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“men on here that know so much stuff”
One word: Google. Ok, two words: Wikipidia as well.
80% of what I know, was aquired by reading and listening to those who knew more than I do.
The remaining 20% (or more importantly,the 20% I need to launch a compelling case) is the result of a web search, culling the info that’s out there, and coming to a conclusion that I feel I can stand behind.
I may not have all the answers, but I know where to look for them.
“I am not saying this to boast about my son”
And why not? Sounds like a fine young man to me!
Ok, all this nice-nice is making me want to draw all the chairs into a circle and sing the “Barney” song.
Can you please tell us the object of your ire? C’mon Aries, this had to be a doozy, for it to trigger a post (considering the other presing issues we had on the stovetop this week)
You have seen overweight horses.
Its the black saddle that makes them look 10 lbs lighter
“But it would be extreme to indirectly force all boys to work. “
Agreed. And its just as extreme to (indirectly) force all boys (and girls) to want the kollel life
” …don’t believe that such girls exist.”
Of course they do. And so do the girls / boys that I’m advocating for.
“The ticket to having the girls line up is to say you are learning”
Now, I’m confused. Are you telling me that, there is a shortage of girls who would be willing to consider a working boy? And that only boys that tout the party line will get calls?
OK, lets look at it another way. The “lakewood freezer” is about to crack open (some time next week, I think). Do you honestly believe that EVERY boy from last year’s crop is married or engaged? And that its only the girls who are left out in the cold? (freezer pun intended). And that a girl, 21-22 is ONLY looking at the new harvest, and not interested in someone who is truly her peer? I don’t.
I think there are plenty of boys, ages 24-26 who would work, if they believed we as parents (of both boy and girl) would endorse the idea. And plenty of girls who feel this way too.
” only looks like it in our eyes…. they’re here in the world somewhere ”
“i just want a guy who learns but will also support”)
Ok, we are on the same page. My question is, did you ever voice this opinion to your HS or Sem teachers? Your parents?
If the answer is yes, then you are part of the solution.
If the answer is no, then why not?
“Yoish”
Priceless. I haven’t heard one of those is ages.
Ok, Shoshi. I saw your post on the “nasi” page. I’ll be right there.
” How come no one mentioned me? ”
What? You are the subject of a thread in which your name appears! How many of us are zoicheh to that?
(BTW – I miss your “that’s Real Brisk, Baby!” tag line)
” It will not help the girls out there now, or for the next ten years, though. “
No, this I cannot accept. Here’s why:
Girls out there now: There are GOOD boys out there NOW who, for whatever the reason, are not choosing to follow the learning full time path. Those boys need to be cultivated and encouraged so the girls are not all chasing the same 200-300 new arrivals each zman.
10 years from now: no one can predict the future. But is we give voice to a new train of thought, it might, might, might catch on.
Fact is, we as Jews have always been faced with tough odds to beat. But we do. Always have, always will.
Admit defeat? Give in to despair? Never.
Unless the poster is just being irritating for the sake of stirring up muck, best I can tell, we’re a pretty civil bunch, and treat all posters (new and old) with respect.
Which post ticked you off so? And before you say anything, please let me qualify my 1st paragraph: I make every effort to treat posts with seriousness.. unless you are here to rile us up. Then, I get out my 2×4 (with rusty nails) and start swinging.
Other than that, I think we play nicely with one another. No?
“too many parents are not strong enough (or agree) with the schools to create changes”
And that, is where blogs come into play.
You and I are old enough to remember a time when many ills in our midst were kept silent. Enter the web, and presto! The unheard voices, the unasked questions, are suddenly in the spotlight.
Don’t think revolution. Think evolution (no, not the darwin kind). A change in attitude comes slowly, but steadily.
There was a time that EVERYONE made a huge chasseneh or bar mitzvah or Shabbos Sheva Brachos. Along came the chassidim and takanah halls (in BP and Willy) and all of a sudden, its OK to be different.
No, its not for everyone, and no, it won’t happen en masse. But the change in the staus quo in reagard to the shidduch scene will happen. My guess? 5 years, max.
” that thing is way too long for me too read i will just get lost and prob bored “
And you have college aspirations?
Brace yourself for a life of $10/hr. And when your Sem teachers tell you, ONLY take a learing boy, listen to them.
You’ve earned one.
” … your children will believe is what is taught….
“… it is not implementable without the Yeshivas & Beis Yaakovs. And they will never do it “
Here, I disagree. Being the product and the patron of the “Yeshiva system” what I have heard is a critisism of the “outside world” (which is of course true) and nothing but praise for the life of learning (which is also true).
Where I think the “system” fails, is by letting the kids come to the conclusion, that its either / or. Pass or fail. Kosher or traif.
