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“At the other end of the spectrum, there are some ehrliche yidden who treat the petirah of a pet like a member of the family, even to the point of engaging in some kind of “levayah” for Lassie.”
I don’t question the ehrlichkeit of these people, but they are misguided. You wouldn’t have a funeral for your favorite recliner, no matter how much you loved it. In the same way, no matter how fond you may be of your pet, it is NOT a member of the family. It is not a person with a Neshama, and your relationship with it should be different in kind from your relationship with other people.
וע”ע משניות ברכות פרק ב משנה ז ובמפרשים שם
Rav Belsky zatza”l reportedly held that a Keurig does not require tevila.
My Rav told me that although there are those who allow tevila without the cord, “it’s not Kedai to rely on that [opinion].”
You get no points for originality on this one.
It was actually Trump’s line in 2016. Speaking at the Al Smith dinner, he said (not a verbatim quote, but close enough):
Hillary and I really are very cordial with each other. In fact, when we bumped into each other, she said, “Pardon me,” and I told her, “Let’s talk about that once I’m in office.”
I don’t know much about the specific policy changes to which you refer, and what justification Barr claimed to make them.
While he has long been widely considered a man of integrity, I think you misunderstood my post.
I said he is “a Republican of impeccable credentials…,” by which I meant to highlight the absurdity of the way he is now being treated by Trumpists.
BLM and Antifa are criminals. The rioting, violence, looting, etc. that went on in the spring and summer should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, including going after all the politicians who supported it in any way.
I don’t know much about Iowa’s 2nd District. It would not surprise me in the slightest if the Democrats are trying to steal the election there. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if they had done so on the Presidential election.
I was simply wondering: Barr, who by all accounts is a Republican of the most impeccable credentials, and a member in good standing of the Trump administration, has stated that no evidence had been found of widespread fraud which could have affected the outcome of the election. How would the Trumpists deal with this?
You can point all over the map to distract from this point, but the answer is clear: Throw Barr under the bus.Health
I’ll concede that I didn’t articulate your particular strain of the “Throw Barr under the bus” position. I must note, however, that there is very little daylight between “lazily allowing the wholesale disenfranchisement of the American people,” and “conspiring with the perpetrators of the same,” so your position is not substantially different from the one you call absurd.
For all the demonizing attacks on him since he was appointed AG, I don’t think that Barr has ever been accused of laziness, even by his most vociferous detractors.
Would you ever entertain the possibility that he actually did his job, and the facts are that there is no evidence of widespread fraud which would change the result of the election?
For the record, I am a registered Republican. I wrote in a candidate in 2016 (who, incidentally, has still not conceded that election), and voted – very reluctantly – for Trump in 2020. More accurately, I voted against Biden in 2020.
I enjoy the fact that you have taken to using the President’s peculiar rules for capitalization. It really lends credibility to your arguments.
Giuliani (in response to Barr): “With all do respect, there hasn’t been the semblance of an investigation.”
So I guess it’s Option #1. Not really surprising.
It’s astounding that people like Rudy Giuliani and Sydney Powell would tie their otherwise stellar reputations to such a deadweight.
AG William Barr said that the DOJ has not discovered any evidence of widespread fraud.
The options for Trump and his supporters are:
1) Throw Barr under the bus. Call him a RINO and NeverTrumper who conspired with the DNC to steal the election.
2) Assert that the conspiracy was so well orchestrated that even Barr, with all the resources of the DOJ (which comprises, among other divisions, the FBI) was not able to find it, but it really did happen.
3) Concede that Biden won fair and square.
Any guesses about how this plays out?
@torahvaluesoverparty –
“First of all the point of this thread was to say that these lockdowns are unconstitutional.”You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. Without expressing my own, I would simply note that there is a legitimate debate to be had on the topic.
“There are many things in the Torah that would be deemed unconstitutional.”
What does the Torah have to do with the Constitution?
