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silly question. zionism is already over having been replaced with the state of israel. further, while satmar certainly is centralized around the torah given at sinai, it has also adopted into its practice many new practices some of them the reforms of the chassidis movement and some of the reforms truly their own and have made these reforms part of their core beliefs. While satmar’s reforms as we know it today may not have a long future as all reforms (frankists, shabbtians, etc.) eventually die away, its core, which is judiasm, will remain forever.
isnt it crazy what happens when you combine the yiddishe kup with a real education?
?????????? ??? ?????????? ????? ?????????? ???????????, ????? ????????? ?????????? ??????????? ??????????? ????????????? ?????? ??????????? ??????; ????? ????????? ??????–????????? ????????? ??? ?????? ???????, ????? ?????? ???????. ????? ??? ????????? ??????????; ??????? ????????, ???????? ????????? ????????????????? ???????. ????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ????????, ?????? ?????????????
lets stop this nonsense already. There are kosher songs and not kosher songs. just like you wouldnt sit around and speak all sorts of neeble peh you should watch what you listen to. songs with jewish themes, all the better. but the idea that the music itself can be jewish or not jewish is complete nonsense which really needs to stop. all (and i do mean all) music that you listen to today is built upon music that preceded it. there are obvious signs like the way mbd ripped off the ghangis khan song from eurovision for his song yidden but other times the signs are more subtle. either way there is no such thing as music which is jewish and which is not.
who you respect or dont says little about the person being respected and much about the one doing the respecting (or not). see, eg yaakov avinu vis a vis yosef in vaychi or moshe vis a vis yitro.
there is a real thorough analysis by the star k about coffee from not kosher establishments. i dont know if this link is allowed but ill give it a shot: http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-thirst-coffee.htm
Mm: if I understand the argument I read correctly it’s the idea that there was no gzeira against doing something that gives praise to HaShem and brings you closer which is accomplished through Jewish lyric songs. But some extend it even to stam music because being besimcheh is also a mitzve but that’s kind of like swallowing the the rule through the exception.
style123, much has been written and said about this topic by people here and teachers and rebbes alike.
Here is what I know to be true: 1) there was a gezira against listening to any live music after churbun habayis which may no longer apply today especially with jewish lyric songs. 2) songs with lyrics which are provocative or immoral are obviously wrong to listen to just like any other provocative or immoral speech. would you sit with a friend and use bad language and talk about lowlife activities? no! so why listen to it on the radio? 3) finally, putting lyrics aside, there is NO SUCH THING as music which is Jewish and music which is not Jewish. ALL music. Ever. In the history of mankind. always. was based on all the music that existed prior to that time and which influenced the artist. There is literally not a single song you have every heard in your life which was not influenced by nonjewish music. reversed: every song you have ever heard was influenced by nonjewish music. Every Jewish song you have ever heard was either a direct rip off of not jewish music (like avraham fried and mordechai ben david) or was heavily influenced by not jewish music like chazzunus. so if you hold the churban ban no longer applies and the lyrics are not trief and you find beauty in the song it is my humble opinion that you have an obligation to listen to it – jewish or not – and that depriving yourself of such music makes you a lesser human being.
?????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????
its probably just an expression meant to drive your point home. not literal. many writers and speakers and their “fall back expressions.” this just may be r’ yoichinen’s.
haleivi: i’m not sure i follow you. rishonim have often dismissed explanations brought down in the gemarah or mishna as non-pshat. the only rishon i can think of who tries to force pshat into every opinion of the tanayim and amorayim is rashi. so they dont necessarily take on chazal they simply relegate divrei chazal as non-pshat.
as a total aside, there is a very good reason to attempt a rational explanation when possible and its right here in this week’s parsheh:
? ?????????????, ???????????–???? ???? ??????????? ????????????, ???????? ?????????: ?????? ???????????, ??? ????-????????? ????????, ????????? ??? ???-????? ????????, ??????? ????????? ??????
the rambam looks to these words as a driving force to not give explanations that rational people will look at and say “what a small and ignorant people these people are.”
