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Correction: I meant “no extremes to speak of” in my last post, not “with extremes to speak of” as I wrote. Thank you.
Aries2756,
“I don’t see any signs here of bipolar disorder. I see signs of alcohol and or drug abuse. I dont’ see signs of mood swings or going from one extreme to the other.”
Most people wrongly assume that by definition bipolars “go from one extreme to the other”. This is not the case. Many bipolars suffer with chronic irritability as their cardinal symptom, with extremes to speak of.
WOW has indicated in her posts that her sons moods do fluctuate quite a bit and that she needs to catch him in a good mood to have any type of civil interaction with him. More importantly, he is depressed which is obviously a component of the illness. Lastly, WOW has indicated that her other son is ADD, which adds a genetic predisposition towards mental/behavioural conditions to the picture. The evidence is overwhelming.
WOW–
You’ll probably not even respond to my post, fine it’s your choice.
The bipolar clinical picture becomes more and more clear with each of your posts. I will keep beating my drum even if it falls on deaf ears, if only to placate my own sorrow for the entirely avoidable circumstance you find yourself in. You beg for a solution, but magically know mine has no worth. I would pay to have a conversation with your husband about with matter.
The boy you so dearly miss is trapped in the prison of mental illness and your local pharmicist is patiently holding the key, waiting for you to pick it up.
Hello WOW,
I am still following this thread, suffering with each of your posts. Please don’t be upset with me, but I will once again broach the topic of bipolar disorder and the great possibility that your son is suffering from it (or at least some form of a mood disorder requiring medication).
You brought up in the past that since your son never had a manic episode, he does not qualify for a diagnosis of bipolar disorder (based on the DSM IV). There is something critical you need to undersand. Only in the past several years has bipolar disorder been discovered to exist in children and teenagers. Prior to that, it was thought to exist only in adults. The DSM IV, which has yet to be updated, is providing the ADULT PRESENTATION of the disorder which often looks a lot different than the teenage version, hence many teenagers “dont qualify” for the diagnosis. Your son does not need to have a manic episode to qualify for this diagnosis. His chronic irritability, destructive rages, and the various other behaviours are all part of the pediatric bipolar picture.
I know its hard to imagine, but the solution, at least to a very large extent, may be sitting on the shelf of your local pharmacy. The situation has gotten so grave that he is now wishing death upon himself and his parents. What can be more convincing that this poor child is imprisoned within his illness?
You once told me “if there was a pill that could fix my son I would stuff his closet with it”. How do you know that pill does not exist? Have you tried any? Please keep in mind that I am referring to mood stabilizing meds, not anti-depressants or stimulants which can make matters worse.
After reading your posts, I am thoroughly convinced that there is great merit to my position. Not that I am 100% convinced that he’s bipolar, just that there is a good chance that he is.
WOW–
I am not getting paid a salary or commission for these posts. Obviously I am coming on strong (as MODERATOR 18 noted). Ask youself; what on earth does this person want from me? Why won’t he take NO for an answer? Why does he persist? Why won’t he drop it? There are two possible answers to those questions. Either I’m the controlling, obsessive type, or I know something you don’t. What if I know something you don’t WOW? The very fact that I have come on strong, persisted with zeal, and spent time writing despite your rejecting my position time and again should alert you to the possibility that I’m privvy to information that I have and you need.
It pains me that the solution to your problem may be closer than you think, but still gets disregarded. Maybe, just maybe, what I am saying has truth to it?
I’m sure you’ve heard the famous mythical mashal of the man who was drowning who cried out to Hashem “please save me!”…a few moments later someone on the shore threw him a life jacket. The drowning man refused claiming “no, no Hashem will save me!”…then a boat came to rescue him, but the man again refused citing the same line of reasoning. Finally a helicopter came, but the man persisted that Hashem will save him. Eventually he drowned. He came before Hashem and humbley asked “Dear Hashem, I had such faith in your ability to save me, why did you let me down?” Hashem replied “Let you down?? I sent you a life jacket, a boat and a helicopter but you refused each time. What could I have done further?’
