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I heard Gehenom described different ways, and I think its not a set answer to each level. To a grade school child, “fire” is the most vivid description of punishment. To an older person, the “fire” is the shame of messing up and letting Hashem down. To the next level, its realizing that you missed an opportunity to reach a level that could have been yours, but now you can only have regrets.
But I have no doubt that there is an element of roasting over coals for having done an averah on purpose. Not with a wood and kerosene fire, but something that is gonna hurt like, well, hurt like H–L.
Suffice to say, its best to avoid sinning and spend our time racking up mitzvos, as the payout is MUCH better.
However, to answer P’chochma’s question, this is really something that needs a Rov’s guidence, but if I were asked by a not yet frum (or struggling) person what awaits them in the world to come, it would only be to focud on the reward part. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
The “fire and brimstone” end of our religion is meant to keep us FFBs in line, and even that needs to be adminstered by a Rov or Rebbe. Its not a tool to be used by just anyone, so focus on the beauty of what awaits the faithful, not the punishment.
(Mods – please read the last line of the post.. you’ll see I’m getting back on topic)
Azoi –
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I’m still a 2-3 years away from entering the fray. so lets see what happens then. But in all fairness to the other memebers, I’d say 80% of the people here share some of the view to some degree or another. What I do seem to have, is the way in which to put the thoughts in writing (that’s a job related skill, by the way).
Besides, it doesnt seem like most folks are doing to bad at clinching deals. If anything at all, these threads bulid confidence for people to stick to what they believe in, if they see they are not alone.
I agree with Bodek on the temptation issue. The workplace can present real challenges to single men, and its much harder to fool your wife if you’re not behaving as you should. So while I left yeshiva before getting married, I would not be so quick to turn my boys loose into the real world without being at least engaged. On the other hand, I’m not letting my boys jump into a responsibility of raising a family if they don’t have a clue as to how they plan on paying for the bills that come with it. Help is one thing; welfare is another. I think 3 years is enough, and there should be a cap on the ammt.
IR –
PLEASE ask the shidduch group if you can share their contact info with me and if so, please forward it to the Mods, as I have 3 learner – earners lined up, as soon as they come of age. (hopefully, the wisecracking comments of their father won’t be held against them!
First post after the plea to stay on topic is off-topic. However since there is an important Toeles here and BP Totty is such a nice fellow, we’ll leave it alone.
I’m sort of on the same page as PBA, only I think what happens is the minute the $ gets tight (or there is the slightest hint that the promised “ois-halt” is not as rock solid as originaly thought) the happy couple comes to terms with the new reality and starts shifting from “full time learning” to a job in the morning or afternoon a few days a week, to a few more days a week, and before you know it, he is working full time, but still under the banner of “still learning”. With many jobs today not requiring 9-5 in NYC, you can “work” yet not attract unwanted attention.
As far as the “what will my friends / neighbors say” syndrome, that’s something I’m working real hard to eradicate from the globe, but so far, no luck.
As far as Tzippi’s comment, there I absolutly agree. The promised “ois-halt” should be based on what the boys “3 years time” earnings potential is. So for example, if the boy’s father is a lawyer or some other sort of proffesional, that makes $100,000 per year, then its reasonable to assume that the son will make 20% of that when he enters the job market 3 years after the wedding. After all, he needs some experience, so 20-25k is a fair start.
That being the case, the MAX a boy like this should get as a “sign-up” pacakge is the projected 3 years starting salary (or $600 – $700 / mo, 3 years cap).
If a boy’s estimated adult earnings (again, based on what is father currently makes) is closer to $50,000, than the “choson package” should be %20 of that $275 / mo, with a 3 year cap)
Not everyone is smart enough or ambitious enough to strike it really rich. So not every choson should get the same starting package. Is he a winner? Let him prove himself. I would love to have my neighbors car.. if I can afford it. If not, tough.
Why should a choson be any different? (and no, I do not have girls… I have boys only, so I CAN talk)
Mod 80 –
NOT FROM THE EAST?! And here I thought that all of the YW staff is based in Lakewood (or Passaic, at the very least).
What’s next? We find out that Mod 80s real name is Jordan? Though if you chose a hypothetical spouse name like Miriam Basya, that’s as Yeshivish as anyone can expect.
Mod 80 –
Ha Ha! But everyone knows if I WAS Jordan Fogel, I could not live in Deal, nor could my income be $92k. And I would most certainly not work for BP, but the “BP” pun was very funny!
