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There are times where if you “suspect” a person is not truly needy, or asking for money for the right reasons, and you give anyway, it is a merit on your part. There are other times where, as I understand, you dont have to give, but I think that has more to do with the frequency of them coming to you for money. I am not saying what to do other than ask a Rabbi about this. In my opinion, though, even drug addicts do need help in a lot of ways.
Awesome! Especially the point about exerting effort. Very key point!
Jothar! Either ease up on the caffeine or learn to cook and stop eating raw meat. All your posts have the same propaganda in it, regardless of what the thread is talking about.
cocaphony
The first time I heard that was on a very cold winter day. I thought the person was asking
for coffee.
Emenas Itecha. Bottom line: You are correct. Somehow I wish it were easier for the emotions to follow the thoughts. I will continue to focus on your points. It may not be easy to do all the time, but you are speaking the truth.
Jothar, I would like to ask you why you are participating in a venue that you are against? Why do you own a computer? Why do you have internet? Why do you post? Why do you visit such posting forums? Why here on a Jewish site and not some random anti-semitic website?
Where does your crusade begin and where does it end? If your goal is to ensure only proper information is dispensed to people and that no one is manipluated, well, you have the whole world to work on. You can patrol every Jewish community and interview every one in every Jewish community to ensure they are correct in their views. What you would have the power to do after that, is uncertain. You can call yourself the Thought Police.
I think since you prefer your crusade to be online, rather than in person, that makes you a “suspicious online person”, not so far removed from the kind of person you claim to be “protecting us from”.
And what are those similarities? You are crossing personal boundaries. The line where you end and the other person begins, does not exist. On top of that, you are repeatedly posting you have a righteous purpose (excuse) for being this way.
In all social venues people can learn good information or bad information. This site, I would say, has among the most thoughtful and sincere and “sociable” posters you will find anywhere. To be on guard, or even against every single component of this forum because there may be wrong information passed on, as you say, is a question of someone possibly having an anti-social leaning in how they handle concerns that may have merit. Don’t use a good point as an excuse to not respect the boundary line where you end and the other person begins.
Computers are incessantly known for certain personality types to have free reign where in real life they would not. I hope you are not the kind of person you are warning us about. Everyone else seems ok, but to me, you are not “blending” in a friendly way.
Other than seeding clouds or a bio-dome, science is not doing nearly as good a job at manipulating outdoor weather as Hollywood.
Emunas Itecha, Many of them are not done with such guidance. Even still, I dont know of anyone in our community “so horrible”, and when meeting new people, how can we have a clue that their future days, c”vs, will be such a bad influence on someone? I am just saying this is a tricky situation. Sometimes they say marriage will straighten a person right up. Other times it brings out the worst of a person, even though individually both parties are nice people. Who can predict? My point was how do we really know that all broken engagements, based on consultation or not, averted and saved someone from a terrible future? And how do we know after such a difficult situation that the “best” one is just around the corner? I am not offering anything here other than a thought or two.
Jothar, no, you don’t have to scrutinize every post. I did not mean the literally, but it’s always good to know another Big Brother is watching. If you do find something suspicious I am not sure how you will be able to respond any better than someone needing, c”vs, to report something to their state police internet crimes bureau. Also, you have to be careful before sounding an alarm and naming someone, even if you have a strong hunch they are up to no good. A poster merely giving detailed information, or someone asking for information because they live in the same area, may still not be enough for you to respond. And, how would you respond??
Good Shabbos!!!
Mazel Tov! : D
Uh, oh…I hear Jothar marching down the corridor….lol
….Hugh R. Lintfree, Ace Detective-at-large, was summoned by an international committee of lint watchdogs. It seems terrorizing lint was now a world-wide problem, and growing, and not one of the four corners of the earth was immune from the far-reaching influence of lint. In fact, each corner had lint………
I am stuck, so forgive me. But how do we always know that something is broken off for a good reason, and not just because of an overblown, speculative hunch? How do we know that in these situations “something better” is just waiting around the corner? I do have emunah and bitochon, and perhaps it needs to be strengthened, but the emotions have a mind of their own. I mean, if two people seem to get along and like each other, how can there be one little detail that would make someone think the entire future together is destined to be doomed? Just sharing a thought…
Yemen (Yemen)
(You are correct Shmaryahu – I apologize. Was that your schedule or an Alegbra word problem?)
