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I posted these comments on another thread:
On this topic, there is only one form of authentic Jewish music, nusach, which is based upon the trope systems used in reading from the Torah, the Prophets and the Megillot. But even that music, which is essentially the pentatonic major and minor scales, from its literal inception in the First Temple era assumed the structure of the prevailing music of the day, the Greek tetrachords. Indeed Jews modified those tetrachord patterns to fit the pentatonic nature of their music. But trope and it’s extension, nusach are the only true Jewish forms of music. Leib Glantz demonstrated how the ever ubiquitous “freigish” nusach, or Ahava Rabah, as it is technically termed, is in fact one the most recent additions to our musical system probably coming from the near east well after the destruction of the Second Commonwealth. But since we’ve so completely incorporated it, it is definitively Jewish. Even Nusach and also chazzanut, the natural development of nusach, has been subject to secular influences over time. The pentaonic scales and the tetrachords of old became subject to major and minor systems of scale structure. The sonata, the minuet, the waltz, even the fugue, have been incorporated into our sacred music. Sadly, oh so sadly, even rock and roll and cheesy folk music styles are now heard in our schuls. But it’s silly for anyone to ever believe that there has been no outside influence on our musical heritage. the trick is in knowing what’s hitorically Jewish, and what isn’t.
To cantoresq.Sorry to say that, but to you , Ravel and Stravinsky also lowered the level of musical appreciation. What you wrote convinced me that you don’t have a clue about music or understanding of Jewish tefillos. Maybe you have the same affliction as Beethoven, G-d forbid.
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Geneidige Berlin Oberrabbiner:
I never commented on Ravel or Stravinsky. But now that you raise it, indeed 12 tone music was never my thing, but I’m a big fan of the Bolero and of The Firebird. But “mah inyan shmitah. . .” SC was no Ravel nor Stravinsky. As to your assertion that I “Don’t have a clue about music or understanding of Jewish tefillos,” you are simply wrong. I’ve spent nearly half my life studying nusach and how to best apply it to the text of the siddur. It was SC and mainly his progeny that destroyed the traditional music of prayer. Permit me to ask you this, is the Mimkomcha that appears on SC’s album Haneshama Lach, in accordance with the nusach?
Joseph
Member
cantoresq,
You aren’t interested because you fear the truth you have heard. You are naive for denying that sometimes anti-semitism IS caused by certain actions committed by certain Jews.
To finish your foolish sentence lets change the person:
“Moreover, such sanguine protestations of faith didn’t stop the” Romans from piercing the taneh Rabbe Akiva’s body. “The extreme’s of” Rabbe Akiva’s “faith led to his unnecessary death.”
to help you understand what extreme foolishness you said.
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Who cares if the Muslims suppress their own women, commit mutilation, have a Taliban, etc. This is their internal problems. What we have to worry about is how they act to us, not within their own. How they act to Jews today IS a result of the crimes the zionists committed.
R E P L Y
Oh Joseph I’m very aware that Jews sometimes cause anti-Semitism. I live in Monsey and I see it all the time. And your attempt to substitute R. akiva with R. Elchanan Wasserman in my statements is wrong on two accounts. First of all, R. Akiva was very much in facvor of armed revolt against the Romans. He supported the Bar Kokhba rebellion, calling him the Mashiach. R. Elchanan choose martyrdom and did not resist it at all. Secondly, as opposed to R. Akiva, R. Elchanan Wasserman had opportunities to escape Europe and chose not to, preferring to die a martyr than emmigrate to America, which he considered treif. That was his choice, but he went further and advised others to choose the same fate. I will never be able to understand and thereby condone how he could ever have told people to die rather than live. I know of no historical reference that R. Akiva ever acted similarly.
Herr Oberrabinner: My reference to the “ghetto Jew of yore” was not to disparage. Rather to draw an image and a contrast; nothing more.
