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I find the concept of pre-marital therepy funny.
Those giving these “sessions generally have been trained by a system whose “products” have a divorce rate of roughly 50% and that is even taking into consideration that a good portion of secularists never get married.
Now I would want someone trained by them to instruct me (now my kids B”h) on how to be married?
Thats like turning to someone who has bankrupted every buisness that he has ever run for advice in how to run a buisness.
You want to know what the results of those who teach “marriage counseling” is take a look at the Divorce rate in secular society.
For me to listen to you you actually have to have shown you know what you are doing.
My father was one of EDITED siblings and his parents literally did not have food to eat, my father grew up with a level of poverty that his sister once told me “you cannot understand”.
His father was the youngest of a family that had a number of children that was closer to twenty then 10 and that was in Europe.
Unfortunately the mindset that you espouse is one that is a product of “Kochi Voitzem Yudi”.
The facts are that there is an inyan of “Berev al tainach yudecha” one must always endeavor to have children and more children.
As for mosdos going bankrupt.
The Gemaro tells us that schar talmud Torah is not part of the cheshbon, its on Hashem. (Mesechta Beitzah)
Either we trust Chazal or we do not.
Furthermore I personally spoke at length with a prominent Rov who discused these issues on a practical level with Rav Moshe zt’l and Rav Yackov zt”l. He told me very clearly that he had never ever heard of a heter for not having children becuase of financial issues.
He told me he guesses he is “old school” but the generations after the War understood that we have to do ours and Hashem will do his. He related to me that a prominent RY (who escaped the full brunt of the war in Shanghai) who was extremley poor and yet had a number of children in succession reacted to the questions of certain more modern people by exclaimg in shiur once “We live in a crazy world, each child is a world unto itself”. (This Rov had been in the shiur at the time)
The position that you are espousing is hopefully unpopular as it is in direct opposition to the “Ruach HaTorah”
Zahavasdad,
You are really really wrong about who the Rabbonim have spoken with.
I personally have a website and am an “ebayer”. Yes I make money off the internet. I also am very close to a prominent Rov who speaks with people about the internet.
This Rov has repeatedly made clear that he was never on the internet in his life and therefore has had to speak with others about it.
One time he questioned me quite extensivley about Facebook what it is, why it is important for buissness, and how buisness use it.
Another Rov who is quite proactive with his kehilla about the internet has spoken not just with me (briefly) but with other members of his shul about the internet so he has a firm handle on what is needed for buisness and what is not.
In fact this Rov has actually put considerable amount of time into studying hichos shabbos in regards to ebay,amazon, online madvertisments ect.. so he can ansewer shailos on it.
If you think the Rabbonim are naive about the “net” well in Rabbi Reismans words “you are naive”.
Oh and what first alerted the Rabbonim to the many issues is when there was a meeting several years back between various prominent Rabbonim and after comparing notes between themselves they realized the extent of the problems they were facing.
And yes it would have been much easier for them to not attmept to do something about it but since these Rabbonim have a sense of responsibilty and have shouldered the achrayos of transfering Yiddishkeit to the next dor they have spent years battiling the damage being done.
And if you think the library compares to the internet then you obviously have no idea what the YH is, how the YH works, nor how to battle it.
Fortunatley if you really do want to learn about Kochas HaNefesh and what the YHis you can purchase a copy of Mesillas Yeshorim and study it.
yitzyshalom: Yes really, You can check it up in Shemonah Perakim its pretty clear (Sorry but I don’t have the patience to start qouting it here)
yitzyshalom
The Rambam that you are talking about is in “Shmoneh Prakim. And in actuality the third “Kat” (in English group) are those that realize that Chazal’s knowledge of science was far more then what was known to scientists in their days as is obvious from mush of the Talmud and as such they realize that if Chazal wrote something that from a scientific perspective is inaccurate then it must be they had a deeper intent.
The group of fools in the Rambam’s words are those who think Chazal only knew what was known in their days.
I know everyone loves claiming the Rambam held differently but what I just wrote is what the Rambam states quite clearly in Shemonah Prakim.
