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Since my shul is somewhat of a minyan factory, this is a daily occurence. I try to daven at the early minyonim, as the “shuklers” and “top-of-their-lung” people tend to daven a bit later.
But to tell someone to tone it down? No, that I wouldn’t do. They mean it sincerly, and the truth is, we really SHOULD be davening like we’re on fire, so I think you did the right thing by not saying anything
Post sem girl, I have a question. What is really the attitude of returning sem grads (from the schools you noted) with regards to a boy who is 23, will have a steady shiur each day, but will go to work 3 months prior to the arrival of the first child? And by work, I mean something that would entail a decent post-HS education (yes, the C word), so that mom could work part time, or just not work at all.
No, I’m not talking about a thugged out crackhead HS dropout who has been on the streets since he is 17. I mean a true ben torah, just like his father (and presumibly his father-in-law) only 20-30 years younger.
Does he stand a chance of getting redt to a sem girl from the schools you described?
Dvorak –
I read about that test too, but it was with CC cookies. It seemed to suggest that the kids who grew up in a trusting, honest environment were able to wait and see what happens. The ones that grew up where lying and cheating is the order of the day, ate the cookie on the spot.
I’m with philosopher and SM 29.
While my kids don’t have a pony or a jetski, I try to give them as much as I can, even though I did not have those same things as a kid. Today’s world is much more competitive and if I’m not their best friend, someone else will be. And that is a chance I cannot afford to take.
By and large, my kids are good kids, and the way I look at it is, its cheaper than therapy or paying the school a premium for keeping my juvenile delinquent under wraps.
So, yes, in a sense.. I do spoil my kids.
Oh, I forgot one minor detail. The area in which I give my kids all they ask for is the most precious, valuable asset I have. Its called time and attention. (the pony? They can wait till their blue in the face..es vet gurnisht helfin!)
Ok, bananna boating might be too extreme. But the trails at Hunter / Tannersville are of various levels of difficulty, so as long as you are talking toddler as is 18 months and up, you should be fine. They most likley also have bike rentals with those buggy hitches that you can take on tame trails (once upon a time, I travelled with toddlers too 🙂
Thanks, Sister bear.
I heard the story somewhat different, though. At the end of the father telling the story, he says “my son will never be mainstream. He will never be a regular kid. And I often wonder, what is his tachlis in life? And now I know the answer; he was sent here to give the 18 boys on the baseball field a chance to grow… and chance to do the right thing.
Either way, a great story, and a great lesson.
Seriously, nobody can help me?!?
You are right; there should have been more responses. Its just that there have been several “where to go on vacation / bein hazmaninm” threads this season that were extensively posted to, so I figured you could get all the info you need there.
What I find most amazing is I thought that animals can only do tricks they are taught be trainers that drill it into them by unending repetition (like an elephant standing on its front legs), as opposed to things they can do instinctivly from birth (like a spider spinning a web).
From this clip, it seems that animals can learn things that do not come natural to them, which would imply intellegence. So if animals can go beyond what was previously thought to be their natural limitation, it seems reasonable to think that we humans are capable of things we currently believe to be beyond our grasp.
Perhaps this is what the Novi (Chavakuk) meant when he said ” For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Hashem, as the waters cover the sea” meaning far beyond what we think we know now.
Its a bit fuzzy, but I think there’s some glimmer of sense to what I’m getting at. Anyone see / share my point?
For a change, I’d like to see my skeptisism proved wrong. Let the Goiel Tzedek come ASAP, and I’ll be a happy camper.
Kitty –
There were 2 listings in the paper today:
tannersvillevacation.com
Moshe 917-677-4653
and
springwellmanor.net
845-425-1996
I’ve never been to either place, but the draw in Tannersville is the outdoors.. not the indoors, so I would expect very rustic, very heimish
it’s just as likely that the poster is simply pretending or lying…
as a matter of fact that is what you and the other posters seemed to be implying when you happily thought you caught her redhanded
Mod 80 –
Do we CR members post here because we have nothing better to do? Some do. Some come here to see what the buzz is, and what the general hock is. Some post because they have the chance to voice / hear opinions that they would otherwise not take part of. But no one appreciates being misled. True, the CR (and on-line in general) is an opaque world, but since this is the YWN, we expect (and hold ourselves) to higher standards. In the case of RR, there was no harm intended, so all is good. And the fact that so many members took notice of the irregularities indicates how much we value the honesty of our virtual community.
