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Hey.. I think I was at your table! (just kidding!)
From your post, several things come across:
2) GO and head of dance, ect? Again, same phenomena; you are simply outshining the boys in your age group. Yes, they knew all about your accomplishments, and the shaddchan presented you in your true colors, and it looked very good on paper, but when confronted with someone as dynamic as you most likely are, the boys (which is what they really are) simply freeze, and say dumb things.
Photo, no. In person meeting, yes. In fact, I would not deal with a shadchan who does not want to take the time to meet my boys.
Of course, you cannot judge a person from a 10 minute meeting, but you can tell a whole lot more from a face-to-face than you can from a photo. The stance, the handshake, the eye contact, the “ganze geshtel” (sorry, there’s no good english word for that)
Whoopee! Does that mean I also get a cut?
Obviously, this is an old post, but a year later still (if not more so) a relevant one.
I’d have it re-redt, but with a new shadchan, as its doubtful the original one will be as motivated the 2nd time.
If it works, the $ can be split between the 2 (and of course, be sure to level with shadchan # 2, so there are no surprises)
I’m surprised no one asked the most vital question of all:
Was Dovid carrying the sandwitch on China or plastic?
Another suggestion – You might consider posting a brief outline of what your looking for:
Yeshivish, or MO
Learner or Worker
Acceptable age range
What continent (no telling from the web where anyone is today, so that’s important)
That way, if someone has somethhing of relevance, we can froward a contact to the Moderator
With the readership YW CR has, someone may know him!
I feel funny being the only male to comment, but if it helps, look at it this way:
(discalimer: this is story is about a YU / UWS couple, so it may not apply to everyone, but the point is relevant)
Pesach 1995, one of my friends was dating someone, and unsure of where things were going, and to further complicate things, someone else who he DID want to date, ahd just come available. By Summer 1995 he was dating girl # 2, but it was also stalled.
By Nov. 1995 he was married to girl # 2.
Point is, 7 months before his wedding, he had not even dated his wife. Once things click, they start steamrolling fast. In fact, there is every likelyhood you might get engaged before this thread is closed! (And be sure to post the good news on the CR)
I’m in, but I’d rather wait a week to see where the shortage is. When we get our bungalow colony receipe booklet after the “taste-a-thon” its 95% cookies and cake or 20 varitaions of Apple Cobbler.
IMHO its a matter of taste fisrt, and budget second. The piece you like and will admire when it sits in your breakfront may cost under $500, so that migt be a better value than getting a $1500 monster for $750.
If it were me, I’d aim for something that wil be a good neighbor to your Shabbos leicher. (and not what your neighbors will admire)
Folks, we are talking about Yaakov Avinu like he’s subject to the same motivators like we are in the 21st century.
The Torah wraps these “stories” in a package that our mind can grasp, but don’t think for one minute that we are even in the Avos’s shadow.
We can learn from the “maaseh avos” but we should not judge them, as we are not even on the same playing field
Arc-
“can” means that if you are willing to accept your shortcomings and those of the people who are in your relative arena, you can find a compatible spouse. Not a perfect one, as anyone knows there is no such thing, but one with which you can both build a future.
And it makes no difference if you’re 30 or 45, there ARE people in your situation who would make a good partner. Does that mean at 40 you need to make peace with a size 16? Or someone with 8 kids? Depends on what you’re bringing to the table. But to reject someone becuase “its not what I’m looking for”? PLease, after you’ve dated 200+ people you still cant find someone that fits your bill, the problem is in your lap, not the shadchans. (makes no diffenrce which gender you are). I overheard my wife on the phone discussing a shidduch with a friend about 2 people in very their late 20s. From the questions, you would think they were talking about a just out of the freezerBMG boy and a just off the plane Sem girl. Hello? At this age and after the number of folks they have turned down, they should just go out. Yes, I know it costs $100+ to go on a date, and its lots of work and preparation and there is always the chance of being disapointed. Know what? Marrige is the same thing. And if at almost 30 these 2 kid are still not grasping what’s involved, there is a crisis of a different sort
One of the comments correctly pointed out that while the 14% are still in a lot of pain, our current system, with all its flaws, boasts of a 86% success rate.
