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notpashut
Member
cantor
I’ve read the Kaplan article.
As I expected we’ve gotten nowhere. How an intelligent person such as yourself can view such drivel as convincing of your position is beyond my comprehension.
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I’m not going to do this again. I’m too tired forom the last battle on this topic. That Rabbis Cohen and Wein disagree with Prof Kaplan is their perogative. I certainly would not say that belief in da’as Torah is illegitimate. Nor do I discount the Judaic validity of those who adhere to it (as opposed to those who invalidate me as a believing Jew for my rejection of it) I happen to not accept it. The Kaplan article put into words that which I instinctively felt about the subject. The concept makes no sense to me. Feel free to brand me a apikoires if you wish. I really don’t care. Moreover, insulting those whose views I esteem will no more bring me to embrace the idea than will branding me an ignoramus or heretic.
Bogen
Member
Heimish/Yeshivish/Ashkenaz
cantoresq: Can you explain (to the non-Hungarians) who/what the Neolog’s where? Are they somewhat akin to todays Conservative/Mosarati’s? What were there beliefs? (And what about the “Status Quo”? When did they disappear, why, how where they different?) Do they still exist in meaningful numbers? Were they only in Hungary?
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Neolog refers to the Hungarian Liberal Jewish community. At it’s inception, it was identified with the Positivist Historical School established by R. Zecharias Fraenkel of Breslau. It never went as far as Geiger’s Hochshule fur Wissenschaft des Judentums. Currently the seminary is affiliated with the Jewish Theological Seminay (Conservative Judaism). As to their beliefs, I recomend that you read Moshe Carimilly Weinberger’s centenary festschrift about the Seminary. The status quo congregations were kehillot that declined to join the seperatist Orthodox after the Congress of 1868. Thier reasons for not joining were many, but in most cases it boiled down to their resentment of the rabbinic control of the kehillot amongst the Orthodox congregations and money. They saw no benefit to their individual kehilla in joining. these were however fully Halachik communities. The Maharam Schik placed a cherem on Orthodox rabbis and shochtim ministering to them, but as far as I know, they never lacked for klei kodesh.
SJSinNYC and smalltowngirl, trust me when I say that I’m a VERY involved parent. I didn’t say I woudl prohibit or ban spectator sports from my house. I just have a concern as to their worth given the decimation of the players’ values and morality. I think my kids get much more in terms fo learning teamwork and fair play out of actually playing team sports than they do watching others do it. And I very much encourage that, whether it’s little league or a pick up ball game in someone’s yard. My rotten luck is that my oldest son, like me, prefers to read.
I live in a house on a street, near another street that intersects with another street that leads to a main road. That’s about as close as I’ll get to revealing that kind of information here. People, identity theft is still around.
notpashut
Member
cantoresq
Check out http://www.jlaw.com/articles/cohen_daattorah.pdf
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I’ve read the Cohen Article before, and found it unconvincing. He is mistaken in his assertion that Kaplan relies only on his challenge to the Rashba. Kaplan, relying heavily on the Rambam, has several other sources for his refutation of the modern day formulation of da’as Torah. But I’ll read R. Cohen’s article again, if you’ll read Kaplan’s
smalltowngirl
Member
cantoresq,
There is ALWAYS something to learn even if it is NOT to emulate certain behaviors…
I totally agree that so many of the “athletes” are NOT good role models, but does that have to take away from the sport?
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I’m not sure kids can separate between the two.
My concern/fear about this is that professional athletes are no longer role models in any way. Steroids, the outright commercialization of professional sports and the myriad personal scandals in which the athletes find themselves render them unfit role models. What do my kids learn from this? Nothing of any real value.
notpashut,
I’m well aware of the argument you put forth. It’s a compelling one. But it is not born out by the majority of primary sources. I refer to you Lawrence Kaplan’s article, Daas Torah: a modern coneption of Rabbinic Authority, on the subject published in Rabbinic authority and Personal Autonomy (Moshe Sokol ed). I suggest you read it. I do not negate that gedolei Torah have very important and edcuated opinions on non-Halachik issues. I don’t discount the importance of seeking out those views. But I completely reject the notion that those points of view are authoritative the way Halacha p’suka is authoritative.
