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of course…from the breeding ground for chashuvah talmidei chachamim and poskim…yeshiva world coffee room…
yes we should because it’s fun. as for the young israel system…i have been shocked both ways when walking into various young israels in the US. some are great, the rav is wonderful, has proper hashkafah, is uncompromising in his beliefs, had an excellent chinuch growing up, and really helps the community. some…the rav is beholden to the board…his psak follows his paycheck…and teh members have one foot on teh derech, one foot on a banana peel, and are slipping fast. overall though i would say that the system is great.
is the amount really relevant SJSinNYC??? (i hope this doesn’t get edited, because it makes a strong point) would you say that pornography is not that bad if only watched 5 minutes a day?
hence my post…
thank you helpful. SJSinNYC i am not married so perhaps i completely missed the boat on this one…but here’s how i understood the whole “wash his feet” thing. (yes..i may have missed the boat, if so correct me).
i had an argument once with a few goyim. they said that the fact that hassidic women are told by their husbands to not get full time jobs, but to stay home taking care of the kids and the house is subjugation and prejudice. i replied that it is NOT subjugation, or prejudice, rather it is the nature of marriage. marriage being a partnership would…by it’s nature…have 2 facets or responsibilities. 1) someone has to provide the family. 2) someone has to take care of the kids for most of the day, being mechanech them in the derech hatorah, and take care of the house. the former being the man’s job, teh latter being the woman’s job. each “partner” has separate functions but the same responsibility to the marriage.
an example. 2 guys own a brand new skyscraper. one is charged with staying within the structure handling the “books” and taking care of teh actual maintenance of the building. the other is charged with going out every day, and finding people to rent all the suites and floors to. the first one is there all day and maybe leaves for 1 hour during working hours. the second one is out all day and maybe returns one hour during working hours. is teh second one being subjugated or experiencing prejudice? of course not. similarly by marriage each spouse has their responsibility.
how does this long winded explanation have anything to do with washing feet? well, as i understand it when the posek who said that a wife must wash his husbands feet said that (it may have been the rambam but I’m just saying that because i remember reading the “feminism” thread) because at the time it may have been an agricultural society and as such the husband would come home each day with rocks in his feet, and worn feet that would need to be washed and possibly rubbed in order to allow him to work the next day. that would indeed fall under the wife’s obligations seeing as her staying home is what indeed allows him to work, she is what facilitates his work, and as such may indeed have been responsible to wash his feet in order to insure that he CAN work the next day and fulfill his part of the partnership. i would say that a wife being responsible for the household’s laundry would be the same these days.
GETTING BACK ON TOPIC.
SJSinNYC whether or not i am right in what i said above in this post, your arguments are terribly invalid, misinformed, and frankly childish. it reminds me of times when i have debated and when my opponent has clearly lost they would resort to tactics much like yours. they are ridiculous.
you want a specific case where it is necessary, but that is impossible. there is no formula. i am not a parent so i clearly cannot give you a clear example. however i would wager that if oomis gave you an example you would tell her she was wrong and proceed to suggest another method that may or may not have worked.
each case is different. i would assume that a parent makes the judgment by case where he/she knows that the only way to get the point across is by hitting the child. i would assume, oomis back me up here, that THEY DON’T LOOK IT UP IN HITTING KIDS FOR DUMMIES!!! it is an instinctive method. as for your kids resenting you…look at me. i don’t resent my grandfather who hit me. oomis never felt traumatized. I’m sure there are more examples posted here, I’m just too lazy to find them. the point is, you see that it does not traumatize you, and there is no resentment toward the parent IF DONE RIGHT!
to be honest if you are scared to hit your kid because he may resent you, whether or not you actually hit him, you need to work on yourself.
“This child had a Havdallah Service Bar Mitzvah (at the auditorium of the JCC) where he not only did the Torah reading, but conducted the entire service.”
pardon me…but what?
thank you oomis
i was once told it was hasagas gvul…because you aren’t actually stealing it, you’re just not buying it.
