Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Jphone, I don’t know what stage of drunkenness you refer to however look at the Gemora first Perek of Brochos and the Rambam it should satisfy you.
Jphone, I don’t know what stage of drunkenness that you refer to however I am unaware of anyplace that Rav Hirsh zt”l makes known his view of the chiyuv Ad Dilo Yudah. I am aware that the view that has been followed tradiotionaly in Yeshivos is the pashut pshat of the Gemora and Medrash (Otzer Midrashim) and advocated by the Rambam which is one is required to drink until the point of complete inebriation at which time one is potur from drinking further.
The point of complete inebriation is define as not being able to discern the difference between Arur Human and Boruch Mordechai.
Being that every single one of my Rabbeim including Gedolei Hador (one who passed away) stated as such and I personally saw many drink to that point on Purim. I personally will not be the one to break the Mesorah.
Oomis where these Rabbonim form their opinions from I have no idea, None of them are quote on qoute mainstream Rabbonim for a reason. Basically it’s straight out Shulchan Aruch women may not be counted for a minyan (orach chaim siman nun daled if i remember correctly)
Furthermore let me make it perfectly clear for one to take it upon themselves to rate a Yom Tov established by Chazal is naive, foolish and dangerous.
Furthermore when you continue on your diatribe against drinking on Purim please take a moment to remember that the plain meaning of the Gemora is that one is required to get drunk on Purim.
It is one thing to say that perhaps in light of certain risks in keeping with Pikuach Nefesh and other halachic principals we are required to examine alternitave shitos explaining this Gemora most of which start whith a Bais Ephraim.
However it is quite another to say the very act of drunkenness on Purim isa a Chilul Hashem. When one does such a thing they show thier barometer of proper behavior is not that which has been laid down by Chazal rather it is that of the nations in whos midst we find ourselves.
Thier can be no greater Chilul Hashem then subjecting the teachings of Chazal to the morals of the goyim.
In closing I would urge you to take heed of the words of Rav Shamshon Raphael Hirsh zt’l who began his famous nineteen letters by stating firmly and clearly that when one studies the Torah one must study it as a Jew not in a dispassionate way.
So to when we study Chazal we must study it as Jews with amesorah on each and everything we do including how we celebrate Purim.
It seems to me that this disscussion has moved from the realm of Halacha andMesorah in other words understanding the expicitGemorah which says one must get “plastered” on Purim to the era of feelings based upon the culture around us.
Being that I have always been taught that strictly orthodox Jews are prohibited from allowing feeling to dictate thier analysis of Halacha there is no way I can really find a place for these feelings within normative Halachic Judaism.
Thank You Mod I could not have explained it better myself.
In addition I would like to be notified where those shitos that hold going to sleep not through drinking are located as well as the source.
By the way if youre yotze through a nap the sleeping must be brought about through drinking. In other words the wine must cause someone to fall asleep if not the sleeping is worthless.
Oomis with all due respect there is no one debating that it is ossur to get behind the weel of a car drunk.
You neglect to explain though how it is mutar for a boy to drink kiddush wine but ossur to drink on Purim whioch is also a chiyuv according to pashut pshat gemorah, mesorah, as well as minhag.
However to discourage the growing trend of drinking I would highly support a vigouros campaighn no less forceful then the one against drinking on Purim with the goal of eradicating the growing number of shul “Kiddush Cloubs” wich truly have no basis in Halacha my hunch is such a campaign would do much more to arrest the disturbing tren of drinking then the current campaign against Halacha.
Incidentally, Why is iit that the campaign against Purim Drinking is conducted with so much vigour yet we barely hear a peep about Kiddush Clubs,
Guesses Anyone?
Jphone, my point was that if one holds it is assur for someone under 21 to consume alchohol then any amount is assur period even if its concord kal and even if it’s 1.5 ounces.
As for being yotze with some one else what if the person is married and under 21 or even unmarried and a bochur in yeshiva or any other common case?
I just wanted to mention to OOmis that excluding Chanuka all Yomim Tovim ar a zecher for something that happened outside of Eretz Yisroel i.e Pesach is a zecher for Yetzias Mitzrayim which happened in Eygpy a place we are forbidden to return to period!