“Secondly, you all have to explain where the line is drawn. You all have to explain why, according to daas torah, one is permitted to drive a car when there is a risk to yourself, and others, in doing so. To me, the answer is simple. Hashem wants us to live a normal life. Not do crazy things that put one in danger. Driving a car a low risk. Not being careful with a plague such as Ebola is reckless.”
Correct. The line is שומר פתאים השם.
“But when we have virus with a 98% survival rate, those who are not at risk shouldn’t be stuck at home not feeding their families. Those who are at risk can be responsible to protect themselves as they see fit. I don’t think that living an abnormal life for a year straight, for no reason other than to please your local tyrant Democratic leaders, what Hashem wants.”
The point here is that the Torah requires us to follow the law, even if it is unreasonably restrictive. If the law requires us to lock down, the Torah requires us to follow suit. This is not because of health considerations, but because of דינא דמלכותא. We don’t have to like it, but we have to do it.
In all your talk, you still haven’t refuted the basic point that the Torah does not support the idea that liberty is more important than life.
@charliehall, of course you’re right. I was only using the phrase “Da’as Torah” because it had previously been used in this thread.
Just like you said, Judaism says nothing about our rights. The Torah speaks of our responsibilities and obligations. The “freedom” of the Torah, חירות על הלוחות, is the freedom to rise above the physical, subjective nature of man. It is the liberty to view ourselves and the world objectively, to serve Hashem without our own petty desires and selfishness getting in the way.
@commonsaychel, what are you referring to?
@torahvaluesoverparty, regardless of whether any specific restriction is justified, Patrick Henry was wrong. I’m not even sure I understand the point of your last post; do you mean to say that since certain politicians are pushing their own agenda, we should prefer to die than to listen to them? What do you think it meant to go back to מצרים? Is it worse to suffer the consequences of a lockdown than to endure the cruelty of פרעה?Honestly, sometimes I think people are so blinded by allegiance to their party that they conflate its platform with Torah values. What, then, of your username?
It seems to run counter to Da’as Torah.
Halacha prefers life to death in nearly all cases, however poor the quality of life.
Klal Yisrael said טוב לנו עבוד את מצרים ממותנו במדבר.It doesn’t improve your image to slur others.
This is one of the (many) things that DJT doesn’t understand. Biden demonstrated [again] in the first debate, as he has done many times over the years, that he doesn’t get this either.
It’s remarkable to me how the Presidency of DJT has caused so many otherwise rational people to behave in such demonstrably irrational ways, on both sides of the aisle.
True comity in politics has been missing for a long time (maybe since Washington’s second term), but the past four years have been on a level I’ve never seen before. I’m happy for it to end.
Cuomo’s spin on it was nothing more than political posturing. There is, unfortunately, no guarantee that NY will not return to the conditions which originally set these restrictions in motion. That they are currently relaxed is completely beside the point.
השם ישמרנו מכל נגע ומחלה
Charliehall –
““It’s easy to do from Venezuela if you have the computer manual.”
No it isn’t…”
I think se2015 was being rather facetious.
I hope your pickles were okay.
Ben Levi
Are you seriously making the argument that contemporary USA is an environment more disagreeable to Torah observant Jews than any other country in our long exile?
You really need to stop drinking that Kool-Aid.
The USA is, without comparison, the single most benevolent and amenable host whose hospitality we have enjoyed (or, in most cases, endured) since the Churban. Instead of repeating absurd talking points, we should make an effort to appreciate what we have, even as we pine to return home.
CTLawyer
You’re obviously an intelligent and successful person. While I don’t always (or even usually) agree with you on policy, I respect your opinion, which is typically expressed in the dispassionate tone of intellectual debate. The vitriol of emotional fighting does not become you. DJT is not worth you stooping beneath your dignity.
Charlie Hall –
I applaud you for doing business only with honest people, and I agree that you had a good reason to end your business relationship with that plumber.
