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Jothar, I just saw your post. Thank you for your kind wishes. I don’t however observe Yom Nicanor as it has been supplanted by Purim and Taanit Esther. My interest in the now defunct festival is purely historical.
Yoeli in Satmer, Menachem Mendel, Chaya Mushke and Shneur Zalman in Lubavitch.
I wrote an article about this in the Jewish Action (Spring, 2008). Indeed the Young Israel and the yeshiva movements had much to do with the problem, as did economics.
I disagree with Helfgott on a number of points. He ignores the fact there is really no substantive difference between davening according to the rules of nusach and “chazzanut” It’s all chazzanut, some of it more florid than others. (After all can someone clearly, based upon firm criteria define the clear difference between the commonly used terms “ba’al tefila” and “chazzan?”) I therefore submit that far more than 10% of a schul population enjoy chazzanut, since most people expect to hear nussach in some form or another. I also submit that as one moves further and further to the right on the religious spectrum, nussach is increasingly important, with a number of exceptions due to overwhelming ignorance amongst the masses of nussach. Additionally, the issue of the impiety of cantors has been exagerated. Kwartin, for example, was not completely unobservant. At least publicly he was shomer Shabbat. MK was a shomer Torah u’mitzvos, as was Yosselle, Sholom Katz, David Roitman, Berele Chagy, Jacob Rappaport, Leib Glantz and many many others. I believe that chazzanim get such a bum rap is due to the post WWII abandonment of the cantorate by Orthodoxy. Cantorial services came to be associated with non-Orthodoxy. (Parenthetically, I know nothing of the “cherem” to which Cantor Helfgott refers. Pinchas Minkowsky was against cantors making recordings as he felt doing so was degrading to chazzanut. He was strident in his attacks on Sirota in this regard. But that’s an entirely different issue.) Aditionally, there is a third classification between “spritual” and “entertainment.” We can call it traditional, culturally appealing, or aesthetically appealing. That is what chazzanut done in schul in fact is. It is the traditional way Ashkenazim davened for centuries. Some chazzanim were more elaborate in their presentations and some less so. That tradition made a significant contribution to Jewish culture, and thus maintaing chazzanut in our schuls preserves aspects of Jewish culture, and there is nothing wrong with that. And when done properly, in a thought out and organized fashion, it is aesthetically pleaseing.
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If I know specifically what someone observes, I reference the holiday, be it Chanukah, Kwanzaa, Christmas or Festivus (for all you Seinfeld fans). Otherwise, it’s happy holidays.
The De Sola Pool siddur has it as “libi” as do most Yemenite siddurim. I’ve seen both girsaot in texts of the Zohar. The Rav zt”l maintained that it’s “libi” As to other recorded errors, Raza d’Shabbos is replete with errors in the Hebrew. Pinchik recorded it as a sound test, and sang ti by heart. But it sounded so good they published it.
Both Sol and Paul Zim were students of MK. He wrote a letter on their behalf to Binyamin Ungar, the chazzan at the Great Synagogue in Tel Aviv asking him to teach them. BTW, their’s is a famous sibling rivalry in the cantorial world.
Sol Zim is a very good cantor. I haven’t heard him daven, but friends of mine, real cognescenti, have. They tell me it was marvelous,
A600KiloBear, I’m not all the well versed in sephardic chazzanut. Somewhere in my library I have a chart of the makamot, and I’ve listened to some Joe Amar. But beyond that and some passing familiarity with some melodies used in Shearith Israel, it’s terro incognita for me.
Well, as R. Yoilsih once said “Nach Williamsburg is kein Amerika.”
Shicoff had a great voice, but in my opinion he wasn’t much of a chazzan. Tucker was a far superior chazzan. BTW the Yiru Eineinu was by Secunda, as was virtually every piece Tucker recorded.
Altermirrer as far as I know, the Kel Moleh after the Kielce pogrom was his own.
cherrybim, the reference is to a live Pinchik davening on R”H.