A great deal about pba’s posts has now been clarified. (and i think its DE so you may not be able to have it together with dairy brownies if you follow the rama).
the idea that the jewish way is blind dates being set up by the mothers of the single people after reviewing resumes (ugh) and going through a paid broker who works on commissions is ludicrous. there is NOTHING jewish about the shidduch system and quite frankly it makes the heimishe community look a little retarded.
the current system is a loser on all fronts and the only thing going for it is that it is so inept it is destined, within a short period of time, to collapse upon itself.
give me a break. national democracy is a tool those in power use to convince the masses that somehow they matter. the masses dont matter. there is no difference whether obama or mccain or anyone else is president, your life would be almost exactly the same. the national government will always, more or less, be run the same way. go live your life and stop wasting your time listening to talk radio.
when you learn neviyim or ksuvim, according to our yeshivos.
does anyone really believe that if an ashkenazi jew accepts all kulos and chumros of the beis yoisef or if a sefaradic jew accepts all kulos and chumors of the ramuh, he will be punished by hashem or he will be considered a choyteh is gods eyes?
something we learned only a few days ago seems on point:
,????? ???? ????? ?”?, ?????? ????? ????? ?”? ????, ????? ?”? ???? ????? ?”? ?????? ?”? ???. ?????? ?”? ??????? ?”? ???? ????? ???? (????? ?) ?????? ???? ????. ??? ?? ??”? ???????? ?????????? ?? ??”? ???????? ??????????
AZOI.IS has every right to feel dejected. It does not matter that the couple is BT or anything else, the decent thing to do would have been to invite (thats really the least one can do) and by not getting an invite the shadchan has every right to send the email. that being said, i dont know if there is any way to “get to the bottom of it.”
although i am a proud progressive liberal i cannot speak for all liberals. yes, it is true that liberals are sometimes hypocrites, for example, in their failure to recognize the rights of certain groups including ultra-orthodox jewish communities. some liberals attach to every stance the progressive liberal thought preaches even if there are ulterior reasons for the position. for example, on israel. a true liberal should not be able for one second to support the misogynist, racist, evil and cruel position of the arab world yet we find so many liberals willing to support hamas which hangs gay people and oppose israel which provides freedoms for the same people. nu, such is the way of the world.
the original question is misguided, though. although i believe our penal system is both overtaxed and unfair to blacks and other minorities i believe a distinction needs to drawn between what is the right thing to do and what the law should be. i would not want my children to take drugs, enter a gay relationship or get an abortion but i believe everyone should have the right to do any of those things. that is not being hypocritical. not everything that is a moral vice should be illegal. i also would not want my kids to smoke cigarettes, play in atlantic city or even watch television. those things, of course, are all legal. i also would not want my kids to eat triefus or be mechalel shabbis. those things are not only legal there is no moral vice attached to them.
as an othodox jew, my belief system is formed by the torah but a as a citizen of this great nation i do not want my belief system to form the position of government.
and honestly, are there more conservatives in the bible belt that live on credit and welfare or upper west side liberals? lets be realistic.
apushatayid: youve got it right. zionists are alive only by means of the artificial life provided by satmar and the muslims. they see zionists under the bed, in the sink, behind the door, in the glove compartment of the car, underneath the chair, way up the chimney hole and even deep down inside the toilet bowl.
The Zionists chashvuhu leru’uh and said eretz yisroel ocheles yoishvehu hee thinking yidishkiet would be devoured by the eretz but eloikim chushuv letoiva and was mekabeitz the galuyois, performed open miracles to assist the mitzvis asseh kibbish eretz yisoel and put us on the path of geuleh.
the zionists are fading and the torah is winning. but with winning comes responsibilities. will the torah world be up for the responsibilities?
???”? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??