I was fifteen when my father died and seventeen when my mother remarried. At this point I’ve had a step-father for longer than I had a father. My views on this subject are compltely framed in the context of his presence in my life. I cannot think of a single bad thing the man has ever done to me. He takes amazing care of my mother, and she of him. He has been a friend and advisor to me over the years and is a wonderful grandfather to my kids. His generosity knows no bounds. The gifst he buys my children are as nice and significant as those he buys his biological grandchildren. Life without him would have been very different; in a very bad way I think. conversly my best friend has a step-mother; a woman who was totally ill equipped to deal with the six year old orphan of a step son she acquired. They never had a good relationship and his father was of no help in the situation. She demanded complete obediance from him, withheld afection from the poor kid and even beat him for his infractions. All the while this pathetic child thought it was G-d punishing him for killing his mother (his mother once jokingly said to him “A– you’ll be the death of me.” She soon got sick and died). This lady was the wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time. He has a very different POV on this issue than do I. It’s not simply about does one have to respect a step parent. There is a flip side to it; does a step-parent have to respect a step-child and thereby earn respect? Remember it is the step-parent who is the tzi gekimminer” and not the other way around.
noitallmr
Member
The most interesting part in this topic is why the line in cantoresq’s comment went outside the box??????
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How about that my knee jerk reaction was to be machmir?
Ashkenazi of Hungarian lineage. But my father, who was raised int he cradle of Hungaruan chareidiut studied at the Ferec Joseof Rabbikepzo Intiszet, the Rabbinical Seminary in Budapest, which was identified with the neologue community. (Most of the students there came from Orthodox families. So much for the cherem on the place) As such he had a good apperciation fo Wissenschaft des Judentums and used it frequenttly when he learned. Despite a 30 year war with G-d brought about my the Holocaust, he died a shomer Torah u’Mitzvos. I was sent to a Modern coed day school, where Limudei Kodesh was taught Ivrit b’Ivrit. Yom Ha’Atzmaut was a school holiday. I went to a non-hat wearing yeshiva high school, and spent a year in an American black hat styled yeshiva in Israel. Then I went to YU. My personal hashkafa these days is sort of a mixed bag. I believe firmly in Torah u’Maddah as a way of life. At the same time, I also respect religious determinations based on scholarly examination of sources, as opposed to adopting that which seems “frummer.” I bristle at the adoption of policy based upon meta-halachik concerns. Before I accept those, they have to make sense to me and be relevant to my life. I have little use for the notion of “Da’as Torah” Ironically, I am very envious of the piety and seeming spiritual tranquility brought about by adopting that which I reject and I long for that spiritual peace of mind. So I guess I’m very modern/rationalistic in my outlook but not happy with the result.
Aside from being purly theoreitical, why is this even a question?
Mayan_Dvash
Member
cantoresq, you don’t even have to go 3 hours out of NYC, about 1 hour is enough.
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ok
notpashut
I davened Shachrit for the amud from the ages of 16-19. At 20, I started with Musafaim, Kol Nidre and Neilah.
I am also a chazan when I have the opportunity. I’ve davened for the Yamim Noraim for the past 23 years. I also had a few full time pulpits when I was younger.
Because Bogen, outside of New York and other areas of great chareidi concentration, what you call the “fringes” is in fact mainstream. Drive three hours in any diretion out of NYC and you will encounter a far different landscape of Orthdox Judaism, where what you consider to be on the fringes is in fact the only form of Orthodoxy available. Those Jews are not radical in their beliefs. They are not looking to be provocative or buck the system. They are highly committed Jews who strive to observe Halacha despite the great many challenges facing them in those places and despite their small numbers. To do that and to create communities of even minimal vitality they allow for what you derisively label “fringe” Judaism. So while you might consider the issue of a woman saying Kaddish to be merely theoretical, for many others, it is of vital importance.
I’ll be 39 in about a month
From what I’ve seen in various shuls, there is no issue about a woman saying Kaddish if there is a man saying as well. The question seems to be if there is no man saying Kaddish. It seems to me, and I’ve never looked into this at all, the issue is that Kaddish is a “davar sh’bikdusah” and we do not say devarim sh’bikdusha without a minyan. Since a woman is not mitztareif to a minyan, how can she say Kaddish? The flip side to this is if there is a minyan (i.e. 10 men) present, why can’t a woman say kaddish just the same way she might answer to the kaddish of another, or say kedusha in the chazarat hashatz? Does the recitation of a davar sh’bikdusah require that it be said from within a minyan, or merely in the presence of a minyan? I believe the answer is the former, that Kaddish must be recited by someone from within the minyan. By way of analogy, we’ve all seen men, who arriving late for Ma’ariv, say Barchu at the end and everyone answers. That is allowed since the man saying the Borchu is of the minyan. A women, who ran late for maariv could not do that. Again I haven’t looked into this, and these are my knee jerk reactions. I also must add that I have seen women say Kaddish alone in many MO shuls. There is no question in my mind that the rabbis who sanction this practice have a Halachik basis for it.
Mine ought to be obvious. Cantorial music is my passion. Lawyering is what I do for a living.
I think that in order to protect tznius in klal Yisrael there should be a special bus line for elderly women. Now I turn my sarcasm button off.
Joseph
Member
When welfare is corrected by the government so that the minorities can’t abuse it, you can start worrying about everyone else. Until such time, every Jew should take as much advantage of the “system” as is done by everyone else. As long as it is legal, use it.