What you qouted from Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz is a tekoff of the Ramchal in Mamar Aggods where the Ramchal states that Chazal often employed the science of their day as “allegories” to write things they wanted to be written down so people who knew how to understand it would and would be able to learn it but those it was not meant for would have no idea what Chazal meant.
To minimize someone else’s suffering is a wrong. Plain and simple.
The Job of one who is being “mavaler choleh” or providing a listeneing ear is to be “noiseh B’ol” to feel the other persons pain as if it was their own.
However what the person who is suffering on their own should think is another matter.
Some time ago I came down with a extremly rare sickness, I was rushed into one of the top Manhattan Hospitals. The Doctors (some of which were specialists called in by a Chareidi Askan specifically to deal with my case) were to put it in thier own words, extremly pessimistic about my prospects for a complete recovery.
The morning after I was admitted a Doctor was doing a minor procedure on my neck. He was able to see what was pretty obvious at the time.
I was really, really scared.
So the Dr. seeking to reassure me said “Don’t worry, you have the right to be scared anybody in youre situation would be scared”.
I might’ve been scared but B”H I still had my wits about me and I replied “I may have the right to be scared but it sure won’t help me”.
For the rest of the procedure the Dr. did not say a word.
My point is that yes, one may feel they have the “right” to be scared or to be negativley affected by something that goes badly for them or is done badly to them.
But know this.
You do not gain by allowing things to affect you badly.
You do gain from viewing each and everything that happens to you as a nisoyon, a test, a challenge to conquer.
If you do that, then each and every challenge that comes your way will only cause you to grow.
Because to meet a challenge you must grow. The harder the challenge the more growth that is required of you.
I spent several weeks in the Hospital and then as part of my treatment a phsycologist met with me to ensure that I was dealing with things properly.
He was a non-jew and he remarked how I must wish that I was never in the Hospital.
I replied that he was dead wrong. I hope and pray that no one is ever in the situation that I was in or has the side affects that I have.
However I would not trade my experiences for the world. My illness forced me to grow, to learn, to view, and experience things in ways I never could have before I was admitted to the hospitol with what was literally my life on the line.
I was sick, but in my recuperation I expierienced open nissim on a magnitude that caused a conservative Doctor to state theat it was clear to all that my recovery was an open miracle.
I grew in emunah, I grew in emunas chachomim (Gedolei Yisroel told my family in the begining not to listen to the DR’s I would recover), I learnt the meaning of Chesed, I saw firsthand how to really care for another. And I met amazing people.
One can chose to suffer but it’s never worth it, Instead you can use youre suffering to grow and to live. To really live.
I am only sharing this because when I began to turn the corner and was able to visit others my Rov ( My Rov and Rabbeim called almost every day to see how I was doing)told me that now I have to be michazek others.
Whats the big Deal?
It’s pretty sad that the secular and certain parts of the religous world have basically become captive to a feminist ideology.
Nevermind the facts on the ground that feminism has basically destroyed the family unit as well as led to the unfortunate situation where women now demonstrate their right to show no self-respec to themselves.
One of the core tragedies of feminism is that it seems to feel that men are better then women and had more fulfilling lives then women and thierfore it is a “womens right” to be the same as a man.
Judaisim teaches that men and women are not just physically different rather they are intrinsically different and each play seperate and distinct roles that together complete the picture.
As such the male brain is wired for the male purpose in life, to enable the male to accomplish the male purpose of life.
The female brain is different as it is wired to enable the female to accomplish the female purpose in life.
Hence men think logically as they are required to learn and fill other logical roles while women hink emotionally as the amazing womanly ability to think emotianally enables her to feel the needs of her family in a way that logic alone cannot.
Hence an iq test has absolutley no real bearing on matters at all.
I think Shira wrote what seems to be one of the most honest and “well meaning” posts I have read about what the Rabbonim are saying about the internet.
All those nutty right wing tea partiers who were screaming about liberty and how the government is slowly trying to control our lives, they were just plain nutty were’nt they?
Goint through Chumash one clearly sees that the timeline provides for an age range qell below that which Peres said.
