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Bear,
Maybe you should learn a little mussar, take a look in the mirror and then restart the conversation (maybe apologize and ask mechila?). You have no idea what a man had in his heart a decade ago. Being a baal tayva and knowing you will fail on occasion isn’t mevatel kabolas mitzvos -if it was there would be no geirim ever-.
Nobody goes through life and follows the rules 100% of the time, nobody. Breaking the rules does not make you chutz l’machene, it just means you will have to do teshuva.
Once you are focusing on the ramifications of leaving this world consider the numerous times the Torah commands us to love the Ger and not pain him.
I tried to post a link to it but the mods didn’t let it through. The Ger being discussed posted a response on his website called hiphopactivist.
HaLeivi,
Rashi explain “Vayugad” to mean that Pharaoh sent spies along with the Jews to see if they would come back and the spies sent word that they weren’t coming back but were instead escaping. I also don’t understand your pshat, are you saying that Pharaoh sent them out but his servants didn’t know? Why were they telling him that the Jews ran away?
BaalHabooze,
I don’t know what seforim you mean (kabbalah?). But Rashi doesn’t learn that way so we still need a pshat for Rashi (and other Rishonim).
BaalHabooze,
That is a good answer if you understand pshat that the shibud was supposed to be longer. If you understand that the 400 years is counted from leidas Yitchak then your answer doesn’t work.
Daas Yochid,
I clearly am missing some information about this class of people that is driving your argument.
The Kusim are a very interesting case (as far as I know unique). The King of Ashur appointed a Kohen (who had been living among the aseres hashvatim) to be megayer them. The Kohen didn’t have a choice in the matter (imagine an Orthodox Rabbi with a gun to his head). Still whether or not their Geirus was valid was a machlokes tannaim.
Kozov,
On any given question, Bais Shammai might be right or might be wrong. By paskening like the Bais Hillel, the Sanhedrin of the time was declaring that it held Bais Hillel to be correct and Bais Shammai to be wrong. I have not changed my view on that.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe Zt”l was explaining the statement that in the future we will pasken like Bais Shammai by arguing that in the future the Sanhedrin will have greater understanding and the Majority will agree with Bais Shammai who were sharper.
I thought you were arguing that this meant that in every case they will rule like Bais Shammai. I thought that position to be wrong and still do. Later you clarified “No one ever said they will pasken like Bais Shammai in every instance.”
If all you meant then was that they were more likely to pasken like Bais Shammai, then we have no argument.
DaasYochid,
Assuming that, as Reb Doniel reports, Rabbi Druckman is a talmid chacham and moreh horaah, you would have to trust him that it was not objectively insincere at the time he was megayer them.
Bear,
As Daas Yochid said, kabbolas mitzvos doesn’t mean that you are saying you will never do an aveira l’tayovon. It means you are m’kabel the ol mitzvos and will try to keep them. Having, rachmana l’tzlan, a tayva for MZ is not a bar to becoming a Ger. Nor is believing Judaism “cool.”
Also, I have meant many fine, frum geirie tzedek from modern times.
TLKY,
I stand corrected on Dave Hirsch. He is not anonymous, but I still can’t find the Midrash he cited. Maybe I will send him an email asking for the source.
I don’t know if the “you’re dead wrong” links are referring to me or not. I never discussed voting. I have no problem with only voting for candidates that don’t support these “marriages.” My issue is only with public protests.
HaKatan,
We are talking about protests to protect goyim’s ruchnius, not physically intervening to protect people who are in danger.
TLKY & Daas Yochid,
Obviously there are people who call themselves “Orthodox” but are not really (I don’t mean to cast aspersions on Rabbi Druckman, I don’t know who he is). I should have qualified my statement with “a known, genuine Orthodox Rabbi.” If, however, the Rav is genuine, then we don’t inquire after the geirus but assume it is valid.
