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da’as: yes, i know the reason that the boys don’t go to shadchanim. i was just pointing out that it’s no proof one way or another when one says that the shadchanim have lists of girls, but not boys.
also, i was under the impression that it’s certain shadchanim, representing certain cities, such as LA who visit the Meir graduates. (i don’t know if they go to other yeshivas). since certain cities have their own professional shadchans, these shadchans are looking out for their girls.
zeeskite – the mods play around with the subtitles to be funny. you may not like their sense of humor; though, that would not necessarily be a reason to leave. (a person can leave for any reason, but that the mods have a poor sense of a humor is a funny reason to leave.)
and even eclipse, who was extremely popular here, when she talked about leaving, there were people who were somewhat nasty to her. and look at pba – ever popular, but he’s gotten some VERY nasty comments. Even Mordechai Hatzaddik didn’t have complete popularity.
so if you enjoy being here, just keep posting – everyone who wants to be here is important to the CR, and I really am being extremely sincere.
Welcome back, Zeeskite!
the typical, average guy does not go to shadchanim; however, practically every single girl does. Obviously, shadchanim will have much more girls than boys.
What if, there was some sort of universal, computerized way to have every single frum boy and girl, that “no single Jew will be left behind”?
i wasn’t agreeing to the population numbers – i have no idea, but suspect that it’s fairly equal. i was just agreeing that many of the problems are man-made problems, though i do not believe that there are simple solutions. i do believe that there may be solutions, if people would address the true problems.
agree.
i think snowy’s problem is a VERY typical problem, and one that causes a lot of wasted time, and then spirals into other problems if a person doesn’t find their shidduch within about 2 years from when they officially started being in the parsha.
okay. maybe not. 🙂
snowy – right. that’s the ugly duckling syndrome; there are working guys out there, but your family doesn’t know how to find them. There are also all types of working guys: yeshivishe working guys (they work, but still would want to live in Lakewood and send kids to yeshivishe schools, etc., out-of-town working guys: who generally are planning to work and be kovea ittim – there are certain yeshivas who have a number of guys like that – classic example is ner Yisrael. and then there are YU guys, and even there the field is diverse, such as black hat YU guys, black knitted kippas YU guys, and regular knitted kippas (sorry, I hate defining people by what they wear on their head, but ’tis simpler). All of them may have different ideologies and different thoughts on how they would want to raise their families, send their kids to school, etc.
I think it would be important for you to clarify for yourself exactly (or as much as you can) what you would like in terms of hashkafa and personality, and then do research as to where you would most likely find that type of person.
Then tell EVERYONE you meet in DETAILS, what you are looking for.
I told this modern orthodox girl, PhD student of Columbia University, who just 2 seconds before was making fun of black hats, exactly what I was looking for, including the black hat, and she said, “Oh, I know exactly who you are looking for”. it’s a whole crazy story of how she knew him and knew all these details about him, which I am not going to go into, but she described completely what I wanted.
Also, if you have any ways of getting to know people/shadchanim in Queens, Baltimore, Chicago, etc. where there tend to be more of the type you’re looking for, very wise to do so. Good luck in your hishtadlus and may Hashem help you find what you are looking for very soon.
pacman: sorry for the delay – wanted to think first.
first of all, daas yochid is exactly right on WHY I wanted a guy very serious about his learning and who would learn for a good part of his day.
I agree with you that for that alone, it would not matter the level of the guy’s learning, except for the fact that presumably someone who is good at learning would have more of a desire to immerse himself in learning and to continue to do so.
The bottom line of why it was so important to me that he be capable of learning in the way I described is quite simple and not so profound and may not even be recommendable, but it’s the truth. All girls need to be able to respect their husbands. For me, although I can respect many different people as people, one of the main things that I needed in order to respect my husband was his ability to learn. I don’t know why. This is still the case even after I’m married. The only thing I can answer about the fact that true he is not my chavrusah, but a guy who spends a good deal of his day learning will be talking in learning, even to his wife (his insights, his divrei torah, his thoughts).
Furthermore, I feel that my husband’s learning is MY learning. I enjoy the way he talks and thinks in spiritual matters and his divrei torah and his insights that he has in his learning (not just gemarah, but also his understanding of the maharal, mussar sefarim, even the parsha).
sorry, if I can’t clarify my reasoning enough, because the real reason is just that I need it because I need it.
anybody can write
edited
even me
maybe
one of my posts didn’t go through yet – i don’t know if it was because it was too long or just missed, so i’ll try to shorten it.
here’s the edited version.
Ok. Dr. Pepper, if I understand correctly – it seems to me that you’re saying if guys (and girls) are not wasting their time going out with people that are clearly a waste of time for them, they then can spend more time going out with what they really want and can sooner get married. The sooner they get married, the less possible age-related effect can occur. I agree.