We, as adults, know that there is a time and place for everything. And under the right conditions, even things that are “off limits” under some circumstances, can become not just ok, but even something mandated.
So, its not that the kids are hearing no, never.
They are hearing, not now, not yet.
And that’s where we (as parents) step in and say, now is the time to be a grown up and do the things that grownups do.
And its not k’neged halacha or a goyish hashkafa. Its the way Yiddish homes are run.
1st half of sem already behind you? Wow, that must make you AT LEAST 19. No wonder you’re in panic mode. Life has almost past you by! :/
Do yourself a favor. Please read the “NASI – The inside scoop” thread, specifically about what said in school / sem about making choices in life. I’d be interested to hear your take on this.
And please, don’t just read the opening post and comment. Read each post, draw a conclusion, and tell us what you think.
The problem with threads like this, is that the people who are truly off line, won’t see their name, and the people who are just on the sidelines (but fail to get mentioned) feel marginalized.
Suffice to say, if you were at one point active (and as a rule, played nicely with the other CR inmates) YOU ARE MISSED, and we want to hear from you.
If you just grown up, and no longer blog, <sigh> that’s too bad. But we wish you luck anyways. Enjoy watching the grass grow, or whatever it is that you off liners do.
If you’ve since moved on to another site, you don’t know what you’ve been missin!
Gedolim…Bais Yaakovs…Sems…..
You are right. No help wil come from these quarters. Their job is to push one ideal: Torah above all else. Their job is to make you aspire to reach for the sky.
Who I was talking to was the PARENTS. (and indirectly, the girls themselves).
Our job is to meld Torah with reality. I could quote a dozen meforshim that support my theory. So could 99% of the CR. Torah that is not sustainable is not what we are all about.
Yehadus / hashkafa is all for being a baal achroi. You find it in gemmorah, you find it in chumash.
Its the “media hype” that has made work and accountability something to be ashamed of.
As far as “yeshivish becoming MO” that does not fly with me, for 2 reasons:
# 1 – it implies that the MO are somehow “less” than us.
Not so. They are just following a different mehallech. Much like the shtramel / #70s crowd. Not better; just different.
# 2 – it implies that, to enter the workforce, you are by default “giving up something”. Again, not so. True, you need to be careful in the workforce, but by the same token, our boys need to be careful when they fly off for a year in EY. If you can trust them, you can trust them. As long as we are dilligent, and they know for whom they are truly working for and what they are working towards, we can build a true Ben Torah.
” suggested method of implementation is……. “
I have one.
Starting at age 16, girls need to hear that there is no reason for them to break their heads, getting good marks, so they can get a degree, so they can support their husbands.
Next, tell them they need not rush into marraige at 19, because the quality boys are not running away. They are only getting more mature as the get into the 23-24 slot, hence better suited for the job of being a decent, appreciative husband.
Most important, is the next belief. They need to start looking for boys that have a job (or are almost done with getting their degree. Anything less, is an insult to the hard work the girls have (and continue to) put in towards getting a good carrear.
Once boys know what is expected of them, they will look for ways to achieve it. If the “admission ticket” to the dating arena means you need to be employable, you can be sure the boys will figure out a way to get in the game.
For too long, we have allowed our boys to live a double-standard, and its high time we demand from them the same accountability we do from our girls.
” hate to break character “
While in theory, I agree with the OP, the way in which it was said was a bit harsh.
Which leads me to question one thing. The Squeak I used to hear from in the CR was the one who “communicates with dolphins”.
The Squeak that posted now, has a new tag. New person? Same person,new attitude?
I hope its the former. I’d like to think the old Squeak could do a better job than this.
I say this, because I know one of the Rabbonim listed on the Nasi signators, and to suggest that he would be part in a conspriacy is unthinkable. And to suggest that he could be duped? That, I also doubt. His circle of Talmidim (both past and present) are very much a part of the shidduch pool, and the same time, very web saavy. To think they would take part in a project that was intended to be a scam? No, I don’t buy that.
So, my gut feeling is, the Squeak that posted is not the Squeak we know.
(Even if it is a troll, its still a topic I love to comment on)
“help me gain back my love..for a…Torah life?”
How’s this: Forget the “boy” and marry an adult who works AND learns.
That’s a Torah life worth loving!
I’m a bit past the camp sending stage, but I’ve been thru this a number of times, so here’s what I can share with the CR:
If you are talking about camps like Munk, Toras Chesed, Agudah, Rayim (although I’m sure I will get flak for listing these 4 camps in one sentence), you are looking at anywhere from $4000-$5000.
There are also newer camps (check papers like Hamodia, Yated) and you can find 6 week programs for about $3000-$3500).