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Interesting idea. Of course it’s simply a heter to be as bad as the worst of society. What ever happened to aspiring to be a “mamleches Kohanim” an “Am Segulah” and “Goy Kaddosh” as enjoined by the Torah? Joseph you’re suggesting that since the government seems not to pay attention, it’s ok to “steal” benefits from the public. Aside from the moral repugnancy of such an outlook, please explain what appears to be something rather arbitrary and racist in your post. You seem to diffrentiate between abuses perpetratd by “minorities” and those perpetrated by “everyone else.” Why are abuses on the part of “minorities” worse or more odious that those of say . . . Jews? Is Jewish abuse of the system less abusive? Is Jewish absuse of the system less morally reprehensible? Why?
This discussion in pointless. The various POV’s are well known to all. Sadly, the ramifications of those POV’s are now well known as well. Those who advocate more people learning didn’t implement safeguards to prevent the creation of a society based on an expectations of entitlements, who scorn those who work for a living. Those who advocated living “tzum Gott und tzum leit” allowed for the creation of a generation of amei haaretz who scorn serious Torah scholarship. Extreme positions, never helped Klal Yisrael.
I’m a big fan of Pinchas Segal a/k/a Pierre Pinchik, Moshe Ganchoff, Leib Glantz and Mordechai Hershamn etc.
Joseph: music based on authentic Jewish modes and scales. Although, that too is a slight misnoer since those modes and scales are based upon Greek tetrachords. But considering that those terachord and pentatonic scales were modified around 2000 years ago into Jewish modes and scales, I’m comfortble calling them “authentic Jewish.”
We also pray for seichel and bina, which are also in short supply.
Not this week in Jerusalem.
Perhaps you might want to consider some Jewish music and not the drivel that passes for Jewish music.
I suggest the Chareidim continue to snipe and one another and thereby remain permanent non-entities in the political arena.
Joseph don’t kid a kidder
Unless Joseph, she says “Eini zan mimcha u’nichsei m’lug sheli” then she gets to keeps her metzios as well. We don’t know if hse did that or not, but in the movie she gave him the money, either as a matana or in light of the basic din that what a woman finds belongs to her husband since he supports her. What I found interesting about this movie was complete lack of comment on it from the rabbinic leadership. entertainment and the venues in which it occurs seems to occupy alot of time among gedolim. The recent flap over concerts, the frive to regulate recorded music are examples of this. Why was this movie, which was shown in movie theatres and other places where genders sit together, ignored? Why was there no fear that the advent of this film might lead to a weakening of the chareidi spirit of seperatism?
Joseph, I don’t believe you. I simply don’t believe your protestations of piety.
Joseph, at what point, or is there a point, at which you would reject the teachings of your accepted teachers or psakim of your accepted poskikm? I’m speaking hypothetically.
I would follow his psak.
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Really? What if doing so constituted a 180 degree reversal of your conduct on a d’Oraita issue? I have a VERY hard time believeing that you are so sanguine about such things.
Not at all. Before I was married, I simply used my fathers poisek. After I got married, my Rebbe from my Yeshiva (which my parents placed me in) advised me who to use as a poisek — and I use ad hayom hazeh.
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And were he to begin issuing psakim you found odious (i.e. were he to being relying on kulot he never relied upon before and with which you disagree) what would you do?
Joseph please tell me how you came to chose your “poisek?” Was it not because his approach to things resonates with you as true? You choose to follow who you WANT to follow.
Btw cantorsq, Even if we assume for a moment that your interpretation AND recollection of what you say is the Chazon Ish’s position IS correct, are you saying you accept the positions of the Chazon Ish across the board, or only where it suits you — and you will pick and choose responsa from various scholars that meet YOUR liking, for every different question?
In other words, if for example I show you a teshuva from the Chazon Ish that states that one must wear a hat and jacket during the entire course of davening and bentching, with a minyan or without, will you accept it and start following it (if you aren’t already), or will you find another shitta to your suiting for that circumstance and disregard the Chazon Ish’s position in that case?
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Joseph I do as all Jews do. I listen to that which resonates with my sense of what is reasonable. We all do, you included. So please spare me this poor example of a plea of some neo-Kantian categorical imperative.
Joseph that was precisely the Chazon Ish’s point.
Joseph according to the Chazaon Ish I have to know that will heed it before giving the tochacha.
Jospeh, all I remember is seeing in the Igrros Chazon Ish. I make no assumption. Baed on my recollection of the Chazon Ish, I decline to rely on the Chinuch.
Jospeh, and the Chazon Ish, in the Iggrot has a very different standard. He says tochacha should not be given unless is virtually certain it will be accepted.
jitzur, there are very technical requirements in giving tochacha, which I doubt can be complied with in such a situation.
It’s between them and G-d and no one else.