I’m going to limit my comments to Shlomo Carlebach’s (SC) influence on synagogue music. The other issues I leave to those more knowledgeable than I. I heard SC daven a few times. His nusach, while techinically correct, was bland; pedestrian even. He really didn’t do anything with it. But then again he made to claim to being a cantor. It was his melodies on which he focused. Some were good in terms of nusach, others not. All in all, I think SC himself tried to adhere to the klalei hanusach. But it is legacy that is dismal. Sadly he failed to impart to his successors the importance of maintaining the nusach. At this point a Carlebach davening is little more than a Romper Room song fest pandering to the aesthetically lowest common denominator. What Young Israel didn’t kill in terms of dignified davening, SC’s progeny anihilated.
If you have been following the conversation, you would realize that nobody was suggesting that now, after the fact, we think we would be better off if Eretz Yisroel reverted back to Arab hands. We debated the issue and clarified that it was a result of the advent of zionism that the arab world looks like it does today.
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I see, so Zionism is responsible for compelte lack of religious freedom in every Muslim country except Turkey? Zionism is responsible for the suppression of ethnic minorities throughout the Arab world? Zionism is responsible for the supression of women, including genital mutilation, found throughout the Arab world? Zionism created the Taliban? Give me a break.
lesschumras
Member
I’m always amused by discussions of what ” Jewish ” music is. We’ve always adapted the music of the surrounding culture. What a Bukharin Jew would consider to be Jewish music sounds nothing like what the Litvish or Chassidish Jew considers to be Jewish music. Forget what the words were, there is nothing wrong with adapting the melody of a goyish song if it’s good. Much of what passes
Posted 2 weeks ago #
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This statement is correct, but only to a degree. There is real Jewish music. It originates with the Trope utilized when we read the Torah, the Haphtorot and the Megillot. From there came nusach hatephila. That is distinctively Jewish music. Granted it has its earliest roots in Greek tetrachords, but so does nearly all music. Additionally, Glantz and Idelsohn showed how Jews altered and maniulated those tetrachords and created a unique Jewish sound. And BTW, ashkenazic nusach, which is now based upon scaler adaptations of the trope, is not all the different from the makkamot based sephardic nusach. The two sound different due to pronounciation issues and the musical instruments. But the tonal patterns are remarkably similar. In fact, Leib Glantz was so adroit at purifying ashkenazi nuach, that Yemeni Jews often identified very strongly with his chazzanut.
Think big, I’m not interested in your polemic. Moreover, if you want to blame other Jews for anti-Semitism (which is the canard employed by the amti-Semites) feel free to do so. Personally, I look at myself as a Jew in a more favorable light. But I gues we all see different things when we (colectively) look in the mirror. You see Jews as the cause of their misfortune, I see Jews overcoming their misfortune and thriving despite it. And BTW, did you ever bother to consider what might have been had the Torah world followed Rav Kook’s lead? Of course we can never know. Sadder yet we’ll never have the opportunity to find out.
But let’s get down to tachlis. On a practicle level, please consider the consequences of you’re being right about zionism being moribund. If you don’t like those all too obvious consequences what are YOU (I mean you in the collective sense) prepared to do abnout it. And Please spare me some saccharine platitude about faith in the HKB”H. G-d does not expect us to sit on the sideliens as spectators in His game of life. We are the players He put on earth. Moreover, such sanguine protestations of faith didn’t stop the bullet from peircing R. Elchanan Wasserman’s head. Nor did they stop the Satmer Rav from saving his skin with the help of a Zionist. The extreme’s of R. Elchanan Wasserman’s faith led to his unnecessary death, and those of his disciples, while that of the Satmer Rav led to his ultimate hypocrisy.
This one I believe. Certainly the S’dei Chemed can recount the events of his own life. And all he says is that he believes this episode to be the cause of his spiritual ascent to greatness. He attached the meaning to the story and used it to teach us all a lesson.
Think BIG, I think you’re wrong about Zionism. It’s alive and well and thriving, despite all the problems that abide in Israel. But, assuming arguendo, you’re correct? Why are so so happy about being right in this instance? The logical conclusion of your thesis is the end of the State of Israel. Given the likely successor state, an Arab state of some sort, over what is there to rejoice? Do you think for a minute thet any Arab government will allow for such a large jewish contingent? Do you really think chareidim would be allowed to proliferate as they currently do in Israel? What do you think the taxes might be on Dhimmi yeshivot and schuls? (historically Jews paid huege taxes, more than Christians ahd to pay to Muslim rulers in order to perate their religious institutions) How easy do you think it would be for you, or any other American to travel to Israel to the Kotel (hint Saudi Arabia doesn’t allow Jews to enter the country PERIOD)? Remember all those graves on Har HaZeitim? I hope you would remember them, because they would be obliterated. All you would have is your memories.