😀 i’ll remember that 😀 of course she may be a bit put off that i spend so much time on YW…LOL 😀
or…and this was especially prevalent during the presidency of our esteemed president William Jefferson Clinton…the definition of the word “is”
there seems to be 2 very different ideas of what is being discussed here.
beating: flying off the handle, and hitting your kid out of anger. feeling personally offended by the actions of your child and therefore you hit him. feeling like your ego is bruised because you can’t get a little kid to listen to you.
chinuch: giving a light, or not so light, but not especially hard hit on the backside or hand or even lightly on the face (note…lightly) for the SOLE PURPOSE OF CHINUCH! there is no anger whatsoever at all involved. it is done with full concern for the child, and out of love, and a will to make sure the child knows right from wrong.
for those of you who have bad experiences from your childhood, and are emotionally and possibly physically scarred from it, you were subjected to method #1. i am deeply sorry for you. your parents were indeed wrong, and i understand why that would affect your judgment. however your arguments based on that are irrelevant seeing as THAT IS NOT THE SUBJECT OF DEBATE HERE!!!
for those of you who are smiling fondly at your childhoods, and those of you who know that your parents hit you for your own good, you know what i’m talking about. you can attest to the fact that there is nothing wrong with method #2. i was brought up with method #2 and i’m fine and feel no resentment toward my grandfather who hit me. LET’S BE CLEAR HERE. THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION IS NOT METHOD #1!!! THAT IS CLEARLY ABUSE!!! WE ARE DISCUSSING METHOD #2!!!
now…let’s move on…leave the sob stories from your youth about parents who abused you out of this…we are not discussing reshaim here. we are not discussing abusive menuvalim. so please…stop using them as examples for those who arent.
i appreciate the credit for the movies, but for the dial up i deserve none 😀 I’m on dial up because the neighbour i usually share with has gone to the country for the summer 😀
Wolf: do you have a TV? do you have internet? if the answer to both is yes…well then…at least you’re consistent…the internet CAN be filtered…it can be used for shopping, it can be used for shiurim…it can be used for work…it can be used for schoolwork. true there are nisyonos involved, and great nisyonos at that! but i challenge you to find me one justification for televisions whereas i can find hundreds for internet. to give you one example…i am a graphic designer, and web designer…i’ll repeat that…web designer…i make parnassah off the internet. there is a justification. you can argue that maybe a career change is in order, but this is what i got good at. and it gives me what i need. now ask yourself…is there any such use for television? can you make a living of watching television? didn’t think so.
moreover, you are justifying use of television with use of the internet. what if i told you that suicide bombers are justified because they also rape women?
the shows you watch may not be objectionable…or they may be and you’re biased…but why not just get rid of the nisayon? why have something in your house that so easily can be used to watch objectionable content?
one button on your remote…
what to talk about on a bishow…let’s see…there’s teh weather…teh price of tea in china…teh difference in speed between grass growing and paint drying…
“I would tend to say no, because of maris ayin”
does anyone else see why this is hilarious ? 😀
surely there are other less objectionable forms of entertainment.
SJSinNYC, then you are doing it right 😀
thank you Mod 80 😀
sure. lets take the example i game in my post. your 7 year old…(I KNOW.,..your kid is 2.5) OK…even 2.5. he has just been playing with an old newspaper, and his hands are FILTHY! so of course, being a happy 2.5 year old, he runs across the house, clapping his hands with glee laughing 😀 its wonderful to see 😀 then…you see it. 5 handprints on the wall. this is the 7th time your kid has done this…and all 6 times previously you have told him not to to no avail. what now…
let’s see. you can reason with the child…HAH! yeah right there IS NO REASONING with a 2.5 year old. or…you can hang plastic sheets on your wall…yeah right…im assuming you dont live in a meatpacking plant. you can ask nicely again…but teh past 6 times it just didnt work.
now let’s analyze exactly why YOU would never do what your kid just did. what would be the consequence…you would have to live with that ugly handprint on the wall. it would bother you each and every time you saw it. you would cringe as you see that black handprint just slapped there on your beautiful sea foam green walls. it would be a blight. it would ruin the entire paint job…just that handprint. THAT is the consequence of YOUR action.
now lets look at it from your kid’s standpoint. will he have teh same consequence? will he care that there is a black handprint on your beautiful sea foam green walls? of course not! not because teh child is destructive, not because the child likes messing up your walls, but because teh child has no concept of what is wrong with what he did. you can talk…and talk…and talk…the child WILL NOT understand. YOU don’t need to be hit, because you understand cause and effect, action and consequence. your child does not. therefore…there must be a consequence so the child learns teh concept, and so he learns not to put his hand n teh wall.