I really think its time the CR open its own shidduch venue. And it could be done with ease; if I’m looking for a girl with xyz values, and one of the members has such values (as evident from their posts) I would contact the Moderators and ask them to pass them my real world contact information. Then, if from what they see from my posts, they agree that a tachlis conversation is in order, we move to step 2.
Vastly different from standard on-line venues, as in the CR subjects of all sorts have been discussed, so you get to see what makes a person tick before they are putting up a smokescreen. And $3000? Please, thats disgusting. We could do our own legwork and pay the Mods a flat fee of (well, not sure what that number should be, but I’m certain we could discuss that on another thread:)
BBYG –
Other than the rules that the Moderators enforce, the only thing I ask is that you take the time to use Caps where they belong, puntuation marks as needed, and PLEASE avoid using text shorthands (4 is spelled for, 2 is spelled to, and wkrs is works).
I know, its the accepted rule in text land, but humor us “old timers”
And “hey” is only one step away from “yo”, and not becoming of a CR member.. (but that’s just me as a parent speaking)
To all those who have been folloing this thread, there is an interesting, relevant development on the thread called “what to do bein hazemanim”
But on the subject, isn’t it odd that little sis (who presumably is in her late teens / early 20s) has on-line access, but is not sure what to talk about on a date? And would momma / poppa be ok if the bocher in question was also an on-line dweller?
This is what I meant when I said that todays girls are more savvy than her male counterpart, which is why, under the microscope of a beshow setting, and one that is limited to 2 hours, 2-3 meetings max, there is NO WAY you can determine what each side is really about. The Beshow concept worked fine in the old days, but now we need to fine tune it, because the boys and girls of today are not the same as they once were.
RRYR –
What you fail to realize is that the CR after a while takes a form of a community, and its very disturbing for a someone in the community to present themselves as someone they are not. So, by all means, pick a name of your own and join the fun.
That said, the only thing I can think of is Mt. Washington. It borders Maine and in Bridgeton, Maine, there is Camp Hamachene, there is access to minyan and I think they might even have food / over shabbos accomodations.
And please, if you don’t want you’re own member name and want to use someone elses log in, at least say in the opening line, you’re a guest
I’m not in that stage yet, but what I try to do is explain to my kids how I / Mrs arrive at decisions, so they at least see what goes in to making a choice.
But I can only imagine how I’ll struggle with not butting in to their lives.
WOW RRYR –
Just last week, you were going on your first date (what to talk on the beshow thread) and now you’re off to vacation with hubby and child?
I would have applied myself harder in the area of gemorrah. I’m in awe of folks that can plug away on a sugya for hours, while my attention wanders half way thru the daf.
I did not see a post from Cookie7. The 2 posts I meant were one from 4 days ago and one from 1 day ago. If we’re in different time zones, the days might display differntly, but either way, I figured you (or whoever made the post) had a change of heart becuase RR had already gone out, was happy with the progress, so there was no point in staying skeptical.
Just before the weekend, Philosopher made a valid point, that “go out daters” suffer from the surprise factor, just as much as “beshow” couples.
While that may be true, there is a vast difference. In the “go out date” system, the decision to get engaged is one that is arrived at after time spent (no, Kliobear, its not the same as time served 🙂 so the decision is YOURS. If there are bumps along the road, you have an incentive to work hard to get things back on track. Of course, you’re not in a vacume, and you can ask for help / advise from your parents / rov / mentor / cr, whatever.
But in a beshow setting, its essentially a done deal from the minute you walk thru the door, so if things aren’t rosy you freeze because you have nothing invested. And don’t tell me not so, because the timeline from entering shidduchim for the chassidishe oilam is too short to be anything but.
I should also point out (even though I think its pretty clear from my other posts) that my real beef is with the bochurim. The girls (both chassidish and litvsh) are head and shoulders above their male counterparts, when the age range is 19-21. So clearly, its the boys who need to step up to the plate, and until then, the girls are at the mercy of a system that needs to be updated (no pun intended)
And I have BOYS, so I’m not biased; I’m just being honest.
