bombmaniac

why is this an issue…its about the soldiers, not the state…stay on topic, or have it locked, this is very annoying as it is absolutely irrelevant.

indeed squeak, indeed

I find it funny that the person who started this thread decided to be makpid on writing “whom” rather than “who” and yet ended the sentence with a preposition…

this thread is so off topic…the tefilla is in no way an endorsement of the state. so please…don’t make it seem that it is.

so youre saying that just because we havent been praying for as many people as we should be we shouldnt pray for anyone? i see…interesting…

@myfriend. yes, because i have who to be somech on

did you bring it to the tech just to get hebrew inhstalled? and did you bring it to TD just to get hebrew? or was it for something else..you said it was for teh OS change. of course they arent charging for hebrew…theyre already charging for the OS…if it was just for hebrew im sure TD would charge

there is a difference between accepting the responsibility ro keep all mitzvos to the best of your knowledge, and accepting the responsibility to keep the mitzvos to the best of your convenience

i live in teh heart of boro park, so no worries there…but if im walking in the street, to avoid problems…well, anyone who knows me knows im fairly large…im 6’4 300 pounds…no ones messing with me 😀

the point of my post is that it is NOT worth innocent lives for a useless system. it may be morally acceptable for murderers to be killed, but is it morally acceptable for innocents to be killed?

what i said about juries was not supposed to be an indication as to my stand on civic responsibility, it was simply saying that 12 unqualified people are fed a bunch of twisted facts by 2 highly trained shysters and told to deliberate a case and come up with a verdict. the system is clearly flawed. now…its true the torah allows for a death penalty, however nowhere does it require one to my knowledge, unless it is in a beis din operating in the times of the Sanhedrin.

your bloodlust and desire for revenge is comletely invalid grounds for the potential of innocent lives to be ended at the hands of an invalid system. all other punishments, if meted out without just cause can be rectified in one way or another. wrongful imprisonment and fines can be repaid monetarily, and while there are definitely things lost that can never be recovered, efforts can be made to rectify the wrongdoing sufficiently. from death however, there is no recovery.

now if we were dealing with a country that had not a single jew in it nor had the possibility of ever having jews in it, i would indeed support the death penalty for that country. let the goyim do what they want to each other. however when it comes to jewish lives i cannot abide by such a “justice” system.

interesting…so the murder of innocent people is not against your morals…maybe we should get cynical in here so he can tell us if conservative has anything about that…

the people of a democratic country dictate its policy. it is one thing to falsely IMPRISON someone it is another to falsely EXECUTE them. you have to understand that while i am well aware of teh fact that we do not have our own independent jewish justice system in this country, and therefore we must rely on the secular courts to maintain law and order.

this does NOT mean that we should throw away all morality! a trial by jury is nothing more than a popularity contest. think about, you drag 12 people who were too dumb to get out of jury duty in the first place out of their la Z boys to sit and watch professional practitioners of the law parade in front of them smiling and trying to win them over. that is not justice it is mob rule. now…its true its what we have, but should we not try to keep it within reasonable boundaries?

as i said above, the people of a democracy define its laws, the more people are against the death penalty the more likely it is for states to abolish it. as for your ridiculous statement of “Our only job in this world is to do what G-d wants. G-d wants us to run our courts in a certain way, and for the goyim to run their courts in a certain way. The results are G-d’s job. (He does a good job.)” i say thats fine for god, but what about YOU?!?

who is to say that we are not upset of a jewish murderer is killed? first of all one is not chayav misa if tehy kill goyim, second of all before you trot out dina d’malchusa dina let me remind you that dina d’malchusa can be changed by popular sentiment in this country.

lock them up in jail for 25 years…go ahead, but dont kill them. it is not worth the lives of the few for the lives of the many. and for those that are guilty? as you said god will sort it out for himself!

by the way just to address the ridiculous argument of deterrant, first of all, do youi really thing the killer is in the proper frame of mind for that? lets analyze this:

1) a professional killer does not care about that. he is fully aware and money means more to him

2) a man who walks in on his wife cheating and blows his wife and the milkman away. is he really in the frame of mind?