Again for all those who hold underage drinking is “assur” I would pose the question what do you do if you hold what cannot make HaGafen on grpae juice from concentrate (a very common view) are you then not aloud to make kiddush on wine come shabbos until you are 21 years old?
Sorry Jothar but it is quite famous that Rav Yisroel Salanter and his talmidim would be stone drunk the entire Purim and sober up as soon as night fell.
Additionally I was told by “alte mirrers” that on Purim all the bochrim drank.
While it is true Rav Aaron Kotler zt’l did not drink on Purim neither did he drink the entire year for kiddush he drank the bare minimum to be yotze and Rav Shneur zt’l used to become quite shikur on Purim as Rav Malkiel Kotler shlita does as well.
Interestingly I was told by a talmid of Rav Aron zt’l that Rav Shneur was extremely shy and would not say any Torah of his own the whole year but when Purim time came and he was shikur he would all of a sudden become a “mayin hamisgaber”
Also regarding the Feminist Jewish Movement please if you don’t know what your talking about keep away from them you’ll only mess yourself up.
The Feminist Gripe is specifically the fact that there are different mitzvos given to men then women which is in their view a put down on women the mitzvos you mentioned specifically they view as especially demeaning mikvah? challah a zecher to Chava’s Chet what about Adam?
Again there are ansewers to all of these and they require a serious understanding of Jewish Hashkofa based on Learning not feelings.
Oomis would you bother to explain the “Halachically Accepeted” ways of women forming a minyan? And how this jives with a two thousand year old mesorah of women not davening with a minyan?
Oh and while it is absurd to get into a debate about the chashivus with Purim I would note regarding your point of Hashems name not being mentioned in it that the Gra states the whenever “melech” is mentioned in the Megilla it refers to Hakodosh Boiruch Hu.
As to the fact that “Jewish Drunken Bums” are a chillul Hashem I must say on this poin we indeed Disagree I feel that the words of Chazal are more relevent then the opinions of NPR and therefore since Chazal obviously felt “Jewish Drunken Bums” are not a Chilul Hashem then that issue is settled.
Secondly again we shall have to agree to Disagree on another point Chazal state numerous times one cannot use their feelings in decideing levels of schar for a particular mitrzva you obviously disagree, again I side with Chazal.
In closing I would remind you that the Arizal did put Purim on the level of Yom KIppur (YOM KI-PURIM)regarding certain aspects of the day.
First off the ansewer you gave that Reform Lady does not really address the point and what would you ansewer the Modern Orthodox Feminists who do all the mitzvos you mentioned. It seems to me that you yourself do not really understand why a woman should not be counted in a Minyan. And if so I would highly recommend you find out the ansewer it’s not this forums place to discuss it however I assure you it’s quite relevent.
Also your feelings about what Hashem is more concerned about are really irrelevent, In fact Chazal warn us on numerous occasions not to try and decide which Mitzvos get more schar then others. In fact the reason why many say not to recite the aseres adibros each day is precisley because minim were stating the Aseres HadiBros are chalila “more” Torah then other mitzvos.
As for the crack about the fact that it did not happen in Eretz Yisroel that is patently Ludicrous first off a mitzva is a mitzva, second Purim is quite possibly a part of the mitzva of Mchiyas Amalek.
Thirdly this whole thing of making a chilul Hashem in the eyes of the goyim is quite perplexing Are we subjecting our understanding of the Torah to what is a Goy’s version of proper behavior?
As for what you state about making a chilul hashem in the eyes of the Goyim it is quitye possible a chilul Hashem in fromt of Yidden is worse.
And I would like to know which element of the forbidden is in the mitzva of drinking?
I find this whole buisness of Dina D’Malchusa quite interesting.
First off if their is a mitzva to drink on Purim it would apply to all those who are male and over the age of thirteen, period. In a case where the law of the land say expressly that oone may not fulfill a chiyuv it is questionable to say the least if one is obligated to fulfill Dina D”Malchusa.
As for the question of “are you so makpid regarding other chiyuvim” while the point is absurd in it’s own right I would just wish to ask. Are you makpid never to Jaywalk?
Aries i just wondered what you mean by drinking a shiur to fulfill the mitzva but not drinking to get drunk?