Lastly, to the posters who think I’m speaking from bitterness,and (even funnier was) the suggestion that I was raised in a restricive home let me assure you;
A) While I have some chassidishe flavor, I’m anything but a chusid and
B) In my childhood days, we had a TV, ate cholov stam, when to movies, ect. (Not that this has any bearing on the shidduch scene we’re discussing now.. I just thought it was a funny assesment of me. )
Oh. I missed RR’s 2nd post.
Smart cookie –
I’m a bit confused. In today’s post, you’re all enthusiastic about RRs upcoming date (as are all of us, RR.. hope it went well!)
But back to you, cookie. In your post made before the weekend, you seemed to be skeptical. What gives?
I would go to Tannersville. There, you’ll have minyan and food, and Hunter Mountain has tons of stuff to do, for all levels of interest and fitness. If I rember corretcly, you can even take a cable car to the top to the mountain, and bike downhill.
There is also tubing down the Esophus, out of Phonecia, NY (the place is called Town Tinker).
This can all be done for around $300 (assuming you’re sharing a room with a few friends)
Don’t be proud of me… be proud of the family member of yours that is willing to do something about their health (Ok, I’m not so comfortable with the surgery route, but that my opinion)
You have a good idea, though. A thread about weight / health managment would do the oilam some good.. if nothing else, just to compare notes with the others. I’ll work on it over the weekend.
Has everyone heard the “P’tach student / Parent at the baseball game” story? Another classic, so if anyone has not heard it, please say so, and I’ll post it
What city are you in? What’s your budget? Day trips? Road trips?
Tons of stuff to do, so narrow it down somewhat.
Fabreng Inn is in Richmond, VA. Not sure if that closer to your route, but its the only place that comes to mind
(and thanks for the clarification… I could not imagine how you could have trouble finding a minyan in Willy, Blkyn:)
RRYR –
That’s easy.. pick a few topics from the CR, and go with that!
Bullseye!
See, its not a problem if both chosson and kallah were raised under the same conditions. But by and large, the girls have a broader scope, and the boys do not. With her newfound freedom of movement and resourses (like the internet) the social gap between the two of them is only amplified.
So does the beshow work? Of course it does. But only because there is such little demanded from the boys.
Not that our circles are without our shortcomings. In our circles the girls are more accomplished from a career standpoint than the boys are in the same age range. To offset the imbalance, the 24 year old boy only feels comfortable with girls 4-5 years his junior. But thats a whole other thread.
What irks me is we have allowed a system that may have worked fine up until now, but is in need of some fine tuning. Not an overhaul, just a little tune-up.
Cookie and says who –
I’m going on what I see in shul and the neighborhood. You have truly dynamic girls (GO presidents, camp counslors, ect) marry plain vanilla bochurim. Will the boys ramp up at some point? Maybe. But from the 30 or so couples we have produced in the shul / neighborhood so far the girls are still bubbly lively girls, and the husbands are completly at a loss on how to function out of shul / learning. (Going to the grocery / dropping off the kid at the babysitter does not count as getting out into the world)
The Beshow is a great tool, but only one of the players are really ready for what lies ahead. Know how many chassidishe girls / women go shopping in Manhattan? Or read library books Loads. No how many boys /men do the same? Very few. So once the glitter of “getting married” wears thin, its just dynamic her and plain vanilla him. Had he been expected to have a real date, he would have seen the need to develop a list of likes and dislikes so he can choose someone that melds with his personality. Since there is no such expectation, he simply stays static, and when she comes to that realization, she looks for something to hold her interest. Not a good recipe.
And yes, I am aware that there are chassidishe husbands / wifes that do the things us MOs do. That comes with a whole set of challenges on its own, because they need to hide this from their kids / parents, ect. Again, not a good thing.
