Bowzer

shkoyach to Reb Shkoyach, well said.

To ModernLakewod Guy,

And anyone who thinks that is impossible in the USA!!

First of all do you kow US History? How could it be that during WW2 thousands of US Citizens were sent to internment camps for the ‘crime’ of being Japanese? This is clearly ‘not constitutional’ since NO EVIDENCE whoatsoever was ever produced against them. Just US fears that they would help their brothers the Japs. The point is habeuas corpus can be jettisoned if need be and not a peep from any of the 3 branches of Govt. to stop it.

Now you claim to be modern so maybe you are aware of this ma’aseh but you are still from lakewood so you might . Go to wiki, learn something before you just robotically, reactively deny the fact I just presented you. And please, please do not use cockamamie faulty yeshivish logic (cholila, do not get the wrong impression, there is a HUGE difference btwn Yeshivish logic and l’havdil how the Torah operates I am just sick of ocurse of just the corrupted yeshivish strain on things which assumes conclusions and convulutes evidence to achieve a priori concpetions)

Second.

Here is a little scenario that is just one of many that can happen but is more pognant since it takes on actual tactics the Sonei Yisorel, Barak Hitler Obama has used:

You might have heard of Joe the plumper.

And how the US Govt. in the person of the Sec. State of Ohio, ademocrat, you govt. computers to dig dirt and harm him. From say tax violations or what have you. it seems they found nothing since Joe is still plumping.

Well, What would happen if President Bark decided to go after a few thousand Jews tax records and for good measure – make sure they were all Jewish lookking Jews – Chasidim and/or Black Hatters. TO see if they were cheating the Motherland out of taxes owed to her and not being good guests.

What do you think he would find? Do you think they couldn’t find oh a few thousand Jews – AN EPIDEMIC!!! – who cheated the US out of taxes BIG TIME. Look, we all know the answer to this question – they COULD and WOULD find real widespread tax abuse.

With Americans already on edge about mass unemployment, loss of kife savings and massive home foreclosures, this could be the beginngin of the ‘scapegoating of the Jews’ for all of Ameirca’s problems. And once the public is with him – the sky is the limit to what he can do – just like with the Japanese of WW2.

Think this or other similar scenario’s couldn’t happen?

You are not alone. The vast Majority of European Jewry did not believe that the Nazis, ym”sh would perpetrate the atrocities the did.

Did the Jews of the Ukraine think Chnielnitzki would do what he did or that the Poles would give them up in Nemirov? nope.

DId Spanish Jewry in the GOlden Age ever dream of something as dreadful as the INquisition? No.

So do not be surprised that we do not believe that goyim could turn on us under the right circumstances in America. History has this way of never being learned from.

We should not project our hopes and logics on to the goyim’s mind. THey fail to humor us every time.

illini,

actually the comparisons to Hitler are quite valid. and should give one pause. enough pause to ensure that should it comto to it I can leave the country ina jiffy.

And no, FYI, when Bill was running (who is not much different than her) nobody was saying these kinds of things. And while I think America would potentially be much worse off with Hillary, there is nothing about her even when compbined with a serious econimc disaster that we might well face, that indicates she is a closet Hitler.

But FYI, Only a moron living in a fairy world would argue that when economic disaster stikes a country the Jews are not in danger. Even the USA was heavily anti-semtic after the Great Depression, just there weren’t to many Jews here too speak of at the time. nor a chrismatic, ovetly anti-semtic leader. Polls taken back then indicated a great hatred and suspicion of Jews.

Now maybe you are not converned about Brack’s anti-semitism cuz – well hey he hasn’t actually called for the destruction of the Jews.

Well, that is a stupit argument since duh, he is running for president and as of today anti-semitism is frowned upon in the USA and will autoamtically disqualifyu him from the office he so seeks.

So illini, DO NOT EXPECT HIM TO OVERTLY SAY ANYTHING NEG ABOUT JEWS BEFORE THE ELECTION, OK? If you wait for that you WILL BE DISSAPOINTED.

Ah, so what indications do we have of who this guy really is?

Have you eve heard of his pastor and what black liberation thelolgy – which Obama heavily subscribes to – tha is why he chose such a church= is?

