” And they pay more and more money to continue to get to their inner peace…
Whereas the people I look up to who have had their share of hardships in life and used Torah as their guide, are happy empowered people. And they’re not shelling out all the therapy bucks either. This may not be everyone’s experience but I have noticed this. I wonder what you think about it.
TLIK hopefully we can agree on the importance of Torah as being the first port of call when faced with a crisis in life. If the Rav/ mashpia doesn’t feel well equipped enough to help the situation, or the person himself isn’t getting the help he needs, then by all means- try therapy – preferably with a frum person etc- and see if it helps.
As far as saying sholom Mordechai is an anomaly, that’s such a cop out. What’s so cool about him is that he’s not a tzadik or Rebbe, he was a regular businessman. When faced with an overwhelming crisis, instead of taking the easy route- playing victim, sulking in depression, he turned inwards and asked, what does Hashem want from me now? What’s expected of me. He put in the work, and he got amazing results. Anyone can do it, you just have to realize that Torah is truly our life and be willing to work at it with Torah guidance as needed.
TLIK you write that it’s not the professionals job to teach Torah. Bingo! That’s my point. They won’t be teaching the powerful self help tools in the Torah- a proper Rav can do that.
The professionals non Jewish training teaches them how to get people better in touch with themselves and focus on their own happiness (selfish approach) while with a Torah approach, you can learn how to take your situation and use it as a springboard for growth towards Hashem. The personal situation i described earlier, which had put me in such a state of agony, revisited twice more. Each time I was able to handle it better- the second time I was able to focus on making happiness a choice to serve Hashem better. And guess what? The situation cleared up and was gone which I didn’t really think would happen. The third time I focused on bitachon, and there was no real crisis. You’re not gonna get this from even a frum therapist because just like you said- his training is not in Torah ideology, and he’s not hired to teach you Torah. So you’ll have very different outcomes.
And, that’s the reason why so many people were rooting for him to begin with. Because they came to do chessed by visiting etc, and ended up being uplifted by him. So they devoted themselves to his cause out of inspiration.
I brought up Rubashkin twice because this idea of not running to goyim/she ideology for life direction and general well-being etc. he really is enthusiastic about, and he elaborates on his experiences to make it real and down to earth. He explains the Torah principles that support his ability to remain joyous even there, and is currently working on a book on that topic to help people.
As far as how do we know? He heard after he was freed, from one of the inmates, that one guard asked the other, “Who’s the guy that was let out by the President?” The other got thought for a second and said, “You know the guy who was always happy? That one.”
He was told by a well meaning acquaintance after his release, that after the star dust settles, he will most certainly need therapy to adjust to regular life, especially after prison. He didn’t need any therapy because he was never traumatized, because of the constant bitachon work he did.
Obviously he felt pain, but he was never depressed. And he is so intent on helping yidden have this for themselves, no matter the situation, that instead of going back into business, his dream was to learn and mentor yidden in bitachon. Hashem has helped him and he is massively successful BH. He now has six big homes which he used to host people for Shabbatons on the topic, and he also gives weekly shiurim which many people attend from nearby Lakewood, and many people from all over the world are in touch with him as a mentor. He has also spoken worldwide on his experience, and in general is in a different spiritual sphere than most people. His incredible test has only uplifted him through the power of Torah, as can be seen from his before, and after prison life. (Not that his before was bad cvs, he was amazing then too. Just nothing to compare to where he is holding now.)
Corrected not coerced
Ok I’m willing to be coerced tlik. Hear me out.
I’m generally happy because I’ve internalized hakoras hatov, and excited because I’m blessed to be a Yid.
I don’t harbor resentment or grudges because I’ve internalized that Hashem is the One who did it, and He has my best interests in mind, not other people.
I don’t get easily angered, and when I do I forgive easily. I’m working to get to the point where I don’t get angry at all… and the tools for that are is that yes, everything that happens to me SHOULD happen, and is not an injustice because Hashem is in charge. And He only desires my good.
Fear and anxiety posted above.
I have a happy marriage BH because I’ve internalized that we’re two halves of one Neshama, and that means that if one of us isn’t happy, we’re both not happy. Taking care of my spouse is my priority in ahavas yisrael. The importance Hashem places on sholom bayis, which is the source of bracha in the home. Also, the importance of not hurting others as in onaas Devarim etc.
I’m productive as long as it doesn’t affect my health, because I’ve internalized that I’m here for a mission and want to accomplish as much as I can. On the flip side, if I can’t be active, I’m comforted by the fact that Hashem has wrought this, so right now, serving Him means accepting the lack of productivity with joy.