The Mah Godlu sung my M.K. is by Leo Low.
The Pinchik R”H is around. Ask any real meivin and I’m sure he has it.
I don’t understand something. If Uncle Tom’s Cabin was good eough R. Eliyahu Dessler, why do we need to create a whole new genre of frum literature?
I believe that the Bracha for Hallel was by Steinberg. I don’t believe M.K. composed any of the big concert peices in his repertoire. But that’s not an exact statement either. While the Aneinu was by Kotlowitz and the Esa Einai by Yardeni and the Hatei by Schorr, etc., M.K. so significantly modified those peices and eltered them to suit his voice, that they are arguably new peices entirely, but based on other pieces.
Kwartin did not sing the Eisenstadt Shomo. That was his own. Eisenstadt’s was sung by Sirota first, then M.K.
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Falsetto refers to a tone produced without the vibration of the full vocal cords. It is a disconnected sound, usually very breathy. It’s used mainly by rock singers, crooners and poor vocalists. Personally, I don’t like the sound. Those chazzanim who sing in the bel canto style don’t use it. Rather they use the head register (kop shtime) to produce a very reedy sound, but one that still has vibratto and is connected to the other vocal registers.
Yosselle probably gave his best on Yom Kippur, Kol Nidre night. But there were other chazzanim of that era I would go to hear over him; namely Hershman, or Steinberg or Sirota.
The Aneinu was by Max Kotlowitz. He composed it in memory of Yossele Rosenblatt. MK took the piece and significantly altered it
Mezonos Maven
Member
ron, In Europe the barriers were steeper and meeting and matching even more regulated. Unfortunately in this American golus many gedarim have broken down.
Posted 3 hours ago #
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Huh? I’ve already posted that my grandfather was already engaged to someone when he went to meet my grandmother, simlpy to help a poor shadchan make some money. How strict could things have been? The Kleinvardeiner Rav, and Kisvarda was a MAJOR kehilla in Hungary was m’shadeich his daughter to a regular ba’al habos; and not even a wealthy one. Show me a “choshuve rov” these days who would do likewise. The chareidi shochet in Salgotajrian married his daughter to a Neologue Hebrew tutor. That wouldn’t happen these days. so MM what are you talking about?
I too have heard that Shir hama’alot sung by Rosenblatt was by Minkowsky. D.M. Steinberg was known to compose pieces for chazzanim. BTW, Dovid Koussevitsky’s Hmaavir Bonov was based on Steinberg’s rendition.
Altermirrer, My definition of frum is shomer Shabbat and Kashrut.
Roitman did compose both those numbers. There is a well known fable that Roitman sued Rosenblatt over his recordings of them. I’ve tried, via Westlaw, to find a record of the case and came up with nothing. Moreover, while I’m not an expert in copyright, I don’t think there is a basis at law for a suit. Many peices recorded by Rosenblatt were composed by others, like the Zemachson’s Lo Sachmod. People somehow have the mistaken notion that chazzanim who were themselves composers ONLY sang their own material. It isn’t true. Kwartin, for example, sang many of Sulzer’s compositions when at the amud. Rosenblatt sang Rovner’s music at the amud. Ganchoff sang Alter and Rappaport’s music and outright patterned certain of his compositions after Rappaport’s versions of the same text. The only chazzan I know who flat out refused to sing anything he did not compose was Glantz. And even he once recorded Schlossberg’s R’tze.
There were more religiously observant chazzanim than Rosenblatt and Schorr. Roitman was frum and a talmid chochom. Same for D.M. Steinberg, Mandelbaum, Kapov Kagan, Eshel, Dlin, Lind (the father), Rovner, Sholom Katz, Yosef Mandelbaum, Minkowsky, Glantz, M.K., and Simcha K. I have it pretty good authority that the overwhelming majority of post WWI european chazzanim who took Conservative pulpits were, themselves frum; people like Moshe Taube, or Louis Klein. They took those jobs because there were no other positions. I also have been told that Kwartin was shomer Shabbat, at least in public. His son, Saul, was a member of an Orthodox schul in Stamford, and walked when we went to schul every Shabbat. While Ganchoff and Pinchik were not frum, they did prefer the Orthodox schuls over the Conservative.
