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Doc, such an assertion makes sense only to Leibniz, and I’m nor even sure if he would agreed with it.
Doc, my definition, anything that occurs with predictable regulairty is not a miracle. It is nature. Moreover, that “pruste Franciscan friar” was not wrong. I think Occham’s razor has a m’kor in shas. “Ein somchin al haneis” can be legitimately read as an instruction about interpreting phenomena around us.
Jent to be clear. I believe in miracles, which is waht you seem to be asking. But at the same time, I also believe in what is known as “Occham’s razor,” which postulates that when determining the solution to a problem, then one which requires the fewest asumptions is the correct one. Thus if I can explain a reported event within known laws of nature, I will do so before assuming the miraculous.
Jent let me put things to rest, hopefully. I believe in miracles. But I also believe in Ocham’s razor. Thus if I can explain a story in the Talmud within the preditctable workings of the world (i.e. by making fewer assumptions, as Thomas of Ocham put it), I prefer to do that rather than rely on claiming a miracle or other unnatural explanation for a reported phenomenon
so cantor back to the question..do you believe that moishe rabbainus heilige kerper did not decompose..see rashi soif ‘zos habracha’..do you believe the gemmorah we mentioned before b’m 84b about reb elozor? also in sepirei chassidim by rav zevin zt’l (ok him you dont have to believe, ‘myth’ bearer)brings few instances so what about natural occurences and ..’flying in the face of riboni sheloiloms natural order of the world?
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I’m not sure to shich Rashi in Zot Habracha you refer. As to the Gemara in Baba Metzia, allow me to answer with a question of my own. Do you literally believe what the Gemara says about Pharoah’s anatomy in Moed Kattan? Moreover, I find his the insturrction to Rebbi’s wife to leave his body in an attic interesting as well as explanatory. There have been reproted cases of mumification when bodies are left in arid enviornments for extended periods of time.
First off, the spritiual longings in the message are truly inspiring. It’s interesting how different people respond to similar stimuli. When I was in yeshiva, I never felt all that connected to the enviornment. It seemed so very contrived and artificial; so other worldly and unreal. I fled the davening in yeshiva every chance I got. It was for that reason that I began to daven for the amud on the Yamim Noraim at age 17; it was an easy way to get out yeshiva. Even now, while I respect and understand the ethereal atmosphere of the yeshiva, I am always an outsider to it. No, it is in schuls populated by people who contend with the challanges and risks of this world where I find my spiritual sustenance.
Thank you nameless. It’s a shame we can’t get further ocnfirmation. But personally I’m inclined to believe the story. I’m inclined to believe it not only based upon R. Unsdorfer’s credibility and “migo” (what reason would be have to make it up?), but also becuase in my own personal life, I too have experienced encounters with departed loved ones at auspicious times. The daye before my first son’s bris, my father and grandfather appeared in a dream and instructed me to honor my step father as sandek. At the time it was still a toss up between my shver and step father. Additionally I remember when my father was dying, and he carried on a very audible conversation with his mother, who died in Auschwitz. Yet at the same time, he was very lucid and very aware of his surroundings. Based upon my own experiences, why should I doubt this story?
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out –
because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out –
because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out –
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me – and there was no one left to speak for me.
US Holocaust Memorial
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The above quote is a loose translation of a poem by Pastor Martin Niemoller, a Lutheran minister in Germanmy during WWII; one of the chasidie umot haolam. He was an outspoken critic of Hitler and Naziism, and was eventually deported to Sachenhausen and Dachau. After the war he was a leading spokesman for German guilt over the holocaust, often expressing his personal regret at not having dnoe more to protect the victims of the Holocaust. It behooves us to quote him in his name.
Gee Jent, thanks for telling me that in Judaism working for a living is heresy.
Indeed it could be true. But until someone provides some verifiable information, this “story” has no more value than any other ethical parable in our tradition.
Notice that the Torah only calls Pinchas and Pinchas alone. When Eliyahu tries to assume the title for himself, HKB”H tells him to train Elisha to be a navi since HKB”H has no more use for Eliyahu.
jent1150
Member
cantor..figured you’d show up, we stated in the other article reyous of such occurrence in the torah, also see bava metziah 84b (?)middle of amud, the tanneh reb elozors wife hid him in the attic for 13 years after he was nifter. once she saw a worm come out of his ears she was annoyed why, so he came to her and explained..AND HIS EXPLANATION PERTAINS TO …LEAVE IT UP TO IMAGINATION
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And a gut gebentsched mazeldik yohr, vos is gefilte mit naches, glick, genzint und parnoseh to you and yours Jent.