I am an ardent Zionist. But I recognize that the Zionist enterprise has had a profound impact on the Jewish mentality; Those of us who grew up with a strong mighty and feared Medinat Yisrael, don’t really know what galut means. After all we had the chayal and the chalutz to admire, as opposed to weak and cowering ghetto Jew of yore. I further posit that even those who never sbscribed to Zionist ideal still never fully experienced galut in light of the advent of the Medinah. If you’re right about Zionism being moribund, then we all better get used to the old, more profound all encompassing galut. So tell me again why are you do G-d damned smug?
Jent: I never said I believed the story about Vlad the Impaler’s body being uncorruptable, I simply said that it was reported aa such. In fact I don’t believe it for several reasons; most notably the lack of any proof (i.e. photos, the actual body etc.). Other instances of bodies not decomposing have been shown to be subject to embalming or other preservation techniques, or exposure to certain climatic conditions which preserved the body. So I have yet to see any proof of any body ever not decomposing after death.
Regarding R. Kanievsky, if you choose to remain part of the problem (i.e. disouraging me from seeking the truth of this matter concerning a one word letter from R. Kanievsky)I’ll ignore you and respond to those who are part of the solution. BTW, it’s interesting how you asume that I do not believe in hashgacha pratit. Nothing is further from the truth. I have had experiences which can be only understood as Divine intervention. Indeed I’ve even witnessed acts of G-dly men that are only understood my me as prophecy. But those instances are deeply personal, between me and my Maker. I submit that anyone who publicizes such profoundly stirring and disturbing things, never really experienced them. You have to trust me on this one.
Jent, I have to plead ignorance. I’d be glad to try and verify the story and contact R. Kanievsky and ask if he ever sent out such a letter. But I don’t know how to contact him. If someone would be kind enough to provide me that information, I’ll be glad to send him a letter asking for clarification.
Regarding the mitzvah of abolishing Amalek as applied to finding an Amalekite baby in his crib. I’ve ling been puzzeled by that mitzvah since I’m convinced that were it not for our yearly recounting the story, Amalek would be long forgotten by now. But, there are bigger issues in our religion to bother me. As to the baby in the crib, I too do not know if I have the strength to kill the child, even if I know him to be from Amalek. But that it my weakness and lacking, not the mitzvah. Quite honestly I hope never to come upon the opportunity be tested in this manner.
Names? Places? Dates? Who was the gadol in question? Please before I’m going to believe this story as true, I need some verifiable facts.
How about come to grips with the reality that the shadchan system does not work. There are many reasons why it doesn’t work, or doesn’t work for many people. Why does the Orthodox community perpetually insist on “fitting a circle into a square?” Why can’t there be options in this regard? I once heard of a beuatiful custom that prevailed in Bruers for many years. During the learning on Hoashana Rabbah, single girls would come to the schul and serve a snack during the session. The snack was merely a pretext for the single men to see who was available and perhaps meet their mate. Many a happy Yekkeshe couple met over those cups of coffee. Rather than insist on all the highly ritualized formality, why not return to basics, boy sees girl, boy likes what he sees and goes after girl in socially acceptable ways, boy meets girl, boy and girl like eachother and maybe get married. The problem with the shidduch system is that the first step, boy sees girl, is not there. For many people that’s a problem.
Az m’leibt, leibt men alles.
The distortion of Shlomo Carlebach’s music has done more to kill nusach and proper davening that any other force in Jewish history. He himself adhered to klalei hanusach when he davened. Sadly his disciples kept the chaff and threw away the kernel.
JoJo knows little of the history of the Bais Yaacov movement. Sara Schneirer started her school to combat growing ambivalence to Judaism among Jewish girls, who were given no Jewish eduction at all, but rather absorbed the bourgoise ethic of the day. These girls could recite Heine’s Lorelei from memory but were completely ignorant of “Chumah Bereishis.” The idea was never to turn Jewish girls into docile haus-frauen, but rather to instill within them pride in Judaism born of knowledge of it. I’m sure Rav Schach did not say what is attributed to him here. He was far too quick to excommunicate people he didn’t like (i.e. Nechama Liebowitz) but I’m sure he did not expect Jewish women to simply bake cookies. After all who did he believe would support the chevrei hakollel? Moreover, I’m sure his wife knew a good bit of Torah, and knew it well before he married her.
