cantoresq

Since I’ve been criticized for focusing on scholarship and not recreational reading, I.J. Singer’s novels are quite entertaining. But one must remember that he took a jaundiced eye to religion and even his portrayals of Orthodox culture is fiction.

Nothing in the original post mentions “recreational reading.” What does that mean? How mamy poly-sybolic words need a book have to no longer be recretional? Secondly, this thread is rife with laudatory comments about the various books people recomend. Why am I not entitled to do the same? As to the “taboo” nature of the books, I didn’t know that Horeb or Mavo haTalmud are taboo. BTW is the Feldheim translation of the Mavo HaTalmud, the edition lacking an acknowledgemnt of its true author, also taboo? I seem to recall alot of guys in yeshiva reading it. Now please pay attention. I’m writing this very slowly so even you will understand. I was making fun of that Rosh Yeshiva. It seems Sidney Sheldon was ok with him, but the Rav Zt”l was not. Talk about “krumkeit” and “skewed versions of religion.” I don’t so much care that he opposed me reading The Halachik Man, but then what gives with not caaring about Sidney Sheldon? Then again my roommate wore a hat and I didn’t, so I guess the Rosh’s tacit approval of the book made reading it ok as it was “under rabbinic supervision.”

While we’re on the topc of important Jewish books. No serious library should be without the Hertz Chumash. It is the single greatest English language refutation of the documentray hypothesis written for a layman. It’s a shame no one has undertaken to update it in light of developments in Bible study since its publication; especially since JPS now buys into much of the secular scholarship. But I guess “dah ma shetashiv” is one those incipient “krumkeits”

Bookworm, most of what I’ve listed are lighter reading, and even the serious scholoarship is not typicall read in the Beth Medrash. I read Horeb at night before going to sleep when I was in college. The Chajes books I read in schul Shabbat mornings when bored with the davening. Halachik Man I also read in my spare time when in yeshiva in Israel (whew was the Rosh Yeshiva mad at me for that one; madder then he was about the Sidney Sheldon novel my roommate was reading when he did the raid). Just becuase one puts his feet up, doesn’t mean the quality of what he reads needs to diminish. I never read fiction, with the exception of Kurt Vonnegut and Tom Wolfe, which are more in the line of social commentary.

Other important basic titles include R.S.R. Hirsch’s Horeb, and his Nineteen Letters of Ben Uziel and R. Zwi Hirsch Chajes’ Mavo HaTalmud and his Darkei haHora’ah. For a nice portrait of inter war American Orhthodoxy, I suggest Jenna Weisman Joselit’s New York’s Jewish Jews as well as Gurock & Schachter A Modern Day Heretic, a biography of Mordecai Kaplan. I’ll post other titles and they pop into my head.

Actually Mepal, I don’t get your point. School is not a place where one learns all one needs to know. School is where one acquires the skills to learn for the reast of one’s life. With the exception of my refusal to attend an intermarriage, no matter how important the person getting marriaed might be to me, I can’t think of a single opinion I had at 18 with which I wholly agree today. I’ve learned much more since finishing school than I could ever have in school. I’ve never read anything my Akiva Tatz. As to R. Avigdor Miller’s writings, I can’t deal with the cognitive dissonance he creates. His inspirational writings don’t jive with his often provocative oratorical rhetoric. Which was the essence of the man?

Good reading should stimulate thought. As far as the term “basic,” I meant basic in terms of those books which enable the reader to formulate his/her own views on Judaism.

flatbush27, it must be so mind boggling frustrating for you to see the entire world going to he– in a handbasket. If only people could just do what you tell them, life would be so much better.

I used to work as the hotel chazzan for a tour company in Los Angeles. It was fun, and the hotels were nice. But I gave it up when my oldest kid started first grade, and wanted to participate in the maggid beyond Mah Nishtanah. The older crowd who attended the cantor led seder didn’t have paitence to hear a six year old read the Hagaddah a little too slowly. So now we stay home, I make Kiddush and my kids read the Haggadah until they get tired, and then I take over. We miss the oppulence and the ease of just locking the door and getting on a place without having to turn the house upside down. But, the trade off of seeing the kids read and enjoy the Seder so much, is its reward too. Foregoing a vacation in the name of chinuch is just another sacrifice we make as parents.

gavra-at-work, your ideas, while harsh, have merit. They do not however address the tuition issues vis-a-vis the more modern schools which are not populated by kollel families, but have exorbitant tuitions. There is something very wrong when providing our children with a firm grounding in a Torah based school of thought, becomes too expensive for all but the most wealthy.