I would just point out that the particular character flaw you mentioned is one which was directly related to the business aspect of your relationship with him. You didn’t fire him because of his vulgar language, which was silentmoishe’s point.
You are not even The Boy Who Cried Wolf.
You are Chicken Little.
CTL
Ah! I knew you must have a Mesorah!
Would you mind sharing your recipe? The few times I’ve tried pickling, it has not worked out well…
CTL
I agree that jarred pickles such as Vlasic (or even worse, Mount Olive) are inferior.
Fresh pickles such as Flaum’s or Batampte are better than any homemade pickles I’ve tasted.
Of course, the pickles you make are probably the best (I’d be glad to verify that if you want to send me some). I would expect no less.
Although, I must say, I was slightly disappointed that you did not provide your full family pickle-making legacy.
Yserbius is absolutely correct.
Cucumbers at least do not pretend to be what they’re not. Half sours are pickle wannabees.
Sorry for the typo
“impugn”
Politics as usual in America.
People talking right past each other, ignoring the basic fact that there is a legitimate debate to be had about the candidates.
But let’s not vilify each other or impune each other’s character or Torah observance because of something so unimportant as our political affiliation or voting intentions.
Wolf
To support your point:
Ron DeSantis won the 2018 gubernatorial race in Florida by 32,463 votes, less than half a percentage point. Unlike the governors of NY, NJ, and other states, DeSantis locked down nursing homes in early March, and at the same time took steps to ensure that nursing homes would have sufficient supply of PPE, ventilators, and so on.
It’s fair to believe that if Andrew Gillum (the Democratic candidate) had won, he would have followed the example of Cuomo and other Democratic governors in handling the Covid-19 pandemic, which would have resulted in the devastation of Florida’s nursing home population.
There are thousands of residents in nursing homes in Florida who are still alive today because of the few people whose votes put DeSantis on top.
Local elections are very important.
Wolf,
Whatever your shortcomings (which I’m sure are overstated), they are no excuse not to do the right thing from now on.
This includes the Chesed of saying Kadish as a zchus for the Neshama of your relative.
Black Bags Matter
What’s new is old.
CTLawyer –
I think that’s what he really meant. Whether DJT is reelected or not, Twitter is sure to retain prominence during his tenure, if for no other reason than that it is the President’s primary vehicle for what he considers communication.
[I personally doubt that Twitter will “lose prominence” soon after a new President is inaugurated, and I certainly don’t think it’s current prominence is questionable as 1 implied.]
I was spanked as a child. I don’t think it made much difference in how I turned out. It certainly did not fix the immediate problem my father wanted to stop.
My wife and I do not hit our children.
It is not better to hit than to yell. Both are wrong and ineffective, with very few exceptions.
It is better to allow children to suffer the consequences of their poor decisions. I do not mean to mislabel punishments as “consequences”. If a child makes a mess, s/he should have to clean it up. A child should know that if s/he doesn’t do what is expected, s/he won’t be able to do what s/he wants to do (play with friends, go on trips, etc.). Parents should express empathy while their children deal with these problems, but they should not “rescue” them.
Suppose that Chaim disregards his father’s instructions to wear a coat, and now Chaim is uncomfortable. Chaim’s father could [sincerely] say something like, “Oy, Chaim, I feel so bad that you’re cold. I’m also cold when I don’t bring my coat.” Dad should not buy him a new coat, or go back home to get his coat for him. Odds are that next time, Chaim will wear his coat.
This will work much better than spanking Chaim yelling at him, both of which will stop him from learning the real lesson he should learn, and instead provide him a scapegoat for his discomfort.
I haven’t read the book (nor do I intend to; I don’t really think Zionism is the issue for today).
That said, some quick thoughts about your question:
1. If the people to whom he refers had taken public stances on the issue, there doesn’t seem to be a problem of Lashon Hara unless his intent is specifically to publicize the fact that they had done something [he considers] wrong.