Yet, none of these things presented an obstacle I could not overcome. What was the magic bullet? My parents raised me to believe in my abilities, but not convince me that I had abilities that I truly do not possess. And with this in mind, I could not expect to be given every opportunity that others (yichus, money, looks) will be handed.
Hopefully some of the 14% will take a good look at themselves and realize they have at least, if not more, going for them than half of the 86% that are married. Some times, clearly seeing the facts help you find the solution that is right under your nose.
It also bears mention that there are many single men in their 30s and 40s who, because they are reluctant to face reality, are still convinced they can expect to be redt a 24 year old. Impossible? Nothing is impossible. But the clock is ticking, and its valuable time.
EDITED
Few people hate housecleaning more than husbands, but I must admit that the once in a while that I do the dishes (usuually, motzoi shabbos) its a very big sense of satisfaction, and makes Mrs. very happy. Its not going to change the world, but once in a while goes a long way.
Mostly, I help out by taking clothes from the dryer so she has less to fold (gotta start somewhere!)
Mod 99 –
Thanks. In re-reading my 1st post, I have no idea why I would think that “totty” would spring to mind (as opposed to BP something else).
I guess my role as totty plays a bigger part in me than I realize.
Working –
Living in BP, Yiddish is my 2nd language, but my kids (who are more yeshivish than BP-ish) would sooner use the word teef (as in “ah teefer gedank”) than I would. If I wanted to make the same point, I would probalby say “Me’darf git aran-trachten de’rin”. Same idea, but as a yiddish speaker, one just sounds more BP-ish.
As it happens, my yiddish has a very chassidshe favor, yet my ivrah is more yeshivish, so “teef” might very well make its way into a statement of mine.. at one of my more yeshivish moments
So what to do? Go with the mainstream, and become Mrs. Choshov (but not necessarily a very happy, impressed one), or buck the trend and get a real mentch. Truly, a real tough decision. (but I know what my call would be)
Cholent –
The moisad that is offering the package is responding to what the oilam wants. (Kind of the way today’s music only offers what the oilam will buy.) The problem is not them; its us.
And it makes no differnce if the gedoile ha’dor come out against $100-200 bottles of scotch or not; its hashkoficly in the same boat (no pun intended) as a glatt kosher cruise to the Bahamas for $5,000 pp; it may have the best hechsher, and daily minyonim, but to say this is making gedolie ha’dor proud of us? I don’t think so.
And if you must know, I’m only going to put in for the cheaper package (two reasons: 1) the odds are better, as the $1800 deal will be THE biggest draw and 2) The cheaper pkg is the brands that I know, and can afford to replace, once I finish the last of the lot.
Don’t get me wrong; I like gashmius as much as the next guy (or Mrs). But to wrap it in the guise of torahdikeh living? I stopped kidding myself once I became a totty (’cause otherwise my kids would nail me)
Cholent –
I hear your point, and I know that many gedoilim have rendered opinions of the permissability of scotch, but I cannot help wondering if this is not similar to the famous “R’ Moshe paskened its ok to celebrate thanksgiving day” claim. I Read the t’shuva and the conclusion I came to is, while he does not say its assur, to suggest that he felt it was something to be instituted? No, absolutly not.
To say that the poskim that rule in favor of scotch would be proud to see $1800 prize packages of booze, and the “redden in lerenen” that is going on in this post as Toras Moshe? Hmm.
51 posts? about the pros and cons of Scotch? No wonder we have a teen (and adult) drinking problem.
Not that we are to shoulder the blame entirely; a prominent yeshiva just mailed out its annual auction catalouge, and one of the $25 tickets is for $1800 (yes eighteen HUNDRED dollars) worth of booze. 10-12 bottles, some scotch, some bourbon. There is also a smaller package, mostly the brands I can afford. (those tickets are $10)
Disclaimer: I’m a once-a-week drinker. But to engage in a discussion about it? We have some proirities to examine. I once heard the said in the name of a early 1900s mashgiach, “its bad enough to express a like (or dislike) about food” but to TALK about the virtues of certain foods? That’s in the geder of nivul peh.