Is it possible that the information I am providing you is that which you have been praying for all this time? What if what I am telling you is right? You can’t afford to dismiss what might very well be the truth.
WOW–
Thank you for the response. I appreciate it.
Firstly, I never insisted you kid is BP, I insisted that he might be and that every possible avenue should be explored to rule it out.
You say you’ve consulted with ‘every type’ of professional. Great! Does that include a psychiatrist? That’s an M.D. with a 4 year residency in psychiatry. If you have, why on earth didn’t you say so earlier? If not, then you havent consulted with ‘every type’ just with ‘some types’ of professionals and I, therefore, contend that ‘this particular type’ should be consulted with. They are the ones who can make the diagnosis.
Besides, even if you saw a psychiatrist that ruled out BP, I would still say get a second and maybe 3rd opinion about the matter. Again, as I stated before, BP is too destructive of an illness to not diagnose and psychiatrists are notorious for underdiagnosing it. It would be great if there was a special test that can be ordered to diagnose the illness, but there isnt, so you need to rely on the doctor evaluating your child.
WOW–I never said taking a pill was the entire answer. You made that part up. It is a vital first step (assuming your kid is indeed BP). The meds will calm the rage, lift the depression, improve the mood and subsequently allow for good judgement. At that point, and at that point only, therapy and everything else mentioned here becomes both imperative and very effective, but you can’t skip the meds and go straight to therapy.
Next, saying he never had a manic episode means he’s not BP is amateurish and misguided. Who told you that, your family doctor or therapist? Both are clueless if they think that way. Many BP’s never have a full manic episode. There are many forms of BP and some forms don’t involve full scale mania. There is a phenomenon called a ‘mixed episode’ which involved mainly rage, irritability and poor judgement, all on a very grand and pathological level. Your son may or may not have this.
WOW–and others on this board,
I want to point something out here. I think it is obvious that there is a lot more at play here than just going OTD. There are plenty of teens who veer far from what their parents or rabbi’s tell them to do, but they do it with at least some level of respect and sensitivity. Many are too embarrased to admit they are no longer frum. The relationship with the parents may be strained, but it in no way resembles what WOW has been describing here all along. A few posts ago she describes not being able to take away the android because “he would destroy everything in the house”. OTD? Try acutely ill. You’re living in fear in your own house! You’re being bullied by your teenage son! This is a FAR CRY from merely being OTD. What I’m trying to get you to see is that the mere fact that your sons situation is so intensly dire provides grounds for believing that we are dealing with an actual medical condition, not just consequences to having a poor encounter with a rebbe or some low life classmates. The fact that you’ve essentially dedicated 90% of your energy in resolving this issue and have produced no results at all should alert you to the possbility that this is truly a case of someone ill–someone trapped in the prison of his condition who can only be helped by a drug. My line of reasoning is so much more sound than yours!
Have you ever tried argueing with an athiest or evolutionist about how life started? Despite the mounting evidence and logical conclusions they persist in their arguments, often resorting to acrobatics just to defend their position. What I am saying is that to explain your sons outrageous behaviour from a medical standpoint makes a lot more sense that conjuring up some mythical understanding of how several negative encounters at school can create such a monster. Nasty, constantly irritable, not sleeping at night, smoking, steals alchohol, destructive rages, hatred etc. etc. etc from someone who comes from a fully functional family and two stable loving parents???……which sounds more believable?: a) this child clearly has an underlying mental disorder and should be properly diagnosed and treated
b)he’s just upset and needs someone to talk to.
I pray I’m getting through to you.
W.O.W
It’s me again.
The way I see it, the most likely scenario here is that yourself and your son suffer from two separate conditions. Your son bipolar disorder, and you denial.
For the life of me I can’t understand why you won’t take my advice and consult a psychiatrist. You seem amenable to all of the other hand ringing going on here, all of which has failed to produce results. At least one other member here has introduced the concept of your son truly being sick and surprisingly you agree. Most sick people I know see M.D.’s and take medicines.