Rav Moshe writes that even in the cases such as you describe (what I called objectively insincere) it is at least a defensible position to be maikel b’dieved on the grounds that when they say the words of kabolas mitzvos any insincerity is dvarim sh’bilev. Even though Rav Moshe himself would not do such a geirus.
???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???????. ?? ??”? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????, ?? ?????? ????. ?? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ??”? ???? ???
Igros Moshe Yoreh Deah Chelek Aleph, No. 160
I have to think about your conning Christian scenario, because in that case he told someone (the Church) beforehand that he wasn’t sincere. I am not sure what the halacha would be in such a case.
Health,
I wrote that it is nearly absurd to think that the kesuba without a maaseh is worse than than the maaseh itself, because JayMatt19 implied that he wasn’t sure.
But on my comment: “It would take a very clear statement from Chazal for me to believe that writing a non-binding, useless kesuba on a same gender union is worse than the maaseh aveira itself.” You responed: “Chazal in the Medrash did just that, but you seem to be in some sort of denial.”
So apparently my statement was required for you as well.
Finally, forgive me for being skeptical of citation to an anonymous poster on a different thread who quoted an unsourced Midrash. Compounding my skepticism is that Rav Huna is the generation before Rav Yosef and if anything the latter was a talmud of the former. See Eiruvin 2a (“Rav Yosef was sitting before Rav Huna”). Maybe it is a different Rav Huna or a different Rav Yosef.
Bear,
You are ignoring my argument and the halacha. Yes, if it was clear AT THAT TIME that person didn’t mean it when they verbally accepted ol malchus shomayim, then it is not a good geirus. However, if it was so clear we can assume an Orthodox Rabbi would not have done the geirus.
?? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??, ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???”? ????? ????? ?? ??????, ??? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?????
??”? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ? ???? ???
And we certainly don’t say that if a person is over aveiros after their geirus, then the geirus is batel l’maphraya. You are just ignoring the principle of dvarim sh’belev aynam dvarim. If a person was “conning” a well-meaning rav, then the con is on them because after 120 they will have to face Judgment as a Jew who is michuyiv in 613 Mitzvos.
As for the person you refer to at the end, he was properly migayer and was frum for years. The fact that he has gone off now (although he claims he is still a maiman) does not retroactively annul his geirus, it doesn’t mean he wasn’t sincere at the time, and even if he wasn’t sincere he is still a Jew because dvarim sh’blev aynom dvarim!
“No one ever said they will pasken like Bais Shammai in every instance.”
Oh. I thought that was what we were arguing about. I was saying that pshat is that in the future they will be able to pasken like Bais Shammai. You were saying pshat was that they will have to pasken like Bais Shammai.
If all you meant was they are more likely to pasken like Bais Shammai on any given question then we agree.
What I meant by “bechira” was how a given member of the Sanhedrin understands.
TheBear,
You wrote “A gerus for marriage is invalid, period.” That is simply mistaken. While l’chatchila we don’t a geirus for marriage, everyone agrees that l’acher hamaaseh it is a good geirus (if there was proper kabolas mitzvos).
As Reb Doniel has explained, if someone does milah and t’vilah and is mekabel the ol of the mitzvos, it is a good geirus. This is true even if they know that it will be very hard for them to keep all the mitzvos and they will inevitably fail now and again.
Because dvarim sh’blev aynom dvarim we don’t speculate about what subjectively people had in their hearts. Rather we examine the kabolo of mitzvos objectively. The kabolo will only be invalid (and the geirus invalid) if there is a maaseh at the time that objectively shows in was insincere (e.g. someone is m’gayur at gunpoint, chas v’shalom). The machlokes in the Gemara about the kusim is whether their geirus was objectively insincere.
JayMatt19,
I am not disagreeing that in the normal course of events if there is a kesubah there is a maaseh, and I am not disagreeing that if there is both it is worse than just a maaseh. I am pointing out that it is nearly absurd to think that the kesubah without a maaseh is worse than the maaseh itself.