3) a thug, or someone with a grudge who benefits nothing but the satisfaction of the death. do you really thing he will be sitting there pondering the pros and cons of either punishment? “hmm..maybe i shouldnt kill him, theyll kill me after 20 years of appeals and lots of red tape…whats that you say? the death penalty is abolished and teh penalty now is only 25 years to life in prison with no possibility of parole? shoot, NOW i’ll do it!” think about…its absolutely ridiculous. the death penalty for murder was never a deterrent, it was revenge and as i said, revenge is fine for the guilty but what about the innocents who have been killed?

hamodia, mispacha (which has really gotten good recently), but most importantly…ZMAN MAGAZINE!!!! they are by far the most well written, well researched, highest quality jewish publication on the market today! it is the only magazine i read cover to cover!

you can buy the Adobe coursebooks…6those are pretty good

control panel> (in windows 7) change keyboards or other input methods (in other versions) regional and language settings> keyboards and languages tab> change keyboards> add> scroll down to and selct hebrew from the list. click the little + to the left of the list item and check the “hebrew” entry. click OK.

in word, if you want to change to hebrew entry simultaneously push the left alt key and the left shift key.

you can also use the on screen keyboard (vista and 7) for help mapping where the keys are.

“My solution for most stains is Oxi Clean. If Oxi won’t get the stain out then nothing will.”

wow…billy mays really worked a number on you didn’t he…

by the way, for grape juice stains all you have to do is pour boiling water over the stain…it will come right out

let me summarize all jewish novels…man has simple job and learns in kolel at night. man gets involved in national intrigue involving the FBI CIA GSS KGB FSB SAS MI6 MI5 ASIS CSIS NSA Mossad DOD DGSE AIS and about 20 other intelligence agencies. man somehow magically knows launch codes for nuclear ICBMs. man is conflicted. rosh yeshiva arrives in the last minute. rosh yeshiva knows everything magically and tells kolel guy what to do. somehoe rosh yeshiva was privy to classified information that the president himself wasn’t privy to. crisis averted. THE END. now go to the brooklyn public library for some real literature.

i cant be bothered to read the whole thread…but here are my thoughts. i used to be a proponent of the death penalty…to the point where when martin grossman was up for his sentence i was one of the people shouting “kill the murderer”. when i told that to my charusa he set me straight, and i have been opposed ever since.

first of all, there is not a single court in the world that conducts itself according to halacha.

second of all if there were such courts (such as batei dinim which i was not referring to with the above statement) they would be following halacha b7y NOT carrying out death sentences b’zmanenu.

the majority of courts in the world accept circumstantial evidence, some more than others.

trial by one judge and no jury is vaday wrong.

trial by jury is meaningless. a jury trial is nothing more than winning an election. it is a popularity contest. if you can get the jury to like you enough, you win regardless of the culpability of your client, or lack thereof. that is NOT justice.

there is no way to GUARANTEE that the person is actually guilty seeing as circumstantial evidence is accepted and most witnesses in murder trials are bought in to build up a case, not testify to the actual murder. regardless of that according to halacha you have to have eidim, hasraah and intense drisha v’chakirah.

the world’s justice systems have in the past killed many innocent people. as long as there is another alternative, IE jail, it is wrong to sacrifice a few innocents for the guilty masses. on this point someone told me “lets kill them and let god sort it out” i said, “thats fine for god, but what about you”?

deterrent is irrelevant so i will not address it. this is not an issue of goyim vs jews, in terms of what non jewish society should allow, because death penalties in the entire world are each potential pikuach nefesh cases waiting to happen.

can someone edit that HTML in th OP please? as someone who designs websites it offends me…

of course…because grape juice is a completely modern invention…please think before you post.

and your credentials above my rav are?

i once had a shaila about this, i asked my rav…

there was this girl i was talking to who happened to drop that she was jewish. i thought she wasnt, so i asked her about it. she said that her father was jewish and her mother was catholic. i told her that her mother had to be jewish for her to be jewish. she said that her mother had converted via conservative judaism, but had since recanted on that. my rav said that the conversion in the first place was invalid because they do not follow all the halachos of gerus, and because they do not accept all the mitzvos of the torah upon conversion.

so there’s that for what it’s worth…

i went to Chofetz Chaim. wait…that’s not negative…

probably because it tastes good and is cheap to make