Wow, have we fallen
Mrs (Ms.?) H (I’m avoiding the use of her first name) is absoilutly correct. Rules of tznius (which applies to both men and women)are esseintial. I work in a mixed office (gender and religion) and the frum people on the staff make every effort to keep to the title of “am kodosh”.
We need not hide under a rock, but at the same time, we need to be mindful of who we are
Seichel –
I skipped rent because BYOB’s 2 main buildings have long been paid for.
PM –
Since no moisad ever reveals what they pay to each staff member,its all guesswork. But if you average out 1st year teachers assitanst that work part time, for $10-12 /hr and full timer teachers with some experince that probably get $20-25 an hour (any teachers out there, please correct me if I’m wrong, aside from the pricipals (who probalby get $40-50K) my guesswork is probably not that far off. Of course, the administartor is probably getting $100k, but that’s a whole other issue.
And the $4000 / child tuition estimate was from Rabbi Shapiro, not me.
With 200+ posts, I’m pretty sure someone has made the following calculation, but just in case, this was the math I came up with over the weekend:
This is based on comments from R’ Shapiro’s interview in Hamodia’s weekend edition: Staff is about 400 people, figure about $3,000,000
Tution roll of aproximatly $8,000,000 (2000 students @ $4000)
That means there is still another 5 mil to work with. All that goes for chalk and copy paper? PLus, there was no mention about govt $ (which must surely be in the very high 6 digits). Sad fact is, no one is minding the store, becuase for SOOOO many years, there was more money coming in (a quick trip to XYZ gevir could yeild $50 grand, just for asking) so it was never a problem. Now, its a problem?
Sounds like someone is due for an audit. I’ll bet any business man or woman with 10 years experience could revamp BYOB and make it profitable. But that would require full disclosure on BY’s part… something mosdos will NEVER agree to.
And that is why the public is so sceptical and so complacent. Do they want help, or do they just want more money? We’d love to help. Money? Hmm. Not so fast
Chaim and Ivan board the 12:10 out of Chelm, bound for Pinsk. Wanting to be polite, Chaim makes small talk with his seatmate and after a few minutes, Chaim and Ivan settle in for the remainder of the ride.
Shortly after 1:00, Chaim pulls out the lunch his aishes chayil prepared for him, a healthy slice of gefilte fish, on a bilkeh.
Again, wanting to be polite, Chaim asks Ivan what he has for lunch.
Seeing what Chaim has for lunch (but not knowing what it is, but wanting to be polite in return) Ivan asks what he is having for lunch.
AZ –
My point is, that even afer the 5 years, those 27 year old boys will marry older girls (it just takes them time to realize they don’t have the wow factor to get dates with 19-20 year olds (though why they would even want to is beyond me). At 25+, boys should feel comfortable with girls that are 23+
Seichel –
Once the dust settles, you will see that for every boy, there is a girl and vice versa. What I meant by “50 oldest boys leaving” is they start working in a new arena,one that is not as glitzy, and with less fanfare, but one that has girls their own age. The problem is, the boys have not taken the steps to be seen as serious adults (something unfortunatly not expected of a 23 year old boy)so while there are loads of highly accomplished women in their mid 20’s there are “no boys available”. Of course there are boys… they’re just unprepared to match up with thier female counterparts.
But in the end, all find their match, it just takes awhile.
I just saw a video of a chasseneh, and it took the machetenistas more than 10 tries to get the plate to break. A hammer would have been a great idea!
Jphone –
Your idea of “girls having a list” is most likely already in play. True, every boy in BMG is walking around with a top 40 wish list, but the sad fact is, only top boys will ever get a date with the top girls. So while the remaining 400 or so “average” boys walk around kidding themselves about what their true marketablity is, the “arverage” girls are forced to wait until bocher’l wakes up and smells the coffee.
But ultimatly, EVERY boy marries a girl. It just seems to take longer, but in the end, boy and girl get married at the same time.
As far as the island analogy goes, at some point, the 50 oldest boys swim to another island, becuase the new competetion makes them look old and tired. Its just done with less fanfare
Great idea for 2 reasons (IMHO)
1) girls should wait till 20 before plunging into adult life, where there are no “do-overs” and mistakes come with a steep price to pay. Let them learn about life, and be better prepared to face what marriage really entails.
