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I thought it was just my shul.
You are right; the ammount it takes to say from after Onoh Hashem, is less than 30 seconds. Forget about omain after the bracha.. I sometime miss yehei shmei from kaddish as well!
And its not like the Baal Tefila has a dislike for shlepping. Go figure
I was told rebbeim can earn around $50,000 after 10 years experience, at the better yeshivas in NYC. And lots of moey can be made tutoring, if you don’t mind working 15-18 hour days
No idea what teachers get in girls schools.
Sonce you mentioned Far Rockaway, you should also consider Bayswater, which is a few blocks away from Far Rock proper. I looked there about 10 years ago and from what I hear, its gotten nicer yet. Schools are a bit of a challege (its either carpool to Bklyn or Darchei).
IMHO, the topic of tznius really should not be discussed between folks of the opposite gender that are not close family (although at times, the CR sure seems like one!)But if it come down to it, I’m a little more at ease in discussing tznuis issues with another woman, as it really is a public domain issue. once its outdoors, its public. Perhaps not the most rightous discussion for me to be having, but that’s life in the 21st century
However, if you equate avodah zara (see, no probelm with that) and the topic you mentoined (no, I still won’t spell it out) than either I’ve been in BP too long, or you’ve beenin NNJ too long.
Either way, to get back on topic, the real reason we seem to go off the deep end on issues like this is because its less about halachah and more about personal choice in how to apply halachah. And once it gets personal, it gets heated.
You are right, that is an issue which ultimatly affects women as well. But that does not mean men and women (outside of husband and wife) need to discuss it. Truth is, I find it somewhat strange that Rabbonim should be the ones to discuss the particlars of tznius with women and girls. It should either come from a rebbetzin, or if it needs to be said by a rov, it should be directed to the father / husband and have them relay it to the women in thier lives.
Some topics simply do not cross the gender lines in our community. I can voice my opinion, but to engage another women in a debate of what should and should not be exposed in the street? That’s out of bounds in my book.
As for tax-evasion (or tuition evasion) that’s a pretty neutral topic, so I’m ok with that in a public setting. Tznius is a toss-up. But? (sorry, I can’t even bring myself to spell it out), that is off the charts.
SJS –
The differnce between the tznius issue and the example you picked (which, by the way, is most unbecoming of a CR member) is that tznuis, may be a private issue, but it is largly practiced in public, so I do have the right to my opinion as your choices have a direct impact on me / my family.
The example you chose is presumably done in private and really is not open for discussion.
But, really, that’s the example you use to illustrate a point? Got news for you.. its not just married folks here in the CR. Please reconsider next time.
On the topic of sharing psak halacha / what their rav holds –
This gets a bit problematic, as there tends to be an attitude of “if I google it, I’m sure to find a heter”.
That’s a problem, because it undermines the concept of hadracha, and that is what keeps us the Am Hanivchar. True, Sfardim eat corn on Pesach, and YI folks daven at 48 minutes after shkyia, and to some extent, whether I do A or B, I’m still within the confines of halacha. But boy, am I getting onto a slippery slope, one that is sure to have bad consequences for me and my families religous future.
Opinions are nice to argue on things like politics or sports (which I know zero about either). But halacha? OK, I’ll leave it at this: we can “argue” halacha, but in the end, there can be no winner or loser, because I’m still bound to my hadracha, and you’re still bound to yours.
Fair?
Oh, now I get it. Still, I think my post does answer the question in a way. Let me restate:
I think the “defense mechanism” (work on yourself, ect) gets brought up, its because I really cannot argue with you on “halacha” per se, as “halach” has very clearly defined terms. Lets use matzoh as an example. No one in the world will say that a matzoh baked in 19 minutes is kosher. But lots of people will say that cholov stam is ok. Is that halacha? I can “prove” my position as decisivly as you can yours.
Same with the tznius thread. “Halacha” says sleeves below the elbow and you are good to go. But take a walk down the avenue (makes no diffence which one) and this is what you’ll see:
Below the elbow shell, under a scoop neck t-shirt, that I cannot describe in a yeshivaworld post. Is that tznius? You decide. Is that halacha? I would have to say yes, as its below the elbow. But is it tznius? You decide. Till then, we resort to name calling… because the “halacha” is too hard to define, and even harder to inforce.
My kids school does not have a printed dress code. They have an honor code. If you want to be here, please be a part of the team. If you don’t want to be a part of the team, why are you here?