Furthermore the only subject of debate is before the creation of Man i.e the six days of Creation how long were they. To state that Man was involved in breeding cattle over 10,000 years ago is to state that man was created over 6,000 years ago which is Kefira as it requires denying “ois achas” one letter (in this case the entirety)of the Torah Shbikasav and this is according to virtually everyone.
Most fairytales and bedtime stories that used to be told to children are very very scary.
Dr. Bruno Bettelheim (one of the most famous child phsycologists of his day) actually has an entire book studying this phenomenon and points to their unquestionable effectiveness at giving over certain moral values.
And those who say that teaching such stories are “ineffective”.
Such stories used to be standard fare in teaching yes the positive was taught the “schar” but also the “oinesh” the punishment.
Nowadays many feel only the positive should be taught not the consequences at all.
Another thing nowadays is that we complain about childrens sense of entitlement, lack of reponsibility and lack of derech eretz and failure to “grow up” and machure.
Seems to me the old way of chinuch did work.
zahavasdad
You quite obviously are completley unaware of most Hashkofa seforim ever heard of “why we say V’Hu Rachum with a special tune on Motzei Shabbos?
Tosfos say because Reshoim burn the whole week long, on Shabbos they are taken out to “rest” we try to extend shabbos a drop to “extend” their time out of the fire’s of Gehenom.
The Chassidishe Gatesheader
On the one hand people are provideing the actual sources in Chazal which state clearly that Davids view is contrary to Chazals.
However you post that you agree with David.
In other words you disagree with Chazal.
I would also add that it is unfortunate that you have so little self control over yourself that you have an inability to install a filter on your computer.
B”H though Bnei Yisroel is capable of big things and even when it takes gut wrenching honesty and an realization of how many things that we hae made “normal” (Seeing sights which are in the category of Yeharig V’al Ya’avor”) only once in a while. We are capable of saying enough is enough and taking away the Y”h attempts to ensnare us.
I speak of course to the majority.
The minority amongst us are unfortunatley already so desensitized that they view the “once in a while” viewing of pritzus merely a fact of life nu nu.
B”h for most of us it is not nu nu.
We B’H have enough self control to disallow it.
David Bar-Magen
It’s unfortunate that you seem to feel that you know the “Kochas HaNefesh” better then Chazal.
The Gemara in Bava Basra states quite clearly that if one choose to walk in a place of immodesty even thought there is an alternative path then one is considered a “Rosha” even if that person closes their eyes and does not look at the immodest sights.
This Gemora was quoted by Rav Don SEgal shlita at the Asifa.
Now of course there are those here and there stating “they disagree with the Gedolei Poskim.
However I have yet to see anyone able to dispute the sources and reasoning behind their Psokim.
I have seen a lot Of “I feels” and “my feelings” and other such things.
However for the intellectually honest people amongst us it seems pretty clear what the Gedolim are saying.
Disclaimer Teh words of the Gedolei Yisroel do not need my haskomoh and I am not trying to justify them.
Actually Rav Shumel Wosner one of the senior Poskim of this generation and an acknowledged Adom Gadol stated that unfiltered internet is an “issur torah” he gave sources for his ruling.
It is quite understandable how an “issur torah” is binfing on all of Klal Yisroel.
Rav Don Segal (also an acknowledged Adom Godol) repeatedly metioned the Gemorah of “Darkei Achrinah” which states that if one passes by a place where there is pritus even if they close their eyes they are called a “rosha”> this is an open Gemorah in Bava Basra.
As what was being given over was the rulings of Gedolei HaDor who actually were not even asking people to just accept their “psak rather they took the time to explain some of the sources for their Psak Halocha I think that Rav Ephraim Wachsmans words that these rulings are “binding” on all of Klal Yisroel are actually quite obvious.
Pcoz
Don’t worry you are’nt being “puritanical”
A kuntrus containing a small amount of Rav Shlomo Wolbe’s letters was published in ny his Shloshim, in this Kuntrus Rav Wolbe zt”l has a lengthy letter in which he explains in detail that phsycology is the cause of Kefira in Bechira. Rav Wolbe zt”l goes so far as to state that battiling phsycology is actually the “milchomo” of our generation.
Interestingly Dr. Sam Harris a prominent neurologist recently published a Book attacking the notion of Free Will an he makes the point that most of his conclusions are simply taking much of the underpinnings of phsycological thought to thier logical conclusions.