2) Since boys enter the shidduch market at 22-23, they SHOULD be dating girls that are 20. Its a sad comment on our boys, if they see an 18 year old as their peer.
And for the record, I speak from experience; I was a 21 year old, the Mrs was 19. Though its been 20+ years, I think I would have made less mistakes (some very costly) had I been somewhat older. Can’t speak for her, but I know I said / did some dumb things, all because of a lack of maturity
And the best part of those camp years? Seeing Rabbi Sacks dance on the table at shalesh sudos. 30+ years later, I still think of that scene.
Not sure which remark is better.. Working’s or Jphone’s
Working –
I LOVE that answer. BTW, we eat on plastic. That said, I would show the kallah the respect of serving her first meal at our house on china, ect. But to say that we are going full time? When we move to Southhampton. or Beford Ave. But living in 11219? Sorry, we’re too real to be busy with appreances. BP is not just an address, its a mind set (I’m a galitzianer, so maybe that explains it).
With regards to hiking and eating, IMHO, both are indicative of a good all around sense of happiess, and self esteem. Not to say camping for 2 weeks, or eating for 5, but a healthy appetitie shows she grew up in a supportive home.
More importantly. how is her potato kugel? That, more than anything else, shows how she was raised.
Cantor –
The key word is refined. If you (and your community) feel what you’re wearing is up to par, kol ha’kavod. But if you’re wearing it with an in-your-face attitude, thats another story.
My shul is frequented by many visitors, as we are walking distance to both BP hotels. And yes, the occasional guest wallks in without a jacket (and sometimes even in sandals w/o socks!). But if I were to do that, I’d get my head handed to me.
Bottom line: if you feel like you’re dress code is appropriate, its your call. But what if the next person (or perhaps your own child / child-in-law) wants to take id down a notch to where THEY feel comfortable? That’s why we have standards. And for the most part (where its a grey area) our gedolei hador set those standards. OU/YU may have different standards than Chabad or Satmar, but they have one common denominator: They try to look like their zeides and babbes, in both deed and presentation.
Mazel tov!
Our boys are aprox 2.5 year apart, so we’ve been thru this before. Lots of love, and private time with sib # 1 is a must. Even if its only 10 minutes a day. And understand how he feels: Imagine being told by your spouse, that since you value him / her so much, you’ve decided to get another one! And not to worry, you’re not being replaced, this is just a new addition to the family. Oh, and you’ll need to start sharing your room, toys, time and attention (that, till now, was 100% yours) with this new arrival.
How would that fly with you? In many ways, this is what we are telling sib # 1. Its not until the later years they understand how much fun a partner can be (and no, I’m not advocating for a 2nd spouse!)
Whoa Jothar, I think you’re being a little too harsh. While I did not read the Purim post you are refering to, I don’t think that questioning the status quo automaticaly makes someone a kofer. MO maybe, but an Outkast? That’s steep.
Cantor – By the very story of the Alter you post, the point of a dress code is only further substantiated. Refined people (jews and goyim) dress like a mentch when in the presence of Someone or something greater than themselves. Even Eisov (so says the medrash) put on his best clothing to serve Yitzchok. What you wear says alot about where you’re coming from.
As far as being meshadech with you, my critera is very simple: if your daugher thinks a rollerblade is an attachement to a food processor, she is a fine girl, but not what we are looking for. If she knows the right answer, chances are she knows her way around the kitchen as well. I’d also like to know what’s on her Ipod (another good indicator of who the person really is. Not that there’s a right or wrong in taste of music; but its does tell you who your’re dealing with. Money, looks, dress size, ect, ect, are all relative anyways, so I don’t make that a priority. Obviously, middos, religion and presentability have to be reasonably compatible, but that could be said for 90% of girls and boys. Its the last 10% that makes a marriage work (uh, oh.. I’m off topic – Sorry Mods!)
(and if any of my real world friends are reading this, my anonymity has been shot out of the water!)