This way, the “halacha” is self enforced. On the outside world, each of us have our own standard, and our own version of interpretation. If my take is different than yours, put up your dukes and lets fight it out!
OK, maybe that’s too dramatic. But you get the idea. If its cut and dry (like a 19 minute matzoh) there is nothing to argue about. But the variables? I could go on for days.
the OP?
When I travel, the name I trust is Chabad. And yes, some of the people in the minyan are not yet frum, and some of the women are not dressed the way we do so in BP.
But out of town, like middle of the country out of town? If a shaliach is OK with this set up 52 weeks a year. it works for me too.
YI works too, but when I travel, it usually for work and I’m FAR away from a community that can support a YI.
So in a word, Chabad. And that goes for the food establishments in the town as well. If the shaliach feeds it to his family, thats all I need to hear.
Because for the most part, threads do not discuss “halacha” in its black and white form. What we pick apart is the interpretation of halacha, or minhag (which we mistake for halacha).
As you may or may not know BP has an eruv war (Not going to say which side I’m on), with each side having serious moreh horoahs backing the pro and con team. Who is right? Depends on how you interpret the halacha. Team Pro will “prove” that the eruv is A-OK; Team Con will “prove” their position with just as much conviction. And believe me when I tell you, both sides have Rabbonim with real credentials.
So.. who is right? That’s a personal choice of which Rov you follow. And once we start to get personal, the fur starts flying!
I picked the eruv, but the same applies to every “hot button” topic, like the tznius thread that was running strong earlier today
The problem with that is, my rov understands my / my familys hashkofoh needs, he is not up to date on secular education, which my boys also need.
Plus the fact that today’s kids attitues / outlooks are a blend of both parents, both sets of grandparents, numberous rebbeim, camp, ect.
My Rov’s outlook represents just one of the many influneces my boys are exposed to, so to say, “we’ll go with this choice” just because the Rebbe / Rov said so, takes more than we can muster.
That said, when it came down to 2 choices (after having done our homework) the Rebbe (not the Rov) made the decision. Both had its merits, but only one could be the winner.. and he picked it.
So I guess that the answer is, we rely on the Rebbe’s / Rov’s judgement when its not cut and dry, but for the most part choices are arrived at, based on the decision-making skills we (me, Mrs, kids) have developed as a result of listenoing / watching how the gedolim in our lives reached conclusins on similar situation.
Not an exact science, but it works for us
From the surrounding facts, it seems very unlikely that this was a robbery for $ and the thief had a change of heart. Family squabble seems to be the most plauseable story. While it may or may not be loshon horah, anyone that would touch a sefer torah in order to prove a point has to have their head (and soul) examined.
I’m certain that the person reaching into the Aron Kodesh truly believed what he was doing was purely lishmah, but most combatants feel that way. And if it were a money motivated robbery, that’s even more disheartening. I doubt the person who carried them out was a nochri, so the mindset of such a person makes you wonder what they could have been thinking.
Either way, a sad story, despite its happy ending.
My Apologies to SJS –
Sorry for the mean, condesending tone of my last remark (BP schools are better than NNJ schools). We (when I say we, I mean all parents) are in the same boat when it comes to getting taken for a ride by the tuition situation, and my wisecrack was uncalled for.
Its too early in the day for me to read if you responded, so just in case you did, I deserved to be put in place. Sorry!
Sorry Cherry I missed this last reply (seeing as how the tuition thread has been priority #1 for the last few days)
You are right, my Rov would LOVE to help me and everyone that walks thru his door. But would it be fair of me to ask him to speak on my behalf to a vaad member that will not listen (or worse, be mevazeh) to him?
Sad to say, but that’s what happens sometimes. So to protect his kovod, I would not even ask him to stick his neck out. Unfortunatly, the shul / rebbe I’m aligned with does not have a school that is suitable for my boys, so I had no choice but to go out of the box and deal with the vaad on my own. Luckily, I passed. Not sure what i would have done if I failed. (I guess I would go with school B, but fortunalty it didn’t come to that.
One thing is clear though; from your comment, its pretty much a sure bet you have a terrific realationship with your rov / rebbe and are machshiv torah authority in general. Lucky for us your a CR member to boot!
I can’t believe I missed this thread 10 months ago (unless I was not a CR addict yet), but my wife tells me this is probably going to happen one day (and she will shoot me when it does!)