On this topic, there is only one form of authentic Jewish music, nusach, which is based upon the trope systems used in reading from the Torah, the Prophets and the Megillot. But even that music, which is essentially the pentatonic major and minor scales, from its literal inception in the First Temple era assumed the structure of the prevailing music of the day, the Greek tetrachords. Indeed Jews modified those tetrachord patterns to fit the pentatonic nature of their music. But trope and it’s extension, nusach are the only true Jewish forms of music. Leib Glantz demonstrated how the ever ubiquitous “freigish” nusach, or Ahava Rabah, as it is technically termed, is in fact one the most recent additions to our musical system probably coming from the near east well after the destruction of the Second Commonwealth. But since we’ve so completely incorporated it, it is definitively Jewish. Even Nusach and also chazzanut, the natural development of nusach, has been subject to secular influences over time. The pentaonic scales and the tetrachords of old became subject to major and minor systems of scale structure. The sonata, the minuet, the waltz, even the fugue, have been incorporated into our sacred music. Sadly, oh so sadly, even rock and roll and cheesy folk music styles are now heard in our schuls. But it’s silly for anyone to ever believe that there has been no outside influence on our musical heritage. the trick is in knowing what’s hitorically Jewish, and what isn’t.
Think big writes:
Cantoresq:
I don’t know why I’m bothering to rubut your post (certainly not because i think I will succeed in changing your point of view, because i doubt anything anybody here says will be heard by you.) But maybe in case someone else on this public forum will be infected by your words, I will give a my point of view to consider.
You ask why she deserved the fate she did if she never fargined anyone? As Nameless said, We are not G-d and we have no way of knowing his cheshbonos.
I RESPOND:
Indeed we are not G-d and cannot fully understand His ways. But I’m sure if anyone ever asked him, R. Chaim Kanievsky would say the same about himself. Since we can’t presume to know G-d’s ways, I am against stories such as the one under discussion. They reduce the level of contemplation of the Divine to child’s play. Such drivel may have a pedagogic value when teaching seven and eight year olds, but they have no place in adult religious introspection.
This Big continues:
She may have been a very high soul who came into this world for a specific purpose and this was the way to fulfill it.
I Responde:
But we have no way of knowing that do we?
TB CONT.
As to your question of why her body did not decompose for not being jealous if she anyways could not feel jealousy, so why was she rewarded for it?: I think that is an excellent and intelligent question.
Again, as I said on the smoking blog, Yiddishkeit is not averse to questions, as long as they come from a sincere place and not from a knocking one. I don’t pretend to know the answer, and I can’t even say I believe the story without a doubt (Jews by nature are more sceptical than gullible) as unfortunately many stories make their rounds which turn out to be false or misconstrued. (But I still appreciate the message, regardless whether the story was true)
However, I’d like to propose an answer to your question, just for the sake of learning. We have a precedent in the torah for Hashem rewarding someone for something even if they were not in the position to do otherwise.
When Yaakov Avinu met up with his brother Eisav Harasha after many years, it says that all the shevatim bowed down to Eisav. Many years later, The first king of Yisroel was Shaul, who descended from Binyamin. The question is asked: why specifically from Binyamin ?(Yehuda was not going to receive it at first because the Hashem was not happy with how the request for king was made…See Shmuel Perek 10) One of the answers given is that since all the other shevatim bowed down to the rasha Eisav, except for Binyamin. Why not? BECAUSE HE WAS NOT YET BORN. Here we have another case where Hashem rewarded someone for something even though he was not in a position to do otherwise. How can we mortals try to Fathom Hashem’s Mind?
I Respond:
Forgive me, but it’s one thing when chazal make that point, and quite another when a rebbetzin does so. But your answer does address an interesting theololgical difficulty; the flip side of theodicy, [seemingly] capricious Divine grace.
noitallmr:
Ever heard of Szol a Kakas Mar?
to cantoresque,
I truly hope that you are trying to be funny and are not serious.