I’m more than happy to believe it, as soon as some verifiable evidence of it actually happening is produced. Who was the girl? Who were her parents? Who was the man on the bus? Who was the non-Jewish suitor? Who was the truck driver who hit her? To which was rav was this related over? Provide some verifiable information. This is not at all the same as claims that a corpse did not decompose. Decomposition of a corpse is a natural occurence, just the rising and setting of the sun. Claiming to have seen a corpse that did not decompose, absent some sort of embalming or other manipulation, is dubious from the get go since it flies in the face of G-d’s natural order of the world. A young woman getting hit by a truck however, is not unheard of. It is the context of her death that is interesting and meaningful, not her actual death. That context, from the content of the story should be easily verifiable. So please, provide the information.
Just to put in my two cents, where I officiated we started at 9:00 (which I think is way too late) and were done at 2:45 the first day and at 2:00 the second. My mussafim took around two hours, and that was with quite a bit of chazzanut.
I use money. Although in college I wrote an article for the YU newsppaer defending the use of chickens based upon the first Ramban in Sefer Vayikra. My thesis was that if we do it, the controversy aside, we should do it in such a way to have maximum effect. The Ramban talks about what people should think when bringing a korban, and it aptly applies to Kapparot. But I use money simply because of the way the chickens are handled. I will not be party to tza’ar ba’alei chaim to fulfil a minhag which can be fulfilled in other ways.
Lieder, I made no mention of “rubber”stamping” Rather it was branding, taking a heated branding iron and searing the symbol into the offender’s flesh that I sarcastically suggested be re-instated. Since you seem to like the idea, please stay far away from my children.
Joseph, it’s that kind of sanguine attitude that is killing Klal Yisrael. Time once was that people were ashamed to be supported by the community, they took pride in supporting themselves and their families. Not anymore.
jent1150
Member
to cantor esq..we asume your children learn in PS…
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Why do you make that assumption. Also remember what happens when you assume. Then again based on all your posts, it already has.
Playing mommy/housewife all day is THE MOST praiseworthy (and rewarding) job a wife/mother can have.
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Joseph, you’re right. I showed my wife your post and you’ve inspired her. She now wants to be a stay at home mother and homemaker. She’s quitting her job today. Of course, we rely on her pay check for certain things like groceries, tuition, her car payments, various uilities and other household expenses. Since we can’t do without those necessaries, we expect the Jewish community (i.e. You) to support this decision. E-mail me off list and I’ll tell you where to send your check. Oh by the way, my hat was starting to look a little old and I bought a new $250.00 Borsalino. You don’t mind paying for it it do you? After all it’s for the good of klal Yisrael.
No feivel it is not poshut. I’m all for the community supporting a cadre of elite scholars who are engrossed in full time learning. Klal Yisrael has always stood for that. But that is not what occurs today. The sine qua non of a getting a good shidduch is to be registered in Lakewood. One need not actually so much learn in Lakewood as be registered. The sine qua non for a girl to get a shidduch is years of kest. That the chosson does not actually learn is not so important as the shver willing to pay for the (non)learning. The illusion of mass learning, which in truth is mass batalah is unprecedented in Jewish history. It’s also killing jus economically.
Joseph
Member
I believe that Klal Yisroel would benefit from more Torah learners. Klal Yisroel has always supported our Talmidei Chachomim.
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That’s true. But it’s only in the last 20-30 years that we have undertaken to support a whole society of learners, mpst of whom contribute precious little in anything to the intelectual development or spiritual life of the Jewish nation.
Can any of the advocates or corporal punishment in schools please explain why such discipline should be limited to children in school? If you think it sorks for children, why would it not work for adults? Would of you advocate the reinstatement of public floggings, the stocks, dunkings, branding for various criminal or civil infractions? Littering for example could be very well controlled via 25 well placed strokes of a whip on the offender’s bare back. Double park your car? Three days in the stocks. Petty larceny? Brand the offender’s forehead with a big “T” so all will know to be wary of this thief. After all hitting and humiliation work so very well with kids and adults are nothing more than big kids.
I seem to recall a gemara in Taanit that indicated that only gentiles wear black shoes.
From a perspective of pure Halacha, I’m not sure any rabbi or group of rabbis has the authority to issue takkanot, at least no binding ones. There is no institutionalized Beth Din to allow for such a mechanism. As such, any “takanot” issued are at best suggestions to be voluntarily followed or not.
Joseph, you have a very interesting way of debating. You ignore the kernel and deal only with the chafe. I’ve encountered this before in yeshivish circles. While it may play as witty in the Beis Medrash, in real adult parlance, it comes off as peurile and as just so much prevarication.