(??) ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???, ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???, ??? ????? ????? ?’ ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ??, ????? ?? ???? ?’ ??? ??????? ??????? (?????? ??:) ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????, ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????, ??? ????, ???? ???????? ????? ???, ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ????, ??? ???? ?? ???? (????? ? ?) ??? ??”? ????, ??????? ?? ????, ??????? ???? ???????, ?? ?????? ??, ????? ??????? ??, ??? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ??, ??? ??????? ??? ?????:
and
“??? ???? ????? (????? ??): ?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ????, ??? ??? ?? ??????? ?????? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ????, ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???’. ?????: ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????: ??? ??? ??? ?????. ????? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????, ???? ?? ??? ??; ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ??????”.
and
“????? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????, ?? ????? (?????? ?? ??’ ?”?): ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???, ????? (????? ?’, ??’ ??): ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?’ ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?????, ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ??, ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???, ????????? ???? ???? ???? ??, ?? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??????, ?????? ?? ??? ????, ?????? ???? ????, ????? ?????? ??????? ????”.
hakatan, you do know that zionism existed before hertsel, right? the ramban who believed that kibbush eretz yisroel is a mitzveh never heard of hertsel who was born 600 years later. all the mamrei chazal teaching us the importance of living in eretz yisroel were written before hertsel.
what has changed is that the state was born and today it is made up of some zionists of old, some torah jews, some arabs and some goyim. if the trends continue the zionism of old will no longer be a factor in israel within one generation.
there can be no doubt that the zionists of europe(religious and not religious) were not pro-torah and perhaps in some ways ovdei avoda zuru in placing their medina as god. they tried, like you say, to eradicate by force the torah of the sfardim who came and the ashkenazim they can influence. where they made accommodations for torah it was only done in order to further their own agenda and on the theory that the torah will be lost soon. but guess what? they lost and torah won and very soon torah jews will be the overwhelming majority of the state.
hakatan: point 1) zionism (the way you define it) died when the state of israel was created.
point 2) you have a hard time distinguishing between zionism the movement which started in europe and included religious elements (did you know that the religious zionists planned on voting in favor of the Uganda Project at the Sixth Zionist Congress at Basel on August 26, 1903?) on one hand and the mitzvah to live and capture eretz yisroel on the other hand (which is also called zionism). your diatribes against zionism and religious zionism is very apt when directed at the former and totally misdirected when aimed at the latter.
all of the quotes you cite were stated about the former. the latter, at worst, is a flawed halochic analysis.
the type one zionists are a shrinking majority and they are waiving the flag of a dead movement. the type two are a growing majority.
i am kind of curious if yeshiva ponovitch will display the flag this year or not and if not if this is the first time it will not.
Mw13: the stuff nk does is not just in your face it is downright obscene. They are our version of the Westboro church. That being said I originally said I mostly agreed with you because I agree that the level of hatred shown to what really are a bunch of clowns is disproportionate.
Although I mostly agree with the OP there are some differences between the average chiloni and a NK. First, the NK are responsible for a terrible chillul hashem and there is nothing worse a person can do. But that is not the main difference. The main one is that the NK do things that do not even serve their own purpose but do so only lehachis – to inflame the passions of others religious Jews. Burning a flag (or a Koran) never helped anyone and is done only to instigate. See, e.g., Pastor Terry Jones. Just as we have felt repulsed by Pastor Jones we feel repulsed by NK.
And this is the major difference between Satmar and NK in the eyes of the hamon am. No one feels negatively towards Satmar the same way they do towards NK even though they share almost identical ideologies towards Zionism. But Satmar does not engage in chillul hashem and does not do things solely to instigate. They have a mehalich they truly believe in and they act responsibly towards pushing their mehalich. You can disagree but you cannot feel negatively towards that.