Azoi – I’m re-posting parts of your post, so I can reply (in CAPS, so I’ll keep it short) without skipping any of the points you raise:
“Since there is such a risk of assimilation, I and my Mrs. choose to err on the side of caution” confuses me. – BETTER TO BE TOO FRUM THAN NOT ENOUGH FRUM
Caution about what? What are you preventing? What are you guaranteeing? You feel a certain mode of dress is the prescription for success in any area? – TRYING TO PREVENT THE LOSS OF WHAT MAKES US BNEI YESHIVA. NO GUARANTEES, BUT IDENTIFIING WITH A GROUP GIVES ONE A SENSE OF PURPOSE.
I realized that dress (men’s, NOT women’s), has little bearing on one’s serious life choices. If anyone can convince me that there are a smaller percentage per person, of cases of infidelity, divorce, depression, OTD kids…among other problems, in groups wearing Black Hats and dark slacks at all times, you might have me newly convinced of their importance. – NOTHING “PREVENTS” ANYONE FROM ANYTHING, BUT IT MAKES YOU THINK TWICE, AND SOMETIMES (at least for human beings like myself) THAT 2 SECOND HESITATION MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN AVOIDING TROUBLE SPOTS.
the problem with the Black Hat approach to Chinuch, is their utilizing Yiras Hashem more than Ahavas Hashem. HERE, WE AGREE (BUT EXTRA INSURANCE IS PRUDENT IF YOU HAVE LOTS TO LOSE (I doubt you carry 10/20 on your car insurance… most likely 100/300 like me. Again the operative word is caution)
Oh btw, I’m a Black Hat type. (ME TOO!)
Cantoresq –
OK, truce. And thanks for painting a much clearer image of what Shabbos looks like on your block. (I thought you were talking about the kind of clothes I would wear to go hiking / biking). I think the divide we are on is that in the zip code I was raised in (BP.. natch) image is what you grow into, so the image you choose in many ways will determine who you become.
There is a story (heard on a R’ Krohn tape) about the Satmar Rebbe and his visit to Telze in the 50s. Story goes: he took the bochurim to task for having “chups” and they responded by asking about his davening past the zman. His reply: I’m copying the custom of my father, his father, and his father before that. Who’s custom (hair style) are you copying?
Point is, if your intent is to truly honor Shabbos (Izod blazer and all), you are getting the same schar that the chosid who is shzvitzing away in his bekkeshe. Not so the one who looks at our holy day as the preface to the weekend (I know, I know, Sunday is not the weekend). Thanks for clearing up the misunderstanding.
But a green plaid shirt?? Take my advice, go with the Polo oxford… Gavra is right; shidduchim! 🙂
cantoresq –
My idea of Oneg Shabbos is going to the Rebbe’s tish, another’s idea is getting together with friends. But proper decorum is first and foremost. I was with you on your inital post, but in your 2nd, you equate a “book” to a “sefer”, and that’s where we part company. A “book” is something you read and you’re done with it. A sefer is our link to Hashem. Along the same lines, the Shabbos day is our link to Hashem.. not just another day off.
If your choice was a crisp Polo oxford, Gucci loafers (without socks) and tropical weight wool slacks, going for a walk with the family, no one would blink. But khakis? or shorts? Playing in the yard? That’s pushing it by anyone’s standards.
Few people my age (over 40) enjoy the outdoors as much or as often as I do. But Shabbos is Shabbos. I’ll let you (and the rest of the CR) in on another secret; I scale back my outdoor activities during the 9 days and yemeie sleichos, not because “its not allowed”, but because those days are different. And we need to show that we recognize them as such. Not because of “what the neighbors will say” but because of what WE need to say (meaning need to stand for)
No doubt, your children and neighbors know you for what you truly are, and the fact that you can give shiur on short notice speaks volumes about you. But every community needs to have safeguards in place. Clothing is the choice of the Europeans and Lithuianains. Not necessarily the only safeguard or the surest guarantee, but one that has worked for us.
When you’re part of a team, you need to wear the uniform. Which is not to say, that MY choice of garb is the only choice. But if you want to be part of the team, you need to conform. I work in an office, so there is a certain level of flexibility that I have. But I also daven in a shul, and have black-hat mesivta boys, so regardless of what flies at the office, I need to make sure that what I do is in sync with the rest of who I am.