In addition I am arguing that the it does not make sense for Yidden to get all worked up over the kesuba, when the main issue is the maaseh and we can’t stop that.
Health, you wrote: “You also on the page previously denied that same-gender marriage contracts (Kesubos) can bring destruction in the world. You have taken Chazal’s words and twisted them and Krummed them up for your own ideological POV!”
I am not the one twisting Chazal’s words. All I did was look up the Gemara being quoted and I found that it didn’t say what was being claimed.
“Writing marriage contracts one to the other from the same gender is Much worse that just doing the act regarding its’ punishment in this world, as opposed to the actual sin. It’s called Makeh B’patesh – one sin on top of another.”
Makeh B’Patesh is the last of the 39 Malachos. Writing non-sensical marriage contracts (which is what these are halakhicly) is not “makeh b’patesh” even in a metaphorical sense. There is no “kli” of issur that is completed by writing these contracts.
It would take a very clear statement from Chazal for me to believe that writing a non-binding, useless kesuba on a same gender union is worse than the maaseh aveira itself. If there were aidim and hasra on the writing of such a “kesuba” but no eidim and hasra on the maaseh aveira, do you have a hava amina that someone would be chayav misa? If a kesuba was written up but before the maaseh one of them died, is there a hava amina that the living one would be chayav anything?
Oh, and please provide an actual citation to this Midrash of Rav Huna in the name of Rav Yosef, so I can look it up and see if it says what is claimed (although my points above would remain valid regardless).
WIY,
I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I don’t think that most poskim would hold that it is muttar. This heter is given by the Sridei Eish as a limmud zchus on the minhag of the German kehillos where women would sing zmiros on Shabbos and to matir Jewish youth groups in France (akin to NCSY) to have boys and girls sing Jewish songs together. I don’t think even the Sridei Eish meant it as a general heter for all people at all times.
Health,
I don’t see how they could hold either way. They either hold protesting is a kiddush hashem, in which case it is odd that they haven’t publicly made a kiddush hashem by encouraging their followers to protest, or they can hold that protesting is not good for some reason (or just serves no positive purpose), in which case it make perfect sense that they have not encouraged their followers to to protest.
Secondly, the Agudah’s policy of not publicly protesting in Chutz L’aretz is long-standing and well-known since before WWII.
With respect to Miriam it is pretty clear from the posuk that she was leading the women, not singing for the men.
With respect to Chana there is no evidence that she sang in front of men.
With respect to Devorah it is clear that she sang together with Baruch. This has been used as the source of a couple of Kol Isha heterim. One is that if a man is singing also it is okay. The other heter is that there is no chashash hirhur if the women are singing “shirosh v’tishbochos l’Hakodosh boruch hu.”
If some great Rabbis (such as Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky) say that everyone should do their best to purchase trampolines and still the vast majority of other great Rabbis do not purchase trampolines and don’t encourage their followers to purchase trampolines, then it is reasonable to draw the inference that they feel that shev v’al taaseh odif.
Shraga and Curiosity,
I can assure you that when I was in Yeshiva there were plenty of teef discussions about Harry Potter. Very Yeshivish.
I read through the entire part ?, with the footnotes and I still think I am right.
All this means is that the future Bais Din HaGadol can overturn the halacha and be koveya like Bais Shammai, and given their additional gadlus in chochma it is likely they will overturn some of the psak. But it is unlikely that they will overturn all of it and certainly, short of removing their bechira and individual n’tiyas neshomo, there is no way to guarantee that they will pasken like Bais Shammai in every instance.
TLKY,
My position is that we should keep our mouths shut and not tell the goyim what to do. This is the position being followed, in practice, by the vast majority of the American Orthodox Rabbinate.
TLKY,
The non-support of a position that you consider a mandate, is a support of my position, i.e. that we take no position.
In other words, my opinion is that Jews in golus should not publicly protest the bad things that the non-Jews do. Every time the non-Jews do something, in a public way, that violates the sheva mitzvos and the assorted entities and Gedolim do not encourage public protest, they are supporting my position.