From a psychological standpoint, i also agree with you. In psychology, there are various stages as most of you well know, such as trust vs. mistrust, etc. If a person goes through that stage without gaining what they were supposed to, they still can go back and fix the issue – but it will be much, much harder.
So too, does it seem like this process occurs with shidduchim. i don’t know the exact age range, but it seems that boys and girls in their early 20’s are at the developmental level to get married – to become a one, instead of just a two. Even though it still is difficult, it seems that it is easier to do the process at the right time. If for various reasons, the shidduch did not occur until a later point, it seems like it is much more difficult for both parties. (I know that there are environmental factors that take part also, but i think that those are generally more often the excuse, rather than the cause in and of itself.)
So, in short, I agree that getting people married off sooner, rather than later, is crucial for the most part. (There will always be exceptions).
one more problem:
the black sheep/ white swan problem:
when family is all one type, and child is of different type. same problem with the island. people of same types tend to live near each other and socialize with each other, and don’t know how to find and where to look for those of other types. (if they even admit that their child is different from them – if not, that’s another problem. by the time they realize and/or reconcile themselves to the fact that their child is different, child is already older and problem is further complicated.
ofcourse – you’re right, but still there are many that are out there and should have been found, but haven’t been yet by the right girl.
quick, call zeeskite – i think she’s still not happy with her subtitle! Does anyone know how to wake her up?
pacman: off-topic, but what exactly is the question:
is it?
1) if i wanted a working guy, why did he need to be able to learn?
2) if i wanted a learning guy, why would i want that?
3) since i’m not going to be his chavrusa anyways, what does it matter how well or not well he learns?
other problems are that the boy and/or girl are not ready at the proper stage: they should not be forced to go out; that just prolongs the problem and doesn’t allow the solution to evolve. Parents need to be aware of these problems, and do whatever they can to prevent them and try to help them, when the problem occurs.
(i can get into these problems also, but i think i’ve written more than my allotted time and space.
What can we do to get people to find their shidduchim quicker?
1. get rid of incompetent shadchanim
i agree, but that is certainly not the only problem. (as virtually everyone i know met their bashert not through a professional shadchan).
other problems:
1) finding all the boys and girls who are available. as many posters said, a guy in yeshiva has an easier time generally than a guy working. I don’t believe for a second that it’s because girls don’t want a working guy – many still do.
let’s go back to Dr. Pepper’s island analogy.
What if on this island there were a few big huts with tons of males, and other individual males were all over the island, like on some tree or in some little cave somewhere. A girl who wants to get married would be wise to look into the huts where there are 100’s of boys – thus those boys generally get found right away, and the boys all over will only be found by the ones who accidentally and/or the right shadchan matches them up.
the girls, because they have no hut to belong to are much harder to find. If their father, (even if he does not have money), is friends with some of the hut leaders or works in a hut himself, he can look around more easily and find the boy that’s right for his daughter. an unknown girl coming to the hut may not be able to easily get a guy to go out with him, because all the girls are going to the hut, so he is overwhelmed with all of the possibilities.
furthermore, some parents of the girls don’t know anything about shidduchim and are waiting for people to find their daughters – they don’t realize that it may be “easier” if they would actually go look at the huts, forge the proper contacts so the boys would pay attention, and learn how to successfully search and find the right boy for their daughter.
So, some of the problems are:
1. hard to find the working boys
2. hard to find the girls, unless they go and have connections with yeshivos. (a wealthy girl is worth a hut of her own, and boys do circle around such a hut, as they would like a hut of their own).
3. shadchanim will generally do creaming – getting the easy girls married off, not paying attention to girls who have more unique need, and then we have Dr. Pepper’s problem – the next batch of girls come, and the story repeats itself, exasperating the problem with each new batch of girls.
Ok. Dr. Pepper, if I understand correctly – it seems to me that you’re saying if guys (and girls) are not wasting their time going out with people that are clearly a waste of time for them, they then can spend more time going out with what they really want and can sooner get married. The sooner they get married, the less possible age-related effect can occur.
From a psychological standpoint, i also agree with you. This is my own opinion, based on my own observations of tons of older and not older singles. In psychology, there are various stages as most of you well know, such as trust vs. mistrust, etc. If a person goes through that stage without gaining what they were supposed to, they still can go back and fix the issue – but it will be much, much harder. can even think of it in terms of one’s physical development. there seems to be a certain stage where a kid will learn how how to walk or crawl. at that stage, it is relatively easy for them to learn, or rather, they don’t seem to mind at all the work involved in that activity. they fall down, they laugh, pick themselves up, and start again. However, if for some reason a kid had to be in bed during that whole time or was forced to not develop at the right time, and then try to start walking at an older age, it is much, much more difficult and painful. Similarly, a kid generally enjoys the process of learning to read at around 5 or 6 – they don’t mind sounding out the words. it gives them great pleasure to read, even though they are laboriously sounding out the words, and if they go at their own rate (without undue pressure), they will read and read to themselves. If a kid would start much later – past the developmental stage, (ex. learning to read a second language), the process is much more laborious and not enjoyable – it seems like psychologically, they are past that developmental stage and have no interest in going back to it.