It is made up a bunch of diffeent kinds of hate – one of them is directed at the Jews.

Yes, someone who subscribes to this theology is dangerous. very dangerous.

plus his documented relationships with anti-Jewish palestinians plus the excessive jubilation the arab world has at the prospect of his presidency ….

plus his promise to “talk” to someone who has pldeged to wipe Israel of the map and treat him like a respectable person (yes the McCain campaign is PC calls ot a ‘lack of Judgment’ but sheesh call obama what you want – he is not stupit. even Hillary Clinton would not do such a thing as left as she is. so it far more plausible that he knows full well what that means and is happy to confer this honor on Ahmed.)

That plus the economy going where it is going, plus the fact that he most probably will veto proof majorities in congress, plus his huge charisma.

These factors come together to make him one scary dude.

The right man at the right time in the right place.

ModernLakewood Guy:

Maybe you do not realize it but the Dems’ will most probablyhave both houses with overide proof majorities. COngress will be like putty in his hands. And if you have notnoticed this guy is very very charismatic. Before being in power. After the elections, with power to charismatize from th bully pulpit and stifle dissent (Fairness Doctrine will be just the start etc)….He will have the country eating out of the palm of his hand.

Also do you know anythign about history? You Germany was a Democratic Republic before Hitler came and basically torn the democracy to shreds with his charismatic powers and…. the help of the terrible economic situation the Germans were finding themselves in.

Hey!!! Guess what is happening now!! A severe Economic crises which will probably worsn exponentially with Obama policies of wealth redistribution.

Oh and mind you – maybe you do not know this – but I who did reiceve a TRUE Modern education at one of the best MO day schools in the country can tell you that there does exist a built in formula in the constitution to change the constitution itself.

Fundamntally. It is hard to do but a really charismatic leader in tough times could get it done.

This is w/o the fact the the judicial process itself w/o fundamental changes can be interpereted and has been, in ways never dreamed of by those who wrote the consitution – it all dpends on the person in power as a judge. And judges are people two who can be intimidated… and replaced.

b’Kitzur, you are right that under NORMAL circumstaces the American checks and balances system will work better than any other form of man-made government to date.

But only the imbecilic do nto realize that as Bob Dylan said – o the tiems they are a changin’

l’moshol from many:

why the baliout has given the gov’t unprecedented power over the banks – in fact the govt now controls the baking system – inthe hands of a Communist – this is very dangerous. Bush really saved Obama some legwork if Ob becomes prez. And of ocurse such a situation where the Federal Govt controls the banking system would have shocked anybody not too long ago.

Noch a moshol – the invasion of privacy laws that came about due to terrorism fears can be very dangerous in the hands of the wicked.

But hey, dreamland is always more pleasurable to live in than relality so go back to sleep.

Joseph – you know very well that one there is a big difference between e-mail and web sites. email is not part of the takana. I verfied this with Rav Gans shlita. Nobody should take a psak from this thought. 2. All the rabbonim who say not to use the internet only allow it’s use for parnasa and you know that, if a rav gives you a heter to eat a med that has shark cartalige in it are you than allowed to eat shark meat when ever you want? using the internet for work is a heter and you know it- who gave you a heter to use the web for non parnasa sites? At least I admitt that I am doing something wrong. I chanllange you to ask your Rav what he thinks about this web site. I know what my Rav would say. I am a doing something wrong.

My yeshiva gave anit-zionist speaches becasue the man in charge of wasting our has a very low self esteem and needs to build himself up on the backs of others. zionism is not a tayva- american culture (I did go to yeshiva in america also) is a tayva we are fighting every day. there are almost no zionist left anymore. and most of the one who are left live in the US.

Think Big- you made some very inresting and good points. Yaashar Koach!

To Joseph- you are avoiding the question. Did you Rav give you permission to get news and surf on “kosher” “filtered” sites for non parnasa reasons? I assume the answer is no. This makes us (me included hypocrites!)