Lets see, either you hold like those that say you can sleep, however they hold that you must fall asleep from the drinking. I always wondered if there is anyone who actually does this.
Or you can hold that the mitzva is to get drunk.
Or you can hold the mitzva is to drink and getting drunk is a “P’Tur” but till you are drunk you are mchuyov to keep drinking.
Your statement jives with none of these.
Also, I just wanted to add that while I am sure there are many emergencies. However, when I was a bochur a friend of mine was brought into Maimonodies on Purim Night, he was kept there the whole night. For the entire time he was there the bochur who accompanied him stated that only one other person was brought in. Incidentally, the other Bochur who was brought in admitted he gets drunk basically every Friday Night.
My friend was there the entire night and discharged early in the morning. The Frum Doctor tried to tell him what a chillul Hashem it was that he was brought in. Whereby My friends comapanion asked why was he brought in in the first place, he did not need pumping and Hatzola kept him in the ambulance for an hour before he was brought in.
The excuse? If we are called down we must bring him in whether he needs it or not.
Point: Maimonidies Hospital Purim Night had a Total of Two people brought in, one of whom did not need it. I find that illuminating.
For some reason I think its time for people to step back and look at drinking from a different perspective.
Chazal teach us that one can see the essence of a person from three things one of those is drinking. The reason is because after one drinks to the point where he has no control over himself then his essence comes out. You get to see who he really is.
In fact the simple way of understandin the Chiyuv on Purim is through this Mamar Chazal.
Normally one acts in a refined manner simply because he knows the difference between good and bad.
On Purim we are told to bring ourselves to a point beyond that where we do not have a conscious realization of the difference between “Mordechai” good and “Haman” bad. But still we are must act as Mordechai in other words on Purim we bring out the essence of a person.
Have we ever stopped to realize what it is that is occuring around us on Purim.
Yes Boys and Men are Drunk, Totally Drunk.
But what are the vast majority of them doing?
Hugging and Kissing each other collecting money for tzeddaka. Crying over the past year and making up with those they did not get along with. Yes they are wild, very wild. But I have yet to see fighting between men on Purim rather it is utter Joy one sees.
In my opinion the greatest Kidddush Hashem of the entire year is on Purim it is the one time we get to see the true difference between a Yid and Goy we get to see yidden with no control over themselves with no real knowledge of their actions showing their inherent Beauty.
And if it comes to pass that this changes then it is the Parents and Rabbeim those raising a new generation that must stop and ask themselves why this is.
Why is that we are raising a new generation that is inherently unhappy that when drunk does not act like the Bochrim of five years ago rather acts like a goy?
That is a question that I am afraid those that campaighn against drinkning will not ask for it would raise questions that require ansewers many are unwilling to give.
In conclusion I would like to relate an episode I witnessed as a Bochur.
It was Purim Day and we were all drinking at my Maggid Shiurs house. An elderly Russian Man was passing by and someone invited him in.
He was an obvious irreligious Jew.
He stayed the whole day.
At night he told some he was a Doctor who was about to retire. He had never done mitzvos since he grew up in Communist Russia.
He went on to say that he had never seen anything so moving in his entire life.
In Russia when people would get drunk they would kill each other over here for the first time in his life he saw a buch of Drunk men with their teacher dead drunk and singing and dancing with each other.
He then asked if someone could get him in touch with a person to teach him about Torah.
Seeing a bunch of Drunk and wild Yeshiva Bochrim on Purim brought a Feir Yid to Torah,
Are we capable of seeing what this Frei Yid saw.
Not sure if its a real yekkish minhag or just something my family does, but we decorate cookies like Haman and his ten sons and hang them from the chandelier.
Mrs. Ben Levi
The part of underages not drinking on Purim is intewresting.
I would like to know if the age limit is lowered to 15 (as many propose) would it then be permitted Also is it permitted for those in countries with a lower age limit allowed to drink.
Taalmid lo Chacham,
The question on the Beis Ephraim is that if the Mas’e of zKum Rabah V’Shochtei L”rav Zeira was brought down to disprove the chiyuv of Ad Di Lo Yodah then why would is it the story ends off that the following year Rav Zeira stated he would not have the seuda with Rabah because of “lav Kol Yomah Israchish Nisah” he would not have needed a Nes since based upon the previos years events there was no lomger a chiyuv to Drink.
