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Hard to put a time limit / topic guidline on this one, but lets try this as a guide:
Listen to HER talk (lenght of time and range of topics), as much as you expect her to listen to YOU.
If I ramble on for 30 minutes about whatever, I should be willing to listen to her talk about XYZ with the same enthusiasm and attentiveness.
Ok, seeing the truly great photos you all have, I’m a bit humbled, but in for a penny, in for a pound!
I posted two shots that I thougt were good: (link below)
The 1st shot is a “self portrait” of my son (it was his idea, and I thought it was a creative one
The 2nd one was a lucky shot, as the reflection in the puddle was pure chance, and I did’nt even see it when I took the shot (obviously, I missed the trees in the foreground, too ;(
Boy, wolf, you really started a good thread!
http://picasaweb.google.com/117659108854434852424/UntitledAlbum#
I once heard someone put it this way:
Halacha / hashakafa is like a box, but one that has flexible walls. There are limits to how much give and take, but you sometimes need to be a bit accomodating to new developments. But the absoulute dimensions of the box is not debatable
All of us (BTs and FFBs) have some experiences (great acceptacne in speechgiving or teaching) that others do not enjoy. I have a friend who for lack of a better word is Mr. Charisma. He just oozes class and charm. You can’t buy it, you can’t fake it. He’s not even the richest or most extravagant of my friends. He just has the aura.
Does that mean I need to jump off a bridge? Of course not. Becuase I write better than he does (or so I think), so while I may never be guest of honor or get a plaque for doing something stellar, I still get my fair share of feel good moments.
The other people you refer to may not experience the same “warm fuzzy” feeling at each and every encounter,but on the whole, I think seeing good happy successful stories are a good morale booster. Besides, they may experience it at a later date and take extra chizuk knowing that they are part of a larger community, and are “in”.
Either way, seeing good happy things helps you see other things that way.
Oomis – your story reminded me of a similar one. Many years ago, my son (at the time, around 5 or 6 y/o) was getting the business from another (bigger, tougher) kid in the country. Fights, shoves, riding off with his bike and leaving it wherever, ect)
All pleas to the mother were promtly dealt with “talking” to her son (this was a no potch household, natch).
So, with little alternative, I crouched down so we were eyeball to eyeballand told this little angel,(in my best deadpan,icy cold voice) “if you don’t stop hassling my son, I’m going to drag you into the forrest, tie you to a tree, and let the bears eat you”
Being all of 6 or 7, he beleived me, so he stopped. Why? Becuae he saw that while he could run slipshod all over his parents (beacuse no rarely meant no) he could not be so sure with me (as he saw that my kids were kept in line), so best not to take chances with the bears.
I aslo once heard remarked that a potch is like first aid at the scene of an accident. Reasoning / explaining why something is wrong is like a consulation with a doctor. In an emergency, you admininster first aid. A kid wreaking havoc in a store or terrorizing a classmate is a code red 5 alarm blaze and calls for quick, decisive action.
Sof –
I have no idea on the system used in EY or Europe, so I cannot comment on that. America however is my home turf, so unless you’re talking about the super-duper ultra yeshivish crowd or children (grandchildren?) of rabbonim / rosh yeshiva, the “bent down brim” crowd goes out. (for the most part at least).
Now, on to my next question:
Curly – Although I / my family do not wear the full geshtell, living in 11219, we know a great deal about the “heimish” crowd who will opt for a Shtramel / bekkisheh, yet are not directly tied to a particular chassidus.
That said, internet (and TV/movies/ mixed swimming, ect) are probably big time no-nos in both your background and that of your chosson. Yet, you seem to be ok with interacting on the CR. Fine. So are all of us.
But what would be the reaction to finding out (after the tenioyim) that the chosson is a regular visitor to this (or any other) on-line forum? Not a pleasant surprise, I would imagine.
This is why I am such a critic of the beshow in today’s “flexidish” market. On the one hand, there is every expectation that both parties at the beshow will be on the same page in terms of commitment to living a chassidish lifestyle. Yet, one of the parties (in this case, you) is quite comfortable on-line. Is your chosson just as comfortable? Hard to tell, if you only meet in a 1-2 hour, very controlled, very supervised setting.