i can almost picture you sitting there yelling at your screen NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT!!! NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT!!! YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND!!! but it is in no way negative reinforcement because it is done out of love. you give your kid a smack on teh bottom or the hand, it doesn’t have to be particularly hard, but the message gets across. the disappointment comes across, the desire to teach right from wrong comes across. and then you hug your child. the love for your child comes across.
if you are able to reason to your kid and actually get the results you want…then you are an anomaly. but from your previous statement it seems you cannot. A HARNESS?!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!? THAT IS BETTER FOR YOUR CHILD?!? treating a child like a dog is better? ridiculous. absolutely ridiculous. and keeping your kid in the car because you refuse to use hitting as a method of chinuch…really? REALLY?!? how will your child learn to cross a street. oh…eventually he will, but how far behind his peers?!? look at me…i am a kid. i am ADVOCATING hitting kids. not at my age obviously, but all the same. if done correctly it is one of the most effective methods of chinuch there is.
im going to stop beating on you for a second…and address something else. someone mentioned a black room where the lock their kid for 20 minutes instead of hitting them. i cried a little when i saw that. ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?!? DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW POTENTIALLY DAMAGING THAT COULD BE TO A CHILD?!? anyone who does that is crazy. you want to talk about child abuse? THAT is child abuse! giving your child a hit on the backside or teh hand is not child abuse if done out of love. it is very beneficial.
SJSinNYC. i know i will not change your mind about this issue, i doubt anyone will ever change any opinions just because some anonymous person on a forum somewhere tells them to. even if their arguments are compelling. but you should know, you are not helping your kid.
i’ll end with this. i will grant you that hitting is not to be the first second or even third option, but it must be there as a possibility. the child must know that there is always that possibility. i had this debate with someone on a different forum. your child may fear you because of that possibility, but if done right he will love you 100 times more than he fears you. the reason being because teh fear stems from love itself. if the hitting is out of love, then the fear is also out of love.
um…i may be way off here…but this thread was not started as a review of the tuvia singer site…so I’m going to respond to the OP.
setting the gospel aside…and getting back to TV. let’s set aside the issues of prizus, nivul peh, wrong hashkafah, issurei mideoraisa, and bitul torah…lets look at this from a purely practical standpoint. let’s set aside all the quibbling. whatever you’re watching on TV, you are taking time out of your day to watch whatever it is you’re watching. let’s give a conservative estimate…i would say that it is reasonable to assume that a person would watch 2 hours of TV a day at minimum. think about this…assuming you have a 9-5 job. i think that’s a reasonable assumption. so you wake up at 6:30, daven at 7:00 eat breakfast from 7:45 to 8:00-15, then travel to work. you get back from work at around 6:00-30.
now here is where it gets interesting. assuming you have a family, you have to eat dinner with them. so lets say when you get home at 6:30 your wife is preparing dinner in the kitchen. are you going to watch TV now? you have some time…will you abandon your wife for a TV when you haven’t seen each other all day? if yes, you have problems. if no…let’s move on. so you spend a half an hour to 45 minutes with your wife in the kitchen either helping her or keeping her company while she prepares dinner. it is now 7:15. your kids come down for dinner. dinner lasts for 45 minutes. OK…8:00. dinner is over. your wife is now clearing up. this process takes 15 minutes. do you leave her? or help her? leave her? you have problems…help her or keep her company? good job. let’s move on. 8:15.
now it’s about time your small children go to bed. it’s getting late…and putting them to bed is a rather long and tedious process. can’t watch TV now…time to help the kids into bed! so you move about from room to room, helping your kids change, telling them bedtime stories, singing to them, sitting with the kid who is afraid of the dark…it is now 9:15. you see what’s happening here? if yes, you’re good. if not…keep reading.
now that the younger kids are in bed, the older kids have run of the house. your 14 year old daughter is breaking her head on her historiah homework, and calls you over for help. so you sit down, and being the good father you are you help her with her homework, and ask her about her day. it is now 10:00.
you wander off to get the older kids to sleep. 10:15. the day is over, now it’s only you and your wife awake. you have to be asleep at 11:00 to be up and refreshed for the next day. 2 hours of TV? really?!? WHERE?!? notice i left learning COMPLETELY out of the equation…WHERE DO YOU FIND THE TIME?!?