The Hundreds of Rabbonim who have not advocated for any such protests. Agudas Yisroel of America which has always had a policy against public protests. The OU which has not advocated for any such protests. R’Aharon Kotler who refused to join even the famed march on Washington to save the Jews of Europe.
And frankly I am little skeptical about whether Rav Shmuel really signed that letter.
Ahavben,
We don’t agree that it is much worse, we agree it is worse. I disagree on the “much.” The point of not writing the kesuba is that at least they realize that it is not something that they should be proud of. By analogy a murderer who boasts about his murder is worse than one who tries to hide it, but the boasting isn’t remotely comparable to the horrendous nature of the murder.
Kozov,
Is that statement by Rav Yehuda Hachasid brought down l’halacha? Does he mean a public macha or does he mean speaking to someone in private in a way in which he will listen like we understand “hochaich tochiach? Is he speaking about what one should do in golus or what one should do in Eretz Yisrael when it is under Jewish control?
Most importantly, I have the same kasha on Rav Yehuda Hachasid as I had whomever originally made the argument from Yonah. Why do we only find this by Yonah? The non-Jewish world has been violating the 7 mitzvos as long as the mitzvos have been around and we don’t find any common practice of protesting these actions.
As for our brethren not raised with Torah and Mitzvos, the best way to influence them is by example and outreach, not by shouting at the goyim.
avhaben,
And, writing a kesuba without doing the maisa is nowhere near as bad as the maisa (and may not be bad at all). To focus on the kesuba over the maisa is to miss the ikkur for the toful.
JayMatt19,
I looked at the Gemara a while ago. Contrary to the way it is portrayed the Gemara does not say that the goyim subsist on the performance of 3 of the 30 mitzvos they were mekabel. Read it carefully. The Gemara is interpreting a posuk. The first pshat is that the posuk is referring to the 30 tzaddikei umos ha’olam upon whose zchus the umos ha’olam are miskayem. The second pshat is that the posuk refers to 30 mitzvos that the goyim were mekabel of which they keep 3. In this pshat there is no mention of the umos ha’olam being miskayem in their zchus (and the contrast with the first pshat is m’duyuk fakert).
Additionally, even if the Gemara actually said what people claim it would not mean that preventing same gender marriage is more important that preventing same gender relations. Rather the Gemara would be saying that despite the goyim’s aveiros they are able to still exist on the zchus of a very small act of not writing a kesuba on these relationships.
This is like the Aggada that says that Nevuchadnezzar Harasha was allowed to conquer the world in the zchus of taking 3 steps to call out to a messenger for kavod shomayim. It doesn’t mean that somehow taking those steps was a zchus greater than the numerous aveiros of shfichas damim and avoda zara of Nevuchadnezzar, but rather despite those terrible aveiros Nevuchadnezzar still gets some schar for taking the steps. But obviously his schar would have been much, much greater if he would have not murdered, pillaged and served avoda zara.
So too here. While the umos ha’olam get schar for not writing kesubos on same gender unions, they would certainly get much more schar if they would avoid such relations all together. And if for some reason two men would have a celibate relationship but chose to write a kesuba for it, then that would be a much bigger zchus than that of not writing a kesuba.
Berliner,
I cannot name a Rosh Yeshiva or “popular” Rosh Mesivta who was a product of YGMH. This doesn’t mean they don’t exist but I don’t know who they are. I don’t personally know many people who went the Yeshiva under the age of 40 and it is extremely unlikely to be either of those things at such a young age (unless you married in).
I do know, however, that many of the members of my shiur and the shiurim 2 to 6 years ahead of me were among the best bochurim and later yungerleit in the many world class yeshivas they attended after Montreal. They were among the very best bochurim in South Fallsburg, in Mir Yerushaliyim, in Lakewood etc.