I wish Hashem would put the right words in my mouth to convince you.
WOW–
When I said “family doctor” I understood that it meant doctors in your family, not family practitioners, but thanks for clarifying.
I continue to suggest that your son might be bipolar because I believe it is a highly underdiagnosed condition that is extremely prevelant in the ‘going off the derech’ crowd. You may know that psychiatrists believe around 10% of the population suffers from some form of a mood disorder, even though many of those are mild enough that they are able to function normally. To suggest that a troubled, out of control, teenager that has strayed far from the path that his parents and rebbeim set forth for him may very well be suffering from such a disorder is very much reasonable.
True psychologists and social workers see patients who are bipolar, but how often are they the ones to make that diagnosis to begin with? Very rarely. Don’t bank on their silence as assurance that your son doesn’t have it.
We’re obviously butting heads here. I’m trying to see things from your perspective, but the facts keep getting in the way. The fact is that most children in the asbsense of trauma, abuse and neglect don’t deteriorate the way your son has unless there is an underlying mental issue. More importantly, the fact is that mood disorders are too destructive in a persons life to miss, so ruling them out in a situation like this one is imperative. The fact, forgive me, is that you are running away from perfectly sound advice–everyone agrees that self-destructive behaviour should, at the very least once, be looked at by a psychiatrist! I’m not asking you go to a fortune teller, bow down to an idol, or have a kumzitz on the roof; this is sound, reasonable advice on every level. You admit he’s depressed, but deny the possibility of a medical mood disorder?! This makes sense?
I know what the DSM IV is and am glad that you do too.
I would like, at this point, to thank you for dealing with me respectfully, even though we clearly don’t see eye to eye. I know I’ve been a little abrasive, but it’s only because I care and I don’t wish to sugar coat everything.
Best and thank you.
WOW–
The fact that other families in your community are going through the same thing or worse doesn’t prove anything. Most Jews don’t keep the Torah, does that prove that the Torah isn’t authentic?
There may in fact be many others who seem depressed or smoke, but you need to look at the entire picture. You can’t say that most of them are as troubled as you portray your son to be. Your son belongs to a small minority. Like you said, you know “8 families” out of many hundreds. That’s a very small minority.
As far as your family doctors and psychologists who have already ruled out bipolar, I say that they are not a position to rule it out any more than I am in a position to diagnose him. There is an expression that says that ‘if you are a hammer all you see are nails’. If you see a given specialist, he will try to figure out which condition that he happens to specialize in could be the cause of the symptom. Psychologists cant directly treat bipolar since it requires meds, so naturally they dont look for it. They see an angry defiant kid and they want to sit and talk with them because thats what they do. Everybody knows that psychologists are notoriously lousy diagnosticians. Ask any established bipolar person, who is now treated and stable, how many psychologists they needed to see before anyone had the good sense to refer them to a psychiatrist.
Lastly, and repeatedly, I’m not saying your kid is bipolar. I’m saying he might be. And considering the grave consequences of untreated bipolar disorder, I can’t understand why you’re resisting. How can you adamantly state he is not bipolar when I’ve already proven to you that you know little about the condition? You’re making an awefully hefty wager about something you don’t know a whole lot about, and the consequences of not diagnosing the condition are dire (15% suicide rates, 90% divorce rates, unemployment, substance abuse etc.).
Thanks.
I would urge all of the regular contributors on this board to stop minimizing the gravity of the situation by unprudently suggesting that the boy is going through some normal, transient stage that all or most teens go through. Most teens don’t curse their parents, let alone to their face. Most teens don’t wander the streets, almost every night, until 4am. Most teens don’t smoke, and many won’t drink, except under normal social circumstances like a wedding or bar mitzvah. Most teens aren’t depressed, anxious, and have a low self-esteem. Very, very few teens drop out of Yeshiva, and almost no teens tell their parents they “want to be a street kid”. Clearly you are trying to be helpful, but in reality all that is accomplished is a build-up of wishful thinking by WOW. Has it occured to anyone that the boy might actually be suffering from a REAL MEDICAL CONDITION? Do you give an asthmatic or diabetic a warm and fuzzy hug in the hopes of getting him to feel better, or do you say go see a doctor? I know everyone wants to believe that psychiatrists are there to treat ‘other peoples problems’, certainly ‘I or my child doesn’t need one’, but perhaps its time to see this for what it is?