Thank you kiruvwife. I very much appreciate your kind words. The Netziv has an interesting essay on the Akeidah. He writes that Abraham had a dilemma as G-d was being inconsistent. On the one hand He commended that Abraham offer his son as a sacrifice. On the other hand, there is an issur in the Torah of “et bincha at titein laMolech,” that the Torah prohibits child sacrifice. Abraham, not hvaing a ready solution, relied on the 13th hermeneutic of R. Yishmael: “Vchein shnei ketuvim hamakchishim zeh at zeh ad sheyavo hakatuv hashilishi v’tachriah beineihem” when two verses in the Torah contradict one another, a third verse will resolve the contradiction. Thus Abraham did as he was told, and waited for the deus ex machina to resolve the Divinely created contradiction. I’m doing the same. On the one hand I’m obligated to do everything in my power to provide a torah education for my children. On the other, the same body of Halacha seemingly prohibits me from using all my skills to do so. I’ll continue exploring whatever avenues are apparent and G-d will have to do the rest. That resolution might take the form of my winning the lottery, or caming into some other cash windfall, it may come in the form of lowered tuition. It just might even come in the form of a heter from a well regarded posek to sing in a church on Sundays. I wouldn’t go to a non-Orthodox schul unless there was a halachik basis to allow me to do so. But I will explore every possibility, hoping G-d takes pity on me.

Joseph, certain yeshivot charge less because they offer less. I have a number of friends who send their children to a certain school in my area simply because it’s cheaper. These people know that the school offers a sub-stanfard secular education than other options, but feel they have no choice. I for one would not send my children to that school. My decision is not based on the sub-standard secular education, but rather my sense of integrity. The school in question has a television contract that all parents are required to sign. Many who sign it, maintain their televisions despite their commitment to not have one. Certain other families do that and also lie about their lifestyle. The wives have a sheitle to wear to school events, but otherwise go with their hair uncovered. I have two televisions in my home and do not hide it. My wife does not cover her hair, except in schul, and I make no pretense about it. I see no point in lying or pretneding to be something I am not in order to send my children to yeshiva. Should it come to it, I’d rather officiate in a Conservative synagogue, tell my children that I have no choice but to compromise my religious obervance in this way in order to send them to yeshiva, than lie; something that cannot be justified or explained to children so that it makes sense. My hope is that the honesty I display will carry the day. I hope you never have to make that choice. But I assure you if you do, I would never condemn you for your decision.

SJSinNYC’s description of her life, is pretty close to mine. Part of why my wife and I decided to stop having children after three was the economics of it. There is no doubt in my mind that yeshiva education will become completely unaffordable to me, if costs all round keep rising. I expect that within two or three years, unless some relief comes my way, either my children will not be in yeshiva, or I will have recieved a heter to be the cantor of a non-Orthodox congregation. I can’t work more during the week, and the only other money making skill I have is my voice.

In respose to tzippi’s suggestion that I ask for a tuition break, I’m not eligible. My wife and I make a combined six figure income. But we bought our house at the top of the market, and have a big mortgage (not a big house, just a big mortgage). We can’t re-finance it as we’re upside down given the reverses in the market. Additionally, in times of less income, we did accumulate considerable debt, which we’re are paying off. But on paper, given our incomes, the yeshiva would not give us a break. There are others in worse shape than us seeking the breaks.

It should be ever apparent that the current model of funding yeshivot is no longer working. The chasm between the “haves” and the “have nots” is growing ever larger, the proportion of people who require tuition assistance is growing, and the wealthy of the community are as wealthy as they once were. At the same time, tuitions and other costs are RISING. Already we see attempts at finding other ways to provide Jewish education. The charter school in Florida and the Hebrew language track in the Englewood public schools are examples. The Jewish Week has run a number of stories about mainstream Orthodox families who are opting out of yeshiva for their children due to the huge cost. The problem will only grow worse. I for one, foresee a return to Orthodox children attending public schools are supplemental Talmud Torahs. While there will always be people who are totally committed to yeshivas education for their children, Orthodox will have to make room for children who parents either can’t afford such and education or are unwilling to sacrifice beyond a certain point to pay for it. For the sake of this discussion, I’ll posit a question I’ve been mulling in my head for a few years. Like many people, i can barely afford the tuition for my two children in school, When our youngest starts school, our oldest will be starting high school. I have no idea how I’ll pay for it. My wife and I don’t live high at all, and there is very little, if any fat, to trim from our lifestyle. There is no doubt that we need to increase our income. I am a trained chazzan. Would I be allowed to take a cantorial position in a Conservative congregation to pay tuition?

Is it is tznius to talk to someone in the street? Why is using a phone any different?

Mayan_Dvash, enough to know of what I speak.

syriansephardi

Member

Which of shwekeys songs are taken from a non jewish tune???

Ames: my teacher (who is one of the gedolei hadors grandaughter) taught us that its the TUNE of the song that gets to the heart, the words do too but the tune has a bigger affect

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Or as the einikel of the Apter Rebbe said: “It’s not the text of Kol Nidre than matters, rather it’s the melody.”