So too, does it seem like this process occurs with shidduchim. i don’t know the exact age range, but it seems that boys and girls in their early 20’s are at the developmental level to get married – to become a one, instead of just a two. Even though it still is difficult, it seems that it is easier to do the process at the right time. If for various reasons, the shidduch did not occur until a later point, it seems like it is much more difficult for both parties. (I know that there are environmental factors that take part also, but i think that those are generally more often the excuse, rather than the cause in and of itself.
So, in short, I agree that getting people married off sooner, rather than later, is crucial for the most part. (There will always be exceptions).
of course – it can be very difficult to say no to a shadchan. i once did research about a guy suggested. i said no because my i found out that he was not able to learn on the level i needed my husband to be on. i refused to give a reason, because i knew the shadchan would just argue with me. the shadchan did research, found out who i spoke to, what they said, and told me that nobody can know how well someone else learns.
Anyways, i felt forced to go out with the guy – easier than arguing forever. i could tell that the guy did not know how to learn just by talking to him on our date.
(and for those who say that if a girl who doesn’t learn can’t know if a guy can or can’t – you’re wrong. there’s a certain amount of intelligence and logic that a person needs to be able to learn in a “lomdishe” way, and although being single, i didn’t know that term, i knew what i needed).
that is insane!
but why on earth did the girl fly to that city????
sounds like you’re talking about totally revamping the system. People are giving money for every crazy idea, why can’t people figure out what really would help to get many more singles married off?!?
sorry, re-thought about what you wrote and realized that my comment about the island is irrelevant to the point you were making. my island point is only for those who insist that they will solve the shidduch crisis if a guy would only go out with girls who are within a certain age range.
veteran: lol!
about the don’t stalk – i once had a shadchan who knew a boy who flew to my city to go out with me. she wanted to figure out who he was dating. since she suspected it was me, she called me up to find out if i was busy (claiming she had someone for me).
after we broke up, she never called back with her idea. it was all a ruse so she can know who is going out with whom.
and the don’t lie statement: i agree 100 percent.
Dr. Pepper – thanks for responding. i agree with almost everything you wrote, especially about the shadchanim. the same pressure to go out and to go out again when it is not appropriate, and the lies, are told to the girls’ side also. Not only does it keep the boys and girls busy with dates not appropriate for them, it can cause them to get depressed and/or burnt out and not date effectively, which is not good for anyone.
my only comment about the island situation is that in “real life”, people do get divorced, widowed, come in from other islands, swim to other islands, change what they’re looking for, etc.
but your point about licensed shadchanim is excellent.
as a rule: whenever people say, “but no offense”, they are offending someone.
this is a singles SUPPORT group, so i think that in this case, if people do not have something supportive to say, they should not post here, and if they insist on criticizing the singles, they should do so on another thread. (maybe the unsupportive single group thread).
health, if the guy 20 years older than the girl is what the girl is looking for and they can have the relationship that the 2 of them want, then there is no problem.
Mazal Tov!!!!!!
for a short time, mod. 80 had yochie as a subtitle. i guess one advantage of being a mod. is that you can change your own subtitle.
zeeskite – maybe you ought to send in your resume. seems like that’s the only sure way of getting your subtitle changed to something you want. 🙂
wow!
Bimheira v’yameinu!
but on an individual basis, it might or might not be.
exactly. so you, your rav, and everyone in the cr will in the end be hopefully looking for the zivug that is best for your child, irrespective of whether the age-difference is 6 months or 4 years.
i just saw that on another thread.
zeeskite – i think your nightmare has occurred.
Mod. 80 – who changed your subtitle?!?
any time. 🙂
…but why is there so much popcorn?
dunno – i know it’s very hard, and until you’re married everyone will tell you why you’re not married.
i think the 2 hardest parts of being single is
1) not knowing when this nisayon will end
2) feeling like people think that there is something wrong with you or that your thoughts are not as valuable as a married person’s are.
but, truly, you can do some amazing things while you’re single – if you can channel your energy, you can really develop yourself now, make great contacts, and do a lot of chessed.
Good luck in using this time for good things. It’s a challenge, but if Hashem put you in it, it means that you can do it.
Now, is a great opportunity to get to know yourself and your strengths well.