Malavsky was a beautiful chazzan. His love of the music is manifest in every composition he recorded. As to his making it a “family business” including his daughters, his doing so kept his kids Jewishly connected. They went on to raise Jewish families and did not assimilate. Any ehrlich father would do likewise.
Oysher was a great. He fused jazz scat singing and nussach, demonstrating that nussach, in the hands of a master is ageless.
Rosenblatt, like Glantz, Ganchoff, Pinchik, Chagy, Aroni and a host of other great chazzanim, in the current market, given current tastes, wouldn’t get a job as a chazzan sheni in a 30 member shtible on a Monsey side street. At least not in any Orthodox schul.
Ganchoff was famous for his dislike of the Koussevitzkys. It was more then a critical observation though, and was a personal issue. MK did not give Ganchoff the respect he felt he deserved. David was a bit more friendly to Ganchoff, as they were colleagues in the CA, and moved in similar professional circles. The truth is there is alot of validity to Ganchoff’s point. Musicality, interpretation of the text, creative use of nussach now take a back bench to mind numbing high notes, even ossia ones and ersatz kvetching. The MK imitators ruined chazzanut in their rarification of it. It became boring and turned people off. Perhaps had Ganchoff’s creativity held more sway we wouldn’t see the antipathy towards chazzanut that we see today.
I haven’t listened to Shlisky in years. I don’t know who is main composer was. I’m no so sure that the MK tapes were spun.
Karniol was nothing like Chagy. Karniol was a bass who developed a contra-tenor like sound, Chagy was a fluke. technically he was a tenor, but his vioce defies real categorazation. Karniol, and to a lesser degree Yeshayeh Meisels represented the end of the pre-Sulzer free style chazzanut, and the transition to more symmetrically laid out compositions. By the time chagy came on the scene, some sixty or seventy years later, Orthodox cantorial music had moved from the Sulzer styled set compositions of, say, Gerowitsch, Rovner, Baruch Schorr and Minkowsky to the style the defined the “golden age.” That style was melismatic and resemlbed free style chazzanut, but was in fact organized and metered. Additionally, like his music, Karniol did not pay much attention to textual issues like punctuation or syntax. Sulzer restored those considerations, and after him, no cantor could ever ignore them. Glantz and others like Alter and Leibush Miller then added the layer of using the music to interpret the text.
But the GSP is the fastest way there, usually
I believe that Glantz’s Dror Yikra is a Talner niggun. Glantz was very influenced by Chassidic dveikut melodies, and was from a Talner family. Then again an old friend of my mother’s, a professor in Bar Ilan University, told me it’s a Munkaczer melody. My money is on Talne.
My favorite among the current crop of cantors (aside from me hehe) is Yanky Lemmer. He has great talent and takes the time to learn the technical aspects of the art. He is not your typical zoger wannabe/poor imitator. I also like Simon Cohen.
I think the easiest way to get in Lakewood is via the Garden State Parkway. It works if one is married or single.
Indeed I forgot to mentio Chagy’s falsetto, which sounded like a song bird. As to using reviews, the scholarly literature is full of such material, especially the CA journal. And yes Gklantz’s Kol Hashem is a great piece. My favorite of those six first recordings are the Ein Keerkecho, which is a wonderful demonstration of bringing out the major cadences in a pieces written in the Yishtabach minor and the Ki Hinei Kachomer, which molds the myxolidian nussach masterfully. However, in my opinion the best piece Glantz ever recorded was his Uvenucho Yomar. The first cantor’s solo at kohanecho is so regal and majestic, it always puts a picture of what I believe the Kohen Gadol looked like on Yom Kippur when he first emerged from the kodshei Kodshim, lavush b’tzedek and klal Yisrael singing in celebration.