No idea what Chassidishe places (like Bobov, Satmar, Vishnitz) charge, but I would guess its under $3000.
If I had to pick a place based on price alone, but still be pretty confident that the fun and frumkiet was still up to speed, I would look into Chabad / Gan Yisroel.
Regardless of which place you choose, camp (IMHO) is as important, and in many ways, more important, than is your choice of which school to send him to. The 8 weeks of the summer can be a make or break decision. If choice A is “only” a difference of $300-400, over the cost of choice B, and the camper really wants to go to choice A, the extra $ is the best investment you might ever make.
Trust me on this one. I’ve been down this road before. Sometimes the best bargain is no bargain.
Wow, is it summertime already? Yippee!
” when did you get so funny? “
When you live in BP, the materiel is just there to be picked up. Everywhere you look, every conversation, is funnier than funny.
The problem is, they think they are being serious. And, THAT’s funny !
” genetically modified or irradiated “
My local grocer? This is what he will say:
Genetically modified? Oh,don’t worry. Dor Yisharim assures me that if just one of you tests negative, its not a problem
Irridated? No, they water the produce from overhead sprinklers. Irridation runs the risk of bug infestation. No telling what is to be found in irridation canals.
” give any pines a kiss? “
(Porcu)pines? Pine(apples)? Gee, I never thought of that.
Pine trees? No, that might be misconstrued as paying homage to the late December tree-intensive celebration.
But I am going to go “off grid” this weekend. (As will all of us).
See? Being green is nothing new.. we Yidden have been doing so for centuries!
ARWSF – How about this for ironic? Grain fed beef. Sounds like the rancher is doing the steer a big favor, and feeding him something healthful, no?
In fact, grass is better, and the grain is in reality harder for the animals to digest. But it fattens then faster, which means more $$$.
If only we knew the “cost” of getting our food to the table.
Now, you’ll excuse me, I have to go outside and hug a few trees, and save a few whales.
” What do you all think about this?? “
JMJ – I think you need to take the time to write what you want to say in a coherent manner. Clearly, what you want to discuss is of interest, but for the life of me, I have no idea what side of the issue you are on.
And GAW – Its so funny you should mention this thought, because just last week, I was listening to “Machashefa” from Rechnizter Rejects. Heesself. Ha!
” kids that go OTD “
Your point is well taken, Aries. But again, I want to draw a distiction between the boys motive and that of the girl. True, both are in pain. But the girl says, ” I don’t deserve any better / I’m not worth anything. So my destructive behavior is no big deal.”
The boy is also in pain, bu he says to himself, ” I can get away with this, and I won’t be held accountable for anything I do as a teen / young adult.”
Both had a lapse in judgment. One is filled with regret. The other is filled with rage at the system, for being so exacting. One gets our empathy. But the other only gets our pity.
And as far as not being able to listen to the voice of reason, Rabbi Wallerstein’s shuir that I mentioned was aimed specifically at young adults. He speaks up to them, not down at them.
better yet.. claim to know all there is to know about someone else’s shul. Even though its been x years since you’ve been inside.
(Sorry, Soliek.. I couldn’t resist 🙂
“who all know each other from way back when”
Considering that the CR is only about 2 years old, there’s only so far we “old timers” can go back.
Want to feel like your’re part of the gang? Say something outrageous and get an EDITED on your post.
Nothin’ gets you more friends faster!
I can think of several. But please elaborate a bit; How much? How fast? How motivated? How old? What gender? Are children (either bearing or raising) a factor?
All these things need to be taken into consideration before making suggestions.
And like Shidduchim, this is a topic I (and much of the CR) never tire of discussing. So fire away!
No, it was not a senior moment; I just wrote a sloppy post. I’ll rethink it and repost later in the day.
But for the record, I am drawing a BIG distiction between the baal teshuva you (and I, and most posters) typically think of, as opposed to the one presented in the OP in this thread.
Later – BP
And not one word about the proper use of chargers and napkin rings.
Those out of towners… ya gotta love em!
I have no personal experience with the girls division per se, but have many friends who sent their daughters as staff. Both staff and parents were very happy, and where possible, went back for a 2nd seaon. And, I have had a very positive experience with the boys division, with my boys as staff members.
That said, I would ABSOLUTELY recommend choosing this as a summer job. It will help you grow as a person, and make you think about the “why’s” of yiddishkeit, instead of just the “whats”.
Its also a load of fun, the food / grounds / activities (as opposed to the rahh-rahh of the BY type camps)
If I had to pick a down side, the only thing I could say, is that its 4 hour drive from NYC (which might not be a bad thing, after all).
