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I would refine slightly the defintion – it is experiencing the reality of your relationship with HKB”H without any Hester, but you feel it relative to what your relationship could have potentially been.
So according to this “realization of your relationship with Hashem”, would you say that you receive reward/punishment relative to each individual mitzvah/aveirah, or is there a specific point on the scale which is your relationship with Hashem (mitzvos push you up the scale, aveiros push you down), and their is no “itemized” accounting?
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@DY: You said that nowadays we aren’t Mechallel Shabbos to heat water. I asked if we pasken that ?????? ???? are doicheh shabbos or not.
You also said that it is still assur midrabanan. On that I asked why we don’t say ???? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????, which will make it muttar midrabanan as well.
(I think Halevi posed similar questions on Yekkes original post a couple of pages back. I searched a bit on Hebrewbooks, and a couple of sources discuss similar problems with this Shaagas Aryeh, but most of them argue, they don’t answer.)
I am also firm believer of accepting the Chumras other people have, whether I want to keep them myself or not, and whether they are socially accepted in my circles or not. However, it is sometimes difficult to see the logic in certain chumras.
DaasYochid – You are definitely right. Whether or not this is the Belz reason for the ban, the R Vosner zt”l clearly writes against women driving out of tznius concerns.
But the OP has some interesting points, and certainly isn’t the first to voice these questions. What about women driving is less tznius than a women in the passenger seat?
We don’t say ?????
And do we pasken that ?????? ???? is doicheh shabbos?
@Torah613: You may not see a difference in “who controls the marriage”, but you probably don’t have the same sense of freedom that a woman who drives has! Again, this does not have to reflect on the marriage itself; it is a sense of how much you are independent of your driving spouse.
@bigben2- I definitely don’t support the ideology. But what upsets me more is when people are forced to take on (if they drive, their kids are kicked out of yeshiva)- very strict laws, and told that that’s what being Jewish is about, it’s all in order to be a good Jew, it’s halacha. Not necessarily…
I would compare this to a school in London, whose official government criteria includes all mothers dressing in accordance to Oz Vehadar Levusha. The school has the right not to accept any student whose mother doesn’t dress according to the school standard.
This isn’t “forcing people” to be more machmir than Halachah. This isn’t blackmailing people into chumras they aren’t willing to take on.
This is a school deciding on a certain standard of frumkeit – a standard which may be higher than the norm, and may be more than strictly required lehalachah. But the school is entitled to set a standard. If you don’t want to be on the same standard as the rest of the school, feel free to send your son elsewhere. But other children have a right to be educated together with friends who were raised in an environment similar to their own (at least from a Torahdike perspective).
Nobody is ostracizing any woman who drives. This is a simple rule – “Do Not Drive Your Son To School”. Nobody is even threatening to kick out kids from the school, contrary to the overmagnified press reports. “Turn away at the gates” doesn’t mean expel. If you don’t feel ready to accept the “chumra”, please feel free to ask your own Rav and do your own thing. But don’t do it in our school.
Parshas Shelach Lecha
The ???? says: ????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? – Why does the ???? feel it necessary to tell us that the Bnei Yisroel were in the ?????
The ???? ????? brings from the ???? ???? that the ???? in ??? ??? says the ???? and ?????? ???? are ???? ???. The ???? ???? asks: Based on the ???? of ????? (Like :????? ??, where it says that because one is allowed to cook for guests on ??? ???, one is allowed to cook extras even if there are no guests, and he will eat it ????), one should be allowed to be ????? ???? since it could be required for ?????
(??? in ????? asks why anything is ???? on ??? – say that ????? that it is ???? for a ???? ??? ?? ???? say that it is ???? always, and ??? answers that a ???? is not ????. However, the ?? ????? ?? says that ???? is called ????)
To answer this, the ???? says ????? ??? ????? ????? –> In the ????, the ??? ????? didn’t do ???? (See ????? ?? and ??? ??????? ??) because there was no ??? ??????. {Even though apparently ??? ??? did do ????, it could still be that it was not yet called ????}
(This could also be why the story of the ????? is brought after the ?????? – the reason there was no ??? ?????? was because of the ??? ???????; see :??? ??????? ??.)
–Yekke2
Something doesn’t add up there. According to the Shaagas Aryeh, now that Milah is commonplace, am I allowed to transgress anything that would be permitted for Milah?
If the issue is not leaving the house, then why driving? Why not say they can’t use a car service, or a bus? Or just say women shouldn’t leave the house?
Be realistic. The aim is not to disable women from leaving the house. The aim is to take away the luxury of driving. Ask anybody who drives who suddenly lost his car for two weeks. Obviously, you can still get lifts, take taxis or use the bus. But that is all inconvenient. You aren’t your own boss. It definitely limits leaving the house to necessities rather than luxuries.
The question is simply whether the advantages are outweighed by the dangers of such travel (see OP).
@itssme: You have put together a couple of fairly logical arguments against a pretty illogical public statement, and as a result jumped to your own conclusions.
You can’t do that. Feel free to argue with their logic. Feel free to suggest your own reasons to ban ladies driving. But don’t suggest your own reasons and argue with them!
Secondly, if you do think that is the reason, surely you have more to complain about than misrepresentation of the ban to the press? Do you not have a mouthful to complain about domineering husbands controlling their wives and taking away the freedom? You sound like you support the ideology, but don’t like the fact that they disguised it from the public.
So is a table really a cow?
@miritchka: The fact that your daughter needed medical care doesn’t extend to ‘almost every student’. There may be many cases of therapy that the average bystander has no idea about, but that certainly doesn’t mean ‘almost every student’ requires therapy.
I was slightly confused by your post. Is your point connected to the original discussion? Are you saying that seeing a therapist of any sort causes extra attention from the school staff? Or were you pointing our [as it seems from your most recent post] that too many parents are trying to arrange free services they are not entitled too? Does the fact that they are getting free services cause their children to receive unwarranted attention? Please clarify.
“almost every student has issues of some sort that requires therapy or other aid that requires more attention than the average student “
I don’t think that is true.
@Loibud: Being pedantic again? I meant Parents/Teachers evenings. My point was that while the teacher will notice the childs success, the teacher will still feel no necessity to give the child special attention.
ElizabethTower2 – Really?
Similar discussion: click here
Do you really feel you have a gift in understanding R’ Chaim’s chiddushim? That’s fascinating. Is this gift meyuchad to R’ Chaim or does it extend to clarity in the other achronim as well? Is it only on Chiddushei R’ Chaim HaLevi or does it work with other Kesovim?
I’ve never heard of such a thing before!
I often find that teachers in general give special attention to:
(a) A child who misbehaves (both as a result of attention deficit or plain mischief)
(b) A child who is either more advanced or significantly less advanced than the average in the classroom. Those advanced are often offered the opportunity to develop their talent further, while those struggling are given the help to catch up.
The average, well behaved straight A student is not looked at. Sure, the teacher notices you. Sure, the teacher will give a raving report at the PTA. But you don’t get any attention.
And kids need attention. Warmth is a vital part of a childs maturing, and being noticed is the first step to any of that.
It makes a difference later in life as well. When you enter the Real World, and suddenly have personal/spiritual problems, you haven noone to turn to. There is no-one you can trust, who knows you and you know them, who is equipped. If every child was given the ability to develop a relationship with mentors during the period in school/seminary/yeshiva, they would have someone sound to approach.