Yoshi –
Yes, its true, BMI does not account for muscle, which is more dense than fat tissue. But I’ll venture a guess that most girls in shidduchim today are not athletes, so the weight to height ratio should be in the 18-20 BMI range.
I also realize that it seems to some CR members that my “obsession” with health and fitness (know your BMI number, ect) may seem as extreme as a shadchan’s obsession with dress size. For that, I apologize.
Think of your BMI number in terms of your blood pressure or cholesterol numbers. No, you do not need to live your life around it, but you should at least know (one a year, at the miminum) what your numbers are.
Realtalk –
1st of all, the data I revealed about my wife (who, like me, is middle age) is NOTHING to be ashamed of. Quite the contrary, she can run circles around folks 10 years younger than her.
2nd – the beauty of the CR is that nothing is revealed (expect to the mods,maybe) so even if she did take issue with what I wrote (which I doubt, because she spends her time on a mom site), no one knows its her
How ironic, this thread appears just after the “shidduchim and size zero” thread.
Want to know the primary cause of eating disorders? Its called “what will the neighbors say”!
We need to stop judging people by appearances!
At that height, to be a size zero, my guess would the most that person could weigh is 110 lbs. That’s a whopping 15 lbs less than my 5’3 size 8 aishes chayil. Perhaps of one the other CR folks can shed some light on the weight of a size zero, but figuring on 5 lbs per size, to go from an 8 to a zero, at 5’3, you would need to closer to 97 lbs which would put that person at a 17 BMI (rated as unhealthy on the BMI index)
All around health (mental and physical) should be the goal of today’s people in shidduchim. Not numbers. Read any article about the side effects of axorexia and bulimia, and I can tell you, that is the LAST person you want to marry, especially if your tachlis in life is building klal yisroel (v’hameven, yovin
If you want to talk numbers, make sure they are healthy numbers!
A 20 year old bocher should be fine anywhere in the 12 ave – 18 ave – 40 st – 60st box any time up till 11:00pm in the middle of the week, as late as 1:00 on a summer Friday night.
There is no “safe” time for an 8 year old to be out alone. Period.
EDITED
Time spent is the best investment you can possibly make in cementing a relationship with your child. Each child has diffeent needs, so you need to be flexible. One may want to go shopping to a mall, the other may want to eat out, the other may want to go driving. I have a 1/2 daf seder (using the Dial-a-Daf CDs) with my 14 year old, but not with his older brothers (who have 15 hour days in Yeshiva, as it is.
As long as the child in question knows this is his or her time, it will be banked for future reference. In one of the magazine suppliments that cam with either the Mishpacha or Hamodia Pesach issues, there was a story about a foster child that moves in with a family and its impact on the bio kids. Great story and very well written, but the prine line was from the social worker who tried to explain why foster kids need special handling.
As the average kid grows up, the parent makes periodical “deposits” in the affection bank. Attending a chumash party, sending a postcard to camp, ect. So when the occasional “withdrawl” needs to be made (disipline, saying no to a request, ect) there is what to draw against.
Foster kids often come on to the scene with a “deficit account” (negelct, abuse, zero self esteem, ect) so they need to be handled with care.
My point is, MAKE LOTS OF DEPOSITS (n the form of compliments and time spent) EARLY, so you have from what to draw from should the need arise
Unless the girl in question is under 5 ft tall, I’m willing to bet a size 0 puts her in the unhealthy category.
If she’s of average height (figure 5.5 or so) her size had better be closer 4 or a 6.
Wanna drive the shadchan nuts? Ask her what the girls BMI is (20 is ideal). If the Shadchan says, what’s a BMI?, if safe to assume the shadchan is probably a size 18 herself, so who is she to throw stones? (if its male shadchan, size 18 would be 46-48 REG)
In short, its not the dress size you’re marriying, its the person. Health matters more than appearences. And on the topic, it would not hurt us CR dwellers to google BMI and see where we rank. Health matters to all of us!
We bought it about a month ago. Our favorite song is Emes Its in Yiddish, and reminds us of Berri Webber / Lipa grammen.
YBNS – While I do feel for you, in as much as working all day for what amounts to about $10/day, were you working in a sleep-away camp, you would need to PAY for the privilge to work. No, I’m not kidding. The A list camps charge their junior staff to come to camp. Less than what a camper pays, but still not free.
If its any consolation, when I started my full time job, I was paid about 10% of what I get now. The increases come with learned skills and experience. The Res-Hab or hospital volunteer idea is a good one, as this will give you something to use on a future resume.