I think the piece davy refers to is the Mizmor before Lechah Dodi. The Oz Leamo section always stuck out in my mind. Chagy was a great cantor. His improvisational skills, coupled with one of the fastest coloraturas made him thrilling to listen to. Rosenfeld just doesn’t do it for me, although he is quite musical. He should try to develop his voice more.
I can analyse a chazzan based on a good review if the review is written by a real meivin, and I am familiar with the chazzan. For example, I have a sense of how Sulzer must have sounded based on the reviews of his davening by Edouard Heinslich and Franz Schubert. since they referenced specific pieces and described how he sang them, and I ahve the music for those pieces, as composed by Sulzer, I get a decent idea of what he was as a cantor.
EDITED…from the original post:”This thread is only for the discussion of various cantors and cantorial music. Those you particularly like. It is not to criticize…”
I’m not referring to commercial recordings. I’m referring to live davenings. And indeed, Stern did change his style considerably after coming to Beth El. But even with the change, he never really resembled MK.
Ganchoff didn’t compose the Hashir Sh’halvi’m. It was by Israel Alter. Waldman was a great chazzan. The Ba’avur Dovid was by Roitman, arranged by Rumishinsky. The Sarfei Maaloh was by Beinhron, I believe. I don’t really analyse chazzanim based on their recordings, but rather based on their davenings or concerts, when I can obtain a live recording or read a reliable review. I have listened to about a dozen Moshe Koussevitzky davenings, and they are all the same. The thrill with him was not the repertoire but his awesome presence and vocal perfection. David was more musical and Stern is a much more varied cantor, and Ganchoff was the most interesting. But nothing bar none, comes close to Pinchik’s Rosh Hashana.
I refer to Stern as bread and butter chazzanut. It’s rock solid, never, or almost never, violates klalei hanussach and is always true to the text. Having said that, there is also very little that is avant garde about Stern’s chazzanut, and while he has the capacity to stir a congregation, and has an amazing sense of timing (his davenings, which someitmes lasted 4+ hours on a regular Shabbat, never seemed schlepped out) he doesn’t make me think all that much the way say Ganchoff does.
Or perhaps chareidim are incapable of appreciating great synagogue music.
If you don’t give him an allowance, how will he have any money?
They were/are great chazzanim; especially Taube. What do you do though with someone who grew up non-Orthodox and becomes a cantor out a real desire to do something Jewish with his life? He knows no better. It’s true, under certain circumstances, R. Yosef Dov Soleveitchik together with Rabbi Belkin did allow certain YU musmakhim to take non-Mechitza pulpits on the belief that the rabbi might be able to turn the schul around, or at least stem the tide. Generally these dispensations were for one year subject to reevaluation, and other conditions were often applied as well. The most famous example of a success of this notion is Lincoln Square Synagogue in NYC. When he was frst hired, R. Riskin did not daven in the schul. He davened at a hashkama minyan and then went there to give his sermon but functioned as the congregation’s rabbi in every other way. Eventually he created a vibrant and very important Orthodox schul; albeit one with a controversial mechitza. The heterim had varied success. Some schuls did become Orthodox, others made more limited changes, but did not take the “big jump” and the rabbis in question acted in kind. Some followed the drectives of the Rav and maintained a place in the Orthodox rabbinate, and others didn’t. Eventually such arrnagements became untenable as the chasm between Orthodoxy and Conservatism became too wide.
Anyone know what happened at the great debate?
cherrybim, I envy your childhood. Who were the chazzanim of your youth? I well remember walking with my father on Yom Kippur during the break to hear the chazzan in the Conservative schul for a few minutes. It was rather amusing when we arrived, my father unshaven, in his big tallis and kittel. He looked rather out of place. But the ushers never gave us too hard a time. Indeed chassidim would fill up the balcony of Emmanuel in Boro Park wen Dovid Koussevitzky was there.
