Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
ZionGate –
You’re correct that private planes have a more frequent rate than commercial, but you’re not correct that they happen “quite frequently.”You’re also incorrect that they’re underreported (at least to any significant degree). Not sure how you think anyone would avoid reporting an accident like that. Airplane mechanics document everything, and significant I jury or death is obviously documented.
More importantly, the vast majority of the accidents are due to errors (either during flight or preflight) that are somewhat negligent. What that means is that if something c”v does happen, it’s usually the fault of the pilot. That’s unlike driving a car where a person can be a very safe driver, but is often at the mercy of another irresponsible driver. That doesn’t happen often in the air.
I don’t think theres a mitzva “to listen to the CDC.” The CDC isn’t the end-all-be-all. We need to take the warning seriously, but tbh if any company is willing to come out and risk a lawsuit by saying people should eat their product and NOT worry about the CDC warning, that gives a certain amount of weight to their statement as well.
yitzchokm –
I didn’t have a chance to go through the whole thread yesterday, but I just noticed your post, and I find it a bit unsettling, mostly because I think you’re not the only one who thinks this way. So help me understand your position.You wrote “parents can definitely do their job and spank their kids once in awhile.”
Do you mean that it is the job of parents to spank their children? That they are not doing their job if they don’t spank their children? I find it hard to believe that people seriously can think this. By that reasoning, must you hit in a certain way also? With a specific type of device? On the hands? Backside? Is there a certain frequency with which you have to hit your children? Like if you think it’s mandatory, then which parts are mandatory? Does it depend on the nature of the child or on the parent at all?
Again, don’t misunderstand me. I’m not some liberal who thinks you have to let kids control everything. And my father hit me, but I decided along with my wife not to do it with my children.
BTW, you also said “The reality is that the US Supreme Court ruled that Public Schools can engage in corporal punishment.” Whatever you think of parents hitting, do you really think it’s a good idea for schools to? Forget the law for a second. I mean do you think it’s a good thing to allow?
I’m looking for a real answer, not to stir up anything.
אמן.
Happy birthday!
A couple of things. First, my wife and I do not spank our kids or use physical punishment of any kind. Most mechanchim I’ve spoken with are very much against it for today’s dor.
My father did spank me, though not too frequently (maybe a handful). IMO, it hurt my relationship with my father for a long time, though I only realized that as an adult. I know he meant well and it wasn’t anything near what I would consider abusive, but I think it distanced us from each other a lot. Having said that, I think it does depend very much on how it’s done (the manner in which it’s done, until what age, etc). I was threatened with it as late as about 12, but I think he last did it when I was 10ish, which is probably too old no matter what.
So to sum up, I think it’s possible to spank your child in a productive way, but it’s very hard, and IMO not worth the chance of messing things up these days. Also, I think anyone besides a parent doing it is off the table completely. No way a non-parent these days can build up a healthy relationship with a kid and show love in such a way that makes physical punishment a clear act of tough love.
Do u have an accurate standalone oven thermometer? oven thermostats are notoriously inaccurate
I didnt know Dennis checks out the Coffee Room. Looking forward to hearing you comment on this topic on your radio show today.
I happen to be a big fan of Dennis Prager politically. I think he knows his stuff and knows how to make a point without too much emotion getting in the way of the truth. I highly recommend his videos on Israel. I have seen his videos on the Ten Commandments and they are very good and got me to think a lot. I would assume they are abridged versions of what his book is. That said, I would like to note that without the proper guidance from a reliable Torah authority (preferably years of shimush or closeness with a Rebbi), these videos can present a danger. While the content doesn’t have anything too far out, the very concept that in order to follow Torah, it must also be logical and acceptable to the modern secular thought process is dangerous. I don’t think that that is the point Dennis is necessarily making in those videos but you can come away with that feeling.
I have also heard Dennis say things about “ultra-Orthodox” Jews in general that were somewhat disappointing to me. I don’t think he meant the comments as an indictment against all frum people but it came across in a way that was somewhat distasteful.