My sister who got married at 19, and who is now married for many years feels like she didn’t have the chance that others who married later did to develop herself spiritually and emotionally. it can be done, but it’s harder to do in marriage in some ways.
zeeskite – i think one mod really likes you a lot, and this is their way of showing it – think of all the attention you’re getting.
what 9 year old doesn’t like attention? 😉
actually, i think you have the record for most changed subtitles in the shortest amount of time.?
Mazel Tov! I am soooooo happy for you!
May you be zoche to build a bayis ne’eman b’yisrael.
dr. pepper – you’re right that it’s not gonna change anything, but we’d like to hear your opinion also.
veteran -ha ha
sorry guys – no girl will go for polygamy. marriage is hard enough with one husband and one wife.
i agree with squeak 100%. people see a problem and think they know the causes, and no one can argue with them. if they do, people accuse them of not caring.
problem is there, but if don’t know the true causes, can’t possibly know the solution.
if this is the true one and only answer, why aren’t the Lakewood rabbeim insisting that guys only date girls within a certain age range? the answer is because it’s ludicrous. must look for one’s zivug, not a number!
but, again, kol hakavod for caring – and for trying to set older girls up!
oh. so this is what happened? no way is she Joseph. only thing they have in common is being good with computers and quoting Rabbi Miller.
zeeskite hates controversy and Joseph loves it.
i think it can get boring to be a mod. if you look through the archives, the same issues come up again and again. it’s kind of like your bug spray – the issues – shidduchim, off the derech kids, off the derech cars… can’t seem to stay dead for longer than 3 months. so only thing mods can do to make their job interesting is to play around with the subtitles.
what you need to do is to post something so outrageous that they’ll change your subtitle to something else – but then again you may not like that subtitle.
or.. maybe make a new thread for all those people who don’t like their subtitles and want them changed.
just for the record, i am positive that you are not eclipse. 🙂
pba – i completely agree, but was always too scared to say anything on this site – seems like it is so not pc to think this way.
maybe i’m wrong, but it sounds to me that a lot of you are looking at the yam suf and saying that it’s impossible for it to split, and the case is hopeless.
all i’m saying is don’t worry how the water will split, just go into the water. Hashem said, he’ll take care of us, so he will.
Yes, set people up – try to help them find their true zivuggim, but don’t worry about all the details – do what’s right for the right reason, and Hashem will take care of the rest.
Da’as Yachid – every single zivug is absolutely truly a nes. i don’t know how anyone can get married at all if they’re not relying on a nes. start asking people how they met and decided to marry. it is absolutely unbelievable the nissim that Hashem performs. My story is so remarkable that if I would tell it anyone who has heard of me would know who i am. but, truly, every story i have heard of is amazing. (just sometimes the nissim are obvious and sometimes they appear more “natural”).
look, all i’m saying is that the problem has so many variables; a number of people have listed some of them. there are many more. to solve the problem, we need to create emotionally healthy children and have emotionally healthy parents who know how to and want to look for what is truly best for the child.
az, to me it’s obvious, of course a girl can date a guy around her age, and of course if it’s appropriate the shadchanim should set them up.
i just don’t believe that the age difference is the sole cause or even the main cause of all the unmarried singles. i do believe it’s a great idea to encourage people to think about the older singles, and to think out of the box for what they really are looking for.
my grandmother was older than my grandfather and lived for about a year after he died.
i dated a while ago, but in my experience, once girls were about 24, 25 and certainly close to 30, guys had no problem dating someone a drop older than them. i know of so many couples where the girl is older; they don’t take an ad out of the newspaper, but it has always happened. if you’re creating an awareness for guys who have never considered the possibility, then great.
but, if you are saying that since anyone can marry anyone, let’s set up younger guys with older girls, then I strongly disagree.
a rebbetzin once told me that girls can marry tons of different guys.
Fortunately, i spoke to rabeeinm and a rebetzin who knew me well and agreed with me that that is not the case for me.
Unfortunately, this rebetzin’s daughter took her mother’s advice. She got married at 19 and was divorced with 2 kids a few years later.
the point is not to just get people married off, but to get them happily married off.
(though the more divorces there are, will help your case even more).
…some are thin and some are fat. the fat one has a yellow hat
(ah, now i know who one of the mods are. 🙂
… not one of them is like another…
work on one single at a time: find out if they’re ready to get married, what they’re looking for, and help them find their proper match. keep doing this – this is hishtadlus. don’t worry about the math – that’s krias yam suf – that’s Hashem’s department. keep davening for the singles and keep setting them up with appropriate matches.
(and raise children who are emotionally healthy who desire and know how to establish relationships and know how to build a bayis neeman b’yisrael).
for any singles out there reading this thread: relax. daven. do your hishtadlus and work on your bitachon. Hashem will help you! Ignore all these doomsayers.