Truth is, if any of my “real world” hockers were to read my posts, they would spot me in a flash, as the ideas / writing style is what they hear / get e-mails from me all the time.
Biggest fear? My future mechutonim (or worse, future D-I-Ls!) are CR members and will “out” me right at the l’chaim!
Uh oh, there goes my negotiating tactics!
Puppydog – While you took the time to do the math and came up with 15%, the school board most likey just picked a random number they felt (hoped?) you would just swallow. Fight it, you can probably get them to accept 5% this year, and another 5% the years after that. And don’t accept the cutbacks. But answer this question to yourself before calling; is your tuition in line with the 5% / 15% cap I’ve been hocking about?
Oh and just so we are all on the same page; 5% is based on your “adjusted” net income (how many kids, ect) but that’s a thread in itself, so I don’t want to go off to that topic here.
Bottom line: are you paying you fair share? If so, you can and probably will sway them. If not, well, perhaps you might reconsider upping the ante to be in line with they truly can expect for someone like yourself. Again, this is not something we need to know, but something that you should (the answer might surprise you).
FYI – I once had this discussion with my shul buddies (how much is the right ammount to spend in shul) and by my own math, I was short a few hundred $, so within a short while, I made up the difference. Math is funny that way.. it doesn’t play favorites!
Since I don’t commute, I can’t say for sure, but I doubt its more than 90 minutes to NYC in the morning, probably a bit less on the way home (assuming you don’t leave the city at 5:00). I know several people that do commute, and aside from the occasional mis-hap, no one is talking 2.5 hour rides (for that, I could live in the could live in the mtns all year).
Obviously, you can’t just up and move. But you (presumibly) knew the cost of living in Teaneck before settling down, and tuition is part of that COL.
The differnence between losing your stock value as oppposed to losing your home value is this: If your stock goes to nil, its a paper loss. If your home goes the same way and gets forclosed your’re out on the sidwalk or forced to move in with your kids (not sure which I would dread more, if C’V I ever came to that).
As far as cost caps (both tuition, staff salary, school spending) if some sort of equitable formula was in place, everyone would benefit. That’s what analysis is all about. It helps you plan for the future. And yes, if a rebbie (or teacher) knew their salary was going to be a) capped and b) based on performance (a lot like mine is) he / she would plan accordingly. I do this, why should’nt they?
But one funny idea did come to mind yesterday on the way home; if the “better education” the NNJ schools promote fiscal irresponsibility (using home equity to fund tuition!) and highly educated (and most likely college educated) parents are not saving at least 10% of their income, than how are those kids (and at the costly tuition) any better off than their BP or Lakewood bare-bones tuition counterparts?
Makes you wonder….
I can’t comment on the tuition bill in teaneck, but I highly doubt anyone is paying that in Lakewood. And guess what? For what you pay in Teaneck for a modest home, you can get a palace in Lakewood (ok, the commute will be longer), but you will save a bundle in tution (Gosh, for even $30g I would be a hero in my school)
And messing with the equity in your house is nuts, plain and simple. Its the untouchable. Its what most folks retire on, and seeing as how life expectancy is getting longer and longer, that money will need to be there for you. Bottom line: put a reasonable cap on tuition. If everyone paid a fair share (and by everyone I mean teachers / rebbeim too) there would be almost enought $ to support the yeshiva system. Would we need to fund raise? Sure. Would schools need to reign in their spending? Sure.
That’s what we call fiscal responsibility.
Big difference, SJS, between tuition (which is not a option) and the size of your mortgage (which you chose to undertake, based on the cost of your house)
To draw $ from your home for anything other than renovating that same home is suicide. It means that eventualy your home (in most cases the BIGGEST asset a person has) will be worth less than they paid for it. That’s what they refer to on the news as the “mortgage crisis”
By the way, did you show your cousin the data I guessed at? I’d be curious to see what he thinks. And while you’re at it, ask him if he thinks his school budget would be better or worse off if he collected the 5% I suggested.
As far as the gap in kids between Lakewood and NNJ, that is not a topic I feel comfortable discussing. (needless to say, I have an opnion, but one that is best kept to myself)
As far as the quality of life in NNJ and Rockland Co, just compare the cars, clothing, vacations (summer, winter and Pesach), ect and judge for yourself. Sure, BP (and most likely Lakewood) have there fancy parts, but for the most part, its hardscrabble and hard knocks)
Enlightend –
You are correct, in as much as you can’t commit to a Harvard education if you cannot afford it. And while Harvard (or the yeshiva equivalent) may not be negotiable, the 2nd tier schools (which by the way, are very good, just not as “bells and whistles” top heavy) will work with you.