WOW–
Let me understand this clearly; you’re willing to speak with family, friends, rabbonim, therapists, and perfect strangers on this board, but you’re not willing to speak to a psychiatrist? This is logical?
In a previous post you said that your son didn’t have a manic episode and therefore cannot be diagnosed with bipolar disorder. There are many forms of the illness and in Bipolar disorder type2, patients exhibits little or no signs of mania. You obviously have a limited understanding of this condition. If you are desparate as you contend, why won’t you explore all avenues?
WOW-
I have been silently reading your posts for quite a while now. I’m the raving lunatic who a while back brought to your attention the distinct possibility that your son, who you have raised so prudently and dilligently, may actually be suffering from an underlying mood disorder, namely bipolar disorder. You didn’t buy it and I had no intention of nagging. However, as this thread has unfolded, I want to remind you of some of the things you have told us about your son:
-he has a serious anger problem
-he is depressed
-he lies
-he does not sleep at night
-he relies on alchohol and cigarettes to cope
-he is moody
These are all signs of a possible underlying mood disorder.
If all of the above were true, but there was a history of abuse or serious traum, then my attitude would be different, but you claim that you have provided him with a functional, warm home. Based on what I’ve read, I absolutely believe that. So that leaves us with only two options; either you are in complete denial, or you simply have no clue what the face of mental illness looks like. Of course, there is a possibility your son does not have a mood disorder, but you won’t know until you investigate the matter.
In my previous posts, you’ve responded that his behaviour began after several negative experiences with his Rosh Yeshiva, and a few rotten kids who harrassed him. Maybe so, but you fail to realize that those incidents may have been the trigger that ignited the flame of the illness. Often people with a predisposition for mental illness will do just fine as long as all is well in their life. But when a crisis or other chaos arrives, the otherwise latent condition rears its ugly head.
WOW–you’ve listened to and implemented every piece of sound advice given to you on this board. Tragically, none of it has worked. If there was a 10% chance that what I’m proposing would guide your child in the right direction would you try it? Of course you would. What about 5%? Probably so.
Your child’s behaviour is out of line with the values and principles you have instilled in him. He has grown in a warm, caring and functional home. You deeply care about him and have exhibited a clearly open and non-judgemental attiitude about his defiance. You are asking for but a bit of respect, consideration, and sensitivity, yet he persists on a path that is totally erratic, unpredictable and lacks any logical explanation.
Can you honestly tell me, after everything I have spelled out for you, that the possibility of an underlying mental disorder is unrealistic?
Find a good psychiatrist (that’s a medical doctor, not a therpaist), preferably one that is comfortable and accustomed to diagnosing mood disorders and bipolar disorder and provide your son with the medication he needs (assuming the doctor in fact makes that diagnosis)to function normally.
I really think you should heed my advice.
RKK-
I agree completely. It baffles the mind how what was implemented to conceal an element of the beauty of a woman (not G-d forbid make her unattractive, just conceal part of her radiance)has now turned into a powerful tool for trendyness, fashion, peer competition, and attraction. The long, flowing, curly wigs simply need to go. They are a far cry from what chazal enacted and envisioned. The ‘yeshiva style’ short wigs, which are certainly better, seem out of line as well. Can any intellectually honest fellow look at these fashionable custom made creations and proclaim that this is what our great Rabbi’s of yesteryear meant when they said a married woman needs to cover a hair? It borders on mockery! These wigs provide some of the most beautiful hair ever grown on a persons scalp in the most delectable arrangements and styles. All in the name of modesty?