To Will HIll,

These shmoozim are not given by “Rabbonim” they are given by people who are employed by yeshiva/schools to “educate” the youth. I have never heard Rav Elyashiv, Rav Gans or lhavdil Rav Wolbe zt”l give over an anti zionism shmoose, they wouldn’t waste the time of day on it. It’s the gey-chazi’s who are anways looking for a fight who like to bring up these topics. I one time asked a Rav why we have to listen to so manyof these shmoozim, he personally tols me he is against him but Rav x , (much less of a talmis chachom , but much more of a talented speaker) thinks it’s important. I am debating wrting the name of the Rav I asked. I’ll think about it.

To anon: Thank you for the compliment.

Lamed Hey: I don’t know if you wrote this as a joke, but I think there is truth to what you are saying.

part of my last post was not posted.

A while back a mother cat had kittens (5) in our yard, she disappeared and my children began fedding and playing with the kittens. Some of our neighboors were very upset about this and told us that it is asur to have tamay animals as pets. They were so bothered by the animals they drove us nuts some called my children goyim etc. It is asur to have an evil dog as a pet and a pig. They put so much pressure on us that we gave in and let the father of this family take the kittens to who knows where.

It is asur to look into someone’s yard if it disturbs them. It is not assur (I actually thought it was develpoing very good middos in my children to have rachmanus on this animals)to have kittens as pets.

this is an example of chardei culture which has nothing to do with halacha. I hear your point Pashuta- very often we confuse religion and culture. The culture of a Jew should be comming close to Hashem, which is what being a Jew is all about. The story you said about the bandana makes me very sad. Personally I don’t wear bandana’s but when I see another women wearing them I am happy. Happy because 1.she is not wearing a shatiel. 2. Happy that in the year 2008 so many years after the bais Hamikdash had been burnt and we live amoungst the goyim there are still women who cover their hair!That is a nes. It doesn’t mean that we become complacint, but it is something to celelbrate.

We msut remember the original sin of Adam was that he added to the mitzvah with out telling Chava!!!

Joseph- maybe you want to respond to my post about all of us charedim who adhear to the rabbonim who are on this web site which is keneged their pesak? Let’s admitt that we ahve a lot ot work on oursleves!

Any one who shooses to get his news here is doing so cuz he wants shmiras aynayim and to get the news from a frum ayin. So that’s a zechus to all these bloggers.

As I am following this thread, I want to call everyone’s attention to something. All of us who “fight ” against this chevera in this thread or other places. We (including MYSELF) have mentioned the we must follow the Rabonim. It just hit me- that that (including MYSELF) is very hypocritical. I don’t think any of “our” charedi rabbonim whould approve of me doing what I am doing right now on a web site that I don’t need for work!!!

So. . . I am going to try (it is addictive and intresting especially at my boring job) to break this “bad” habit and I invite all of you to join with me!

(of course I’ll have to peek back in this coffe room to find out if anyone reacted to my post. . . just once maybe)

JOseph- I don’t know pashuta, but I am charedi, very charedi and I live in a neighboorhood that is “meah shearim hakatana” (I am not the type of person you would think hangs out in “coffe rooms” aka chat rooms, what should I do If my boss doesn’t give me enough work?) but he/she (meaning pashuta) does have a point the yetzer hara is excellent at getting us sidetracked from the main point. Intresting that after boaz notices rus for her tznius he cbentches her “aynaich bsadeh” keep your eyes inthe field, stay on target, don’t get sidetracked. Similar to the bracha we bentch our children erev yom kippur, aynaich lnoach yabitu- your eyes should be forward- Look to Hashem- remember that that is what everything is about Hashem!

We want our children to be good frum adults, because we want what we know is best for them, but we often forget the direction we want to take to get there.

I am very happy youstarted this thread, I would like to returen to your original question and hear more suggestions on how to increase tznius in our communities.

I am really sorry that you are having this very unpleasant experience, perhaps you might find comfort in megilas Rus, she had a very hard time with shidduchim (and everything else too!) but through her percverience, she was zoche to become the am hamalchus and the mother of mashiach. One of the amazing things about Rus is that she had all the reasons to be “turned off” from Judaism, but she knwew what emes was and clung to Hashem and the Torah.