Joseph
Member
cantoresq, The Torah runs without cash. I have no idea (nor care) what you mean by that, but can assure you our Yeshivos and Talmedei Chachomim have thrived in poverty more so than in wealth.
Posted 5 hours ago #
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Joseph there are still people alive who well remmeber how Torah thrived in the poverty of Europe. Ask them how they enjoyed wearing second hand clothing given them by the kehilla. Ask them how enriching it was to beg for and “Ess Tog.” From among those who didn’t merit to learn in yeshiva, ask them how they liked being apprecticed out to learn trades at the age of ten or eleven. I can’t imagine that you actually believe that pre WWII young Jewish men sat and learned (or just sat and didn’t learn, or maybe just registered to sit and did neither) in the same proportions as exists today. In the 1930’s Mir had approximately 150 students, from 150 different communities. No single community could afford to send more than one boy to a yeshiva. Indeed in that enviornment Torah thrived. It thrived because Jews had the proper perspective about it. People who were selected and nutured to be engrossed in it full time were so sselected based uon their talents and apptitude. Thus did the yeshivot create great talmidei chachamim; only the cream of the crop were admitted. The rest of Jewry toiled in more this wordly pursuits. torah learning was no a social convention, but rather a sacred vocation. Post WWII it has become a perverse criteria for admittance into a truncated prostituted version of Orthodoxy.
Joseph
Member
cantoresq, And which, in your opinion, doctrinal dictum is winning the war for the hearts and soul of Yiddishkeit? Which is adding more boots in the ground?
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I never knew that the search for truth is rooted in a popularity contest. Let’s not forget that even the most perverse ideologies (i.e. communism) had their instances of great popularity. But tell me Joseph, what do you believe will happen to contemporary chareidiut when the money really runs out?
Joseph, your sophistic prevarication speaks louder than your words. You’ve made your point, my point actually. There is no chance ever that chareidim will ever fully embrace the legitimacy of non-chareidiut, even if they themselves choose to live otherwise. There is no ever that chareidim will reocognize the spiritual greatness of non-chareidi rabbanim. There is no chance ever that chareidim will fully embrace other Jews on any other than their (i.e. chareidi) terms. Certain chareidi apologists like R. Shafran or Jonathan Rosenbloom may be very polite in this rejection of other Jewish schools of thought and of other Jews, other less so. But the facts remain the same. The doctrinal split is manifest. It’s a matter of time before the sociological implications come home to roost.
Joseph, please address the second portion of my post, the more importnt part. As to your implication that R. Schachter does deserve a place “at the table” for purposes of this conversation I’ll accept that. Can you please name one single non-chareidi rav who does? Can you please name one singe non-chareidi gadol from the last 150 years who would have deserved a seat at the table?
Joseph your attempt as distinguishing acceptance from resepct is creative, but misguided. In fact R. Schachter and other non-chareidi rabbanim are not respected, much less accepted. The proof of that is that he is not even allowed “in the room” much less given a seat “at the table” when the c hareidi “greats” convene to dsicuss issues of communal importance. The non-chareidi viewpoint is not even allowed to be voiced at such gatherings, are not considered at all, and are rejected by default. i think the events of a Agudah convention about fifteen years ago sums it up. One year, R. Sherer z”l expended tremendous effort to invite the modern Orthodox rabbis of Young Israel to the convention. There is no doubt that his motives were pure and genuine. In light of his efforts and out of respect for everything R. Sherer stood for, R. Hershel Schachter accepted the invitation and told R. Sherer that he would attend the Saturday evening keynote address. Ever the gentleman, R. Sherer reserved a front row seat for the Rosh Kolel of RIETS. I don’t remmeber who it was, but upon R. Schachter being seated either R. Gifter or R. Svei ver loudly and publicy stood up and walked out saying he would not return until [a very humiliated] R. Schachter left. You talk about respect. I’m lookng for basic human decency.
Yanky55
Member
Thank you Pashuteh Yid and welcome to the ranks of risha’im on this site.
I never knew the refrains not commonly sung and indeed they reflect the deep feelings of Yiddishkeit by the composer(s), as opposed to simply feelings of a free nation.
Btw, did you know that Chaim Nachman Bialik (oops…am I allowed to say that name on this site?) suggested that the Shir Hama’alos sung by Yossele Rosenblatt (composed by chazzan Pinchas Minkowski) and sung in virtually every home, be used as the national anthem?
I wonder if Cantoresq knows that?