And I think most American Chareidi Jews would feel negatively towards a chiloni who purposefully acts in a way to instigate against Torah. We do not hate the neighbor who doesn’t know any better and drives a car on shabbos but the neighbor who purposefully drives his car into charedi neighborhoods honking his horn down bar ilan street on shabbos only to instigate the frum are viewed negatively.
do you not realize how foolish this sounds?
pba: even the agudah accepts people who you would consider “modern orthodox” and who dont cover their hair and have named their gemurus after such people. im sure the aguda accepts them not because they have money but because they accept accept shomer shabbos jews of all kind and will accept them even if they were poorer than dirt.
hatakan: i am sure you know that gemuruh regarding the three oaths in kuf yud alef in ksubos has been explained by the zionists either as not lehuluchu (a minority opinion or just a medrish) or that once the goyim broke their part of the oath (to not be metzaer the jews too much) then the oaths were now broken.
not that it matters really but personally, i do not think any of this is shayich when it comes to a discussion about israel. israel is a country. its government and population is partly made up of zionists (a shrinking majority) partly made up of goyim like russians, partly made up of arabs and partly made up of jews who are not zionists (a growing minority). the zionists view the state of israel as a culmination of the zionist dream but the jury is still out on whether that will be case (most probably will not be the case). it is a country which as president obama told the egyptians “will not be going away.” the question is what happens to it. the chofetz chaim believed it is important to make sure that the country end up in the hands of the god fearing jews who are shomrei torah and mitzvis. rav yoel held it should be rejected and renounced. i am too small to tell whether rav yoel was right or the others were right but i accept the non-r’ yoel mehalich.
in a way israel is only seen as a zionist state by the arabs (who are afraid to tell the world they hate jews so they say they hate zionists) and the followers of r’ yoels doctrine. (and i know r yoel was not the only one to hold this way i just use the term because he was the most prominent).
i do not think anyone should take lightly the position of r’ yoel and those who share this view but i dont think its so pushitt to say everyone else in the world must be wrong. its a disagreement but we continue to live together and march together under the banner of torah and mitzvis.
itll be quite easy to point at different groups and label them as non-jews and i dont think its a good idea.
nor do i think that we should condone a judiasm without haluchu. the conservative movement believed that unity of the jews must be placed above everything else including haluchu. at the end, through their shitta there were no unity, no jews and no haluchu. so history has taught us that for there to be unity there must be torah and haluchu for which all must strive. but within that framework we must allow for differences of opinion so that our small and fractured nation doesnt become more fractured and smaller.
Hakatan: I most certainly would not call myself modern orthodox and would prefer not to be called orthodox either. I’d most prefer the label yid if a label must be issued.
hakatan: some argue that the chassidim “create a new Torah (for which there is no mesorah) that they then try to pass off as authentic.” For example, the well known practice to travel to umman is seen by some as avoideh zuru. some see the worship at the ohel as ???? ???? ????. Others claim that the wearing of black is copying the goyim. others claim the failure to recognize the mitzvah of kibbush eretz yisroel as a mumar leduvur echud. others see those that had the practice to continue to do meluchu on erev shabbos until long after shkia (because they held by rabbeinu tam) to be mechaleli shabbos befarhesyuh and dinum kegoyim.
personally, i dont think its a good idea to start spweing akipoires and avoiduh zuru whenever i see something i dont agree with at all. veamchu kulum kedoishin leoilam.
HaKatan: disagreements are welcome and yes the amoraim and rishonim and achronim all used sharp language to point out where they thought the other was mistaken but in their heart of hearts they loved and respected each other.
the posts i enjoy reading the most on this forum are those i usually strongly disagree with but which are articulated in an intelligent, rational, unemotional and respectful way; see, e.g., akuperma.
the ramu says one should wear tfillin but make the bruchu quietly. i never understood that. can someone explain why is it the ramu says to make the bruchu quietly?
takkeh: earlier today on this very site Rabbi Hoffman wrote on his entry (which, derekh agav, reads like a clone of the analysis done by Rabbi Ari Senter 2 years ago for Kof K magazine – Nissan 5772, Page 5 – i wonder if rabbi senter gets royalty payments for rabbi hoffmans article), “One last question remains. Why was the Mishna Brurah silent? This author would like to suggest that at the time the Mishna Brurah was written, the other underlying issues were still a factor and had not been adequately resolved. We can conjecture that etc etc etc
I dont see how my maggid shyr is any different.
