catch yourself

I love politics, and am a staunch conservative Republican. As such, I vehemently disagree with most of President Obama’s policies.

I also have friends on the other side of the political aisle who are equally emphatic in support of those policies. They, too, are B’nei Torah. Some are highly respected Rabbanim and Talmidei Chachamim.

Regardless of what Rush might have you believe, there actually are substantive positions deserving of consideration on both sides. No, President Obama does not hate America; no, he does not want to drive this country into oblivion; yes, he really believes that his policies are beneficial for the country as a whole, and can support his positions with cogent arguments [and no, he would not lose a debate to anyone in the CR, even without his teleprompter].

The important thing here is to realize that the President of the United States deserves our respect (even more than do all people) by virtue of the fact that he holds that office, not just for selfish reasons (hakaras hatov, chillul Hashem, future protection, et al).

There is a machlokes whether or not to pronounce the beracha [with Shem uMalchus] upon seeing the President, but it is universally recognized that he is to be respected.

It happens to be that any time we display disrespect for someone, the message our children get is not one of values (as in, “I disrespect those who are not consistent with my value system” – which would be bad enough), but one of irreverence (as in, “I don’t really need to respect anyone or anything”).

It is especially appalling when people in our community display outright racism and bigotry. These have no place in the heart and mind of a Torah Jew.

As a Rebbe, I don’t understand how it could be said that this discussion does not belong in a classroom; it is critically important for children to learn proper perspectives for life.

I absolutely disallow even the slightest hint of disrespect for any person in my classroom; I wish that my students’ parents would cooperate!

As Nechomah pointed out, there is Kedushas Shevi’is which applies to fruits of the current year.

It is important to note that vegetables are subject to the Issur S’fichin, by which vegetables grown in Eretz Yisrael during Shemitta are categorically prohibited for consumption.

Please discuss with your Rav before peeling another carrot.

LF, don’t bother.

Sam, I’m sure you mean well; you may even be a highly respected individual whose character would command the respect of all who read your words, if they but knew your identity.

Alas, your persona is unknown to us. We are therefore blissfully unaware of your great stature.

As such, your posts here (as well as in the thread to which you linked) come off as arrogant and condescending, and even borderline narcissistic. This, of course, has the exact opposite effect of your objective – instead of inspiring the masses to teshuva, these posts have fomented feelings of resentment, scorn and outright dislike.

Speaking for myself, I would be happy to be reminded by people in the CR (or anywhere) to refresh my Avodas Hashem; I appreciate that this is probably done with my own best interests at heart.

However, it must be done in such a way that it also has the appearance of having my best interests as its motivation. Otherwise, even the best efforts with the finest intentions will be wasted.

Like many other ideas, this sounds good until we consider the reality.

My own keriyah is excellent, and I am able to read Hebrew very quickly. I am highly familiar with Aramaic, and I understand and enjoy reading Targum Onkelos, which indeed enhances my understanding of many pesukim.

On a typical week, if I’m in a rush, I can complete shnayim mikra v’echad targum in about an hour for the entire parasha (without Rashi).

I am also a Rebbe in an upper elementary grade; I know my own students, and have done some informal research on the keriyah level of students outside my own community.

The fact is that most students would be overwhelmed with these assignments simply because their keriyah, even if it is accurate, is not as fluent as that of most adults. This means it would take them significantly longer to read even smaller selections. Add to this the fact that they do not understand Hebrew (let alone Aramaic), and nearly all elementary students would quickly become frustrated and fatigued by this task.

I am well aware of the theoretical benefits of such homework, however the reality is that for the vast majority of children these benefits will not be realized at all. Instead, students will waste whatever appetite they have for learning on meaningless and arduous exercises in futility.

If your son is one of the few exceptions, by all means, encourage him to do this – the school, however, must act in the best interests of the most students.

The well known story of Rebbe, Rav Chiya and the garlic is understood by the ????”? as precedent for the ???? that even ?????? ????? ???? ????? so as not to embarrass another person.

Switch shuls if you need to, but by no means humiliate another person – even if he did the wrong thing.

As with most minor annoyances, if you work to develop a positive relationship with this person you will find that these problems won’t bother you nearly as much, and perhaps not at all.

In general, it’s worth noting that the more accepting you are of other people’s bothersome and inconsiderate conduct, the better off you will be. Nobody benefits from tolerance more than its practitioner.

The Ramban explains Yaakov’s kissing Rachel with these words:

???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?”? ?? ????? ???”? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?????

The first peshat could be interpreted as referring to the fact that she was ????? ?????, but I think it is more likely that both peshatim are getting at the idea that it was not ??? ????.

Either way, it is dangerous to draw inferences for practical halacha from the narratives in Tanach. As with everything else, if you have a legitimate query about shaking hands with people of the opposite gender, ask your Rav.

Of course, as CA and kapusta point out, it is factually correct.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with this.

If, on the other hand, the body of the email would have included language aimed at giving the false impression that some sort of commitment had already been made, that would be outright deception. This has happened to me, in emails, regular mailings and phone solicitations.

Tzedaka organizations, take heed: We will not support this kind of trickery, no matter how worthy the cause.