Health,
Actually you are mistaken without a Belief in G-d all morals are unable to be proven incumbant on the individual.
This point was made briefly by RSRH in the very begininng of The Nineteen Letters and is actually agreed upon by most honest non-jewish philosophers.
However their arguement is that on a communal level there is a need for morals.
However even they agree that it is only morals that are needed for the smooth funcioning of society that can be forced and even they must be agreed upon and are not “absolute”.
The crux of the reason why the Founding Fathers of the USA made the point repeatidly that life and liberty are derived from G-d and are not products of humans is becuase that makes those rights “absolute” instead of reletive.
rabbiofberlin
Peyilim was started by Rabbi Chaim Exzra Barzel and Rav Sholom Shwadron a”h to spearhead the efforts to save Yemenite Jews from the Maaborot.
No I was not there however several family memeber were part of the original members.
As for specific examoples?
How about not allowing Parents jobs if they did not agree to send their children to secular schools?
How about forcibly cutting off peyos from children and explaining to them “torah only has to be kept in Chutz Laaretz?
These were commonplace in the Mabbarot.
Yisroel Voraisa V’kudesha Berich Hu Chad Hu.
Rav Chaim Volozhiner also explains in Shar Daled that learning lishma means learning “for the Torahs sake” Lshem HaTorah and is automatic Dveikus since the Torah is the words of Hashem.
rabbiofberlin
Actually the Gedolim that reestablished Torah after the War fought both in isrealand in CHUl.
The abuse Rabi Aron Kotler, the Satmer Rebbe and other Gedolei Yisroel underwent in Chutz L’aretz is qiuite well documented.
As for what was done in Eretz Yisroel only being possible because it was done under “JEwish” rule.
You are 100% correct Post WW2 the only “democracy” to carry out an intentinal campaign to purposely force Yidden to shmad was the ISreali Government with the despicable Maaborot.
Peyilim was started to fight the ISreali Government because in Isreal because no such campaign was needed outside of Isreal.
As for the ISreali Government funding Kollelim at a level that is not done outside of Isreal.
That happens to be patently unture US Kollel students recieve a comparable level of funding to Isreali Kollel students because of all the programs as well as the addition of a degree since Talmudical Studies is recognized as a legitimate form of study in the US (I Know since I lived in both places).
In Europe social services are actually provided to all.
Regardless of whether or not Iagree with these policies the facts are the funding the ISreali Government provides Kolleim in Isreal is in real dollars not that much different the in the US.
Naftush
Yes technically it was Kastner was not the defendent, so what? Historically it is still called the “Kastner Trial”.
Secondly, What leap of faith are you talking about?
Mr Hecht makes very little of an arguement of his own the bulk of his book is simply a recording of an actual trial (a very famous trial at the time) that took place.
Mr. Hecht is simply laying out the facts that were virtually proven at the trial,(Yes they were not able to be totally proven since Kastner was suspiciously killed) that Kastner was basically a collaberator for 90% of the time with the Nazis YM”s and he did his work with the implicit knowledge and actual instructions of many of the lading lights of the secular Zionist movement at the time.
And it is quite well known to any objective historian that aside from Jabotinsky and his group the vast majority of real efforts to save Yidden during the Holocaust was made by Frum Yidden led by the Gedolim.
The secular Zionist leadership was at the best complacent and at the worst activley worked to thwart many Hatzolah plans.
This is proven in the transcripts of the trial as recorded by the secular jewish zionist Ben Hecht and there is no real ansewer to it other then to ban his book.
Far East,
Yopu happen to be making a common error.
The American Revolution was a repudiation of the “divine right to rule” in Europe the commonly held notion was that G-d gave rulers their power and the “common folks” rights wer then granted to them by the rulers.
The Founding Fathers repudiated that by stateing clearly in the Declaration of Indepence that each person is entitled to Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as granted to them by G-d.
By stating that basic human rights were granted by G-d and not by human they were stating impliclty that these rights cannot be infringed upon by humans.
The entire foundation of the philosophy espoused by the Founding Fathers was in “founding” this country is that we are under “g-d” rule.