Getting out for a day, in the outside world (like a park) would give you each a chance to see how the other operates in “real-time”. Again, the beshow worked (and still works) fine when both parties were cut from the same pattern. But when one (or both) has outside influence, that’s a varaiable that should be known in advance. And there is little chance this can be determined in a 2 hour meeting.
Since you seem to be headed for a “go out” date, you should be fine. Just keep your ears / eyes open. The last thing you want in a spouse is someone who is not on the same page as you. The prospective mechutonim need to meet? Let them. But the two of you need some space to see what each are really thinking, not what the script says.
Another good litmus test: watch his driving habits. Tells you loads about his personallity.
Hatzlocha! (or as they say in 11219, Hatzlucheh!)
Sof –
Are you talking about the shidduch scene here in America? Beause the last time I checked, 99% of non-chassidish dates are the go out kind (lobbys, parks, zoos, ect) and 99% of the chassidish dates are sit-ins. If you have more timely info, I’d love to know about it.
Curly – Heimsh can mean anything, but in my world (yes, sof, that menas BP) that means you / he will wear the chassidish levush, but do not necessarily belong to a chassidus. If that’t the case, I’ll move on to my next question
I’m with oomis. When it comes to shidduchim, the only reference you should list (boy or girl) is the rov / rebbetzin of your primary shul.
p.s. – if you don’t have a primary shul (in most cases, this is the one you daven at on shabbos / yom tov) then by all means. GET ONE! If you daven at 10 different places, then no one (perhaps not even yourself) really knows you.
If you’re talking about a job resume, your former co-workers or supervisors will do. Most people however, write “referneces available upon request”.
Besides, a real good shadchan (or parent) will do their own research, so the person you list is the not as important as you think. It makes a statement (that’s why I favor the rov / rebbetzin) but in the end, the real info comes from homework.
Either way, Hatzlocha Rabbah!
Pardon me for being nosy, Curly, but if the 1st two dates were bishows, am I correct in guessing that the 2 of you are more chassidish than litvish / yeshivish? Or has the bishow been brought over to the yeshivish world? Or is this taking place outside of america, where the formatt is different?
“actually i heard that you talk incessantly during the leining”
I was wondering what Mod-80 was drinking, as this sure sounded out of charachter (Very funny line, now that I get the joke!)
SM 29 –
I’m not quite sure I understood your question, but this is what I took from the OP:
Your concern is what if other people who share thier stories don’t get rave reviews or open arm acceptance?
I can tell you that my life’s journey is not the stuff that movies and books are made of. And more than likely, I’ll never make the cover of a weekly publication. Know what? It matters zip to me, becuase the only fans I care about are my family and the only critic I take seriously is Hashem (or His agents, as they come along)
So to say that
SMS –
The credo we live by is really one that was said about pesach cleaning, but it holds true to some extent for the whole year:
1) dust is not chometz
2) your spouse is not a shmatteh
3) your kids are not korbanos
That said, (even though I’m the male half of the BPT partnership) I know a thing or two about housekeeping, and cooking.
No, it is not acceptable to serve cereal and milk for supper, and no, changing the linen when the seasons change is too late.
But you do NOT need to make a “sheva brachos” supper each day of the week, and there is nothing wrong with asking the person who occupies the bed to at the very least strip and re-dress their own bed (unless its a toddler or invalid)
Besides, you (like all overworked housewives) need some time to recharge, and if you happen to work out of the house as well, I would change the ratio to 50/50 (housework time vs. personal time).
Running a house is hard work (I should know.. I’ve been solo since the start of the summer) and it deserves time off.
Our shul is self policed, so no one “shushes” anyone else. Though, from time to time we do glare at the occasional cell phone violator (unless his ringtone is way cool)
And were I to go to movies, I would NOT shut my phone (I might miss a CR update!)
Its a great shot! Unbelievable that it takes 200+ shots to get one good one.
I have a handful of nice shots (not of proffesional quality, though) that might be post-worthy.
I’ll sign up for an account, so you (and any other CR members) can see what they think
Do I know my customers, or what?
Trust your inner voice. YOU ALREADY DO MORE THAN NECESSARY.