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I’ve known it for years. As I recall it, the idea was universally rejected by all but the dati leumi faction. The secularists opposed it on two grounds. There were those who didn’t want a religous text to be the anthem of a secular state. Others didn’t want to offend the chareidim with the anthem.
Bogen
Member
cantor,
A good definition of a Godol is someone who other Rabbonim, cross-denominational (within Orthodoxy), seek guidance and responsa from. i.e. Rav Eliyashiv, The Skulener Rebbe, and the Babi Sali (to pick 3 names) all did all of this for Jews of Sefardic, Chasidic, and Litvish (to pick 3 denominations) persuasion (meaning all of the 3 Rabbinical examples were sought by all of the 3 denominational examples). The names you mentioned did not. i.e. Rav Schachter is a big talmid chochom, but his halachic decisions is not generally sought as binding guidance outside of YU/MO circles. (Some of the other names you mentioned, were even more pronounced in this regard.)
And Rav Svei is sought after cross-denominationaly (as much as YU may not like this). So he would certainly fall into this category.
Posted 11 hours ago #
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The definition you supply is unworkable since issues of hashkafa influence who people ask. Due to differences in hashkafa the mroe right wing branches of Orthodoxy refuse to recognize those on the left, their scholarship, wisdom. Yirat Shamayim and moddot notwithstanding. Since the chareidi element would never seek out a R. Herschel Schachter or a R. Aaron Lichtenstein (for example) for advice, they can never meet your requirement of cross denonminational respect to qualify as gedolim. The left wing of Orthodoxy, is generally far more respectful of the right wing. Giving this matter considerable thought over the past few days, and in light of complication desribed here, I cannot arrive at a rational test for determining who is a gadol. It’s all way too subjective.
Personally I don’t spank my kids as a form of discipline. I think there are better ways to teach them. So I certainly will never tolerate anyone else hitting my children to discipline them. For me it’s very simple, you (an adult) hit my kids, I’ll hit (i.e. with lawsuits, crimina comlpaints etc) you so hard your head will spin into the last century.
The Big One
Member
cantor: So you resorted to financial extortion to maintain your place in that Yeshiva?
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Not at all. I simply made two things clear. Actions have consequences, and I would allow him to educate by intimidation, as he usually did with students. I gave him a taste of his own medicine. Truth be told, I hated the place, but was stuck since had I been expelled or left that late in the year, I would have lost my YU credits for the year and my mother would have killed me. Thus the need to fight it out with him.
cantoresq, To address your main point, it is necessary to break it into its two components. I agree with you it is wrong to denigrate any proper Rabbi. But as far as “refusing to recognize the greatness”, I’ll have to disagree with you. You can’t, to take R. Goren as an example again, impose on us to accept “the greatness” of someone like that. (We had a long conversation about him a number of months ago.)
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Why? But in all truth I’ll “fargin” you the subjectivity you desire. But fair is fair and you must fargin me the same subjectivity and accept my complete revulsion for R. Svei (even before he became sick and incapacitated), and still consider me a kosher Yid.
apropos to the Joseph/lesschumras dialogue, I’d like t point out that contrary to Joseph’s implication, there are far fewer “universally acknowledged gedeolim” than he might think. For example, I can say for a fact that outside the Litvishe velt, R. Svei is not considered a gadol, nor was R. Gifter. Chassidim didn’t recognize them as anything special since they were not chassidic. Modern Orthodoxy rejected them due to their insutling R. Norman Lamm and YU. R. Schach was similarly rejected by non-chareidim for his countelss charamot and reactionary stances. Indeed for those of you who took a R. Schach cherem seriously, please note I am in cherem from him as I attended Nechama Liebowitz’s shiurim when I was in yeshiva in Israel (this was no small matter, when the Rosh Yeshiva found out, he wanted to expell me. It was only when I threatened to tell everyone back in US why I was expelled, particularly one big donor did he back down). And on a final note the cyclical veneration and disparagement of R. Ovadia Yosef as displayed in the chareidi press renders the entire concept of “Gadolei Yisrael” most hollow.
Indeed I do consider R> Goren to have been a gadol. As to my definition of the term, I’ve never reaqlly thought of how I define it. Give me a few days to ponder it. But in addition to rightly asking me to define a gadol in my parlance, please address my main point.
Not as far as I recall.
led by Shlomele z’l and all the other zaddikim as we build a new Bais Hamikdosh! Bimheru bejoenu
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PUHLEASE!!!! Shlomo Carelbach’s music has as much to do with the shirah in the Beit haMikdash as does Led Zeplin’s at the Met.