let’s go from a different tack. suppose you aren’t a father, or you have only 1 low maintenance kid. i’ll explain to you my experience. i didnt have a TV for most of my childhood. but in truth, when you’re in elementary school, as a kid you have plenty of free time anyway, so watching TV is not that much of an issue. (purely from a practical standpoint, it is even worse for an elementary school student to be watching TV, i call on any Toras Emes Kaminetz students to back me up on this) then you go to highschool. regents…mishmar…homework…where do you have the time?!? you don’t. fast forward to when you leave yeshiva for good. i’m there right now.
while i was in high school, i got REALLY hooked on movies. i am a natural born multitasker, to the point that unless i am doing 3 things at once…i am genuinely bored. in 11th grade, i had 2 TeraBytes of movies stored on my computer. that’s a little more than 2000 movies. i used to watch movies when i did everything. if i was doing homework…a movie was on one of my screen. fast forward back to the present. i am now out of yeshiva. i continued watching movies just to pass the time. i didnt have a job at the time. then i got one, and still i watched movies. i never innovated, i never had a motivation to learn more about my profession, because to do that would be to take my attention off teh movie, and instead have to devote my complete attention to one thing–a book, or an adobe program.
october of this year i accepted a deal with my chavrusa where he stopped smoking and i stopped watching movies. my productivity increased, and i learned way more about my profession. i became involved in many projects, and i learned much about graphic design. fast forward to june 22. i lost my high speed internet and am now on dial up. i now know how to do flash animations. you see what i’m getting at? if yes, you’re good. if not…well…i can’t help you.
right, that was the point of my post, and SJSinNYC you would do well not to disregard it. sometimes it is necessary, sometimes it is ABSOLUTELY necessary. never out of hate, only out of love, but very necessary, and in fact extremely beneficial if done properly.
im 18 i grew up being hit as a child by my grandfather who i lived with. at the time i didn’t understand it, and i was even a little angry at him, but now looking back i realize that he did it because he loved me and he wanted me to grow up on the proper derech. i now appreciate every single blow he landed on me, and i wouldn’t trade it for anything. he made me what i am today.
but you should know. for every single slap he gave me, he game be 1000 times as much in love, affection, and attention. he taught me almost everything i know. he molded me into what i am today, and even though i lost him in 6th grade, i will always remember him fondly and with great hakaras hatov for everything he did for me. including the times he hit me.
you strike me as the liberal modern progressive type…so ill try and put this in terms you can understand. hitting a child, and loving them with all of your heart and soul are NOT mutually exclusive. one is the product of the other. my grandfather hit me because he felt an intense love toward me. how could he not hit me? how could he not make sure i understood what was right and what was wrong?
i know what youre thinking…there are other ways of dictating right and wrong, but you should know, and be honest with yourself, does sweet talking always help? is it not seen as weakness at times by children? are there not times where a child will feel rebellious? can you really reason with a small child? of course not. you can explain to teh best of your ability, but unless a parent or parental figure is love respected and yes, to a degree feared, that child will not grow up the way they should.
it may not be today, it may not be tomorrow, it may not be this year, the next year, the next ten, or even twenty, but somewhere along the line you will come o realize that truth in my words. and you will understand that love and fear are not separate emotions. you will understand that hitting a child out of love is not the same as hitting out of hatred or a feeling for revenge. you will understand the difference between hitting out of genuine concern, and hitting because your ego is bruised. in short..you will understand that as much as you as a parent has an innate desire to coddle your child, and to make sure that he never experiences any hardship in his life, that your views are unrealistic.
you say that if your child cannot understand that crossing the street is dangerous you will keep him in the car, or on a harness. are you really doing what is best for the child? be honest with yourself…if you can rectify the problem with one concerned love filled hit, are you not damaging the child by withholding that from him? your child will never learn consequences of his actions, your child will never learn cause and effect if you keep sheltering him like you are. you may want to lock him away in a little bubble and never let him go for fear that he may not be able to handle the harsh outside world, but what happens when he is twenty? what happens when he of age to get married, and he has never experienced the real world, what then?