Use this as a barometer: Total up the time spent doing dishes, laundry, meals prep, ect. for a 4 day period (not including Shabbos related things)
Then, compare that against the time you spent on YOURSELF in the same time slot(and talking on the phone while you iron, does not count)
If you did not carve out a quarter of that for yourself (2 hours self time to 8 hours housework) you need to do less
If you did not take at least
Curly –
was the date a go out type, or a bishow?
Since you did not specify laziness about what, I can only give you the general rule. If its a goal you want to acheive, ask those who have achieved the goal and ask them how they did it.
Few people can motivate you like ones who have already succeeded. Plus, as a rule, they love to help others reach the same goal.
Unless you’re talking about housekeeping. In that case, you’re already an overachiever (most people are) so my advise is give in to the laziness and go do something fun!
Good catch, bomb! (No, it was not intentional)
“for every single slap he gave me, he game be 1000 times as much in love, affection, and attention”
Well said, bomb.
“ich hub a hooked up cadi mit a cherry light”
Holtzich – you forgot the “lead’ner zitzin”!
Small wonder you have doubts about your self esteem. BP is a tough playground.
Not to worry; I’ve been here more than 40 years, and I overcame lots obstacles. So will you!
I would tend to say no, beaucse of maris ayin (assuming you have the full geshtel of a yeshivish / chassidish person).
In absense of that, then yes.
That warm fuzzy feeling is just the beginning! You’ll really feel good about yourself when you lock horns with one of us on a topic (assuming you win!)
And now that I think of it, XBP.. does that mean ex-Boro Park? ‘Cause if it does, let me tell you; there is NO escaping boro park. It follows you wherever you go. 🙂
Oh. So you’ev got one toddler, and possibly an infant. Cool!
Let’s revisit this conversation whaen you’re dealing with a 5 and 7 year old.
Don’t believe me? Lets see how the other CR memebres weigh in.
“Would you use this same advice for a husband to use on his wife?”
yes.. if the wife was a 4 year old.
So SJS, what of it? Did you really, never hit your kid(s)?
SJS –
Let me make sure I understood you correctly;
You have (or at one point did have) kids that are between ages 2 and 7 and NEVER hit them? Not ever? Or are you saying that you feel its wrong, but when necessary, you will do so? (with restraint, and only when absolutly necessary, of course)
p.s. – I was talking about dishwashing liquid soap (not Easy Off, or St. Moritz). And no, I’m not scarred from my abusive childhood. Mostly because for every act of disipline, I was showered with 100x worth of acts of care and affection. In a much larger scope, Hashem finds it necessary to disipline us from time to time. Yet we still love Him with all our heart ans soul. Why? Because deep down, we know he loves us, because He proves it day after day, thru acts of kindness. PLus, (if we’re being honest with ourselfes) we know that the disipline was justified.
As long as the ratio (frequency and intensity)of love to discipline is 99.5% to .5%, it will not be a problem. I can’t predict the future, but past experience has shown this to be an effective way to raise kids.
You’re refering to a case of a little kid. 99% of us would agree that in that instance a potch is necessary.
What I’m referring to is more of a grey area, like a 12 or 14 year old who acts up. There, parents need to think twice.
Beyond age 16, you’re really up a creek. In fact, chances are, petch at that point, petch may even be counter-productive.
But I still hold my ground on the “no-potch rule” when it comes to school staff, regardless of the age. Unless its in self-defense, there are no grounds for them to raise their hand. Ever.
Bottom or hand only. Face is out of the question. And coming from a parent only.
For those of you too young to remeber the 70s, petch was the norm in Brooklyn. Real bad deeds got the belt, the ruler or the tablespoon. Really REALLY bad deeds got the whack on the finger tips (palm up, fingers closed into a pyramid)
This was from parents and school alike. But today? School staff has no right to do any of these things. Even parents need to rethink how and when.
Oh, and now that I think of it, bad words got special treatment. Depending on the severity, it was either liquid soap in the mouth or black pepper on the tounge. As you can guess, I was a real chevrah-mahn 😉
Our general rule of thumb was ok up to about 10 or 11 years old, in public. Beyond that, long pants was the standard. In a men only situation (like a gym, pool or camp) then shorts for adults were still ok.