As far as chossid bashing; hard to do that, when its my home turf, so yeah, I know this from the inside.. its where I grew up, and still operate. So, yes, I do speak from experience
While APY may have been a bit over the top, there is a great deal of truth to what is stated. By the time the 2 sit face to face, there is little that is not known. So what is left to discuss? Truth is, prior to sheva brachos, NOTHING. Beacuse by the time you get to the beshow point, the shidduch is basicaly aggreed upon by the parents, and to the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as a 3rd beshow. You either decide, or move on. And don’t try to be too choosy, as that may land you in serious hot water. Once the beshow is agreed to, its really a done deal, so in a way, what APY wrote is quite true; if you’re not repulsed, its a go.
As far as Philosopher’s points, the only thing the bochur can possibly do is say something foolish, so its best if he keeps quiet. He can speak his mind during sheva brachos, when short of being a serial killer, the kallah will be told, don’t worry; with time, you’ll grow to like him (udder yoh, udder nisht..translation, if it works fine, if not, that fine too. Mom / Dad don’t share many laughs either.. that’s the way it is in our cirlce)
As far as “vus failt eim” (translation: what’s he lacking),true, HE lacks nothing. After all, he’s getting a new apt, new furnature, a new friend, one that is more than likley quite a pleasant person. SHE on the other hand, may have gotten a real dud, who has never been given a chance to explore the world beyond the shul / yeshiva.. one that she is now saddled with for life. Still, I can’t be too critical of our chosson. After all, he’s been trained to avoid the opposite gender at all costs, and here you want him to make eye contact? Talk?
This system only works if the social system you’re in frowns on husband /wife interaction beyond the household essentials. Should Mrs. New Kallah want more than just a a domestic partnership, chances are she’s going to be flying solo.
IMHO, there is no substitute for going out on a real date. That way, you get to see how each party behaves over the course of an afternoon (dealing with traffic, driving manners, table manners, ect)
No kitty, sorry. I did’nt get my copy yet. I think its a Gateway weekend, so you might try calling them directly
Good post Aries –
While your ideas are good, the major obstacle I see with boys and girls on a beshow is that they lack basic social skills needed to communicate with genders other than their own. Girls have somewhat of an upperhand becuase they ususaly have a year or so of experience working among men. But the boy? Poor guy doesnt know what hit him. My friend’s son was “coached” on the 15 minute drive from his house to his beshow on what to say and what to ask.
Best is to let the girl do the talking and for the boy to just nod a lot. Keep the conversation light. They can (and do) make up for it during sheva brachos. I see it in BP all the time
“but why the heck is a guy with no beard learning in a chashuv yeshiva chashuv”
because chashivus is determined by a persons integrity, not his exterior.
Look around.. some very choshuv’e people are clean shaven.
Check the Hamodia weekend edition. There are hotels in NJ that are under an hour from NYC
Mine was fine, and to start off on a good note, I went to my parents for the post-fast meal (and welcome back, cantoresq!)
Perhaps the reason is, tzitzis are our “contract” with Hashem, illustrating our commitment to observe mitzvos and not to go astray. Since Tisha B’av is not the day to be touting such a broken promise, we try to keep a low(er) key until late afternoon when talis / tefillin are back on the agenda (just a thought)
After thinking a moment, Mr. XYZ decides to give it to one of the senior partners at his firm (seeing as how the firm was paying for the seminar in the first place). Mr. XYZ proceeds to explain how the seminar asked him the find someone that inspired him and in thinking about all the people he knows at the firm, he realized that Mr. Senior Partner has over the years been a good mentor and shown good leadership qualities, and has been a good role model, and as such, Mr. XYZ has in many ways become a better manager himself, ect, ect, ect, and feels that Mr. Senior Partner made a difference in his life. He presents the sticker, along with the 2nd sticker for Mr. Partner to pass along to someone else.
I posted this awhile ago on another thread, but your post is off to a slow start (probably beacuse of the taanis) I’ll get the ball rolling:
Last summer, my friend’s car broke down in the Home Depot parking lot on the NJ 17. Within 5 minutes, Chaverim was there. Pretty standard so far.
Unfortunatly, they could not help us. So with little choice, we settled down until AAA showed. So why am I telling you this story? Becuase “it just so happened” that we broke down on Tisha B’av and “it just so happened” that I had picked up a copy of Tisha B’av to Go from YU, and “it just so happened” that Dr. D Pelcovits had an article in that issue on the subject of dealing with loss, that helped me address the issue with my son, who had just lost a friend in a car accident.