Now, to be fair to the schools, if you choose to live in NNJ or the fancy parts of Monsey, and pay dearly for the glam lifestyle you should be prepared to pay for the luxury of a top $chool as well (no, that was not a type-o).
That’s why my opening remark was 5% of your salary should be your target tuition. That’s reasonable and that’s what I aim for and the schools (so far, at least) go along with me. (Hope I do as well with BMG!)
Save $2-300 per month? And he feels this is being responsible? What emergency could be handled on $300? In the NNJ community, $300 is gas money for one car!
And the school has him making deternimations of a financial matter? And I thought the BP tuition boards were underqualified.
I know very little about NNJ, but I do know a thing or two about money. And rule # 1 is, a head of household needs 6 months of the annual budget in the bank, ready cash. Not stocks, not equity in the home; liquid m-o-n-e-y.
That would mean if you make (and presumibly spend 80% of) $250k, you would need to have close to $30k in the bank at at all times. How in the world do they expect that at $300 per month?
(Did they really suggest to someone to draw against their house!? PLease tell me that was a joke)
I (being the wonderful son that I am) picked up both my father and mother from home, took them (and my Mrs) to dinner last night and drove them home afterwards.
Surprised? Don’t be. It was a shul dinner, and I would have done the same thing on a Tuesday. Get the point? EVERY day is mothers / fathers day and we Yidden wrote the book (ok, received the Book) on how to treat parents.
Hallmark and FTD say that yeterday was special, but they are not talking to us. If anything, they are talking ABOUT us (meaning: look at the Yidden and you’ll see how to treat parents)
SJS –
I forgot one point. The bungalow is a much cheaper option than summer camp (day, and certainly sleepaway) if you can get the summer off. Only the very wealthy (or very frugal) can afford both at the same time.
Many bumgalow goers I know take along a teen-age niece or sister as a mother’s helper for the summer and mom commutes to the city for 2-3 days a week. That way kids are in the mountains, the teen girl in too (without paying for camp) and the weekends are free. Welcome to life in the double income world with older kids at home. Is it a necessity? We say yes, and we pay dearly for it.
Cherry –
Does that mean I won’t see you there? (kidding!)
Living in BP as I do, I’ve got access to the best the world of Rebbes and Chasiddus has to offer, so plane rides are not on my must have list. Besides, drop into any Bresslover shteeble, and you’ll see that R’ Nachman is alive and well in the here and now. I davened maariv there one night and sefira was a 10 minute avoidah. And these folks were not putting on a show, they meant it for real.
Back to the business at hand –
SJS –
I thought at the $100k level, the family gets healthcare from their job. And anyone with the green light for applying all their maaser $ towards tuition, SHOULD. Its as worthy as any cause out there. As far as busing a 4 year old ( a 4 year old! oh, do I miss those days!) you are right; that’s nuts. But Teaneck (or Monsey) is a lot prettier than Bklyn, and it comes at a cost. 60K.. ouch!
Bottom line: good education doesn’t cost.. it pays!
Look at the bright side. People undertake a 20-25 year mortgage and all they have to show for it is a house that may or may not be worth what they paid. A well educated child is a 12-15 year mortgage, and it pays dividends for life and for generations!
If it any consolation, I’m in the same boat, but I’m almost at the phasing out stage, so I can tell you from experience (gee, I sound old!) it was (and is) worth every penny.
Item Cost / Month
Rent $ 1,200
Rebbie $ 4,200
Food ($3 / day) $ 1,500
Teachers $ 1,200
Support Staff $ 1,000
Administration $ 800
In the school my boys go / went to, many of the parents could not pay even close to $4000, so asking $4.5k – $5k as a base tuition is not only a reasonable request, its probably the only way they can keep the doors open. The gap (which there must surely be) gets raised on the outside.