To quote Rav Shamshon Rephael Hirsch (and many others), “In Judaism, the ends does NOT justify the means.”

Hmmm. Do we really suspect our doctors and pediatricians of being “in cahoots with Big Pharma” to the extent that they would deliberately endanger the lives of their patients to perpetuate the vaccine conspiracy?

Or is it that we believe them to be misled, apparently not intelligent enough to research the issues and draw their own conclusions? Or, perhaps, they simply do not care enough to do the research necessary to ensure that they continue to provide excellent care to their patients?

I am not a medical professional, and I do not have the education or time to research the issue of vaccines. Luckily for me, it would be a waste of time, since every single doctor I have ever asked has reacted with great passion about the danger of the anti-vaccine crowd. This includes pediatricians and specialists who are leaders in their respective fields, based not only on wide repute, but on their positions and peer reviews.

For one, Dr. Shanik, who is well known to be a great Tzadik and whose practice is (as far as I know this is still the case) the largest pediatric practice in the state of New Jersey, is a strong advocate of vaccines. Is he out to kill and maim Jewish children?

Come, now, this is ludicrous.

I’m completely lost with the whole discworld thing.

42, I guess that’s to say nothing of what they’re doing during chazaras hashatz…

Another Chakira:

The smallest measurable unit of time is reputed to be the amount of time between when a traffic light in NYC turns green and the car behind you honks.

I always thought it was the amount of time between when the chazan finishes chazaras hashatz and some fool shouts yisgadal on a non-Tachanun day.

Are these actually one and the same, or is one in fact shorter than the other? Does there exist equipment sophisticated enough to measure?

In any case, most people are more than astute enough to realize when others are talking about them, even if it is in another language. This makes it even worse.

As long as people continue to perpetuate the myth that abusive Rebbeim (as described by TLIK and Syag, among others) are commonplace, the real solutions to the problems of kids at risk and OTD will remain elusive.

The assertion that there are “schools which boast…” (I dare not repeat such words) is slanderous. It is a most egregious example of motzi shem ra, and should be removed from the post.

As a Rebbe, I am greatly offended by the cavalier and careless manner in which I and my colleagues are so often maligned.

The vast majority of today’s Rebbeim would never imagine the sort of abuse that has been described here as being possible. Personally, I have a hard time believing most of these stories. They are simply not realistic. The picture of a Rebbe who had invested so much into one student’s spiritual growth acting like an animal is completely incongruous, to say the least. That story sounds like something out of the pages of certain magazines which love to exaggerate and distort issues of abuse in the classroom and the home, ??? ?????? ??????.

It’s a good thing this is an anonymous forum; otherwise, I would not be able to say the following, for fear of the appearance of self-serving arrogance:

The Rebbeim in classrooms today are warm, caring, loving individuals whose concern for their students is very nearly equal to that for their own children. They live and breathe their talmidim’s welfare 24/7. They NEVER resort to corporal punishment, and rarely (if ever) say more than a harsh word to a student, and this only after many, many attempts to diffuse a situation before it gets that far.

This is not to say that every Rebbe is perfect every day. When I have made mistakes in the management of my classroom, I have acknowledged as much to the class. I am not proud to say that this has happened once or twice over the years (and no, it never came near anything that anyone would label “abuse”). I am proud to say that when it did, I candidly admitted my mistake, and apologized publicly to the boy whom I had treated without the proper respect.

Yes, as a Rebbe, I treat my students with respect. As the Rambam rules.

I know many Rebbeim, in my own school, in the other schools in my community and in other communities throughout the country. All of them fit the description above. None of them would ever imagine abusing a student, physically or verbally.

This is not to say that there are no bad apples; it is to say that the bad apples in today’s chinuch system are very few, and very far between.

You’d better be careful if you don’t know where you’re going – you may never get there.”

(another Yogi Berra classic)

[Visiting a patient in the hospital, two days after the removal of a brain tumor] “So…how big was it?”

Lesson learned: “Patching” does not work (at least not for these children). I am not fanatically opposed to corporal punishment (AT HOME – obviously absolutely unacceptable by anyone other than parents!), but it needs to be very well thought out. In most cases, the best reason not to use corporal punishment is that it is ineffective. This is because it is usually not the result of a proactive and thought out parenting plan, but a reactive way of trying to force children to act in a certain way.

I don’t see what there is to be gained by responding to this incident in a vacuum. The three year old probably has heard, “if you…then I will…” countless times from his parents, and is simply following their example. Let this one slide. The focus needs to be on cultivating the appropriate respect on the part of the parents.

This father needs to engage in a long-term plan to reestablish his parental authority, without resort to hitting his children. Don’t pretend to have all the answers; read some parenting books, develop your personal method of parenting, and be relentlessly consistent about its implementation.

This is not about mussar. It is about when and how we allow situations to develop which present us with a choice between two evils.

Generally speaking, people make compromises and “choose between the lesser of two evils” only when, fundamentally, they consider both “evils” acceptable choices. This was the point of the analogy to a lawyer. For the lawyer, this choice simply does not exist – he must be on time, and he must wear a tie.