May Hashem help you find the right mate, bmehara and bezrat Hashem you will be zoche to build a bayis Neeman b’Yisrael.

fievel I am not arguing that one needs to know there is halacha and violation of halacha is wrong and one is accountable for all there actions. Nor do I think these seforim are outdated. However, in the use of these types of stories, they are used to scare people into doing things with out thinking and feeling, it is a short term scare tactic. WE do not know why Hashem chooses to do things in this world, we can not know if something is a punishment or a test. By claiming that certain things happen as punishment for sin X is not for us to determin. Each person does a personal cheshbon hanefesh and sometimes Rabbonim express their opnions to connect an event with instructions to be mechazek in a certain area. These types of stories which chani posted are not stories being told over by gedolim to instill yiras hachet in our hearts but rather stories being told over by people who want to be the “queen of tznius” and enjoy feeling holier than though. When I said “fear of Punishment” I was referring to these stories which evoke a “fake” sensationistic type of fear as oppsed to yiras shamyim, which means to see Hashem, to see that Hashem is always in front of me and is always with me a sees all my actions and Hashem who loves me, wants me to stay on the right path and if I stray will help me return to the right path and if I don’t get His messages, Hashem will send louder ones, which might be in the form of “punishment” and than if I still don’t get it one will pay the price in olam haba.

feivel – you are correct, and I agree with you however Rav Yisroel Salanter was a healthly and his generation were healthy people. When a person is sick, they can not undergo a standard heart operation or procedure. Our generation is a very sick one, we have to be very careful as to which meds we take! When the Rabbonim spoke in Lakewood, they don’t say over these kinds of stories, Rav Falks book on tznius doesn’t have these kinds of stories. So I might conlcude from that the perhaps my line of thought is whith in the thougth of the Rabbaonim. And I also heard this ides expressed by quite a few Rabbonim who are very invovled in chinuch.

I would like to hear your thoughts on the above.

To be pashut is good- tamim thya im Hashem. . . but your comments are anything but pashut. I am sorry everyone in this thread agrees that acid bleach screaming etc. . . is not going to bring about more tznius. I think the point of this discussion, which is an important one is to try to think of different more palitable approaches. Why do you need to mix in all this shtuyot into an important discussion. If Joseph or who ever strated this wanted to throw acid on untzinusdig women he and all the rest of us would do so, we are brainstorming and sharing ideas to work towards a common goal. If you don’t share that vision or in your neighboorhood everything is fine (please tell us where you live cuz I live ina really frum place, and I still think there are ways to go in this area) than maybe you should try a different “room”

Pashuta yid- I think you are missing an important point- the make up and perfume is between a woman and her husband- not to be worn on the street. Food for thought: At Yerushalmi weddings do you know when the kallah has her make up professionally put on? after the mitzvah tantz!

after reading all four pages at once, I have an intresting observation, what (and why) do people get all worked up about tznius? Talk about increading shabbos and kashrus, shmiras haloshon, everybody is all for it tznius people get upset. Where the yetzer hara is strongest there lies the most potential for kedusha.

Our faliure in tznius is that the main focus is on inches, whic are important, but the idea that tznius is a focus on the neshma and giving ti more importance than the guf is oftern not stated. The other factor which turns a lot of girls off is the all or nothing attitude, they are told if they violate a school tznius rule: “you are not a bas melach”. This all or nothing atitude than fosters a feeling, well if I am not a bas melach than I can wear/do what ever I want. Instead of being negitive we have to build on the posotive, when we see a girl dressed tzniusdig praise her compliment her tell her what a bas melach she looks like.

Another big mistake that parents/schools make is they focus on chumras and style and not on halacha. For example the schools get all upset if a girls wears a long long skirt- till the floor. Personally I think if its not tight its more tzanua and secondly that is not halacha! in halacha one may not wear a short skirt. a long loose fitting skirt might not be the style of a rebbitzen but it is not against halacha and there for should not be assured. When schools start adding on chumars (if you can call it that) the girls end up not keeping the halacha itself. I could give a lot of examples were schools demand the girls keep to a certain style which has no basis in halacha. I have had a lot of experience dealing with girls who have been “tramatized” by school overdoing it.

The ikar is to teach hashkafa and halacha together in home and in school. and not impose our chumras (or style) on others.