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It was tongue in cheek. But at the same time, I think certain elements on this forum need to address the bigger issue raised by my post. At what point do they not rely on the pronouncements of rabbonim and rather defer to secular wisdom?
BTW this question was not always so obvious. It’s brought diwn in the Sefer Minhagim that the Maharil was mechadeish davar when he allowed people to wear a new garment called “zocken” on their feet on Yom Kippur rather than go completely barefoot. Seems once upon a time, the idea was to be uncomfortable and not merely avoid leather.
”But something else occured to me last night. ‘
I see this issue is really sitting on your mind sir. For someone who deems this a fairy tale, I must say you are quite occupied with it; Do you obsess with ‘Sleeping Beuty and Cindarella as well?
The girl was fine till she was 17 years old and had ^plenty of oppertunity to envy
others.
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Oh no no no my friend. The decades long coma was central to this bubba maise. The clear message was that in light of her coma, she never experienced envy and therefore her body did not decompose after death. (BTW how did R. Kanievsky know this girl was never envious?) Don’t change the facts simply becuase they might now work against you.
I hate to break the news to the Chassidim here, but they are not the originators of the Mitzvah Tantz. The practice is mentioned in the Machzor Vitry. But the Chassidim are the ones who preserved the practice long after it was abandoned by other Ashkenazim. So I suppose it’s fair to say that it is now a Chasidic custom.
Nameless I imply nothing and stand by what I said. I don’t believe, not for a second that was a girl who lay in a coma for 73 or 37 years whose bpdy did not decompose after she died. I do not believe that R. Chaim Kanievsky gets involved in fairy tales.
But something else occured to me last night. According to those who believe this silliness, please explain why the girl merited such a fate? While it is true she was never jealous, given her circumstances, why is that such a big deal? After all she was in a coma and not a position to ever be jealous. Also, let’s not forget, she never davened, never made a bracha on food, was never mechabedet her parents, never married and and had children etc. Those of you who place such great stock in this nonsense, please explain that to me.
Cantoresque says;
‘I’ve been to many such events. Bu my attendance creates no obligation to believe everything said there.’
Are you implying that these reputable prominate speakers who have the support of our Gedolim are BLATANT LIARS?? Because frankly, there is no middle way. Its either you believe them, or you think they are trying to deceive us,
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Quite the contrary. I imply to intent at deception at all. I’m certain the rebbetzin who repeaed this fairy tale firmly believes it. But her belief in it does not make it true.
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You continue by saying;
, they say that Vlad the Impaler [the basis for the Dracula story] also didn’t decompose
Who is ‘THEY’ sir??
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The archeologists who found his grave in the church of an old monastary in Romania.
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But you take FIRST PRIZE for this;
or I witness him say from his own mouth I don’t believe R. Chaim Kanievsky chimed in on this nonsense
Frankly I dont know how your not embarrassed to even make such a statement on a Yeshiva Web site.To even suggest that a Gadol like Rav Kaniesvsky should even sink to the level of one who questions the credibility of any Talmid Chochom who quotes him, is outrageous!
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Please!!! Do you really eepxpect me to believe that geolim are never misquoted? Do you think for a second that I’ll accept the notion that gedolim are no misinformed by unscrupulous people? Don’t be ridiculous
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You apparantly are struggling with your beliefs and its obvious in all your posts!
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Halevai we should all struggle with our beliefs. Without the struggle that comes from true introspection, we would never grow.
The Big One said:
Hey guys, I hit upon a brainstorm. If your so out of sync with the Yeshivish (aka Chareidi) community, why don’t you folks start your own site and try to propagate your left-of-center religious ideologies? Better than duking it out with a Torah-centered community that will never be convinced by your modern beliefs.
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Those thre sentances aptly sum up the supercilious truculence of Chareidi thinking. Despite Chazal telling us “Yesh harbei panim l’Torah” as far as they are concerned, their way is the ONLY “Torah-centered community” that counts. It is due to that mindset that klal Yisrael will never achieve anything approaching unity.