There is also another person (who is a younger colleague of Dennis) named Ben Shapiro. He is MO and has put out a free eBook called “How Leftism Violates All 10 Commandments”. It is also not an authoritative Torah-based book but it is also interesting and it is worth seeking out Ben Shapiro’s content on politics. Really bright buy who is also frum.
zahavasdad
No, that is not the issue. That is a hypothetical case and there is definitely an argument to be made from a frum perspective that one should not bake such a cake.
The issue is whether you feel that the government has the right to compel you to serve someone. It doesn’t matter if either you or the government can prove that your particular religion allows or disallows something. That’s not the business of the government. My answer is that no, the government should not be able to compel you to do something simply because it conforms to their definition of morality. That is the essence of the freedom to practice religion.
And nobody has the right to be served. The only time anyone had the right to be served was during slavery. And anyone who is against the Indiana RFRA would tell you that slavery was wrong (as would I).
“Yup. It got rid of the “No Jews or Dogs” signs. It got rid of most of the Judenrein housing developments. It got rid of the Jewish quotas in colleges. It got rid of most of the Judenrein law firms.
Yup. It went too far.”
First, you missed my point. I didn’t say that there was nothing good in the Civil Rights act. I said it went too far.
More importantly, yes I think that putting a sign that says “No Jews or Dogs” is disgusting. I also think that the Westboro Baptist Church coming to Brooklyn and protesting Jews is disgusting. The point is that government should not have the right to compel anyone to say or not say something or to engage in business or not engage in business with anyone just because the government, or even the majority of people, find the practice objectionable. I don’t like the No Jews or Dogs sign, but if a proprietor wants to have such a sign, t should be protected speech. The entire reason we have the First Amendment is to protect unpopular speech or expression. By your logic, a yeshiva should be compelled to host a same-gender wedding.
The Civil Rights Act should have been limited to making it illegal for a government entity to enact laws that directly restrict the rights of minorities. Where I think it went too far is where it compels individuals to not be discriminatory. We all know it’s nasty and disgusting to be discriminatory. That happens to be one of the prices of freedom: people will misuse it.
In addition, of all people who should get this concept, I think minorities like Jews and blacks and gays should get it most. It was not long ago when laws were used to compel each of these groups to do things that they found objectionable simply because they weren’t conforming to what was considered the accepted norm (Blue Laws, Jim Crow and slavery, mandatory chemical treatment, respectively).
Again, does it happen to work to my personal benefit that people can’t refuse service to me because I am Jewish? Sure. But that is a temporary advantage that is outweighed by the long-term effects of such a law. That is why I do not support the compulsion of anyone to do business with anyone whom they do not wish to enter into business with. So if a golf club wants to put up a “No Jews or Dogs sign”, I will find it disgusting. I will NOT demand that the government compel that proprietor to take down the sign. Not only would taking down the sign not help me (the proprietor would still hate my guts and I wouldn’t really want to be using the business anyway), but it would violate the proprietor’s freedoms and that makes the day that my freedoms are violated much closer.
I’ll admit I haven’t read every single post here. But from the ones I have read, I am quite surprised that the basic ideas are being missed. First, the Civil Rights act notwithstanding, you should be able to enter into a business deal of any kind with whomever you wish and not enter into any business deal you do not wish to enter into. This is why the Civil Rights act, in my opinion went too far. Instead of making it illegal for the government to impose laws that are discriminatory (such as Jim Crow), it went a step further and said that individual citizens are not allowed to discriminate. While I agree that citizens SHOULD NOT discriminate, I also believe that the first amendment gives people the right to discriminate if they wish. The problems with enacting any law that forces you to do business with someone are not limited to the immediate effects of what amounts to involuntary servitude. The slippery slope has now enabled this law to be applied to any supposedly protected class.
In addition to the problems this type of enactment causes within U.S. civil law, let’s address the issues in Halacha. I am by no means a halachic authority and I would struggle to give mareh mikomos, but as a relatively ehrliche yid, my perception of halacha includes the idea of chillul Hashem. It is wrong for any yid to do something that gives the impression of impropriety since this constitutes a desecration of Hashem’s name. Note that the standard by which chillul Hashem is judged has nothing to do with whether gentiles will make fun of us or be dissatisfied with us (although sometimes those are measures as well). The real standard by which chillul Hashem must be judged is whether we are giving those around us an accurate representation of how Hashem wants us to live as yidden. Now, suppose a yid bakes a cake for a same-gender wedding and people at that wedding ask who baked the cake and the answer is “Moishe”, some who hear that may think that Moishe is in favor of this marriage. This type of thing happens subconsciously, by the way, anytime you go to a sporting event or see an advertisement. That’s part of the reason that companies are often pressured to remove their advertising from objectionable venues. Otherwise they are perceived to be supporting the venue ideologically. Sometimes the perceived support is a good thing for the venue and sometimes it is the opposite.