Oddly enough, camps (the black-hat ones, I mean)seem to turn a blind eye towards older boys in shorts, even though the grounds are packed with girls and women. Kind of a double standard, as they would never allow girl campers to dress down if men were present.
Go figure.
Last night, I saw a trucking company called Shekhinah (wonder what the payload was).
But my all time favortive was a family I sat across from on the train a few years ago. The little boy was fidgeting and fussing and the mother said, “Hashem, sit still!)
I kid you not.
Visit the CR more often! You’d be hard pressed to find a more supportive, accepting group than us.
Seriously, find something you do well, and focus on that. From there, you can build on other skills / techniques.
I just picked up a great phrase a few weeks ago. Its really about disaster-preparedness and emergency management, but it works for most areas in life:
“Overcoming challenges is 90% psychology 10% methodology”
or in Yiddish its tracht gut, svet zain gut (think positive, and things will work themselves out)
There are dozens of quotes that support this idea, but use this alone as a barometer: you posted a new thread an hour ago and you got several responses sop far (and l-rd knows we’ve been busy today with other threads).
So how can you think youself a loser?
“sell out on the underlying culture”
Yom mean the Jamacian accent? That’s an act. Alot like Lipa S, when he raps. But when he davens or bentches, he’s just like you and me (ok, maybe not like you, but like me). And if you really must know, Matisyahu goes to great lengths to keep as much yiddishkeit as he can. He is very makppid on negiah and arrainges for minyan whenever possible. For many years, the “jewish face” of hollywood / media was woody allen or steven speilberg and folks like that. By any measure (other than the rasta accent) he does a fine job of showing the world how jews are a part, and at the same time, apart, from secular society. Time was, the only photo of a yid with a beard appeared in the news, he was dong the perp walk. I think this is better PR.(Plus, his songs are really cool, once you make peace with the accent)
Point is, these very visible people prove that us yidden do not need to dress down / change names anymore. (
“My son wears one and it’s perfectly fine with me. My other son doesn’t”
We have that much in common. In my lineup, Son # 1 is a cool dude, while son 3 is what we lovingly call our lakewood greaseball.
All basicaly on the same track as me, just all different.
Off topic? Thank you for bringing up the topic. I’m a huge fan of Matisyahu, but did not see how I could broach the subject.
In fact, it sort of is on topic. Wether you love or hate his music, he’s a prime example of how in today’s marketplace, you do not need to sugarcoat your reliegous / ethnic persona. If he can travel the world with laanga paiyos, beard and huge yarmulka, so can I.
I still remember the days of davening mincha at a phone booth. It taxi drivers / bike messengers can drop to the mat in the middle of NYC, I can hold a siddur in my hand without feeling ashamed.
“Yeravam. Or Achav. Or Deog.”
You forgot JC.
Wolf, stop it. Its not funny anymore.
“an apikorus and a rasha!” 🙂 “
Chas v’sholom! An ax to grind with us black hatters, maybe. But honestly wolf, I’m no stranger to sarcasm, but I think you’re a bit over the top the last few posts. I mean, c’mon, not destined for olam habbah?
If I’ve learned nothing else from my asociation with the CR, its that BTs are just as genuine as the FFBs. We may see things differently, but to say that some of us are going to heck? PLease.
I got lucky. My name is a Hebrew and secular name, so I’ve only got one. Spelling /accent is slilgly differnt in each, but my office / clients seem to have gotten the hang of the hebrew pronounciation. Besides, we’ve got some other ethnic people (India, Far East) with some real tounge-twister names, so my name is a cinch.
My boys have the expected bridges (Avrumi – Abraham, Yitzy = Issac, ect)
Though, since the topic of Yekkies was raised, in HS, we had several who had names that purposly had no obvious link to the hebrew ones. I remenber (Zelig was Bruce, Abba was Thomas, ect)
Apparently, that’s thier shitta.
But if I had to do it all over, I would not give my boys secular names. My co-workers / clients can get around just fine with thier ethnic names. Times have changed since the 60s and 70s, and ethnic names are no longer an obstacle in business.
“How do you know that I have any future Olam Habah?”
Thats easy – Its the opening line of each week’s Pirkei Avos. We all have a chelek. Its part of our contract.
I think we can all agree that true sincerity would not have been considered an “interruption” much like crying at a funeral would not be shusshed.