The Stiras in Rav Akiva Eiger you quoted could be ansewered simply that the mitzva on Purim is not neccassarily to get drink rather it is to get drunk hence Rav Akiva Eiger question if it is not a mitzva to Drink (i.e Simcha) then why only wine anythige that brings about shikrus should be used.
As an asided the Rambam seems to hold there is no chiyuv to get drunk at all rather the Gemora is saying that when one gets drunk they are potur from Drinking further.
I would add that There is a well known Senior Rosh Yeshiva who refused sign the letter against drinking beer on Purim because he stated that when he was a bochur the minhag in Yeshivos was that you can fulfill the mitzva with anything that gets one drunk and he is not big enough to sign against a minhag.
Howevr I do know that Rav Shmuel Berenbaum zt’l held that since beer is dangerous one should only drink wine.
I don’t have a gemora in front of me so forgive me if I mix up some the names of some shito but to the best of my knowledge the shita that says one should not get drunk is based on the Bais Ephraim which states the reason why the Gemora brings down the ma’ase of “Kum Rabah V’Shuchtei Lrav Zeira” after the psak of Adeh Lo Yudah is precisley to teach us the dangers of drinking and therefore Chazal retracted the Psak.
The obvios difficulty with the Bais Ephraim is that if so how come the year after the maseh of Rabuah and Rav Zeira Raboh wished to have a seuda again and Rav Zeira replied “Lav kul Yoma Israchish Nisa” according to the Beis Ephraim that states the purpose of that Aggadita was to show us that Ad Di Lo Yudah is not literal then there should have been no need for a Nes?
If I remember correctly the Pri Chodosh asks this on the Shitas Beis Ephraim.
Also Otzer Midrashim brings a fascinating Medrash recounting a story abour Rav Meir who gor drunk Purim Night (Rav Chaim Kanievsky in his Hagpoes on Otzer Midrashim states that it’s Rav Meir Gaon in that Medrash not Rav Meir the Tanna) from the wording of that Medrash it seems it was standard practice not just to drink on Purim Day rather on Purim Night as well.
A halachic basis for this would probably revolve depend on whether one holds that Drinking is a mitzva onto itself or rather it is a part of the seuda the Mashmoes of the Rambam is that it is a seperate mitzva and if so perhaps it would apply ny night as well but if one would hold it is a part of the seuda then it should only apply by day since there is no chiyuv seuda at night.
lakewoodwife – never tasted lachmagine…don’t even know how to pronounce it, but I’ve been looking for good freezable recipes, so I gave it a try. Definately interesting to my ashkenazic tastebuds, but my husband likes sfardi food, and he says they’re very good! thanks! Can you post some more easy recipes?
Mrs. Ben Levi
Thanks Mod-80 but it appears my comp is not salvagable.
Sorry haifagirl, I haven’t a clue about your issue!
When I turn on my desktop I get the following message.
Windows could not start because the following file is missing or corrupt:
<Windows root>system32ntoskrnl.exe.
Please re-install a copy of the above file.
Does anyone know what this is about, if I run the recovery cd’s will that solve the issue, and have I already lost all my data?
Thanks!
are the recipes in Aromas of Aleppo complicated?
Mrs. Ben Levi
Pashuteh Yid,
1) Look in Rashi, Rashi is specifically talking about other tragedy’s “Cach He Darko Shel Hakodosh Boruch Hu”
2)I do not know how explaining what to ansewer a Haitian child has anything to do with the Torah Hashkofa on this.
3)Actually I would not particularly care what a Cristian preacher says is the cause of the Holocaust.And whether I like it or not it is Rashi (as well as the Ran in Droshos) who stated the Torah Hashkofa to this event. It is not somethingone can ignorebecause”i would’nt like if a Cristian would say it”
4) Can you please explain which part of the Chazal that I need to understand better?
5) As for Hashems Teffilin, it’s actually a Gemora in Brochos and Hashems Teffilin are not the same as ours and I fail to see how you explain death (all death comes throught the Malach Hamuves)
6) Your statement about talking in shul was actually given as a cause for the Cossack MAssacres we have a specific Mi Sheberach recited in shul to this day specifically as a result of that.