I am forver indebted to my wife who wears hats and snoods and therby sacrifices not looking like a model and impressing her ‘really really modest friends’ that all ‘begrudgingly’ wear a custom made wig, all in the purest of intentions (KEEP DREAMING THAT YOU WILL GET SCHAR FOR THIS).
I realize some gedolim allow wigs. May Hashem bless them. I side with the gedolim that forbid it.
RKK, can you please tell me which gedolim say all “tzaros come from wearing sheitels”? I would love to include that the next time I argue with some know-it-all from the Yeshivish Velt.
Thanks for responding.
I wanted to clarify one thing I said which you may have misunderstood. I said borne out of bipolar is the need to rebel, not borne out of the need to rebel is bipolar. ie. Bipolar comes first.
In any event, I respect your position, but would ask you to keep my advice to you in the back of your mind in case matters dont unfold the way you would like. If you want to take this just a step further, perhaps get an easy to read book about the illness as it presents in teenagers and compare it to your sons behaviours. That might help you make a more informed decision instead of relying on half-truths, myths, and misguided thinking.
Thanks for listening. Best of luck.
BRAINFREEZE
I just posted recently about seeing a psychiatrist regarding the possibility of your son having bipolar disorder. I wanted to add that I just read through some of your posts….you mention emotional mood swings, control issues, anger issues, and the belief that ‘his rosh yeshiva hates him’. These are all common in bipolar disorder, especially the last one. I truly feel there might be an underlying mental issue here. I know the advice I am giving you is unconventional as, like most posters here, they will tell you to love him, smile at him, give him space etc. and while thats all valid, it would seem to me that you have already been doing that with only minimal success. I really want you to take what I am saying seriously and give it some thought. If I’m right (and I very well may be wrong), no amount of talking or therapy in the world will resolve this issue. Bipolar disorder is a medical issue that requires medicine as well as therapy. Fortunately, it is highly treatable, if treated correctly (no anti-depressants or stimulants).
Rule out the presence of a mood disorder in general and bipolar disorder in particular. This illness is very common in Jews and from it is borne out the urge to rebel, self medicate with drugs/alchohol, and make poor judgement calls. If your child seems depressed, “ADHD”, has anxiety, or displays any other sort of mental issue they should be evaluated by a psychiatris who can and will diagnose bipolar in teenagers. A family history of mental illness is also very common.
HEALTH: “Also, Jews had access to the land way before the Zionists declared a State.”
Yes, HEALTH, they had access, at the risk of having their heads chopped off.
And are you really going to compare the Jewish presence prior to the State to after? ie. The shear number of Yeshivos, seminaries, shuls, Jewish businesses, and Orthodox comminuites?
Yes it’s a two way street, but that is an entirely different discussion. The point I was making is don’t bite the hand that feeds you. Every Jew on this planet benefits from the State Israel ,especially Orthodox Jews who take advantage of the religious avenues for growth it provides. To then lamblast it and the army is utter kfooy tova. JMO of course.
Simply never ceases to amaze me how ungrateful so many people who supposedly espouse Jewish values can be. How many of the posters here who have spoken poorly about the State of Israel or the army have enjoyed a visit to Israel or have children studying/living there? How many people who speak derogatorily enjoy benefits, monetary or otherwise from the State? None of this would be possible without the government and the Army. This isn’t difficult; when someone improves your life in any which way the appropriate response is to give thanks. Don’t complicate matters a whole lot by thinking too hard.
I already see a few of you shaking your head and pointing out just how clueless I am. “It’s Hashem providing the benefit, not this rotten State” so many of you claim. Your reasoning is faulty. Hashem provides the benefit for everything at all times, no exceptions. Do you withhold a thank you from the stranger in front of you who held the elevator door open because it’s all from Hashem anyway too? You thank the person who carried out Hashem’s will, regardless of their intentions. Without the State of Israel and the Israeli Army would your sons be learning in Jerusalem, your daughters in seminaries? Go ahead and reap the benefits of the State and the Army then sit back and whine about those very same people that gave you access to the land in the first place.