If you can get a job there, take it.
Rice cakes and duck sauce (its an inside joke)
” If it does please enlighten me. “
The 1st place I can think of is the 2nd parsha of Shema.In a nutshell, its spells out what we can expect for being a team member.
As far a guarrantees, no, nothing is a really a cause-effect ratio, becuase that would preclude free choice (and hinder your ability to enjoy the reward, which you would otherwise earn on your own.)
The 2nd best indicator of how well our system works is our past performance. Look at any funtioning, loving family and you’ll see that for the most part, its the roots that a religion give you, that keep you steady.
Sounds like a ad line, but fact is, once you’re in (meaning: have your own family), you’ll see there really is no better vehicle to get you to the finish line.
3500+ successful years can’t all be a smokescreen.
“family life that AFAIK the Torah does not directly address”
Sorry, I’m not sure what AFAIK means. Please rephrase.
“can’t get married, feel alienated…, have no friends”
This, I cannot accept. No one “cannot” get married, find a community that is suitable, or make friends. True, you might not be a good fit in XYZ community, but nothing is stopping you from finding the place that is right for you.
Same goes for friends. You may not be able to run with the A++ crowd, but so what? Neither can I, and I have several friends. Perhaps not the ones that make headlines, but ones who are happy to hear from me and vice versa.
Lastly, finding a shidduch:
EVERYONE has a match. As long as you are clear about what YOU want in life (and not what the neighbors, Sem teachers say you should want), the process is much eaiser.
(and please tell me what AFAIK means, as I really want to address that question)
Bookmark. I’ll post later. (Thanks, Flowers!)
We might very well have a crisis, but like all challenges you’ve faced (schools, jobs, freinds, siblings, ect) there are solutions to the problems.
The biggest hurdle we face today is lack of attention span. Unless it arrives by e-mail or IM, few of us can focus on anyone or anything for more than a minute or two. So even if there are good suggestions / candidates out there, no one can connect the dots, because no one is zeroing in on YOU.
What I would suggest, is start going to shul on Shabbos morning. Not just any shul, and not necessarily a “singles shul”; find the kind of shul that has the type of people that you want to be, 5-10-20 years down the line.
Then, get to know the mainstays of the shul. The Rebbetizn, the lady who alway sits in the same spot, week after week, the lady who waits for her husband, so they can walk home together, ect. and allow them to get to know you. Really know you. Chances are, they (or someone the know) will be able to find a suitable match. I say this, becuase instead of casting a wide net, hoping to snare something of value (like going to a chaseneh, where there are 100+ girls, all dressed in black) they will see YOU and you only.
By picking a shul that represents your values, you stand a good chance of finding (or in this case, being found) by what is best for you.
The real key is patience. Anything worth something will not be found in an instant. Learning who you are will take time (figure on 6 weeks) and then after you’ve established your presence, if you’ve not been approached, (which I somehow doubt) ask the people, “can you reccomend someone I could talk to about finding a suitable shidduch?” After a few weeks of visibilty, they will not feel put off by the question.
Also, keep an eye out for someone that appears to be a person you would want to meet. After seeing him for a few weeks in a row (how he davens, what time he gets to shul, who he sits with, ect) you will be able to ask the rebbetizn who he is, and how you can get in touch with the family to get things rolling.
No one knows what you want better than you do. So take the initiative and go get it!
You’ve do so in other areas and have been successful, this is no different. Stop being a passenger, and take control of the wheel yourself.
Hatzlacha!
The serenity that comes with being frum (whatever brand you’re comfortable with) is a SPOKEN promise. Chazal tell us so, contemporary gedolim tell us so.
The problem is, we try to “cash the check” at the mall, the office, the car showroom, the street, ect, and in general, chase the “dream” that Madison Ave tells us we NEED in order to be happy.
Are all the boxes checked within x years of joining? No.
Is there an alternative for us to consider? Again, no.
Will we eventually get our just rewards? BET ON IT!
” Thanks for the clarification. “
For the record, I have a similar guideline for men as well.
There is no reason we as a society should make demands of women, without setting standards for men as well.
And as long as we are working with a sliding scale (no pun intended) I suggest this as a “weight” barometer:
If your hips / shoulders are wider than your waistline, you can deduct 10 lbs from your actual scale weight. That will give credit where its due to the young ladies that are athleticly inclined.
After all, anyone can be a size 2 if they starve themselves. What we need to start seeing (and rewarding) are people that enjoy a healthy, fun life.
” whose father is in jail “
You say this, like its a bad thing.
I mean, its not like he commited a blue collar crime. Anyone can make a paperwork mistake. Or fail to declare a few hundred (millon) dollars.
Give a guy a (jail)break!