Let me make this clear. I don’t believe there was a girl, relevant to this conversation, in a coma for 73 or 37 years or any length of time. I don’t believe there was a girl, relevant to this conversation, whose body did not decompose after she died (in fact I have a ahrd time believing the entire decomposition thing. And BTW, they say that Vlad the Impaler [the basis for the Dracula story] also didn’t decompose so go figure). And finally, until I see it on his letterhead with a verified signiture, or I witness him say from his own mouth I don’t believe R. Chaim Kanievsky chimed in on this nonsense. GROW UP PEOPLE!!! the time for fairy tales ended with kindergaarten.
Cantoresque,
Have you ever attended an evening where a famous speaker adressed the public?
MOST of the time you will not hear him telling a story while including the ‘name, rank and seriel number’ of the subjects involved. That doesnt mean the story aint true!
Furthermore, if Rebetzin Miller mentioned that name of Hagoan Rav Chaim KANIEVSKY IN CONNECTION TO THIS STORY, you can be sure it happened. But then again, ‘ONCE a NON BELIEVER, Always a NON BELIEVER’!
Posted 3 hours ago #
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Nameless
I’ve been to many such events. Bu my attendance creates no obligation to believe everything said there. Moreover, recent events well indicate the (il)legitimacy of taking things at face value simply because they are said in the name of a gadol. Moreover, I’m not an unbeliever, rather I choose to think before believing.
Let me join in with my frustration. I’ve demonstrated how my thinking is based on sugyot in Shas. No one has responded. Let’s all remember the principle of “shtikah k’hoda’ah dami”
Cantoresque says;
I don’t believe the story and want to see proof.
Nothing personal, but I’ve read a lot of your comments and sad to say, there are alot of things ‘you dont believe’ and I’m sorry for you.
But for the record, I heard this story at a shiur recently given by a Rebetzin who happens to be the granddaughter of Reb YY Herman, the subject of the book ‘All for the Boss’,,,,,
Reliable enough???
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Not reliable enough. If this sroty actualy happened, it should not be too difficult to verify. what was the girl’s name, where did she live? Where is she buried etc. After all if she were in a coma for that long people, beyond her parents, took care of her. Who were they? Some detail, that ought to be readily available, should be forthcoming. And I’m sorry, the fact that a rebbetzin parroted it back is dispositive of nothing.
What’s more important, the hat, the davening or davening in a hat? Have you all forgotten that the vast majority of Jews, don’t daven at all? And hats and foorwear are what bothers you? Sheesh!!!
When I studied chazzanut in the Belz School of Jewish Music we were told to say it softly but audibly. I usually intone it in a falsetto (kop shtime). I know of no lusical arrangement that indicates to say it inaudibly
Pashuteh –
The glass house bit, you are alluding to, is a non-Jewish concept. You are trying to deduce that it is improper for ANYONE to correct anyone else, “since no one is perfect.” In Torah Judaism, a Yid is OBLIGATED to give tochacha. You, like so many other mitzvos, would like that repealed and reformed.
If Judaism ever finished reforming itself to your specifications, there would be nothing left of it. In fact, the “Reform” and “Conservative” movements are just that.
Yes, yes, I know, how dare you be corrected. How “kanaish.”
Posted 19 hours ago #
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Actually, Joseph, in the Iggrot Chazon Ish, he cautions us against giving tochachah in our (i.e his generation) since it will proboably not have the desired affect, but rather the opposite one. The Chazzon Ish actually recommends against it.Additionally, in hsi Darchei haHora’ah, the Maharitz Chajes brings literally scores of examples where the nosei keilim to the Shulchan Arukh and other poskim describe a widely accepted abberant practice but then decide to do nothing about it based on “mutav sheyihiu shoggegin velo meizidin.” When, if and how to give tochachah seems not to be as simple as you seem to think.
I don’t believe the story and want to see proof.