7) Regarding the Holocaust far be it for me to make a statement about that. What I can say is that Rav Shmuel Berenbaum zt’l The Rosh Yeshiva Of Mirrer Yeshiva in Brooklyn who lost his entire extended family in the Holocaust told me personally. ” it was obvious to everyone it was a oinesh for the haskala, Germany is where the Haskala came from, We have a Tochecha we don’t think it’s real Hashem warned us what would happen” (the original statement was made in Yiddish and was part of an hours long discussion mostly about pre-war Europe)
8) As for your understanding of “Am Hanivchor” I would suggest you learn through Derech Hashem as the Ramchal explains it in detail. A hint would be if you would look at Tosfes in Kesubos Daf Gimmel amud Beis. “Afkeireh Rachmona L’zarei D’Mitzri”. Also llok up why a ger is considered “k’kuton shenolad
Vadim, There are 7.0 quakes that have very few casualties, wasn’t there just one of that type in California? It just so happened that this one took place in a desperatley poor country with no real building codes in place which led to thousands of buildings collapsing as a result.
I once heard from a Rosh Yeshiva that the real danger of newspapers is their ability to make everything “rational” hundreds of thousands of people die because of the laws of geology. One need not take a lesson from it it was just a “natural occurence”.
Rashi and other Rishonim may have taught us that when Hashem brings tragedy upon the nations it is expressly so that we should get the message. But with our enlighted indset our vast knowledge of geology and gravity(the source of which is unknown and purely speculated upon) are able to “explain” these events as mere natural occurances.
We complain when disaster strikes. We ask why it happened, what did we do to deserve it?
Do we ever stop and think?
The Mesilas Yeshorim writes that those who do not posses the ability to contemplate bring tragedy upon themselves. First Hashem sends a small message those who are wise get it. Those who are not then need a slightly stronger one and it goes on and on.
Perhaps if we wanted to end such tragedys we would do the obvious. Perhaps it is time to say we don’t need any more wake up calls.
After September 11th a prominent Rav said in public. “I am not a navi I can not say specifically what brought about this tragedy, However I do know that we need to learn from it and each of us needs to make a Cheshbon HaNefesh. We each need to figure out what each of us as individuals must improve upon”
Perhaps a Tragedy of such magnitutde requires that those of us who are Mavir Sedra with Rashi need to be mekabel “Yishmuo V’Yiruo” as Rashi in this very week writes and understand that tetonic plates only move when Hashem tells them to and if these particular ones did not move for over 200 years till now it is for a reason and it’s time we stopped kidding ourselves about it.
Perhaps one could add that those who think that no one would have felt bad if such a thing had happened in Nazi Germany don’t really know thier history. The American Airlift to save the quote on quote “innocent people” of Berlin from starvation right after the war is still considered to be one of the greatest “humanatarian” acts of the last century by non-jewish sources.
Look it up.
No Problem Mod, In fact thanks.
And yochi, The rabbis speech is pretty eloquent and heartfelt yet he doesn’t adress Rashi which also happens to be in this weeks Parsha.
As for the speech’s substance the comparison Hashem made to the Avos Hakedoshim was actually about Moshe Rabbeinu’s request “what is the name I should tell them” (paraphrasing). I would actually suggest that any one who would like to know More on that particular matter should learn through the end of last weeks Medrash Rabba and beginning of this weeks it’s actually quite interesting. Especially since Chazal do state why Hashem made the shibud worse at the end.
In brief it was in order to cause all the mitzrim to partake in the Jews suffering so that they could not claim “collective punishment” later on. Again learn through Medrash Rabba the end of Shmos.
i would just like to clarify when I wrote it is quite “appropo” I was refering to the question not the tragedy.
Dear Pashuteh Yid,
I presume from the context of your coment that when you describe your views on Religion you are including “Judaisim” in it. Therefore I must correct you. The Ramchal in Derech Hashem explains in great detail the purpose of Judaisim and it is not what you wrote.
Furthermore according to one pshat in Chazal in Mesechta Brochos it is impossible for humankind to ever truly know why the “good” suffer.