believe me, i was surprised as the next guy hearing this. i asked the maggid shyr why is it that the shulchun auruch didnt bring this down and he said its because in those days they didnt have kosher lpeisach soap but now that it is widely available even the shulchn auruch would agree its preferable (although not din) to do so. i was wondering whats the source for this or is it just svuruh.
i heard its better to drink some minute amount of soap (non toxic of course) before consuming matzo because the matzo will go into your digestive tract and mix with the digestive juices and maybe there was some flour in the matzo which you failed to chew down and then it will become chometz before reaching your stomach. so just like when you do hagolo you add a little soap you should do the same before eating matzo. i heard this is not halocho but just a chumrah in order to just be a little more certain. does anyone know the source for this?
in fact, there are no 8 days of miluh. miluh performed in days 1-7 are no good while a miluh on days 8-infinity are valid. 8 days of channuka would have been better. maybe the song predates channuka.
along the same lines as HaLeivi, I dont know if its true or not but i heard the chofetz chaim used to sit on seforim given to him for haskomos in order to raise him higher to reach the table on the grounds that it was never learned from. i heard he stopped the practice when a mechabir saw him sitting on one of his seforim and the chofetz chaim was afraid the mechabir was embarrassed and never wanted that to happen again. true or false? i dont know.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck and posts like a duck…
yekke: there are some who believe that everyone in the world should be learning and not working. you think they are wrong but you need to be considerate and tolerant of this view even if you disagree and think its wrong. similarly, rav yoel believed that the state of israel is a frustration of gods will. i may think that the dass torah which disagrees is right and that rav yoel is wrong but how can i disagree with rav yoel? i cant. i need to be tolerant of this view even if i disagree and not only that but love the jews who subscribe to this view.
i need to accept that there are beliefs i accept as true but i can’t foreclose the possibility that i am wrong and they are right. in other words, i believe in what i do but i cant say there is no other way.
there is right and wrong but you shouldnt be so sure of your rightness that you become intolerant of a view you think is wrong.
the only positions that i am intolerant of are those which justify evil and are therefore a chillul hashem. a position that its permitted to steal or kill or injure, for example.
we should be able to debate our viewpoints without being intolerant of another’s. the key is to love every jew and treat every person with respect. disagreements have always been part of the jewish dialogue. there is no reason to frustrate disagreements but there is no reason to be intolerant either.
when a person does a siyim he talks about 2 groups of people, yoshvei koranos and yoshvei bes medrish. seemingly, both of these groups basically sit all day. one group sits in the beis medrish and the other playing cards. yet he says anu ameilim veheim ameilim and rutzim veheym rutzim. seems wrong to say amilim or rutzim about either group. seems like neither group is rutzim or ameilim. furthermore, almost all of humankind does not fall into either category. most people dont sit around all day playing cards or in the beis medrish. (i think someone pointed that out once in one of these topics) most people get up in the morning and go to work and in their free time go to either beis medrish or to the theaters and coffee houses. and even people who go to beis medrish sometimes go to a coffee house and probably the people who go to coffee houses sometimes go to a beis medrish.
i think what it means is that lucky for us that our focus in life is to learn torah. we work in order to be able to live jewish lives which should primarily involve limud torah. the yoshvei beis do all of their amuelus and ritza in order to learn and live jewish lives. the yoshvie keronos do the same exact ameilus and ritza side by side with the yoshvei beis medrish in their offices and in the field but because they do it in order to “get to the weekend and vacations” they are yoshvei keronos and the other guy sitting next to him in the office does it in order to live a jewish life and to be able to get to the beis medrish. it all depends in the focus of the person’s life.
so the learner/earner is a yoishev beis medrish and the disney land /earner is a yoishev keronos.
if in the rambam’s time there were already at least four different world views, who are we to regrind ground flour? in my small view, the torah is not a “how to get into heaven for dummies” guide but a guide on how to live a rich life on earth. people disagreed with this view 900 years ago and there will be those who disagree today.
to be fair, i didnt see his when i posted mine but HaLeivi got that one first.