The point here is that there are reasons that a religious person would not want to be involved in certain transactions that may not be obvious to those who do not hold those religious convictions. And that is a valid point to consider. What is even more valid by U.S. Constitutional standards and what should be obvious especially to those supporting the rights of homosexuals and other minorities is that it is a bad thing when government compels anyone to do anything they do not want to do so long as there is not a good public interest reason to do so.
How soon before the government makes it illegal to operate a yeshiva or wedding hall that does not want to host a same-gender wedding?
There is a story which can be found in the book “Dear Son” by Rabbi Goldschmidt (which is an excellent and very practical book, BTW). I will summarize it here but it is worth reading first hand in the book itself. A man once came to speak to the author about his failing marriage and to discuss the prospect of divorce. Rabbi Goldschmidt asked him if there are children involved and was told there were. Rabbi Goldschmidt then said that there is no option of divorce where children are involved and that more work needs to be done to better the marriage. The man protested and said that “listen, it’s better for the kids to not see the fighting. They will end up having two homes. two birthday parties, two chanukahs, two everything. it isn’t pleasant but better than the status quot”. Rabbi Goldschmidt brought him a used gemara and explained that children doodle in their gemaros sometimes and that doodling can really reveal a lot about what the child is thinking. The man accepted this notion and Rabbi Goldschmidt showed him the gemara which had some scribbling in it. One of these lines said “one home plus one home equals no home”. The gemara had belonged to a child of divorce and the words expressed his pain and confusion. The man was shocked and went home to talk to his wife. they did not get divorced and ended up working things out and having a beautiful marriage.
I am not saying what your specific case involves, but it is worth noting that children who come from divorced homes generally carry a tremendous pain. Unless one of the parents is being abusive or has severe emotional or psychiatric issues, divorce is a cruel torture for the children that is done out of one or both parents not willing to do what is necessary to work on the marriage. The work is VERY HARD, but necessary and worthwhile when considering the alternative. Please take this into consideration.
to really smile – my point was that yes, I understand what he was doing on the computer. even those actions are not NECESSARILY an addiction. sometimes (and i mean that. it’s not all the time) women (not you, eclipse) do not understand their husbands’ needs in those areas or aren’t interested. I just feel that words like addiction, OCD, etc. are thrown around way way too much by nonprofessionals. your husband admittedly has an addiction. My point was to clarify to the rest of the room that it isn’t always an addiction.
to really smile – When a man looks at another woman, it is not necessarily (and I would say it usually is not) because of addiction. Men are built like that. That’s why min HaTorah, you can marry more than one girl. Please use the word addiction carefully. There are ppl with real addictions out there and some who just have a normal yetzer hara.
cshapiro – come on. you’re obviously not one of the most yeshivish people out there (I don’t mean that in any kind of negative way, but it’s not like one date is a breach of tznius for you. If I am wrong, I apologize). So you go out and after 2 hours you say you’re really tired and can we go home. It’s not worth it to make yourself look bad by backing out now.
cshapiro – i am sorry to say that unless you are genuinely worried that he will do something hurtful to you on the date, just go out and deal with it for 3 hours. Yeah, it stinks (and I mean that), but I think you gotta swallow it.