Yiskay, I’ll ignore the implied impugning of both my veracity and my sister’s modesty. The story I related, is but one example of the lack of basic consideration one encounters in frum shopping establishments. How bad can I be expected to feel for the local grocer who refuses to accept returns for spoiled mechandise? How much pity shall I have for the clothing store that won’t exchange an item bought the previous day for a child that doesn’t fit right? Another story: This past Dec. 25th, my wife went to the local Kosher grocery to shop for Shabbat. My wife is the type of person who strikes up a conversation with virtually anyone. There is one non-Jewish cashier with whom she is rather friendly. That day this cashier was working, despite it being one of her “high holidays.” My wife said hello and wished her a happy holiday. Being a bit more comfortable around my wife, this girl told my wife that she had no holiday. The night before she was in the store until 11:00 p.m. stocking shelves, was too tired to join her family for services, and the store owner made her come to work that day since it was a Thursday and he needed her. He could care less about her holiday. Where was the basic respect for one’s employee? I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who treats others with such callousness. The Mishne in Avot says: “Mitzvah goreret mitzvah v’aveirah goreret aveirah” Most people superficially read that mishne as some sort of accounting mechanism. To me it’s far more. I look at it as a basic social contract. Act decently towards people when they need it(mitzvah) and people, not necessarily the same people, but people will act decently toward you when you need it (goreret mitzvah). The Mishne promises us that the converse is also true.

So Will Hill after stirring up the hornet’s nest, and then sitrring it up some more, you now think that this issue is best left not discussed on this blog eh? I recall a certain Mishne in Chagiga which describes a wise person as one who possesses foresight to see the consequences of his actions. The lack of it, seems then to indicate wisdom’s converse.

Personally I found this entire thread inane beyond belief. To be sure there are statements in the Shulchan Arukh regarding how men and woman should appear in public, what is appropriate and who takes priority in a vacuum. But none of those statemens is meant to supplant basic decency. As I put it before, the issue should not be “Am I allowed to hold open the door for a woman?” Rather, the issue is “How can I best express kavod habriot in a Halachikly accepted manner?” Are people looking to use the Shulkchan Arukh as a tool to denigrate people, or as a means to elevate us all?

It’s interesting. I have no memory of my father ever holding a door open for my mother. He may have done it, and I didn’t notice, but I have no memory of it. For purposes of this thread, I’ll be dan him l’caf zchus as defined by Will_Hill and assume he never did so as it’s proscribed by the Shulchan Arukh. (Not that my father lived his entire life according to the minutae of the Shulcha Arukh, but I’m making a point). Probably he didn’t do it. Indeed he was, in certain ways, a very gruff man; brilliant and compassionate and a fiercely devoted providor for his family, but in many every day mundane ways, insensitive to the people around him. I do however have vivid memories of him being mechabed my mother. He stood up when she entered the room. He never began to eat until she was seated at the table and had herself begun to eat. He said Eishet Chayil twice on Friday nights; once for the tradition of saying it and once specifically for his wife. Will’s charge to eschew chivalry out of deference for Halacha is wrong not because it goes too far, but becuase it does not go far enough. Whether to open a door for one’s wife is not the issue. The issue is for each individual to serach out and find appropriate ways of demonstrateing love and respect for one’s spouse. That’s a point Will failed to make.

cantoresq

“Not pashut, why do you define success only politically? “

cantoresq, why do you define success only financially?

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I didn’t. I referred to the intelectual output of the Dati Leumi community, as well as the strength of their yeshivot. But I might point out that financial health is far more important to the future of a community than is political prowess. The Mishne says “Im ein kemach ein Torah.” It says nothing about political muscle.

Not pshut, why do you define success only politically?

cantoresq,

“The Rav zt”l said it the the best when he decided to leave the Agudah and join the Mizrachi. He said that gedolim of the Agudah repreented the glorious but fading Jewish past.”

With all due respect to R’ Soloveitchik Ztz”l, anyone who doesn’t now see that the Mizrachi movement is dying a quick death while the glorious tradition of chareidi jewry is growing by leaps & bounds is either living in a cave or in Bellvue.

All the other Gedolim have been proven correct.

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1. Let’s see how well that glorious tradition weathers the current economic crisis. I’ve heard of kollelim unable to pay the avreichim. People are starving as a result of that “glorious tradition.” 2. In what way is religious Zionism dying? As far as I can tell it’s thriving. Hesder yeshivot continue to flourish. As opposed to the daily appeals I get from this chareidi mossad or that chareidi kollel, I have yet to hear of a single dati leumi institution suffering in this economy. Other institutions associated with religious zionism like Bar Ilan University are doing well, enrollments are up. The Dati Leumi community continues to produce high level scholarship from places like the Mossad Harav Kook, Machon Meir, Zomet etc. Where is the quick death to which you allude?