On the flip side, I was once referred by a doctor to a therapist because I was in a state of agony. She tried cbt on me which I found absolutely meaningless. In the end, she was so concerned by the agony she saw that she reported to the doctor to make sure I wasn’ta risk to myself. Actually, even though I was in great pain, I never became suicidal, because I’ve internalized the concept of Olam Haba, and so realized that suicide wouldn’t be a good solution…. It would just make things much worse. After that, I dismissed the therapist, and went to my mashpia. My mashpia was able to give Hashem centered hadracha based on personal experience as well as Torah knowledge, that helped me to find a lot of comfort
and strength to deal with the pain.So… if your frum mental health professionals train people in the above ideals (which my impression is that they don’t) then I stand corrected tlik.
Look I don’t think I need to add anything…. As far as my doctor, you don’t know what I was there for but it wasn’t stress. And when I asked him what I was supposed to do with this me time, he said play games… yes there’sa need to step back sometimes, but Torah is all about servicing others. If you need to take care of yourself first to do that better, then ok, but the focus is on serving Hashem and making the world a better place. Putting others first etc. (If you need to be healthier to put others first, fine but the focus is on getting back to your Avodas hakodesh.) whereas “Me time” implies I’ve done my dues for you, now I’m doing what I want to do- focusing on myself. And what do I do with this self focused time? I waste it on meaningless activities… This was just one example… I see you’re standing at a different place, but I’m glad that some posters understand the point.
Just a disclaimer (for at least one poster) I was not hired by Chabad to be the official mouthpiece of Chabad on this site. I guess I should be honored by the insinuation that people would think so.
However, my posts are all based on things I’ve learned or the chinuch I’ve been given which is all Torah as illuminated by Chassidus, as well as farbrengens given by Chassidishe role models. When asked I’ve given the source. And if I’m incorrect, I’m happy to be corrected. I do not think it necessary to post this on every thread I may post on so I hope this is enough to calm the nerves of certain posters who can always refer to this at their convenience😀
Sorry have had a busy day… just to clarify as there were questions, as I said originally, if someone is ILL in any way, that’s chochma bagoyim taamin, and a Rav will refer if the case is out of his expertise etc. No problem with any of that.
Op isn’t suggesting that he’s clinically depressed, or has deep seated trauma that needs subconscious treatment. He’s looking for life advice/ direction and our first port of call should be Torah.
My parents started off marriage on a left foot. Since therapy wasn’t the trend, they obviously went to their local rabbi. He actually gave them bad advice which wasn’t helpful so they did their research and found rabbi ezriel taubers book “to become one” and lectures, along with alot of hard work, did wonders. They also found a different rav who helped them out and still guides them today.
Today, they would be strongly encouraged to go to therapy… and that’sa tragedy. Therapy isn’t always successful, you have to find the right match etc. And the ideology isn’t Jewish. So my point is, try Torah first for life advice.
TLIK I stand by my post. You’re basically saying that Torah is great for “erudition in Torah”, but for practical real life help and application, it’s dangerous for someone to ask a Rav/ mashpia for advice. I’m actually shocked no one has protested this notion. I could go on and on with examples etc. but I’ll just suffice with a few words unless someone would like elaboration.
Just like you can teach a horse to be a great horse but you can’t reach a horse to play chess, so too a goy, or goyishe training will not be able to help a Yid achieve true happiness (which is dependent on our connection to Hashem) or fulfillment.
For example, sholom Mordechai worked on his bitachon and was always happy, truly happy, in a very dark situation. The other prisoners went to the prison therapist and were prescribed tranquilizers so they wouldn’t commit suicide. You wouldn’t expect the therapist, non Jewish or Jewish to train you in bitachon, because that’s not within their experience/ their job description.
I went to a doctor once, who instead of just doing his official job, took the liberty of telling me that I should just have lots of me time and not take on too much etc.
BH I was educated in Torah enough to know that I can differentiate between the care I needed that was the doctors job, and the advice which was not in line with Torah…
If your Rav is not someone who is successfully married/ successful in his state of mind/ personal life skills, then find another Rav. A Rav is supposed to be a life example and possible mentor, not just a good intellectual.