Jothar; show us your badge. It seems by your own declaration you are going to be scrutinizing every post instead of just socializing. That, in and of itself, is a good way to glean information. “Dont follow leaders and watch your parking meters…” lol
It is good that you are genuine and sincere and questioning what you are doing. The world needs more people like that. You are in the position you are in for a reason, and will probably learn from each thing you teach someone.
If you are not comfortable with certain “recommendations”, then pass on those. In the areas you are stronger, you are obliged to pass on what you know, as long as you feel sure of what you are saying.
I will tell you what works for me in my efforts. The most religious people I know have had the most influence on me because they happen to not make me feel bad at all.
With a smile on their faces, they tell me, not from their own words, but they share, B’H, the source of the information they wish to teach me, and then let it sit with me.
They may say, “So and so says……..”, or “When we make a bracha………etc…the reason we do it that way is…….” etc..etc.
Have I absorbed and put to practice everything? No. Have a put more to practice this year than last year? Yes, B’H.
I would say if you have an opportunity to share a halacha with some hashkofa that you feel good about sharing, please do so.
In conclusion, I will tell you what the first Rebbe I learned with told me (He was the one who got me to see what Judaism is really all about). He said, “When a Jewish neshama hears the truth; the real story, whether it sits well with them or not, they will, to some degree, bond with it and think about it, and eventually grow in time.”
Refuah Shelayma!
There is another problem with why many teens can do things OTD, which I have seen countless times.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but when someone is the 4th child out of 11, let’s say, they really are free and on their own for a good part of the week. Telling parents they are going to a friend’s house or to work or something seems to be enough of keeping tabs.
Groups of frum teens are totally unsupervised for too long a time and they are no more immune to
the yetzer hora than the rest of us.
While large families are for sure a blessing, B”H, two busy parents, doing all the right things for their family, just dont have enough hours on the clock to inculcate values and have a one-on-one rapport with each child.
I dont know what the answer is. Perhaps recreation centers or something. Perhaps limud kodesh education with deeper understanding that each subject is not just a subject, but a way of life.
I meant to say attic fan. Sheesh!
Kinda reminds me of the saying, “If your nose runs and your feet smell; you’re upside down.”
Sam2, thank you for saying that. Yes, there is a physical addiction component to these things. I hope you get past this as soon as possible and find the right one who will make you happy.
littleapple, thank you for explaining and for saying that. It is greatly appreciated and I hope every single person of marriage age benefits from your blessing. What a very nice thing to say. Thank you.
Maybe there should be a schadchen specializing in sensitive people who look into the person they are dating and dont overly judge on superficial status or whatever people judge on. Many of us approach a shidduch the correct way. We are open, happy, congenial, and as something develops, it can be devastating when that person just checks out, especially if they seem to be responding well.
All in all, it all leads back to Hashem.
May everyone find their beshert and find them to be greater than could have ever imagined!
This reminds me to check the fan attic after doing the gutters.
Arkansas
~May Hashem comfort her mourners among all the mourners of Israel ~
Unbelievable! The smartest people in the world talking about cigarettes! This conversation should have been titled Favorite Poison, of which cigarettes are filled with many to choose from.
I wrote a lot about this on the forum Pain of Shidduch Rejection.
In trying to be constructive, this should be addressed by our leading Rabbeim, as the resulting pain of such a thing can be as dreadful a pain as anyone one has ever experienced. What is one to do at that point?
Forgive me for comparing, but in the outside world people can grow tired of another and move or on or their partner can c”vs violate the relationship and at least the grieving party has something to help them accept the situation.
Here, in our community, someone can be on cloud 9 and then all of a sudden then get a message it’ over; and they never saw a problem coming. And many times this heartbreak may be based merely that something does not look right “on paper”. People are complex and sometimes third parties or one of the original parties overthinks something making a match seem like too much of a business, legal arrangement affecting precious hearts and neshamos in damaging ways, heaven forbid.
I dont know the answer, but there seems to be people speaking or needing to speak out about being hurt, pretty badly, from this process. What do we do for them? We have to care about them and not let them suffer in silence with the hope the answer is always just around the corner.