In answer to your question of Haiti, that question is actually quite appropo as Rashi in this weeks Parsha (Perek Zayin Pasuk Gimel) states quite clearly that the derech of Hakodosh Boruch Hu is ” Mavie Poruneus al HaUmos K’DeiSheyishmuo YisroelV’Yiruo.
As such it would seem that from a tragedy of such immense proportions Klal Yisroel sould indeed shudder and make a true Cheshbon Hanefesh.
The main difference in Halacha between Libo gas Bo and no loibo Gas Bo is the Heter of Baloh Bir.
Normally if a womans husband is in the same city as her and can arrive home at any time there is no issur yichud with her, however if a man is “libo Gas Bo” with her then the issur Yichud would apply.
In addition according to many Poskin including the Beis Shmuel and Chelkas Mechokek if in a case of Libo Gas Bo there is no heter of “pesah Pasuach L’reshus Harabim” a door open towards a public area.
Please be aware that what I have written above is only a very brief synopsis of some very pertinent halachos for any women working in an office or any one with a cleaning lady and other common cases. In any particular situation one must consult a Rav who is versed in Hilchos Yichud.
As for group setting that is a very complex topic and the halachos for ashkenazim and sephardim would differ somewhat and is truly beyond the scope of this forum.
Just-a-Guy, halachically two first cousins are permitted to marry each other, hence they have all the regular Dinei Rrvah and then some. Even HaEzer Siman chuf-beis states that relatives have the din of “Libo Gas Bo”, meaning there are some hateiri of Yichud that while applicable in most cases are not applicable in theirs.
However the Rashbam in bava Basra states that if one passes a place of pritzus even if he looks away he still is considered a rasha.
Miminumwage and child labor laws are great.
You have an epidemic of juvenile crime with youngsters who are not of the “book learning” type.
Instead of them being able to work and gain a valubale sense of self worth, contribute to their families finances, gain valubuable carrer expierience,they roa the streets and commit crime?
What happens after they get caught.
Their sent to juvenile prisons where they are rehabilited through work and job training which are largely useless because they have already gotten used to a life of crime.
Charliehall it’s interesting that you sign off without really addressing any issues.
To require all to pay for everyone is actually immoral, the way the mishna in Avos describes it is “One who says yours is mine and mine is yours is an am haaretz” (from memory but I think it’s accurate. To explain the Mishna is beyond the scope of this post.
You state that Medicare funds everybody that Insurance is not willing to.
Let e get that we will add thirty million to a system pay for more treatments then everyone who currently has insurance pays for and still cut costs massivley.
I think Walter Mondale said it best, When he left politics he bought a motel which subsequently went bankrupt upon which he said “if I had know then what I know now about buisness I would have voted differently”.
To cap it all off you seem to wax eloquent about Medicaid (A government Health Insurance) yet state this Bill is not about Government Health Insurance. Is so why bring up Medicaid.
Sorry, I did not reply earlier but I was by the Dentist, No I do not have Dental.
CharlieHall, to address your statement on health care.
You assert that it is mathamatically impossible to insure all Americans privatley.If that is so how can the Government do it
Well youwill assert by cutting costs?
Well which costs? Cutting comensation to Doctors so the best and brightest do not decide to enter the field?
Perhaps not,Perhaps it’sby cuttin 500 billion from Medicare wich will somehow be done without affecting the quality of care.
As to the point about Sodom.
In actuality the issue with Sodom was that one size fits all they cut shory people and long people to all fit one sized bed.
Sounds a lot like One Size fits all Socialism to me.
“Some people are dying due to lack of access to health care”
Actually as has been pointed out numerous timesemergency rooms are obligated to treat all people immiedietly upon arrival.
I would assert that many people would die if Government Health Care is implemented.
Regarding your point of needing Health Care.
First of all whether ot not it is needed it is constitutianally questionable if the government has the write to force someone to do anything. (Don’y bring in Car Insurance because it is precisley for that reason the govvernment can only require Liabilty and not Collision).
In addition teenagers and young adults often do nbot need health care period.
Welcome Back I look forward to reading your response.
CharlieHall.