2 hours later, AAA showed up and towed us away. But in those 2 hours, I was able to reach my son when / and in a way he needed me to. Was is becuase it was Tisha B’av that I was more receptive to dealing with pain? Was it because I was stranded in the middle of NJ, so I was able to relate to being alone and know how meaningful it would be if someone were able to reach out and help me? Not sure, but its probaly a combination of all the above (not to mention hashgacha pratis from The One Above)
So I guess you could still call this a Chaverim success story, after all.
“believe in G-d not your next door neighbor”
What a GREAT line. thanks for the post Asterix
I was going to stay out of this becuase the rest of you seemed to be slugging it out pretty good on your own.
But Mischiefmaker deserves an answer:
IGNORE THIS NONSENSE, MM. Our nshei chayil (both current and future) are by and large frum and erlich, regardless of what a few hot-heads say.
Wanton? Lewd? Gimme a break. Halevie I should daven mincha like some of these women.
From what I was able to gather, Menashe’s problem was his concern that the divinely divided land would transfer by default to tribes it was not intended for. He did’nt have a better soloution, but he was still worried about the outcome down the road.
Not sure why he was the one to speak up, but that’s how I understood his complaint.
Gee, I never thougt of single malt or bourbon as the best strategy for an easy fast.
Oh well, never too late to learn!
Rescue and kitty –
I have no degree nor a certificate. But I do have results. I’m in my 40s and can keep up with folks 20 years younger than me. My weight / BMI is in check and I knocked my cholesterol numbers down to the optimal category, same for my blood pressure. (same goes for the rest of the BP household)
In short, I don’t just talk a good game, I walk the walk too. Besides, what’s to lose? A few months? The surgery option will still be there if I can’t accomplish what I say I can.
What I’m prepared to offer is a sustainable way of living. Not starvation, not living on energy bars, not exercising to the point of collapse. Sure, it takes commtiment and disipline, something bnei (and bnos) yisroel know a thing or two about.
p.s. like all the volenteer work I do, its for free and I put my heart and soul into it, so it produces results. All I need is the commitment from the other person.
to all those who wonder about the self-imposed exile we country go-ers put ourselves thru –
As a veteran of many years up and down the 17 (the main road to the “country”), I come away from 9 mid-week separation with 3 things
1) I learn to appreicate how hard it is to cook / do laundry after a day’s work
2) by seeing how many families truly work (kids, spouses, helping out, temper ect) I learn to appreciate my spouse and family all the more.
3) see how, despite the sacrafices I need to make for the sake of sholom bayis / raising a family, the alternative (being alone) is far worse.
Like all separations / challenges, you can use the time to brood and curse your fate, or use it as a springboard to see how fortunate you are.
Besides, its only 9 weeks, not the end of the world.
No question about it, a beard is a very choshuv’e thing (in fact, I have one myself).
But to say that shaving is assur? Explain BMG and Mir. If it were assur, the Roshei Yeshiva would put a stop to it.
I think beer is not on the x list for the 9 days, so maybe you could use that?
All things being equal, if I needed to move within the parameter you set, Waterbury would be my choice. The rail commute alone makes it worthwhile. I can tell you, a 2.5 hour car commute can easily become a 4 hour trip. And what if you’re wiped out after a hard day? You can’t catch a nap while driving yourself.
Here are 3 typical scence at our colony:
1 – I, my wife, 3 neighbors and their spouses will sit in front of our units and shmooze. All present, all accoounted for. If one spouse leaves (and does not intend on returning in a minute or so), the other leaves too.
2 – my family will be invited to a meal at a neighbor. We do not sit a separate tables, but we do sit “round-robin” so no one is sitting next to someone of another gender, not of thier family
3 – there are 2 couples, and another 5 men, I’ll join the conversation. Standing only, so its not going to take root. Its a passing conversaion, usually after shul on Shabbos or to discuss where people are going that day / visiting day logistics, rides home, ect.
So do I “talk to my friends wife”? Yes. Would I “shmooze” with her for an extended period of time? No.