oomis – that’s fine. my words are not only directed at you. there is a certain mentality on the world that there are signals and red flags. While I agree that occasionally a guy or girl will do something that IS a red flag, I feel that dating is not just some game. It is about building a relationship and relationship building includes taking even an offensive thing and working with it. I don’t like blanket statements and “rules” about what is tolerable or not. It is unfair to everyone involved. Unfortunately, there are many singles today who don’t get married because they are picky about things that, on the surface, sound reasonable. Similarly, there are married people who get into problems because they have not learned how to voice disapproval constructively. MOST things that bother a person on a date are not worth breaking up with the person for without giving it a chance. And I sincerely mean it when I say I am sure your husband is a tzaddik. However, if he is, I bet if you ask him, he can come up with many instances where he was not as thoughtful as he could be. That said, he is still a tzaddik and if he did do something you thought was inconsiderate I am sure you would at least speak to him about it saying “You know, you have always been such an amazing, loving husband. This thing you did was so uncharacteristic of you. I was wondering why you did it that way”. That’s what I am saying should be done even in dating. you are going out with someone who you have hopefully checked into and found out wonderful info about. He has treated you nicely in every other way and been eidel and respectful. Why would you jump to conclusions about him because of one act or lack thereof? Earlier you called such a person a jerk. Why?
aries – When I said anything about texting after the first date, I meant like at least a month into the relationship. Yes, it can be overused, but an occasional text “Make sure to bring your camera for our date tonight” while the girl is known to be at work, I don’t really see anything wrong with it if you are both OK with it. Obviously, this does not apply for the yeshivish 5-7 dates till engagement crowd. And I have texted the girl after calling and getting no answer asking if it was a good time to call (again, later in the dating process). Also, I wouldn’t just jump to the conclusion that the guy was dating 2 girls. There could be many reasons. Not saying the stuff he did was right, but I wouldn’t just go that far right away.
bpt – and I am telling you that it is accepted practice for the girl to give her cell number to the shadchan to give to the guy. True, the guy should not be texting her before a first date. but the number is something that usually the guy receives if he intends to call her (which he obviously did here with her consent).
bpt – i agree that texting is inappropriate (at least at this very very early stage), but today most people who call the girl will call on her cell.
oomis – thank you for finally addressing the points. When you read this post, I would like you to keep in mind that I do walk the girl to the door so I am not defending MYSELF in any way. I am simply trying to figure out why you are so vehement about the issue. 1) I noticed you are a proponent of communication. So again I ask why this issue of walking to the door does not fit your bill of something to be discussed (considering that based on what a significant number of people feel, it may not be appreciated or even appropriate. I know you don’t agree but some people – girls – feel that way). Why do you think that your opinion is the only one worth anything? (This is why I said you sound bigoted). 2) The belch thing was meant as a crude example of something that is accepted by a group of people as common courtesy but quite the opposite by others. I doubt that any marriage is made or broken by the act of someone holding open a door or walking the girl to the door (I am assuming that just about everything else about the guy is good. My attack on your theory was based on the feeling I got that you would say to dump a guy based on this act alone. If I was in error, I apologize). 3) If I am wrong on this, I apologize again, but regardless of your natural tendency to defend your husband, I do not believe that there is a person on this planet that hasn’t done SOMETHING inconsiderate in 34 years at least in a small way. GEDOLIM felt at times that on their level they were being inconsiderate. I am not C”V implying that your husband is an inconsiderate person, but when a man and woman come together for the first time in each of their lives they are bound to overlook some needs of the other person since the ideas are foreign to them at first. It takes many years to perfect your being attuned to your spouse. 4) My personal things to look for in a girl are 1)kind 2) flexible 3)can we disagree respectfully with each other 4)can she bring up her concerns about me in a gentle, considerate manner and 5) can she accept my concerns about her and either point out to me why i am in error or agree to work on her growth. I don’t think learned is such a a biggie (when looking at a guy, i mean) since some people will understand that to have to do with smartness. I don’t think that is a very crucial thing to look for as a general thing in a relationship (some people need it, but it’s not a good example of a general concern). I don’t have any real objections to the other things you listed but I noticed that walking to the door wasn’t in your top ten. If you will include it in the first thing you listed, I refer you to my earlier comments about consensus and communication.
oomis – you just can’t answer my questions, right?
popa – Sorry for not realizing. I have a hard time keeping up with posters’ opinions especially on this thread 😉 As I said, blanket statements are hard for me to ignore.
bpt – I think the question was meant to compare 2 similarly intense things. Of course the emotional pain of losing a dime is not something more difficult than becoming a paraplegic, c”v. Severe emotional pain such as one that comes from, lo aleinu, the loss of a child or something like that also can’t be compared to the physical pain of a paper cut, but some may take losing a limb over losing a child.