In regard to Dr. Tendlers shiur on health care, in the shiur you posted he uses the same chiyuv of hashavas aveida to justify a halachic basis for health insurance. I suggest you read it again if you are unaware of that. (I might add that it is an assertion that is patently ridiculus).
Regarding Meziza B’Peh. Tosuggest I would consider abolishing it because of Dr. Tendlers writing is to suggest the absurd. To suggest it puts childrens lives at risk when it is done to thousands upon thousands of children each year with no adverse side effects is even more absurd.
Let me be clear Meziza B;Peh has been demonstated to be an itrinsic part of the Bris milah ceremony by those who are far more knowledgebale then me those include Rav Yisroel Belsky shlita, Rav Feivel Cohen shlita, Rav Hillel David shlita, and Rav Lazer Ginsburg shlita any of these eminent Rabbonim and Poskim (Rav Feivel Cohen Badei HaShulchan is one of the basic texts used by those studying for semmicha today, Rav Lazer Ginsburg has written a Two Volume magnum Opus on Bris Milah entiteled LBris Habate)would take issue with your assertian regarding Dr. Tendler.
CharlieHall, Where did you go?
charliehall, one is not required to be a talmid chochom nor a rabbi to understand that it is a strin at best to try and say that the mitzva of Hshovas Aveida require Government Helth care.
As to why No one replied to Dr. Tendler, well in many Halachic circles he is not taken seriously especially since he tried to abolish metzizah bpeh.
Also CharlieHall, I would appreciate if you would ddress the points I made about the need to enble responsible lawsuits to be brought.
First off charliehall. the Company may be real but have you ever tried getting the Car Insurance quote you recieved in the mail? The quote is not the same as the policy you recieve in actuality after giving them all the variables involved.
As to the fact that people going into medicine are doing it for the wrong reasons. What do I care? All I want is that the most talented and qualified physician possible is the one treating me when I need it. That is something that seldom happens in countries with government run health care.
As for the fact the same hospitals in Mexico are treating Mexicans andd Tourists. Yes it’s true but the dedication to the tourists and qulity of care they recieve is vstly different.
By the way regarding the original comment you made about Rbbi Tendler’s view of the obligtion for government run health care. On a different thread you already posted the entire lecture and I gave a point by point rebuttal to the entire thing you hve yet to respond.
I would also appreciate if you would explin if there exists such a chiyuv perhaps you would explin why when the Jewish Ntion was under there own sovergeinty a period of well over a thousand yers and expieriencing incredible wealth (at times) there was no such system put in place.
Regarding the issue of malpraactice read my post again, I clearly stated that they have to be controlled however in countries which have socilized medicine so in effect the Doctors are government employees they are not just controlled bu effectivley eliminated (as you rightly stated)leading to the vast amount of under qualified Doctors that exist in those countries.
Charliehall I have verified the fact that yes the OBGYN’s were telling me the truth.
As for the matter of specialties the reason why so many Doctors go into specialties is because it is much more lucrative (as it should be due to the more intense schooling)
It’sinteresting to note that you completley sidestepped the point I wrote about Mexico that being the medical treatment that tourists recieve there is by and large not availible for the general population, if you want to read over my point in greater detail you are welcometo go back and read my original post.
CharlieHall the number quoted by me was the actual number told to me by OBGYn, I would assume one of the differences is there practices (as in most cases) had multiple physicians resulting in increased patient capacity and increased risk btring up the cost.
In addition even if the number you quoted would be correct add rent, workplace insurance, cost of a secratary, physician assistant, and taxes and you can easily see why health care is so expensive.
As to Medical Care, the care that those in Texas recieve in Mexico is unavailible to the vast majority of Mexico citizens they are private not public doctors(this might be one of the reasons why the Mexican population is gradually relocating to the U.S)
As to malpractice why should it be impossible to sue a doctor? If one cannot sue there is nothing to weed out bad Doctors from the system, which is precisley the problem in Canada and other country’s with socilized medicine the amount of “bad doctors” is staggering.
Of course if the Government pays the bills since they write the laws as well they will limit lawsuits (again one of the problems with socilized medicine)
What does make sense is that lawsuits should be capped and there should be protections in place for honest to goodness mistakes that occurred through no fault of the Doctor.