it is you, and people like you who are damaging their children permanently, not those that hit out of love. it is you who are stunting your children’s growth, not those that hit out of love. it is you who is preventing your child from getting the proper chinuch he should get, not those that are hitting out of love. pure love is a nice ideal, and its a nice idea to never discipline your child, but without the ultimate option of that discipline, how will he ever learn? what if you talk and talk, and talk, and your words are disregarded? what then? what about when he is 7 and you tell him not to rub his filthy hands on your freshly painted walls, and he goes ahead and does it anyway, what then? what if you tell him over and over again not to and he still disregards you what then? will you ask him nicely again, and let him do what is wrong? or will you hit him out of love so that he learns what is proper? or will you tear down the walls so he no longer has the opportunity to dirty them?!?
the key here is love. a parent that truly loves their child will be able to hit them and still love them, and the child will still love them back. if the reason of for the hit is pure, and out of love and concern it will come across to the child, and not cause animosity. the child will appreciate it every single time. i know i do.
ok…so a bunch of you know me from the forum here…
need i explain why my name is bombmaniac?
THOSE humans are the third 😀
just as an aside to all those who may doubt the moderation system on this form…anyone here remember when it broke here around Purim time? enough said.
that’s OK squeak 😀 i can give you lessons, i have been blocked/banned/suspended from many a forum 🙂
Would you like to add another one to that list? ?
im not married, so im not really qualified to give definitive advice, but you people DO realize that all these anonymous methods can get you in trouble right? you cant go around threatening people, you just cant. even if its completely warranted. id suggest going over there, and in no uncertain terms, tell that manager to quit talking to your wife.
ill let you jump in and see for all of us if it is 😀
it is, i wouldnt recommend it though. its good, but not effective enough
ok..the bombmaniac is here…any questions?
i enjoy fast paced settings. i am the type of person who always needs to be doing 2 things at once. if im writing an article, working on an essay, posting a long winded drasha here, im working on at least one other thing at the same time. i like big cities, they are fast paced, and thats what i need. occasionally i like taking a break, so ill travel to a smaller city, but i always like staying in cities. idk, thats just me
no no no…for constant active and passive scanning use avast.
for weekly scans have malwarebytes installed
others cant sleep because they have no lives…the internet people *me looks around with shifty eyes* BEWARE THE INTERNET PEOPLE!
political correctness is just an excuse for people to brush off their flaws. as for the first post. why do people get defensive? because they dont want to change. they dont want to admit that they are wrong. people like laboring under the delusion that they are perfect and that everyone else around them is flawed. therefore when someone tries giving them mussar, and tries to make them realize that they are flawed just the same, they feel the need to drag someone else down with them. misery likes company.
of course, the argument that “you are flawed so dont talk about me” is completely invalid. one person’s flaws has no bearing on another’s. suppose i am a mechallel chabbos, but i never speak ill of another, and you are a medakdek in hilchos shabbos, but you run your mouth like a fire hose, i am fully qualified to give you mussar. true, i have things i have to change, but that does not change the fact that you do as well.
when debating with someone, and many times mussar turns into a debate, you are supposed to be dispassionate, and removed from th eargument. the argument is supposed to be completely abstract. specifics, and nitpicks only get in the way of the focus, and purpose of the debate. personal attacks hinder the true reason for the debate, and this is very counter-productive. none of us are perfect. everyone has to realize that, and the sooner people do, the sooner people become aware of their own flaws, the sooner they become aware that they are CAPABLE of being flawed, and the sooner they become aware that the flaws of others has no bearing on their own flaws, they will improve.
i was recently arguing with a person about one of their flaws. it did not start as an argument, but it soon progressed to one. the argument was about her tendency to dismiss people, and their ideas without considering them. almost as if they werent worthy of her attention. when i confronted her about this, she got very offended, and started attacking me and pointing out her flaws. it took half an hour, but finally i got her to realize that my flaws were irrelevant as far as her’s were concerned. in fact, for a while she actually changed. she regressed later…but that’s irrelevant. for a time she changed. because she was able to realize that she was flawed, that all of us are flawed, and that she will never change as a person if she continues to disregard the rebuke of the flawed.
we need to get over ourselves. none of us are perfect, and none of us will ever BE perfect. we all have flaws. roshei yeshivos have flaws. menahalim have flaws. gedolei hador have flaws. rabbonim, marah d’asrahs maggidei shiur, they ALL have flaws. are we not to accept their mussar because of it? of course we will accept it! then why not from our fellow man? why not from our peers? because it hurts our egos? we need to get over ourselves or we will never improve.