Your numbers were pretty much in sync with what I had in mind, with a few minor adjustments:
salary $ 150,000
after tax $ 112,500
max tuition $ 16,875
maaser $ 8,500
transp. $ 7,200
food $ 17,000
rent $ 30,000
clothing $ 2,000
utilitis $ 10,000
med $ 1,500
misc $ 5,000
total expenses $ 98,075
balance $ 14,425
5) The daycare cost vs being a stay-at-home mom is a situation that I was never in, so its unfair for me to comment on it. But in the end, its probably a wash, so either way the numbers are unchanged.
With careful budgeting, the $150k family can just make it thru the summer as well. Not each kid to sleepaway, or Bungalow plus sleepaway, but they can make it (I do, and on a lot less than $150k)
The things you list are not necessities; schooling is, so we (the rich) need to help the not so rich afford the necessities. A new shaitel is not a necessity. (Though I might be on the same page with you when it comes to Uman J)
At the end of the day, when all is said an done, lets remember this: Hashem gives some of us greater resources, and He expects us to help out those who (for whatever reason) were given less. I for one, am very happy to be in the 1st group!
Cherry –
The problem is, while my Rov / Rebbe is the person whom I and my famlily turn to for life’s complicated choices, he has very little impact on the person on the vaad, if that person is not from my kehilla.
Skinnymum –
For the most part, no one stays home beacuse no school will take them. True, the school that says yes may not be 1st choice, but in the end, you and your child and succeed in the school that you do settle on. Much like a shidduch, it may not meet every criteria, but as long as its in the ballpark, you can make a good go of it. And like a shiduch, sometimes they get derailed becuase of a meddling outsider. But that does not mean the game is over; it just means you go to plan B and make it as good as(if not better than) plan A. That’s where syata d’shmaya comes into the picture.
Woah, what an avalanche I started! OK, let me digest this overnight and reply tomorow.
Funny this topic should appear today, as just this morning I was thinking about how we refer to a song as one the “XYZ” <insert the singer of your choice> sings, yet the “song” is from tehilim or gemoroh.
The one in particular I had in mind was “Omar R’ Akiva, ashrechem, ect”. Now, if asked “who sings that song” I would reflexively (and wrongfully) respond, “its XYZ”, when in reality it was R’ Akiva.
But when you think about it, the point the original writer / speaker / composer had in mind was to relay a message (faith, simcah, ect). So does it really make a differnce if the message is relayed in a vehicle that has been adapted to today’s audience? Ok, I would never suggest this to be the case for kriyas hatorah, where mesorah must stay unchanged. But perhaps the “tune” with which select mizmorim are conveyed, need not be in one particular type.
A good example is the middle part of the to’chacha. True, its a fearful piece and one that needs to be heard as a dire warning. But one singer (a pair actualy) set those words to a soulful tune. So which was the “real” way the words were said? Was it fire and brimstone? Or was is said to the tune of trop? Or did it switch in middle from dire to supportive / reasuring and then back to dire?
I think the answer is yes to all the above. If the intent was to convey a message, the message (in some circumstances) needs to be modified so that it reaches the listener with the biggest impact.
(I hope this is still considered on topic!)
The sad fact is, it really does cost more to educate a child than the school charges. Rent, salaries, and food will eat up most of the tuition dollars they take in.
How about this as a guide; 5% of your salary per child, with a maximum of 15% of your salary, regardless of how many kids you have in school.
That way the folks making a ton of money would help offset the working class and everyone feels like a mentch. Not some arbitrary number from the tuition board, a fixed ammount, much like maaser.
And no, I’m not opening a school. The idea of a 6 day work week gives me goosebumps!
Thanks, Ain Ohd –
So far I’m at a good number, but I’ll keep your suggestion handy, if the numbers creep up
Anon Mrs –
But theory goes out the window when the board has to rubber-stamp an application from a child that is really not going to cooperate (rampant chutzpha, for which he was kicked out of the previous school) or abide by school rules (school says no logo polo shirts in 7 grade, and the applicant shows up the interview in a Tommy Hilfiger polo), yet the Vaad gets a call from the top donor, because the applicant is in the same shul / summer resort (I would call in a bungalow colony, but folks with that much clout hardly live in what you would call a bungalow).
Wolf and Skinnym are right:
I’ll 2nd Wolf’s comment. Why would you want to go to a school that turned you down?
While I was never on a Vaad, a friend of mine was. And 2 other friends were trying to get into the school friend A was a Vaad memeber.