The 205th mitzvah is that we are commanded to admonish a person who is performing a transgression or who is preparing to do so. One must verbally warn him and admonish him. We are not allowed to say, “I will not sin; and if someone else sins, that is between him and G‑d.” This [attitude] is contrary to Torah. Rather, we are commanded not to transgress, nor to allow another Jew to transgress. If a person is preparing to transgress, each individual is commanded to admonish him and to prevent him [from transgressing], even if there has not been testimony which would be sufficient for him to be punished.
The source of this commandment is G‑d’s statement (exalted be He),1 “You must admonish your neighbor.”
Also included in this commandment is that we should complain to a person who has done wrong to us. We should not bear a grudge and consider him to be a sinner. Rather, we are commanded to verbally complain to him in order that nothing should remain in our heart [against him].
In the words of the Sifra, “What is the source of the law that even if you admonish someone four or five times that you should continue to admonish him? From the phrase, ‘hochei’ach to’chiach.’2 One might think that one could admonish him to the point that his facial features change3 — the verse therefore continues,4 “And not bear sin because of him.”
Our Sages5 explained that this commandment is incumbent on every individual; even a person on a low level to someone on a higher level.6 Even if one is cursed or insulted he should not desist, nor stop admonishing unless he is struck physically, as explained by our Sages from the Oral Torah,7 “[One must reprimand] until one receives physical blows.”
This mitzvah has conditions and laws which are explained in various places in the Talmud.
Sorry I just thought I have to add that really, people who needed this kind of guidance always turned to their local rabbi/ rebbetzin (assuming they had a great marriage etc. themselves.) it’s a real machla we have today, that many people’s first port of call is “mental health professionals” Who are trained by goyim/ goyishe courses etc. (as if they’re so successful in marriage/ life…) Granted, there’s a need for therapists etc. When someone is actually ill, but for direction in life- we have the Torah! And people who live it. You can hear more from Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin who is writing a book on Torah self help tools that he used to be happy even in prison….
Within Chabad we have a mashpia system set up, where everyone is encouraged to have a mashpia as a life coach and go to person, and also to be mashpia to others…
RebSteve, see how that goes because I didn’t see her site online so I hope it’s still running. Additionally, there’s reliefhelp org, where you can speak to someone. I don’t know if there’s any volunteers though. And last but not least, you can reach out to your local rabbi/ rebbetzin or Chabad shluchim who may be able to mentor you themselves or connect you to someone who can.
Reb steve
Miriam Yerushalmi runs a network of volunteers for exactly what you need called S.A.N.E. Save a Neshama endowment👍🏻
Nomesorah, thanks for that letter, I never learned that before. However it seems The Rebbe was negating the idea that Rashbi passed on as one of true 24,000 students, which of course wouldn’t make historical sense. However I always understood that Rashbi passed away on Lag Baomer many years later, which The Rebbe doesn’t address there- he simply leaves it open ended by calling it his day Of celebration- which can be a euphemism for passing, or not.
“this is a gut vort. One hiluk: when Rabonim from 50-200 years ago write about this, it is about people who are abandoning Torah in favor of secular culture and knowledge.We here are mostly discussing Torah-observant Yidden adding knowledge of science or professions. This is a different issue.”
You’re right. I forgot that part of the perek when I cited it- that if the reason the person is learning it is to understand Torah better/ or to make a parnassa to serve Hashem (whoops I forgot that part) like the Rambam and Ramban, then it’s ok.
“Just to ponder: when gemora says – ein Torah b’goyim aval yesh Chochma b’goyim, why do they put these 2 things nearby, and how do they know about Chochma b’goyim? learned it and compared with their own studies?”
Some studied for the reasons above, and some came across It for example R Yehoshua who debated the philosophers of Athens.
However, the one Talmid chacham we know of, who knew a tremendous amount of Torah, but sang Greek songs etc. meaning he was interested in the culture itself and didn’t use it as a means to an end… well that’s Acher.
Yes it’s the same reason that we learn hilchos Beis habechira in the 3 weeks
*Chabad
Sam your post reminded me of the recent chof ches Nisan asifa/ farbrengen. All the farbrengens I’ve attended have been led by Chabad people, and this time the speaker list included people who were clearly not Chava as well. I was a bit skeptical but also curious and I listened and I was blown away. The best speaker with the most powerful message for me on the topic of moshiach (since most of the others weren’t new) was Charlie Harari. He gave a mashal with a very powerful punch for the nimshal but the point was are we gonna allow ourselves to be content with the yetzer hara offering us security and a plane ticket to EY, and some money?
We’re so close! But do we want a better golus or actual geula? The others were really amazing as well but I found his presentation had a punch to it. Really great