2. The Chofetz Chaim specifically notes that it is permitted to say, “Don’t follow the example of Ploni, who talks in Shul. He is doing the wrong thing.” Again, this heter (IIRC) is predicated on the question of intent. If, in saying so, your purpose is to use the example of Ploni as an instructional tool for your audience, you may say this. If your objective is to call attention to Ploni’s wrongdoing, you may not.
commonsaychel, it almost seems like you deliberately took my words out of context in order to post what seemed to you like a witty rejoinder.
Of course, what I said was that the services [these organizations] provide – not the salaries their employees earn – are the pride of our generation, which was to the point of the discussion about CEOs leading their organizations to success.
Coca Cola doesn’t market its product by advertising the CEO’s salary. One obvious reason for this is that, even if the CEO deserves his pay, that won’t motivate the consumer to choose their product over the competitor’s. They tell the consumer what he needs to hear: “Drinking Coke will make you appear to be the coolest person on the planet. You will always be ecstatic while drinking Coke. You will be surrounded by friends and celebrities, and you will drive the best cars. Also, Coke tastes really good!”
Likewise, a Kiruv organization shouldn’t market its CEO’s salary, no matter how well deserved. This is not what will motivate their potential donors. The marketing should be about how well they fulfill their mission, or about how cool it is to ride your bicycle to the mountains, or how great it is to play hockey, or whatever will bring in the cash.
I suspect you knew all of this.
To be clear, of course I think it’s important that non-profits should be fiscally responsible. Corruption is reprehensible and should have no place anywhere in our society, certainly not in Tzedaka organizations. I have no problem with people who research the financial dealings of these organizations. I think “sunlight” is healthy, and transparency is good.
All I was saying was that I agree with CTL that there is nothing inherently wrong with employees of non-profits earning generous salaries.
I’m not sure I agree that Tzedaka organizations are analogous to publicly owned companies as opposed to privately owned corporations.
Either way, the point is that if an executive excels at his job, he deserves an excellent compensation package (just as any employee does).
If the CEO of a Tzedaka organization delivers outstanding performance for his organization, and, in order to retain his services, they choose to compensate him accordingly, I would be very happy for them all.
We can debate the definition of “outstanding performance,” if you’d like. I just don’t think that the executive compensation package is a good barometer in and of itself. I think all the regular questions of finance and meeting goals, delivering goods and services, etc. that you would ask of any other company are just as valid for a non-profit.
If, for example, a Kiruv organization is financially sound, provides a robust Kiruv program, and successfully brings Jews back on to the Derech HaTorah (whatever numbers you would consider success), wouldn’t the CEO of that organization deserve a large salary and good benefits (obviously, relative to the size of the program)?
I’m not intimately familiar with the finances of the organizations you mentioned, but I do know that they (at least some of them) provide services that are the pride of our generation. They are tremendous operations with huge budgets. If the CEO deserves to keep his job, he probably also deserves a great compensation package.
I don’t remember ever agreeing so wholeheartedly with CTLawyer, but he’s absolutely correct.
If the CEO does a great job, he deserves a great salary. I don’t remember learning that human nature changes when you work for a good cause. Doctors are credited with humanitarian motivations in addition to their lucrative earnings, and there is no reason that people involved in non-profits shouldn’t enjoy the same benefit of the doubt.
unommin, even Moshe Rabbeinu was careful to have as much “sunlight” as possible, according to the Medrash.
Chazal (perhaps even quoted by Rashi, though I don’tsay that HKBH had a taina on Yaakov Avinu for “grabbing the dog’s ear,” and inciting Eisav (“He was going on his way, and you send him all these gifts, and call yourself his servant?!”)
IIRC, the Medrash makes clear that Klal Yisrael suffered the consequences of this misstep.In response to asimpleyid
Some people never miss an opportunity to denigrate “Others”. They are best ignored, unless there is a danger that their poison will infect the innocent.