Here is another analogy: A bachur in yeshiva may want to choose the lesser of two evils: Skip breakfast (thereby compromising his ability to learn) or come late to seder (so he can eat). The fact is, he should wake up earlier. Several years later, the same individual (now married with children, and not afraid he might be asked to do gelilah) will never have a problem waking up on time for the early minyan. All that changed is whether his new situation allows for the choice to exist.

Obviously, there are exceptional cases where it is impossible to avoid such a situation; these, however, are few and far between. Most often, the choice only arises because the person’s value system allows this to happen. ????? ?? ?????.

If a Rebbe comes late or without a tie several times in his career, that’s probably due to circumstances beyond his control. [Incidentally, in such a case, I would probably go without a tie]. If it happens often enough that he wants to know what to do next time, that’s probably because one or both of these things is not important enough to him.

Not mussar; just objective analysis.

He should go early with a tie. How should a lawyer show up to an important court case – early without a tie, or late with one?

One of the premier mechanchim of our generation put it this way –

“When it comes to a Rebbe’s timeliness, the rule is:

Better never than late!”

I think it is obvious that a Rebbe must project the respect he has for his students and his position, certainly no less so than any other professional. You need to be on time. You need a tie.

If you recognize the truth of the Torah, you know that it really is not a choice. You are Hashem’s creation, His slave. You owe Him your existence, and He demands your compliance with His Law.

This is the reason to serve Him ??? ?? ??? ???? ???. You are to serve because that is who you are; you are to have a slave mentality, which means that you are not to have the capacity of thinking about personal gain. There is to be no such thing as personal gain in your world.

If you (like nearly all other people) are not yet at the level where you can completely identify with this ideal, you are encouraged to serve Him ?? ??? ???? ???.

???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ??

This is more or less how Rav Chaim Volozhiner explains the Mishna (as I remember it):

Obviously, we are required to serve Hashem whether we like it or not. As our Creator and Master, He has total rights over what we do, and we must obey.

If a person can not motivate himself to serve Hashem without thought of reward and punishment, then he should serve based on that motivation (????? ????? ??? ????).

This is not someone who can rightfully be called an eved at all. Hopefully, be’ezras Hashem, he will eventually reach the level of serving simply because it is what Hashem “wants” (????? ??? ???? ?? ????).

On a deeper level, one may argue that Hashem “wants” to reward us, so serving with thought of reward should qualify as lishma.

In fact, this is true, but only if the thought of reward is purely intended to satisfy Retzono Yisbarach. For most people, this is not possible.

There were some “Avadim” (slaves who served because it satisfied their Master’s Will) who were able to incorporate thought of reward into their service in this way. Outstanding individuals such as Moshe Rabbeinu, Avraham Avinu and David Hamelech were ????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???.

The Mishna cautions us not to try to emulate their example, since for most people it would be counterproductive. Of course, we should strive to be Avadim (slaves, who serve not out of any thought of personal gain, but because they must obey their Master), but we should be content with the status of ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???, which is the lower of the two.

I said catch yourself, not trick yourself…

Just wondering…

Did my own previous posts in this thread also sound like the infamous Joseph?

Gavra –

I don’t know who Joe is or why you thought that I am he; I most certainly am not.

I noticed that you don’t have a response to my point. Offhand dismissal of a cogent point is a favorite technique of successful debaters, but it does not prove anything.

I don’t know to which Israeli Rosh Yeshiva it is that you refer; nor did you deign it necessary to provide any context to the statement he supposedly made. All I can say is that I never heard any such divisive rhetoric from my own Rebbeim (in well known Yeshivos, none of which are mentioned in your most recent post). On the contrary, many of my friends from Yeshiva are now working as lawyers, doctors, accountants and in many other occupations. Some are selling insurance or mortgages; others are laying tiles and fixing pipes. Some spent several years in Kollel before finding a job; others spent only one or two years in Beis Medrash after High School.

Far from being considered “second class citizens”, all of them are highly respected in their communities (and most live in Lakewood) as B’nei Torah with great integrity and commitment to values. All this with the encouragement and support of their Rebbeim. Some of them happen to be their Rebbeim’s own children, whose fathers pushed them “out of the Beis Medrash” with both hands.

The fact is that there is a lot of ignorant and hateful talk which gets in the way of the truth.

We can have a debate about the issues, but not with inflammatory arguments. That’s not a debate, it’s a fight.

Lior –

I always thought a red herring was a completely unimportant detail which is brought up to obfuscate an issue. The claim that “in certain circles” it seems that they believe the entire nation should be in Kollel is far from a red herring. It is a deliberate and vicious misrepresentation of the position of the Gedolei Yisrael who are the leaders of said “certain circles”, which is intended to undermine the authority of Torah leadership.

The only way I am able to give the benefit of the doubt to those who spew this vitriolic rhetoric is to assume that they have been misled by others as to the belief system of “certain circles”. It is possible that they do not consciously intend to undermine the Gedolim; they do not realize that the reason this claim appeals to them is that by undermining the authority of Torah leadership, it frees them from what they perceive to be a restrictive lifestyle.

In any case, it is a dangerous assertion which necessarily alienates a great number of people. No wonder the resentment…