Frankly I have never come across such a high percentage of top learners from one high school, as what I experienced in my years in YGMH. I am certain that within the next 10 years some of them will be well known as Rosh Yeshiva or “popular” and “distinguished” Ramim.
Avhaben,
I think you are misunderstanding the Gemara if you are taking it to mean that an official “marriage ceremony” (which does absolutely nothing from a halakhic point of view) that by itself violates no issur is worse then the maaseh atzmo which is a violation of one of the Sheva Mitzvos B’nei Noach (and would be yehoreig v’al yaavor for Jews).
That is a very well done speech.
Reb Doniel,
Yonah had a direct command from Hashem as a navi (and still did his best to avoid it). I don’t think you can compare any issue today to Yonah.
Toieva and Avodah Zara was rampant among the goyim in the ancient world, yet we don’t find Hashem sending neviim on a regular basis to reprimand those nations and we don’t find the Chachomim sending messengers and protestors in the post-nevua era.
We are an “or l’goyim” by example not by yelling at them.
Kozov,
When we say Bais Shammai was not the majority, that means that the majority thought Bais Shammai was wrong!
If we knew being sharper meant you were always right then we would always pasken like Bais Shammai and we would always pasken like R’Meir. But we don’t. The future Bais Din HaGadol which will have the ability to best discern who is right, will examine each issue on its merits and pasken like Bais Shammai where they were right and Bais Hillel where they were right.
To take the statement literally is just illogical.
WIY,
But doesn’t that justify Pharoah in chasing after them? Also is that really a reason to lie?
Kozov,
I read your source and my explanation is in line with it if you don’t take it too literally (the lasid lovo thing was only meant to clarify that we were discussing Yimos HaMishaich when the normal rules of halacha and nature will apply).
There is no way we can say with certainty what the future Sanhedrin HaGadol will pasken on any given issue. Just because Bais Shammai were sharper doesn’t mean they were always right (or else we would pasken like them now). Rather on every given issue the future Sanhedrin will render a psak (and paskening like Bais Shammai will once again be on the table).
KASHA,
Why did Hashem tell Moshe to lie to Paroah that they were only going to leave for 3 days? Why not just demand to leave? To put it differently, wasn’t Paroah right to chase after the B’nai Yisroel when they didn’t return? If so, why was he punished?
Beware of taking these sort of statements too literally. As some have pointed out the “l’asid lavo” is discussing techiyas hameisim not the days of Moshiach.
After Moshiach comes the Sanhedrin HaGadol will reconvene and will have the power to reverse the ruling of any previous Sanhedrin HaGadol, including the ruling that we pasken like Bais Hillel over Bais Shammai. Whether or not the coming Sanhedrin will in fact rule like Bais Shammai will depend on the shikul hadas of the members of that Sanhedrin. There is no way to know whether or not any particular psak will change.
Can we avoid saying Lashon Hara on large segments of the Jewish population?
Wow, I am shocked.
Outside of the extreme situation of the Holocaust, has there been any other time where Gadol has advocated Jews publicly protest something a non-Jewish government was doing?
If you can go back you might want to edit your post. Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky is not on that letter.
I would like to see that letter.
HaKatan, you are right I shouldn’t have been flippant. I do think that they might have had more success if they tried to work behind the scenes with members of Congress, the Senate, or the President’s cabinet.
abcd2,
The PQ doesn’t get their support from Montreal, they get it from the rest of the province. I wouldn’t recommend living in Quebec City but in Montreal I never experienced any anti-semitism beyond stupid teenagers making “Juife” puns.
Rabbi Avigdor Miller publicly protested abortion decisions!?! Or did he just speak against them in a shiur or in his shul?
There is a big difference between criticizing something in a schmooze and standing outside with a placard or giving an interview to a media outlet.
“there are exceptions, such as during WW II, when Rabbanim did march to Washington.”