Both B and C had great kids, but the reason they got turned down was the HS the mothers went to (no, I’m not kidding)
In the end, both kids went to different schools (and are doing quite nicely, I might add). And the Vaad friend? He dropped off the board because he could not stomach the hypocracy (people that were truly not suitable for the school got waved in because of pull)
And we wonder why today’s kids have such an attitude problem.
I’m more concerned that my Shvigger figure out who BP totty is! (Uh oh, here comes a barrage of nasty e-mails from all the shivggers in the CR)
my cholesterol was border line high (and some check-ups, just over the red line) and my Dr. wanted to prescribe a pill. I was BH able to lower it with diet / excercise, but the Dr. says that (as noted above) its probably going to outrun me and a pill is inevitable. And my diet is textbook clean, so it really is (in some cases) genetic.
Eli –
Tell your friend there are some painless changes that canbe made to an already good diet that may help:
Whole wheat instead of rye or white
Cereal or oatmeal for breakfast, instead of a bagel w/ butter
2% milk instead of the whole stuff (in BP that’s the blue cap instead of the red)
Lite mayo instead of the regular kind
I could go on, but the point I’m trying to make is, there are lots of ways to tailor your diet without having to starve yourself.
And of course, excercise is a MUST (it could even be walking, but something needs to be in the schedule)
This did not happen to me, but the story is so classic, I felt it imperative to share with those of us that did not read or hear it yet. Its a phone exchange between a grandchild and the Babby:
GC: Babby, I can’t wait till you visit us again!
Babby: Why is that,zeeskeit?
GC: Because Tatty said he’ll show us a new trick!
Babby: Oh, really? What kind of trick?
GC: I’m not sure, but all he said was, “if Babby comes to stay with us again. I’ll flip!”
I cannot believe I’m posting to this thread (Ok, I’m a yenta!)
But seriously, this thread was started 5 months ago, right around the last time the freezer opened. Don’t tell me Ms. Stranded / her mother are still putting her hopes on a A++ / Best bochur from BMG?
Know what? I’ll bet Mr. Tire Changer is long off the market. (but that’s only because I was rooting for him all along!)
I agree with Wolf. If vouchers for working (paying) parents ever kick in the school will say, “oh, the X thousand $ you’ve been paying till now was really X thousand below what it really costs us, but we could’nt ask you for any more. The X we are getting now is going to cover the X thousands you owe us for the last X years.”
Not sure how the schools handle the folks getting the poverty vouchers, but someone who is currently paying $ each month? Get a tution break? Never gonna happen.
Lunchtime mostly, and sometimes in the 5pm – 6pm range. But only M-F (no web access at home.. otherwise, I’d be here all day!)
PBC –
From your screen name and writing, your gender was not 100% obvoius. And I said the comment was directed to myself as well. In fact, in many ways, people in my age bracket need to be reminded of this even more, because we have more contact with people in the workplace, neighborhood, ect. That is why non-regulated chat rooms are such a danger. The CR, with its Mods, keep things under control.
Nothing personal, I assure you!
I scrolled back a few pages to see what else people miss from their “fress-fest” and saw Hafiagirls post.
As a FFB, I hang my head in shame and stand in awe of people like her and Oomis1005’s husband (and any other BTs out there).
Haggendazz ice cream? That’s all I’m missing? They walked away from an entire lifestyle and plunged into very challenging one (one, I might add, we FFBs take for granted) and for them to see such petty whining from people like me about how much they miss pop-ems?
Sorry. I stand properly chastized.
Enternmans chocolate pop-ems, hershey’s chocolate, nestles chrunch and Haggendaz ice cream.
True, my “wish list” items have an OU (or at least they did back in the days), but they are not cholov yisroel, so I’ve gone without for more years than I can count!
Should they have a say in BMG politics? Sure!
Should they have a say in Lakewood politics? Only the tax paying BMGers. But should the senior folks be able to get the 5000+ learning boys out to the polls to swing something in one direction or another? Well, that’s what the Al Sharptons of the world to, and we know how much we appreciate that.
PBC –
A word of caution. From what you say about your friends questions and answers, you really need to have a rov / rebbetzin / madreches (or whatever the female term is) to make sure you are not adversly affected by this friendship. One of the phrases I like to repeat is “da mah shetoshiv l’apikores” (know what to answer the non-believer)
It does not mean you need to answer each question, and in fact some questions do not deserve a response. WE need to know what the answers are (and sometimes the answer is “just because”), but not necessarily engage someone in a debate.