Regarding b’shita non-Orhthodox chazanim, where do you draw the line? You once made reference to Orthodox chazzanim who work in non-Orthodox schuls. How do you diffrentiate between the two?
Again, cherrybim, precisely what is your point? If you are suggesting that frum Jews not listen to non-Orthodox cantors, feel free to limit yourself in that fashion. But that point of view has nothing to offer the discussion of the place of chazzanut in the Orthodox synagogue.
Your post however does raise something of a related issue. Many people deride chazzanut as not being truly Orthodox. The evidence for that assertion is that Orthodox schuls don’t, by and large, have chazzanim, and as such chazzanim are part of non-Orthodox movements. But the truth is that Orthodoxy in post WWII, the Young Israel movement and the newly emergin yeshiva movement in particular, eschewed chazzanut in their schuls; thus creating the notion that chazzanut is foreign to Orthodoxy. As such, people put the cart before the horse as it were. Traditional synagogue organization includes a chazzan. For various reasons, some good some bad, America abandoned that tradition.
cherrybim, you asked me my view on the fitness of rabbis who transgress the Torah. I provided some source material based on which I would be guided in forming my views. You now want me to extrapolate that information to cantors who might transgress the Torah, despite my unequivocal statement that I believe cantors should be Torah observant. What exactly is your point? I’ve stated in the past that my understanding of the relevant Halacha is the “merutzeh l’kehal” overrides all other considerations. I’ve provided both history to that statement as well as a personal anecdote. I also recognize that the standard can go the other way. Communities are free to set standards of religious conduct they will not accept in a cantor. One who violates those standards is by definition not merutze l’kehal. I was once denied the amud in the Desewffy ut. schul in Budapest the shabbos I had yahrzeit for my father because I shaved during the three weeks. Upset though I was, there was nothing for me to do about it, (except to daven in the Vasvari Pal ut. schul, where they were a bit more appreciative of my cantorial arts and forgiving of my shave.)If you do not want to listen to a cantor who falls short of your religious standards, feel free not to. But do not conflate your religious practices into a basis to dismiss a musical heritage that is nearly 2000 years old.
I’m not worried about it at all. I don’t listen to it, nor do my children. It’s classical music, chazzanut and great jazz for us.
Confront it all you want. But not in this type of forum. There are appropriate ways to address what some might consider to be unacceptably divergent views and actions. I don’t think a public disputation is one of them.
The risk for a bizayon haTorah, on both sides of the ideological divide is great in such an event. The OP demonstrates the risk.
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cherrybim, there are myriad responsa on the issue of rabbis who are not fully observant of Halacha. The ones that sticks out in my mind are from the Chatham Sofer; one concerning a certain R. Ploni1, the other about Ploni2. Ploni1 comitted various ritual breaches. He talked while putting on tefillin, did not wash neigel vasser, spoke between netilat yadaiim and hamotzi and wrote gittin without the permission of the regional chief rabbi, R. Mordechai Benet. The Chatham sofer ruled that there is no basis to unfrock a rabbi based upon his personal conduct, no matter how offensive that conduct may be (it seems that these lapses, innocuous though they seem to us were a big deal to the community in question). The C.S. recomended that such a rabbi take a leave of absence and carefully think about his life and what he wants to do with it. But writing gittin without proper authorization was worthy of defrocking as such a mutinous act undermined the rabbinic hierarchy and rabbininc authority. The responsa dealing with Chorin deals more with his insiduous influence on Judaism and does not address his persoanl observances with any Halachik consequence.
I’m not advocating that non-religious people be hired as chazzanim. I think all clergy should strive to the highest level of Halachik observance. But the fact that some cantors may have fallen short of the mark during a brief period of our history should not serve as the basis to derisively dismiss the entire field of chazzanut as devoid of religious significance. To do so, unfairly paints the entire cantorate and its history with far too broad a brush.