popa – or maybe, as some have said on this board, tznius. or a variety of other reasons. I hate blanket statements. k’mo shepartzufeihen einun shavos, kach dei’oseihen einun shavos.
tbt – I understand. I was making a point and used your comment as a springboard. 😉
smartcookie – I was referring to the subconscious psychology behind it. It is a way of releasing stress, but also it causes a physical pain. It doesn’t take away the emotional pain but it is distracting for a few seconds and that is ONE reason people do it.
tbt – because dating shouldn’t be about points. it should be about building a relationship. Yes, sometimes someone does too many repulsive things so you can justify saying “I would rather not be in a relationship with the person”, but at the end of the day, most people don’t fall into such a category.
tbt – it’s the same reason, you bang your head or punch a wall when you’re angry (not you, necessarily, but just stereotypically). You try to take your mind off the emotional pain by distracting yourself with physical pain.
obviously neither but emotional is far worse.
oomis – i don’t think we are disagreeing that both the guy and girl should be nice and courteous. we are disagreeing as to what qualifies as nice and courteous. Why should a girl not be able to say that she DOESN’T appreciate the walk? To classify any one of those girls as “probably such and such a type” is very unfair and judgmental. That is gaavah! What about people (far and middle eastern) who’s custom it is to belch as a compliment to the chef. Yeah, I think it’s gross, but if the guy is otherwise a nice guy, why would you use one (obviously, from this thread) debatable thing to castigate him so fast.
And please don’t bring raayos of courtesy from married people. Married people have to treat each other differently than dating people are allowed to in many instances (not saying that this one is, but it seems some people feel that way). And even if you are right (and I don’t think you are) that walking to the door is common courtesy, at the very least this board has proven that there may be sufficient doubt in the guy’s mind as to what the girl will consider appropriate or appreciated. Considering that, to use this “lack of courtesy” as a basis for labeling the guy a jerk is bigoted and unfair.
Has your husband ever done anything that was discourteous? What was your reaction to it? Why can’t you have a similar reaction to a date? Why just jump to conclusions. Maybe talk about it. I know I have spoken to girls about things they did that I was concerned about (Tznius, for example. I was told by my very frum rosh yeshiva that although tznius is extremely important, you must investigate and see why she isn’t up to the standards you expect. Of course within reason so, no, miniskirts and tank-tops are not OK).
And finally, please address my curious question (This is my third invocation, and your ignoring it means that you either don’t have a good answer or you are ignoring me which is discourteous 😉 ): What are the top 5 things that you think are important to look for in a guy you are dating? And, once again, be specific please. None of “He should be a mentsch” since that is too broad. If you want to make it 10 things so you have more to work with, that’s fine.
cshapiro – I didn’t say no girls like it. I said that most of the girls I have asked said they prefer not to. Also, there are a number of reasons I don’t like it. 1) I am very comfortable in person when I can see how the person feels about what I am saying but not on the phone. I need to know the person at least a little to feel comfortable on the phone so I don’t think you are getting an accurate feel of who I am on the phone. 2) I think you should get the entire picture of the person instead of just hearing them. Someone may say something that sounds weird or may turn you off on the phone (but in person you may be able to see the person’s facial expressions when they said it and realize that it was an innocuous statement) and then you have a bad impression of them. 3) OK. This one is something that I know guys would probably understand but not necessarily girls. A person may have an unattractive voice and then you go in with negative feelings. 4) a person may sound great on the phone and then your expectations are high but when you get on the date its a big drop off because of how they look, how they are dressed, what their smile looks like, etc… I think it’s better to get the full picture all at once. for the same reason, by the way, I am against looking at pictures before the date. you don’t get the whole person.
and oomis, 34 years of marriage (BA”H) would put you at least in your 50s. I would like to point out that there are things which were done in the times you were dating that were considered the regular thing to do but today are not. For example (and one of my mother’s friends and a number of other people flipped out almost angrily when they heard this), it is not considered so common to call the girl before the first date today. I have asked many of the girls I dated if they prefer to get a call (just my own personal census taking) and almost all have said they would not. They say it’s uncomfortable and are perfectly happy to just go on the date. People from your generation are mortified by this sometimes. This could be a generational thing and perhaps you should ask (at least 30) girls you know (who aren’t in your immediate family) who are in the parsha to tell you what they prefer in terms of chivalry so you can get an idea of what is expected today.