? ??????? ?????????, ???????? ???-????????; ?????????, ???? ????? ?????? ?????????
? ????????? ?????? ???-?????????, ???-??????? ???-????????? ?????-???????? ????????–???? ?????????????: ???? ???, ?????? ??????? ???????–???? ??????? ??????? ??????????, ??????? ??????? ????????
????????? ?
Perek Tet Zayin.
halievi: i am sure you know the meiri on zugos in the end of psuchim. if the gemuru can insert things that they believe are false in order to make the talmud more “user friendly” isnt it less repulsive to believe that they inserted humor in order to make it more user friendly?
apushita: its not that i havent seen explanations is that the explanations dont always seem the most plausible. i see toast.
shopping: at its root, the problem is one of intolerance. if you believe that zionism was right and there is no way rabbi tietlebaum was right then you come to be intolerant of the other. if you believe rabbi teitlebaum was right and there is no way in the world rav kook was right you come to be intolerant of them. when you start to believe that somehow your group has figured out exactly what hashem wants and that your group has some sort of special connection to gods truth it precludes tolerance of anyone else’s belief. After all, would anyone be tolerant of a view which is opposed by god himself?
some believe that not only does god want everyone to learn (and not work) but to only learn gemuru and not only gemuru but only learn pilpul and not only pilpul but the pilpul my yeshiva espouses (outside in, inside out, brisker, etc) and that everyone else is not doing the right thing because we have the only way – direct from god – because my rosh yeshiva knows what god wants.
when people change their perspective and say “i believe in what i do but i am not foreclosing the possibility that the other maybe is also right” you have tolerance.
haleivi: to support your point, the tiferes yisroel explains a mishna which speaks out against sichas yeludim, as speaking out against humor which is “light headed babble” and that good humor would be one which you can learn something from it.
on the other hand, we have some stories that really do not come to teach any apparent lesson. for example, a gemoro in shabbis which relates a story of a mother in law pulling the ultimate punking of her daughter in law by getting the daughter in law to light herself on fire. seems hard to find a lesson there. or a gemoro in bava kamma which says chanan bija who couldnt find someone to make change for an old zuz in order to pay someone half a zuz which he owed as a penalty to someone he hit so he fixes the problem by hitting the victim a second time in order to pay him a full zuz. lesson? or the story in sota where the gemara says ever since rebbe died there are no anuvim left in the world and rav yosef says “what about me?” looks like a joke for the purpose of a joke. there are other examples.
maybe its a cultural thing. i think if you look at real sfardishe baalei shiyur like rabbi yosef, ztl, there is humor spread out throughout the shiyurim. it plays a big role. seems to me that culturally, that part of the world had humor as a very regular part of life. conversely, rabbi yisroel salant, listed 13 important values in life and did not include humor as one of them. the gaon, who came from lita also refused to see idle humor in shas (and for example, explains rav yosef’s statement to be talking about someone named ‘anna’ and not that rav yosef was trying to be funny. and explains sasson and simcha to be teaching a deeper lesson.)
or maybe there are some that are like this (lesson teaching jokes) and some are like that (just jokes) and some of those that i fail to see a lesson in its because i havent delved into them enough. or maybe all of them have lessons. i am open to the idea that my theory is wrong and that i just need more convincing. i dont pretend that i am always right.
halievi: if i recall correctly the whole sigyeh there in eruvin was about how important it is to be extremely precise with your words so that people understand you correctly. so the gemuruh brought a rayeh from rabbi avahu and demonstrated preciseness of language. but we know, lemayseh, that over the years, typos have indeed creeped into our shas.
Haleivi: I believe the purpose of both story one and story two is to be humorous. We have enough instances throughout shas where the purpose is to be humorous or entertaining that I am ok seeing the toast and not the Jesus. Of course there are those that see the Jesus and I am not there to argue with them and tell them I’m right and you’re wrong. I’m just saying I see toast. Of course not all aggaditeh are meant that way but many are.
haleivi: i also agree with you that i am not saying a pshat.