Its just that so many of us have seen “showmanship” (or as Wolf said one up-manship) that we can’t always tell who’s for real and who’s playing the game.
All things being equal, I think I’d rather be “bothered” by someone davening too loud than someone’s cellphone carnival-like ring going off for the 3rd time in one tefillah (yes, I’ve seen that..and they looked surprised when it rings. Duh.)
I really miss Haggen-daaz Rum Raisin and Carvel Butterscotch.
All the CY stuff tastes pretty much the same, so picking a “favorite” is kinda pointless.
Wolf –
Sorry, I missed this post:
“Even if I throw my TV out of the window…I’m missing the first, essential step of teshuva”.
Perhaps. But you’ve made step 2. Plus, getting out of the sun, (while you may not regret being out in the 1st place)will still protect you from a sunburn
“getting rid of a TV is like trying to bail out the Titanic with an eyedropper”.
never underestimate the power of a 1st move. (open for Me a door as wide a the eye of a needle, and I’ll open, ect)
I rarely go head to head with you, but when you talk down about yourself, that cannot go unchalleged.
BTW, I’ll proably ask the “plastic” question, but only to determine that our families are truly compatible. Not that I would nix a china only family, but given the choice…
I’ll lie about a dress my Mrs wears, even if I don’t like it because she likes it so why make her feel bad. But when a dish is a bomb, I’ll tell her I liked XYZ that was made last week better, because there she has my likes in mind.
Not an outright lie, but not exacly the truth either, so I’d list that one as an off white lie
No Wolf –
What I took your comment to mean (as I think you intended it) was that someones actions (like davening loudly) may have a negative impact on me (getting punched in the face).
You were clear; I was not
And while I don’t want to enter the fray re: who has / lost a chelek in Olam habah, SJSs comment was really funny!
(Wolf was very witty too, just not as funny)
Would I have a pool? Yes, I suppose I would if:
I had a good gate
I was able to train my kids to swim
I (or someone esle) was there to supervise
TV (and internet) usage is much harder to control and I doubt my kids are ready to swim that pool. And you do made a good point, knowing the IT dept can nail me is a very good deterent (that’s why I don’t have internet at home)
This tread was revived last week by “Post Sem Girl” and her very detailed post about the ins and outs of several seminaries.
For some reason her post is not showing now, but I’d still like to see what people (sem grads in particular) can tell me about shidduch options for working boys.
Feedback, anyone?
A punch in the nose? Hm, you have a point. Ok, let me say it a different way.
A few years back, my father was in the year for his mother. On top of that, he was on the threshhold of a surgical procedure. One morning during chazzoras ha’shatz, he started to cry (not, just weepy eyed.. I mean sobbing) by refoanu and again by shema kolainu.
Someone asked me, “what’s wrong?”
Before I could answer a 3rd person said “a yid cries by davening and we wonder whats wrong? We should all cry by davening. WE (those of us who daven like we’re reading a grocery shopping list) are the ones who have somwthing “wrong” with them.
Ok, so perhaps davening like its neelah every day, 3 times a day is a bit extreme. But, speaking for myself at least, a little more “bren” would not be a bad thing.
Besides, GAW has point. There may have been a special circumstance that trigered the outburst. Dan l’kaf zechus is a safe choice.
Clearly, since I’m on-line the majority of the 9-5 day (both work related and CR hock), I must agree with you. Useful tools are just that, useful and need to be handled with care.
But would I keep a loaded pistol in my home? Or live downstream of a coalmine? No, because the risk to my family’s health makes it too big a gamble. Both very useful things, but one’s best kept very far away from.
I may not be able to see the side effects of exposure right away, but the experts say its harmful, and hindsight seems to back them up, so why risk it? True, with proper safeguards technology can be a wonderful thing, but at home? That’s a risk I’d prefer to avoid.
Thanks for reviving this CC. I gave up TV more than 20 years ago, and the once in a while that I do see what is on today (parents / friends, ect) I am shocked at what is shown today. Yet when I point it out, the TV owners don’t see the big deal. That I would guess, is the result of acclimation. If it creeps up on you slowly, you don’t sense the decay.
(great interpretaion of the possuk, by the way!)