Its a nice way of saying, “will they give full support fo the first X years?”, withoiut actuually saying the M word
And cantor, your comment goes unanswered. Sorry
Think the sfardim are “lucky” they can eat rice? Consider this: before the rice goes into the pot, EACH GRAIN needs to be checked 3 times. So if you’re cooking for a family 6, figure on 4 cups of rice per meal. Know how many grains of rice are in a cup? Lots.
Plus they need to say selichos all of Elul (instead of just the 7-10 days us ashkenaizim get away with
Sorry – I forgot the suggestion. I belive Oorah’s Girls Zone will be open this summer for Aug as well. Definitly check into that. I heard really great things about the place / program.
ditto to Tommim Tihye – a “mother’s helper” job without mom on grounds is a recipe for disaster
If you have access to the CR, how can you be bored?!
I have’nt been fall-down drunk since my HS days, so maybe I’m not the best person to comment.
That said, I only allow the bottle to come to the table on friday night, afte rthe fish. And beer is only for shabbos day meal, and only if 2 or more people are going to share a bottle.
So I guess the rule of thumb we use is, MODERATION. Every day. The folks that run into a “drinking problem” are not drinking in moderation.
Go after pesach. From what I’ve heard and read, its virtualy impossible to have the hotel keep the same level of kashrus you would provide yourself at home when they are catering to a huge crowd. Mistakes happen.
No, they don’t serve bread by mistake. But bishul issues, wrong cleanser being used, a “not as frum guest” bringing in his own food to the meal, and using the house dishes (which then go back to the kitchen and into the dishwaher with the other 499 plates, which then comes back out as YOUR plate).
Besides, no matter where you go, you are looking a staggering cost of $1500 – $2500 per person. All this to fress, day and night? Is that what Hashem took us out for, to be his chosen people?
Go after Lag bomer without the guilt and almost definite kashrus pitfalls.
This was not me and my son for 2 reasons:
1) we went riding on Tueday nite
2) you will NEVER see us without a helmet
Feif – You are right for bringing this up. Helmets save lives in a severe collision. Even at a small impact, it absorbs much of the blow and deflects it around the entire helmet, greatly reducing the trauma to the brain.
For those of you who do not already know this, a blow to the head is very different than a blow to another bone mass. A break in the forearm will eventually heal.
A blow to the head causes the brain (which floats inside the skull) to slam into the inside of the skull, and that causes all sorts of damage. All which can be avoided by wearing a $30 helmet.
Ok, maybe spandex clothing in orange and red is not necessary. But a helmet? That’s mandatory.
Two summers ago, I took a nasty fall while riding. I bent my wheel, broke my brake housing, did a number on my shoulder, but when my head hit the ground (and I know it did, because my glasses were bent) the helmet saved me lots of grief.
Bottom line: wear a helmet
YTG –
It obvoius you spent a lot of time putting this togeterh, and it really well thought out (I did not read it entirley, but plan to on the way home) but unless you’re on the giving comittee of a multi-million $ charitable trust, I doubt any of us need such a complicated formula. Besides, I doubt I could pass such scrutiny when I ask for a heavenly handout (health, job success, kids not going off the deep end, ect) so why would I put someone else under such a severe microscope?
I’m at work, so I cannot look up the marei mekomos, but one of my favorites is:
The Wicked son gets a real curt reply, yet in the Chumash, his question is give a very elaborate, even loving, answer (If my memory is correct, it might even be the one that the Haggodoh give to the Wise son).
Why the change of tone? 2 reasons;
#1 – Becuase if after seeing all that has been going on in his house, he has the nerve to ask, “why all the fuss?”, he deserves to be put in his place
#2 – if he’s is still in “chumash” stage (meaning, he is still willing to learn, and wants to stay in the “koislei bais medrash”, we need to treat his questions differently
Each of us know (or have an element of) the wicked son in some form or another. Perhaps its even within our own attitudes. Lets deal with it while we are still on the same side of the obstacle.. its easier to deal with a partner than an opponent
Ecriop – May I ask, Are you jewish by birth? (and by that I mean specificly is your mother jewish?)
Becuase that’s the 1st question an orthodox rabbi will ask you.
Should this be the case, another good source is Aish.com or Chabad.org
If you are not jewish by birth and are considering conversion, that process will take about a year, and it will be a very challenging prospect. Often times, people are very at ease with the cultural aspects (holidays, foods, ethics, family ties, ect)of judiasm , but fail to consider the many restrictions and responsibilites that are very much a part of the whole package.
Another very important question that should be part of your quest; is your family behind you on this decision?
There’s an old joke about a frum yid that was reading an Anti-Semetic newspaper. His friend asked, “Hershel, why are you reading that?!”