Josephf:
appropos to my post about “yesh koach” What is your understanding of Chazal’s statements about negah habayit, ben sorer umoreh, ir hanidachat, (about each they say “lo haya v’lo yihyeh”)? Regarding the death penalty can you not see the possibility that Chazal, being opposed to it, legislated it away? Don’t forget R. Akiva’s famous statement that were he on the Sanhedrin, he would have insured that no one would ever be executed for any crime. Was R. Akiva a “Koifer gomer?” since he seemingly put his love for humanity before the Torah’s injunction to invoke the death penalty where It mandates capital punishment?
josephf
What of the sugya of “yesh koach b’yad chachamim LA’AKOR din min hatorah. . .” The issue discussed there was not CAN Chazal abrogate laws from the torah, but rather under what circumstances. So while I’m sure that it’s very comforting to repeat frum platitudes about each and every word in the Torah being “100% truth” (which incidentally I never denied), it really is beside the point.
cantoresq et al,
Do you take the position that someone making a comment that “the Rabbonim are crooks”, “the Torah is a nice Sefer, but must be taken with a grain of salt”, or “we must be flexible in Shabbos [or whatever Taryag of your preference] and not insist on keeping every nook and cranny to the tee” should be tolerated and posted?
Posted 48 minutes ago #
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That all depends on the context of the statement regarding the rabbis. If it’s in the context of discussing those rabbis who have been convicted of criminal activity, then calling them “crooks” might very well be a legitimate statement. Regarding taking the Torah with a grain of salt, arguably, Chazal did just that in many instances (at least according to certain readings of certain passages in the Talmud). So again depending on the context it might be legitimate to say that. Regarding Shabbat observance, again it depends on the context. Are we referring to d’Oraita precepts or d’Rabanans? After all each is treated differently. I can think of instances where one might say that Shabbat need not be observed b’chol dikdukeah u’peruteah. Granted those are very exceptional circumstances ala the idea of “chaleil Shabbat achat k’dei sh’tishmor Shabbatot acheirot.” or within the realm of Hilchot shtadlanut (remember the famous Shabbat in the 1940’s when R. Kalmanowitz drove in a car from schul to schul making an appeal for the va’ad Hatzalah. He felt that the issue was importnat enough to break Shabbat.) but they do exist. The issue is not the statement. the issue is the context and the basis for the statement.
josephf:
I think you are wrong regarding what’s “fair game” in the Beth Midrash. Look for example to the sugya of zaken mamre. One does not become a zaken mamre for espousing a divergent point of view. Indeed even after the consensus is established contra to that divergent point of view, one is not obligated to revise his thinking on the subejct. One is a zaken mamre only and only if he paskens l’maaseh against the consensus. I also point out that in the famous (and often misunderstood) sugya of “Tanur Achinai” HKB”H proclaims: “Nitzchuni banai. . .” But there is no record that R. ELiezer ever conceded the point.
I’ve held off posting on this thread for a while, but I’d like to add my two cents, considerng that I am one of those lsited in the first post on the permisability of reading my posts or of me posintg in this site. I’ll ask my own question, what is a permissable question to be asked in a beis midrash? Is there any field of inquiry which is taboo to Torah learning?
Judaism is G-d’s gift and guide to the world because the anwer to that question is a resounding “NO!!!” There is nothing that cannot be raised in the context of honest Torah inquiry. There is no field of intelelctual endeavor to be avoided in the Beth Midrash. I forget the pariculars of the story, but I recall that when the students of a certain Amora were caught spying on the most intimate of their rebbe’s acts, they unashamedly retorted “torah hi ul’lelilmod ani tzarich.” And the dsicussion ended there. The lesson? G-d loves honest inquiry. Nothing is so sacred that it is exempt from dissection and analysis. Either the injunction of “Haphoch bo v’haphoch bo d’kula bo” is a mantra for life, or Judaism is nothing.
Permit me another question. What is the function of this site? Is it merely to reinforce the pre-approved assumptions people bring with them, or is it to serve a higher purpose? Are people ehre interested in learning something new, or in just rehashing the stale and well known? “Harbei lamad’ti. . .U’mtalmidai yoter m’kulam.” How can it be that a sage learns the most from his students? The answer is because the students are innocent, naive perhaps. They do not make the same assumptions about the “Torah way” or about world their teacher does. They therefore offer a fresh, perhaps unexamiend perspective on the subject matter at hand. I prouldy stand before all of you as your “student.” At the same time I humbly thank and beseech you for the opportunity to remain mine.
Actually, the terms Ultra Orthodox refers to those who look to employ chumrot in their day to day lives.