Dating should include some parameters to avoid causing a high degree of pain. We are a good hearted and natured people and must be delicate with each other in this area.
oot for life: Thank you for taking the time for your very careful and thoughtful response. It is something I may need to put more thought into. The mind and the heart are not in sync at this time. I thank you for your insightful words which make tremendous sense.
Sam2: We did speak to the parents, and it did not make things better. The more emotional her pleas were the more the news came back with the harsh reality of how the parents are interceding in everything she does now. But, she may realize your point, as well, and who knows what may happen? Riding out the time apart, with no communication, is a kind of a withdrawal that is severe at times.
This idea of breaking something off; cold-turkey, may have it’s merits, but emotionally, it can be horror, and then some.
Again, thank you very much and I apologize for taking up time. I have held this inside for over a month and a half, but I am glad I could share this here. Thank you all very very much.
littleapple, what does that last part of your post mean in English? I tried using translators to get the whole thing. Thank you very much.
msseeker, The Prince and the Pauper analogy is excellent. Good one!
Thank you Shein, littleapple, and yungerman1 for your warm and supportive comments. They are very much appreciated. Thank you very much.
yungerman1, I hope she is not suffering more, or at all… Also, we had a humorous thing to “argue” over who loves who more. And after “this” happened, messages from a supportive third party would send messages between us where we would still respond with who misses who “more”. When we crossed paths over Chol Hamoed, and talked, reaffirming our feelings, her eyes were redder than mine. If I said I think the world of her, that would not come close. Oy, I am in as big a pickle as I have ever been in, but will take the suggestions made here, which are very helpful and very appreciated. Not sure if I said too much here, but I have been keeping it to myself and when people ask me what is wrong, I cant share this with them. I have will to get past the ill and dreadful feelings and focus on your suggestions. Thank you..
I have to share this because sometimes the painfulness of rejection can be dangerous and damaging, c”vs.
Someone did their own hishtadlus and looked me up. Everything went fantastic and then some. The chemistry was clicking all over to where you probably thought you heard crickets in your yard, but it was most likely us, clicking.
We dreamed of a future together and all those things were mutually shared. Then, the parents leveled the hammer and decided cold turkey ending it was the best way for us to go. I was not what they had in mind on paper, I guess. From the little I get from people who know both of us, she is suffering to this day as badly as I am. Although she says she is suffering more, which is not true.
I have nothing more to say about this and am still stunned and very very very messed up.
I wish there were an easy fix to suggest to you. Matters like this are not strictly based on logic, which was the basis of your action. Logically, you wanted to end it. Emotionally, it is not over. Hmmmm. You need to speak to someone because sometimes, in time, people get out of your head, othertimes, they dont, which is one reason why we dont like to date around and do things like the others in the world. Also, IMHO, a decision based purely on logic may have some presumptive or predictive components to it. Not all logic is always so logical when it comes to human nature and emotions. I hope that helps; although I am not sure it did.
You just keep davening. In addition to the daily davenings, I heard a great shear that said something to the fact that you find a wall, stick your nose in it, let the tears come down, and just daven, daven, and daven. I believe the Rabbi also said according to a few gedolim, when you do this, your prayers have to be acknowledged. There is no way they are not heard when you get that up close to Hashem with deep, sincere, prayer.
Free internet in Lakewood? Where do I sign up?
Shidduch Rejection: May Hashem give you the best match beyond your wildest imagination that will give you the great future you obviously deserve. I understand what you went through, and how painful it may be to still talk about it. I am sure it was more difficult than you care to think about. Know the tears you shed for the dreams you were hoping for does not mean those dreams are still not on the horizon for you; they are Iy”H! You are moving forward with admirable wisdom and strength. Just a note: Hashem evidently has many doing the same over the past few months. You are not alone.
It is interesting how in this thread the feeling of what one thinks would be ok weighs more than what is actually permitted. I have read many materials from yeshivos and day schools warning us not to participate in this holiday for numerous reasons, including giving mixed messages to our children and the other Jewish children in our neighborhoods.