Hershel replied, “when I read the heimesher newspapers, all I read about is the housing crisis, job crisis, who died, ect. When I read this paper, its full of good news! Jews own the banks, control the real estate markets, have an inside track to the political machine, ect.
Wanna cheer up? Read lies. Reality is not always so rosy (at least YWN spares us the shmutz)
26 (Funny, that was my score on the 10 grade math regent. The principal tried to cheer me up by reminding me its also the gematria of Hashem’s name)
We have a modest list of about 15 people and it takes about 3-4 hours to cover them all. That works out to about 5 minutes per stop (yes, Mrs. BP had a theme)
Unfortunatly, most Purims are mid-week, so I’m at work till 3:00pm. This year I was home, but I did something totally out in left field. I left the house on foot and went to 3 people;
1) a friend who is a Rebbie, and was tied down to the house for most of the day
2) a friend who is in the year, and would not be getting much traffic
3) a friend who is just not the “party animal” type, and gets little traffic
All 3 stops took about 2 hours, and I got to experience Purim from street level, instead of fighting traffic. And got to spend real time at each stop
So, I don’t think Ester H’s neighbor has anything against Purim or Shalch Monos; its the hysteria she (and probably lots of folks) want to see eradicated
I have’nt read each post, but I’m in favor of the Mods reviewing each post before it appears. I’ve had a few posts that did not make it past the mods; most I agreed with, one I did not.
Fact is, there are no shortage of blogs where you can rip anyone, and hear all sorts of loshon horah on every topic under the sun (and some that belong under a rock).
Yeshiva World should be different, as we (the Bnei and Bnos Yeshiva) are differnt. I may have an ax to grind and want to blast someone or something; the Mods give me the minute to reconsider.
Which odom godol or rebbe would advise a woman with 8 children to hold down 2 jobs?
Your daugher needs to ask the question point blank; not just keep on plowing thru the day, hoping to make it all work. Let her ask her rov / rebbe what they think. Not what the neighbors or her sibligs think.
She might be surpised at the answer.
OK, OK, you’re not asleep. But I had to stick up for the other Tattys (You’re right though.. I did not need to take a pot shot at mods.. Sorry!
Yanky 55 –
See? Its posts like ours (even though they are about MA, and not Sternberg) that paint a true picture of what the “non-manicured lawn” (I love that expression!) camps are all about. You were a camper for 9 years, ( I was there for about the same length).
Bottom line? Its a great way for today’s kids to see a broad spectrum of yiddin.
Smart cookie –
The Mods must have been asleep at the wheel, becuase you called me “best” instead of “BP”
EVERY totty is the best totty (or at least, is trying his hardest to meet that goal!)
In 1996, we bought a new minivan, and it gave us 8 years of hassle-free use, and another 4 years of limping along (engine trouble, electronic things not working, ect)
The end came when the engine sprung a leak that our mechanic said would cost more to find than the car is worth… and even then he could not guarantee the engine would run normally.
All told, (repairs, extended warranties, ect) we figured the 12 year cost to be $30,000 ($2500 per year over 12 years). And we were married to a van that was dying a little more each year beyond year 8.
This time we leased a new minivan @ $350 per month ($4200 per year). So for just $1700 a year, we have the freedom to switch to a car that is hassle-free all the time, plus the fact the in 3-4 years from now, should we need a car instead of a minivan (our son will hopefully be in shidduchim by then!) we have the flexibility to move around.
Not to say that $1700 is chump change, but it the scope of things, we felt it was well worth it
Ask someone to take a picture of you in your stupor. That will cure you next year!
Can’t comment on Sternberg, but I attended Mogen Av and Heller, so they may have similar traits.
That said, MA / Heller is less rah-rah, exotic trips and more bein odom l’chavairo, as the mix of kids tend to be a real mixed bag. (not all kids have 2 parents at home, not all kids come from Yeshivish homes, not all kids are 3rd generation USA, ect)
I benefited from the experience, and for the right kid, its a smart move.
But one thing you will not have at Sternberg, which we had at MA, is Rabbi Sacks at Shalesh Seudos (any MA Alums out there?)
Last night, I was in the new Satmar hall in Monsey (Ateres Chaya Sura). Its a “takonoh” hall, so there are some limitations, but overall, I was very impressed.
11:00 the music stops, so things start and end promptly
There is no musician or vocalist. The hall has a playlist you select from and that’s your music for the evening.