oomis – this thread has shown that it is not COMMON courtesy since it seems there are quite a few girls who dislike it. saying thank you after a date IS common courtesy. No, it doesn’t stick in my craw so much to do it, but it sticks in my craw when it seems like that’s a huge factor. It shouldn’t be. If your husband were exactly the same as he is but didn’t open the door for you, I am sure you would still have a happy marriage. and you didn’t answer my questions. 1) Why can’t she bring up an issue bothering her? I think to dump him based on this factor alone would be ridiculous. 2)list the 5 most important things to look for in a guy while dating. and again, be specific.
oomis – lack of mentschlichkeit can provide for a bad date, not horror. My mother went out with someone who made her take the train home. that’s a horror. frightening. She also went out with someone who ate his entire meal before her’s even came out and then wanted to leave before she had a chance to eat. that is stupid, bulvanish, ill-mannered and a person who should not be getting married yet, but also, not a horror. There is nothing horrifying about it. At the worst, she had to grab a bite of food from her fridge when she got home. Do I feel bad that she had to spend time with that ogre? yes. but nothing frightful happened. Why use over-the-top words to describe things like not holding a car door open? Just curious, oomis: about how old are you? 30s? 40s? etc.
dunno – that’s what I was saying.
eclipse – I am not sure what rudeness you refer to. Do you have specific examples?
truth be told – I agree with you 100% (and yes, I have had the opportunity, b”H) but the most important line you said was the last one.
eclipse – just to play devil’s advocate here. How a guy acts on a date should be judged separately from how he is judged regarding his approach to the shidduch process since the latter may be his reaction to the way the system is set up. When you are given a list of 20 names in 2 weeks while you are dating someone else and you are 22, it can be hard to not try and look for the best one at least on paper. I am not saying it’s right, but it is somewhat natural. Similar to the fact that it is improper to dump a girl after one date simply because she is 10 pounds heavier than your ideal. It is not right, but it is very hard to avoid that if you know there are 20 prettier girls around the corner. This is one of the reasons I think the mother should be dealing with the shidduchim and giving her son one name at a time.
oomis – once again, you are flipping out about something that is chivalrous (by definition – something a knight would do – lifnim mishuras hadin) and you are not even giving the girl the right to decide if she appreciates it. I am sure the girl was asking if he was a stalker as a joke. Stop with the rules. Why can’t dating be 2 people who just want to try to be themselves, develop a relationship and not be looking to follow every rule about dating? I guarantee that half the rules go out the window when they’re married anyway (which may or may not be ok. I don’t think it’s mandatory for a husband to open the car door for his wife). these chivalrous acts are not prerequisites for being a decent human being. And may I ask, what would you do if your husband acted immaturely or not nice or not chivalrous? divorce him for being a bulvan?! Or maybe (and I know this sounds crazy) TALK ABOUT IT WITH HIM! Be a mature adult and realize that even if he does something horrible like drip mustard on his tie (never happened to me personally but I realize it may b a turnoff), he may still be a good person who wants to grow and will treat his wife like a wonderful aishes chayil provided that she clue him into the fact that she appreciates certain things. Maybe he is ignorant of the walk to the door! Is that so terrible? Many guys are ignorant of many things before their Chosson Shmooze and the first few months of marriage. And guess what?! so are girls!! It’s not like the fact that he didn’t walk you to the door is an indicator that he is abusive or anything close to that. As we have seen on this board there are many reasons he may not walk her to the door. Most of them have nothing to do with him being selfish or uncaring. I would love to know what your top 5 important things are to look for when dating a guy, oomis. And be specific, please. Don’t tell me “that he should be a mentsch”, because that is a broad statement that has many possible meanings.
eclipse, let’s not start with guy bashing. not every girl i went out with was an angel and I have to say that I think I gave every girl at least a fair shot and tried to make it work. I treat everyone with respect. I was on a date with a girl who was obviously annoyed at the idea of being on a date with me for some reason. I am a pretty good conversationalist and I tried so hard to get her to have a convo with me but she barely looked at me gave me these one word type of answers which indicated strongly that she had no interest. I tried to keep it going for almost 3 hours. It was one of the worst dates I had. Come on! be a big girl for a couple of hours and just treat the person at least like you would treat a friend even if you aren’t interested!