Clothes dont give the shiur, but it does (to an extent) define who you are, and who you want to be. “B’tzelem elokim” means we are Hashem’s represenatives. Does that mean I need to wear long pants in the swimming pool? No. But does it mean I can wear a Speedo? Again no. Because its not who I am, or who I want to be
Although, I still catch myself refering to my almost-out-of-teen year old son as ______-boy! (its a hold over of ours from his toddler years)
YW Mod # 72 – (and in my office, the retort we hear for saying hey is, “hay is for horses”, so I try real hard to avoid “hey”)
Can anyone advise on what’s involved in posting a new thread? Do you need to be vetted by the CR mods? Or did I just not post it right? If someone else knows how to do it, I could post it here, and you can post it for me (if the MODs are ok with this)
1) From the Coffee Room main page select Topic – Add New it is right above the sticky topics.
2) Put in a Title in the topic title area
3) Enter the Post in the post area
4) in the Pick a Section field – use the drop down box to select the most appropriate section.
5) click on Send Post
6) have patience all new topics need to be reviewed.
7) never post in a different thread, Hey Mod go check the new topics, I started a new topic and it isn’t showing up. for 2 reasons. 1) we know it is there and are evaluating it for approval or we may have already not accepted it 2) “Hey” is not an acceptable salutation for a Mod. we worked very hard to attain the Mod title and we expect to addressed as “Honorable” Mod not “Hey” Mod. :o).
Hope this was helpful
YW Moderator-72
Mod 39 –
Maybe the water in your camp was not as cold. MA was in Livingson Manor (very cold!)
P.S. – At the risk of being nailed for hijacking a thread, I think this could be expanded to “things I learned how to when the 80% of your kitchen (and 100% of your wife) is in the mountains”.
Did you know you could bake hamburgers on a cookie sheet?
Did you know that carrots /poatatoes can be eaten without being peeled?
Did you know that NOTHING can open cans besides a can opener (not screwdivers, not pliers)
Ahh, summertime!
1)cans of soda will chill when placed in the toilet tank (or dragged from the canoe)
2) Open the can of beans BEFORE you place in the campfire
3) Lanyard can be used as a shoelace replacement (oh, the look I got from Mom when she saw me on visiting day
Courtesy of Mogen AV
(the list goes on, but I’ll leave some for the rest of the room. Its doubtful everything I did was original)
Not much can top a story like that (both in terms of content and writing style).. except for the daily miracles we all experieince, but fail to see them for what they are. Your story helps us see things a bit clearer. So if any good can come from your accident, its knowing that you help others see the gift of life for what it truly is.
My parents are BH in good health. Yesterday, I visited them, not because it was yom tov, and not because there was a problem. I visited them just becuase. And it made them feel like they hit the lotto. CR members, ask yourselves: Why wait till the ER do wish you could have? Do the nice things NOW.
I’m here.. but as a newcomer, I’m not sure of what use this roll call might be. Could someone enlighten me?
Harriman state park has easy-to-climb trails, and most are in the shade (under tree cover. Best of all, its only 20 minutes from Monsey. The best site is NY / NJ Trails Conference (site is http://www.nynjtc.org/view/hike)
I find it rather strange that a decade or 2 ago (when I / my friends were in shidduchim)there was no talk about a crisis as far as ratio of boys to girls or support as a bargaining chip. Could it be perhaps because back then, the young couple viewed their future as their own responsibility? So maybe, just maybe the solution lies in putting today’s youth back in the driver’s seat. If we stopped babying them, perhaps they’d have an eaiser time committing?
I think this issue is tied to the “close the shidduch gap” (I hope I don’t get slammed by the Mods as a topic hijacker!)
My boys will enter the shidduch market at 22-23, same as all their peers, but with a strong work ethic, and NO assurances from their parents that all their needs will be magically provided. Will we provide a decent wedding and running head start? Of course. But by the time they make the first phone call, they will have a rough idea of what is expected of them within the first year or two.. and a game plan of how they expect to achieve that goal.
Dating someone closer to their age should hopefully provide them with someone who (as Azi pointed out) shares this goal, and understands / appreciates what it takes to make it happen.