a lesson learned from the agri trials…dont use illegal immigrants…
62 IS NOW TAKEN! ITS GOOD TO BE BACK!
MOD: please bring sources, your argument is completely invalid and you have no right to edit posts like that if you do not bring any better sources than “seforim hakedoshim”
to the rest of you, i would bring this all down to a very basic concept. mesorah. if there is a mesorah for something, then we have a right to be someich on it. obviously, we must see where the mesorah comes from, but ultimately this all comes down to mesorah. minhagim are the same, they all come down to mesorah. all of them. do popa_bar_abba, please stop being so narrow minded, MOD, bring sources or stop censoring, and to the rest of you, do what you want, segulos wont kill you.
boot into safe mode, start>run>msconfig>startup uncheck all entries you do not recognize. be wary of long strings of numbers of gibberish.
i know this is not THE cause of people getting paid less…but it is definitely A reason. there are quite a few gazlonim out there, who feel that it is right to send their kid to camp as a camper and use youthcorp to pay for it. these gazlanim have their kids sign the youthcorp papers, having done not a single bit of work the entire summer. it is a disgusting practice, and it must be stopped! every year at the camp i work at, fewer and fewer staff members are getting youthcorp, and hate their jobs because of it. id suggest they watch rabbi shaifer’s shmuz “its not geneiva, its shtick”
i was once driving back from coney island beach and i hit avenue N and git stuck behind a double parked car…i was like “yeah, im back” lol
fascinating mod-42…really…ive heard of self promoting, but this is ridiculous…i have better things to do on chol hamoed than read two forum threads 😀
whoa…whoa…whoa…i know you all like feivish…but I am the ONLY BOMB AROUND HERE! lol
i cant say i have been divorced seeing as i was never married, but i can identify. i usually eat alone on shabbos and yomim tovim. and its ok…but its not the same. if you can get invited over to someone’s house for the sedarim at least, then do it. find someone you are comfortable with, and go there. i would not recommend having the seder alone.
the “etzem” of pesach is not “v’inisem es nafshosechem”. you just cant have chametz…i fail to see why having a pizza like product on pesach, or pasta made from eggs and potato starch, or rolls made from whatever…ruins the etzem of pesach…can someone try and explain that? as for shabbos lights…that is completely different. while we hold that you can indeed use them, i can understand the arguments. you are not allowed to turn a light on on shabbos. a timer would ruin the spirit of that. that i can understand. however, nowhere does it say “you may not eat pizza or pasta”. you just cannot eat chametz, and therefore any way of making food similar to its chametzdige counterpart is absolutely acceptable. it used to be people only ate boiled chicken potatos and matzah on pesach…be thankful we now have more of a variety.
while on the subject of supposed excuses…do you sell your chametz on pesach? i rest my case.
oomis…don’t i know know that feeling 😀 actually some employers don’t mind if you chat online in between your responsibilities, as long as said chatting does not get in the way of you performing your job properly. i dont know how you would find that out, but you should to avoid any problems.
i fail to see the problem with dressing well…if dressing well means buying a brooks brothers shirt, then buy it, if you can afford it. the only thing i can think of that people may have a problem with, is when the people who DO dress well look down upon those that do not or cannot dress as well as them. that is disgusting. I’ll grant you that. however saying that no one should ever wear an article of clothing just because it has a logo that marks it as an above average priced item, is being petulant and jealous and has to realize that not everyone can have everything. there are people in this world that can afford more expensive items, and there are those that cannot. i fail to see why one should be influenced by the other. for those of you who are reading this and shaking your heads in disgust, ill repeat what i said above. if you are doing it because you simply enjoy dressing well, then go for it. however if you are doing it so that you can safely look down upon, and sneer at those not as privileged as you are, then you are disgusting. however pertaining to the former, to all those that cannot afford to buy what they have, be happy with what you have. don’t feel a need to have what they have, you are fine as you are. don’t go around being jealous of what others have that you cannot.
*hands the CR a raisin and a peanut*
angryjewboy…
essentially there were several completely unsavory words used, which in no way furthered the presentation of his ideas, and he said some rather offensive ideas, which again, in no way helped portray any idea
yes but i think if we want to keep this system there should be way more moderators
yes in a week where we saw this forum descend into chaos, personal insults, and unfortunately, vulgarities, it is refreshing to see this 😀 if only everyone on the internet were like this 😀