mosherose – I am wondering how you plan on building your bayis without chemistry. Hameivin Yavin!
i think his point was that of course he won’t ask. and just so you know, When I started dating, for tznius reasons I didn’t walk the girl to the door (my rebbi told me not to and he got tremendous feedback from some mothers of girls who’s daughters went out with guys in the yeshiva that it should be done, so he gave in) and I never “checked out” anyone. I even looked at my steering wheel and monitored the girl’s progress up the stairs out of my peripheral vision and then checked to see when she got inside.
iyhbyu – bravo!
oomis – like i said, I walk the girl to the door but I don’t think it is boorish not to. I am sure there are some guys who don’t do it because they are boors. However, if the guy was told by a rebbi to not do it since it is a tznius issue (whether you, the posek hador, oomis1105, disagrees or not), the guy is not being boorish by not doing it. I am sure it makes the girl feel good to be walked to the door. And what if it makes her feel good to get a good-night kiss? should he do that? after all, most people in the world (goyim, but the walking to the door is also something that started with them; most likely in the hopes of kissing the girl good night at the door or being invited in for a cup of coffee) think a good night kiss is very chivalrous. I understand that you don’t want to back down on this one but there are numerous things that a girl or guy PREFERS on a date which, in their absence, don’t qualify the offender as a boor. Again, why not wait and be a mentsch yourself by asking him politely on a 3rd or 4th date why he didn’t do it? After all, when you get married, whether you are a guy or girl, there will be times your spouse will displease you in ways far more offensive than not walking to the door (I repeat, making sure she is safely inside is MANDATORY because of safety). How will you handle these offenses then? better learn how to have a conversation now.
Also, to all those that say it is more awkward to know the guy is watching every step to the house, I hear you. Everyone feels different about it and I think the right thing to do is (assuming no other mitigating circumstances exist), do what you think will make the other person feel good.
I always give it a second date unless I am turned off. Meaning that if I am just not attracted, I still try to say yes. I only say no about looks when I feel like there is an issue that sticks out as being unattractive.
mw13 – sorry, I am not such a tzaddik that I can justify allowing a person to be severely injured for my so called frumkeit. I think it would be a shtus to not save her. Also, I want to say that (without getting into particulars) I was on a date where I had to touch for a safety issue. The girl felt very awkward to say the least. I felt horrible that I made her feel that way and apologized profusely to the point of pretty much crying. However – and I told her this – I didn’t regret it one bit and I would have done it again. I even told my rebbi about it the next day.
edited
dunno – I agree. it should. what I was saying is that if the person had a reason of tznius, and what he did do would be considered fine in a non date situation, it really shouldn’t be that big of a deal. And even if the tznius was not a factor, since it would be acceptable in another situation other than dating, it should be given a conversation to talk about why she felt bothered and allow him to explain.
mw13 – I believe it absolutely is a chossid shoiteh. There is risk of serious injury here and there would be no chibah involved. One final thing: In the second or 2 that it takes for her to fall, he may be so caught up in trying to be careful about negiah that he may not have enough time to allow his intellect to kick in and save her. Doesn’t make it right, but I think I could understand it unless he justifies it afterward with the excuse of negiah.
edited
oomis – mw13 pretty much summed up what i was going to say. At the most, not walking a girl to the door is a violation of not subscribing to a chivalrous idea. It is not boorish in any way. lack of chivalry is not boorish. I think the distinction would be what you would do for anyone else who is not a date. Would you drop off a friend and just watch from the car to make sure he/she got in? I think most people would say yes. Again, we’re not talking about waiting for her heels to hit the curb and then zoom off. The reason you should bring it up and allow him to explain (if it bothers you so much) is that he may have a valid reason like tznius (which you may not like or agree with but it is a reason that certainly takes him out of the category of someone who will treat you poorly after marriage based on how he treats you now). Also, if you can’t bring up issues that bother you and give him a chance to talk it out, how are you expecting to deal with it after marriage?