2nd – This is not directed at you, per se, but to me as well. Kiruv for the average person MUST BE GENDER BASED. Which means, if you are newly minted seminary graduate, focus on the women in your influence circle. Leave the men to the BMG boys (and vice versa). Discussions like this (emunah, schar v’oinesh, ect) can lead to a deep relationship, one that is loaded with dangerous side-effects if the pair is not from the same side of the mechitza.
At any rate, keep up the good work and keep striving for answers.
PBC –
The “racism” charge is easily deflected by the simple fact that Jews come from all ethnic backgrounds! I look distinctly eastern european, while my Syrian friends look downright Italian. And Yemenite Yidden look arabic.
What makes us unique is our commitment to mesorah and halacha. Again, all these questions and doubts are (at least to me) indicitive of someone who is searching for answers. I have zero interest in pro sports, so I will not engage someone in a debate about who is a better team, player, stats, ect.
But I am highly intrested in 5 other topics and will discuss / debate them at lenght when given the opportunity.
When all is said and done, the one who stands the most to gain from all these questions is YOU. Beausae you will do the research, you will gain the insights needed to fully explain your position, and you will have a better grasp of avodas hashem than you did when you started the process.
One final note: There is a story (not sure who, but I beleive it was someone who went on to becoming one of our gedolim of the late 1800s) of a young rov who decided to try and make the world a better place. After a few days, he saw that the world is too much to undertake right away, so he lowered his sights, and decided to work on his country instead. A few days later, he realized that this was still too large a project to handle, so he scaled back to working on his city alone.
And on down the line, his neighbood, his shul, his family, until he finally decided to be content on working on improving himself.
And you know what? As soon as he improved himself, his family improved, his shul improved, his neighborhood, his city and finally the whole world started to look better.
OK, maybe that’s something that only gedolim can accomplish. But you get the idea. Do you best and you will see / generate results!
Volvie’s point exactly.. if she’s afraid of Gehenom, its because she believes. She just want’s to believe out of Ahavas Hashem, instead of Yiras Haonesh.
PCB – you have your work cut out for you! Ask for help, read lots of books for ideas on how to approach the subject (R’ Kaplan’s anthologies are a very good source) and with a healthy dose of syata dishmaya, you’ll do fine. If you know the product you are trying to sell, people will buy it!
PBC –
What I meant by “THE place” is that, properly observed, Yidishket and Emunas Hashem have proven to be a very good and wholesome way of life. Yes, there are rules and restrictions, and yes, sometimes its a challenge, but in the long run, it pays to be part of the klal.
The problem your friend may have is that all she saw growing up is the “burden” of being frum, and not enough of the joy. Is Shabbos a good thing? It depends how you look at it. If as a kid you hear “we can’t work on Saturday, and my competetion is going to steal all my customers” then Shabbos is a bad thing.
If you hear “Shabbos is a time for us to put our daily routine on hold and reconnect with Hashem” then Shabbos is the greatest gift.
The same can be said for all mitzvos (do’s and don’ts). If you look at them as a burden, then being frum is a killer. If you look at them as membership rules to a prestigious club, (one which you want to join because of all the benefits that come with membership)then mitzvos become something you look forward to.
So, Yiddishkeit is THE place to be! (and for those lamdonim out there, I just relazied a great unintended choice of expression. One of Hashem’s names is Hamokom (THE Place!)
I’m with Volvie. If she’s asking, she beleives. Just keep the focus on why Yiddishkeit is THE place to be, and it will make an impression on her.
A while ago, my family was struck with this unweclome visitor, and it shook us all to the core. What gave me chizuk was a comment a friend made to me.
He said that all Hashem wants is our tefilos. But He wants sincere tefilos. But people being people tend to slide into a rut, and our tefilos get stale. So He sends us a reminder, to wake us up.
Know that the same way the problem appeared, it can disappear! Never give up hope!
90% of the things me and my family wear do not have a name or logo showing. But in all fairness to my kids, if I send them to a yeshiva / camp where the other kids (and sometimes staff) wear brand names, I feel its only right to buy them at least a few items with the popular names. OK, maybe Ferregamo and Hermes is a bit over the top, but Gap and Tommy is within thier rights to expect a piece or two. And if you shop smart, you can often get the brand names for $5-10 more than the no-names, and they do fit / wear better. Besides, my kids self-esteem is worth the extra $5.