That didn’t really work out, did it. But R’Aharon Kotler, R’Kalmanovitz and Irving Bunim had some success going behind the scenes. However, I agree, that in such a grave situation where so many Jewish lives are on the line and you are not criticizing the government but begging the government, a public outcry might be in order.
Mishkav Zachor isn’t such a situation. And we should not “express” our disagreement. We should keep our mouths shut.
I am not quite sure what JayMatt’s position is. But I agree that Jews as Jews should never express any public opinion that is even mildly controversial and definitely never endorse political parties or candidates. Even if it is directly related to Jewish Issues it should be minimized as much as possible.
We tend to forget that we are in golus. This is not our land and it is not our place to have protests or to tell the goyim what to do, it only creates more anti-semitism. Behind the scenes advocacy is fine but in public never.
I saw a clip of him speaking at Conservative assembly of some sort. He clearly said that he wants to give Conservative and Reform the power to marry, divorce and convert.
My fear is not that some Chareidim will now marry mamzeirim, my fear is everyone else. It will create a tremendous split and prevent ba’alei teshuva (who will want to become frum if they won’t be able to marry).
If I am allowed to provide a link to clip, I will.
Berliner,
It is sad that you have such a bad view of Montreal. I completely disagree on almost every point (the MK had issues years, and years ago but has been a very fine hechsher for a while now).
I don’t know what you mean by “no rosh yeshivas have ever come out of the place.” Many, many very fine bochurim have come out of the Yeshiva and many of them have gone on to be tremendous talmidei chachamim. The Bais Medrash program of the Yeshiva is having problems now but the high school is doing just fine.
The anti-semitism is grossly over-stated. I grew up there and I never felt any “palpable” hatred. The community is actually growing quite nicely (which has led to a housing shortage).
I don’t know your connection to Montreal but it seems like it is really coming through a darkly tinted glass.
Health,
While Reb Mottel Zt”l was alive, he was undoubtedly in control of the ruchnius of the Yeshiva. Recently, and in my mind terribly, R’ Glustein was removed from his position (and then brought back in as Rosh Yeshiva Emiritus) and R’Zeffren was forced to retire.
This isn’t really relevant but the Yeshiva’s history before R’Glustein came back from Telz is more complicated. Merkaz Hatorah was started by R’Baron Zt”l and Yeshiva Gedola was started as a branch of Chofetz Chaim. They merged and became Yeshiva Gedola Merkaz Hatorah about 45 years ago under Rabbi Glustein’s leadership.
My information is a little behind the times because I haven’t actually lived in the community in 10 years (but I go back to visit often).
The Yeshivish community if very frum (it is definitely frummer now than when I grew up) and getting frummer. I think the education through high school in the more litvish Yeshiva is very good (I can’t comment on the more heimishe Mesivta). The high school rabbeim are very good. I can’t really comment on the Bais Yaakov because I never went there.
There are less problems there than in Yeshivish communities in the US. They are 10-15 years behind in terms of the problems.
You can manage in Montreal, living in one of the Jewish communities, without speaking french. You will pick up some french once you are there and it definitely shouldn’t be something to worry about with respect to moving there.
Rent is relatively cheap (compared to Brooklyn or Monsey). But to buy a house in the Yeshivish neighborhood is expensive (more expensive than Monsey but less than Flatbush).
When people say the Yeshivish community is small, that is only compared to the Greater NY area communities. It is as big or bigger than Detroit, Cleveland, Miami and others.
There are a lot small shuls but no real big shuls and everything within the Yeshivish community is in walking distance. Because Montreal has significant Chasidish, Lubavitch, Sephardi and MO communities as well there is plenty of Kosher food.
There are two Yeshivos that run from Nursey through High School and there is one Bais Medrash (that has fallen on hard times lately but was great when I went there). There is a large Bais Yakov and Seminary.
I grew up in the yeshivish community in Montreal (and still have plenty of family there). I can answer any specific questions anyone might have.
Montreal is a great city and the frum community has many wonderful people in it.