Little Froggie +1
Although, if you’re playing Bavli, the rules are different…I was curious about this game even though I never heard of it. Thanks!
In Parshas Mishpatim (23:4), the Torah introduces the Mitzvah of Hashavas Aveida by characterizing the owner of the lost animal as “אויבך”, your enemy. Similarly, in the next Pasuk, the Mitzvah of P’rika (unloading), the owner is referred to as “שונאך”, someone you hate.
The Gemara famously explains that the “hated / enemy” must be a sinner whom we are permitted to hate.
It should be obvious that this must be a deliberate sinner, not a Tinok Shenishbah, or a Shogeg, or even a Chotei L’teiavon. We may only hate someone who is חוטא להכעיס. Nobody else can be described as משנאיך השם.
In Parshas Ki Seitzei (22:1-4), in the repetition of these Mitzvos, the owners are both referred to as “אחיך”, your brother.
The Meshech Chochma asks, how did my “hated / enemy” become my “brother”?
He says that permission to hate others on account of their sins is granted only to someone whose own record is without blemish. Parshas Mishpatim addresses Klal Yisrael prior to the Chet HaEigel, and so refers to the “hated / enemy”. Parshas Ki Seitzei addresses us after the Chet HaEigel, and so we may recognize only our “brother”.
So according to the Meshech Chochma, only an unblemished Tzadik may fulfill משנאיך השם אשנא. To the rest of us, ALL Jews are “brothers”.
After all, by what right do I consider myself superior to him? Do I in fact know that my own failings are of any less gravity than his? I don’t know what he’s done, or what mitigating factors may be considered on his behalf. But I am familiar enough with my own record…
2scents
Please, relax. CTL was responding to the insinuation that he didn’t respond because he had no response.I don’t know about CTL or anyone else, but I come here for a short of outlet, so it doesn’t matter what other work I do all day and for how much money; I get what I want from the CR.
Let’s not make this a place of personal attacks and vitrio
som1 –
“of course there is going to be a few racist cops, just like there are a small percentage of racist civilians.”
Do you really think there is a “small percentage of racist civilians?”
Try professortorah dot com
Reb Eliezer – a small, but, I think, important adjustment:
I don’t have the Klei Yakar with me at the moment, but if I remember correctly, his point was more about avoiding ostentatious displays of wealth than about the jealousy itself.
For people who do not work on their character (which includes the vast majority of humanity), jealousy is a normal emotion, especially when other people flaunt their riches. We cannot control the natural tendencies of the masses.
What we can control is our own behavior. The Klei Yakar interprets the Pasuk as advice for surviving Galus: Don’t incite the jealousy of the other nations.
The Klei Yakar is not saying, “the other nations persecute us because they’re jealous.” This would be a statement of an irrevocable fate.
He is giving us guidance for how to deal with exile: “If you don’t want the other nations to bother you, make sure not to poke them in the eye.”
Now if only we would listen…
“As you haven’t responded… based upon the principle of Shtika K’hodaah…”
Shtika in Beis Din is one thing. Shtika in the CR is something else. Often, one may choose not to reply because the salient points have already been made, and there is little value in spinning the wheels.
Old Crown Heights –
I agree with your main points. I just think that the “highest magnitude” is excessive hyperbole, and Halachically incorrect. The Chillul Hashem would have to be of a higher magnitude when it involves deliberately violating a Mitzvah in public.It’s silly (at best) to impute our own logic to HKBH. One reason people might do so is to comfort themselves.
Not participating in the census is, for some people, validation of what they were doing anyway.
If the reason for our current suffering were something else, that might affect their lives dramatically. Imagine if, for example, they would have to start actually keeping Hilchos Lashon Hara. This would represent a huge change for many people, one which they may not feel ready to undertake.
It’s easier if the problem is simple, like the census.
It’s exactly the same thing as blaming people who aren’t Torah observant. If it’s their fault, I don’t have to do anything to fix it, I just have to make it clear how terrible they are.