There are no photographers, They have wall mounted cameras all over the place, and a technician zooms in and clicks (its the same one who mans the music equipment)
The place is huge, the food is basic, but good, (no shmorg for the men.. not sure whatteh women get) the decor is top rate (rivals or surpasses any hall I’ve been to), and from what I heard, around $40 / couple, and that includes the hall provided music and pics.
Worth the trip.. even from BP!
Esther H –
As a male, I really cannot comment on this topic, but as a human being and a parent, I will say that the comment was uncalled for.
Even if it has some source in Torah (which I do not ever remember hearing) its not what you say to the parent who suffered the loss. Besides, I could quote dozens of mamrei chazal that give real chizuk to people who have just been tested as you have. (first place to look would be to see how the Torah deals with the loss of nadav and avihu).
Sorry for your loss and pain (not sure which hurts more)
Very good advice, based on her own admission. (she’s looking for someone just like him, yet not him?”)
Sounds like a commitment problem. I suffered from that too (after coming home from my first date with who was to become Mrs. BP). Except that I was 21, so my father said, nu.. whats the problem? ANd when I said “I don’t know” he said, “so apparently there’s no problem! I’ll call the shadchan to set up the next date” (Thanks, TA!)
Of course, in her 30’s that will never fly, so she needs to see a professional, so she is convinced that the advice she is getting is sound.
Best Ima –
You are right, bashing the parents is wrong. And not making sure mistakes don’t repeat themselves is even more wrong.
Like my uninsured example, wif we as a society do not learn from others mistakes, THAT is tragic. If an overworked mother needs to:
* deputize her 11 y/o to tend to the 2 month old,
* who is also asked to frying onions for the side dish, and
* answer the phone, (beauce no one else is nearby, and after the 4th ring the screaming starts)
* and in the process the skillet gets pulled off the stove and gives little 2 month old 3rd degree burns,
then yes, we need not beat up the mother who now has to drop everyting and go to the burn unit.
But after the burns heal, WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THE SAME MISTAKES ARE NOT REPEATED!
Sorry for yelling, but I see this scene with minor variations played out all the time(ok, not the burn unit ending.
Mom is working herself to death, Poppa is juggling more than he can as it is, and so the beat goes on.
So the right thing to do, when things do spin out of control is to look and see, “what can we, as a society, learn from this to make sure it does not happen again?”
If we do that, then the pain has not been for nothing. If we stay complacent, we should be ashamed of ourselves
Ease off the challah, have a salad with an oil based dressing by the daytime seudah.
Shabbos cannot be the cause of your problem (the tech term from the Shabbos me’shebairach is Shabbos he Melizik).
Its your diet.
I’m with you on the timing issue, and there is nothing gained from commenting on the departed as to what they should or should not have done.
However, we have had many stories of heads of families pasing away and leaving behind uninsured (or underinsured)yesomim, and now there is a mad scramble to raise $ to keep the family afloat. True, talking about the need for insurance now is pointless (after all, it won’t bring poppa back) but it SHOULD be talked about so that uninsured people walking around today will see the consequeses of not taking their responsibities seriously.
Will the surviors be hurt by “insensetive comments”. Maybe. But if the next “besura raah” has a different ending because of the lessons learnt from the 1st tragedy, they family (and the mais himself) will have a degree of nechomah as a result.
During the 6 Day War, a young paratrooper was getting himself ready before jumping into the warzone.
In preparation, he removed his grenades from the storage box in his knapsack, clipped them to his belt and transferred his tallis / tefillin and siddur into the storage box, feeling they would be better protected than just loose on the knapsack.
During his firefight, he was suddenly thrown off his feet, and knew he had been hit by a sniper shot. For some reason, he felt no pain, so he kept fighting.
Later in the day, he checked his knapsack and saw that the bullet that had thrown him earlier, has penetrated his storage box (the siddur took the hit)
I heard great feedback about Rocking Horse Ranch. Its in Kingston, NY (about 2 hrs from NYC) and is pretty reasonable,if you can fit 3 people in a room. The nice thing about it is, its a flat rate per day, and you can do all sorts of stuff (ski, snow tube, horseback riding, indoor stuff too).
PLus, this week, its got a kosher caterer
Not really the go-to-guy for things to do in NYC, but if I had visitors from out of town (not EY; places like middle america), I’d take them to see Shomer Shabbos, 770, bobov, satmar, (does’nt matter which).
If they’ve never seen a tish (and not all folks have) they might find that ineresting. If that’s too much to handle, the “balagan” of 13th avenue, Lee Ave,or Kingston Ave is also a real eye-opener.
Or just let them watch dismissal at a major yeshiva / BY. That still fascinates me (and I live here!)