I imagine tossing candy to a youngster for Halloween may be a participative act that has some non-Jewish meaning like throwing salt over your shoulder or knocking on wood. Really, Halloween is not worth us having anything to do with.
Thanksgiving, too, has to be looked at carefully. There is a definite hashkofa on when/if someone should sit down to a dinner the same time each year to eat a turkey. Maybe someone knows more about that.
Who has intranet?
San Francisco
I vote it is absolutely wrong to give out candy. The origins of that holiday are severely pagan and even though their descendants today make it a childish activity, it is still something that we should stay away from. I mean, even the holiday costumes and images are in no way to look at the spiritual world including ways of portraying those who have passed on. Its all wrong. One of their dumbest holidays.
I think the focal point of a Kiddus Hashem is what we are showing to the world, regardless of their values. Normally, normal people of all backgrounds respond well to our values when we demonstrate them and they are the recipients of our thoughtfulness.
Well, Round 2 isn’t fairing any better. What an abstract plotline. The story is like the Sudokus’ of stories.
Is ribbing like jesting?
Moderator -80, you stated something very important which cannot be overlooked, “because they are our beloved brothers and sisters.” Keeping your statement in mind is bound to elevate this conversation. Perhaps if some Lubavitch readers would like to state the reason for the beliefs they have which are different to ours, that would also add tremendously. They learn, do mitvos, do chesed, daven…etc. I cannot believe they all drank from a tainted water fountain. I would like their members to add sound reasons as to what made them believe as they do with regards to the Rebbe and Moshiach.
Even if the anti-Lubavitch are correct (and I am not saying they are) what is to be gained by making such declarative statements about them, which I am sure you had to have experienced directly and are not parroting from things you have heard? Lubavitch dont add mitzvos to the collective mitzva pool that benefit us all?
I hope everything works out for the best. This is a tough situation. The fact he is not frum is going to make it difficult to put some teeth into everyone’s suggestion since he and his girlfriend see no barriers prohibiting them as they lead the same secular lifestyle with the same habits.
Ironically, it will be the non-Jewish partner who will have a problem with things, in time, and who will help to teach him a lesson.
Jewish education is imperative. A classic case of an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.
Cherrybim,
You bring up a good point but I, for one, would not be able to test it. I would not approach someone I see in a Chabad house and ask them to say unequivocally that the Rebbe is not Moshiach. I would not be confrontational to any frum yid like that
Are you saying no Lubativch would say they are still waiting for Moshiach?
Also, having spent time at succah parties and lectures at Chabad over the years, no one has ever stated the Rebbe and Moshiach in the same sentence to me. The only thing a little untraditional which I have witnessed is the ending of davening by stating, “We want Moshiach now.”
Regarding lectures on Loshon Hora. We cannot get enough of that and I know you agree that any incident where there is loshon hora, c”vs, does not give a green light for another party to proceed.
Suppose Yidden working on every continent for Chabad were to read this thread?? Would they be the wiser for holding back or for coming out with their thoughts on non-Lubavitch Jews? Do we even know how they feel about us for not being more Moshiach or Kaballah enthusiastic?
If someone does not like something about a segment of frum Judaism, a rebbe, a shul, a member of a study group, etc; handle it with some thought and less speech. I try to do this myself.
Pashuteh Yid…Beautifully said! As you know, all of us have to watch our speech in one way or another, and that includes when the topic is Lubavitch, so not everyone will share your warm view, unfortunately.
Why does this discussion always come up in various non-Lubavitch circles? What is the benefit?
These discussions, sadly, bring to mind a lot of the things I see from people obviously more frum than me, who are saying and doing things which are not right, as people will do.
For me, seeing the Lubavitch van at my college in Teaneck many many years ago, was a warming sight that stayed with me to eventually pursue learning in Lakewood.
So, I will finalize my comment by saying those Lubavitch that physically go out of there way to find Jews in the frei world with the hopes of bringing them back, are doing a fantastic thing that needs to be done way more often. Even if there is just one person who attends a Shabbos meal and learns to daven and take on mitvos because of the Lubavitch efforts, that is a good thing.
In fairness to the posters here, maybe there is something I am not getting, but from my personal experience, they are AOK!!
Any recommendations for good Shadchanim for a BTGuy in the Lakewood area?
Reseda (California)