It is this beleif system that allowed the founding of this country and it is this that allows us to freely practice our religion.
rabbiofberlin
To state that the Isreali Government is “reponsible for the Torah Learning in Isreal today is patently ridiculous to anyone with a modicum of Knowledge of Isreali history.
Anyone who knows anything about Isreali history is aware that the Zionist Government acted with “mesiras nefesh” to do all in their power to uproot any form of Torah from Judaisim whenever they had a chance.
Ever heard what happened in the Mabbarot?
It is only because Gedolei Yisroel stood in the breach and fought with all their might to establis Yeshivos throughout the land that Torah flourishes in Isreal today.
If however you wish to state that the IGovernment has some zchs in the Torah Learning today. On that most of the Gedolim will agree with you wholeheartdly.
However the meforshim state that if the Umos HaOlam would only have realized the tremendous benefits they recieved from the Korbonos brought on their behalf in the Beis Hamikdosh on Succos they would never have destoyed it, rather they would have run to support it.
Lets hope the Isreali government, which currently faces existential threats that have nothing to do with “manpower”, realizes that now if anything is the time to urge for Teshuva and not destroy the zchusim they have.
Naftush
Kastner was put on trial in Isreal and the resulting trial proved his and the Zionist Regime’s role in convincing Hungarians that there was nothing to be afraid of from the Nazi’s ym”s.
This trial was transcribed and Documented in the book “Perfidy” by Ben Hecht ( a secular Jew.
For a time the Zionist establishment banned this book in Isreal. I don’t lnow if it is still banned but it is definitley availible overseas.
Read it, it simply documents the actual “Kastner Trial”.
mdd
Well, the Jews have been ignoring the
majority” in every culture theyve been in since going into Golus.
I mean those who remained “jews” that is.
Fact is that the real reason that seculars are pressuring “chareidim” to join the army is becuase they thought that they could “get” them without it.
Now they see that as long as the “chareidim” stay in the Yeshivos without joing the “melting pot” of Isreali society which is the Army the chareidim remain “A Nation Apart”.
Now the fact that the chareidim were ” a nation apart” did not truly bother the seculars till recent years when the utter destruction of the entirety of secular society has become fighteningly apparent while chareidi society continues to grow kein yirbu.
As such this is no longer tolerable and chareidi parents must be pressured to allow their children to join with the reset of Israeli culture and follow them to the drug dens of India and Thailand afterwards so at least everyone will fail equally.
Come on mdd, You cant come up with anything better then that?
It is quite ludicros that this is being called a “Civil Rights” issue.
It’s a definition issue.
Since the founding of this country the definition of Marriage has been the matrimony of man and wife.
No one that I have heard or read about is advocating that it be deemed illegal for one to do in the privacy of their own home what they want.
However since it has always been recognized that “marriage” is only applicable to a male/female relationship it has always been recognized that one who prefers a different type of relationship cannot be “married” just as a chair cannot be called a table because a chair is a chair and a table is a table.
A marriage is the matrimony of man to woman.
It is not discrimination to say homosexuals cannot be married it is simply the facts the term “marriage” does not, and has never been used to describe their relationship as such it is impossible to call them married.
Now some people are saying that we must “redefine” marriage.
That means take the term marriage and change it’s accepted definition.
I personally do not feel it within my power to change the definition of a word.
First off last I check in virtually every War that Isreal has won all admitted that it was not the result of “military superiority” rather it was a “miracle” (Moshe Dayans visit to the Kosel after the Six Day war used to be taught in Israeli schools) the zhus of Torah learning is what many Gedolei Yisroel say is what allows such miracles to take place.
Also I find it interesting that rate of “Draft Dodging” by the secular liberal elite in Isreal causes statistaclly more secular youth not to serve then yeshiva bochrim.
Why is there not a call to eliminate such draaft dodging by the teens of Tel Aviv?
And yes the Army lately has gone out of there way to show the Chareidi public that they have nothing to fear from allowing their sons into the Army.
I mean if any chareidi does not wish to be compelled to listen to Kol Isha for example his commander will happily comply.
Another quite scary article is the paer delivered by GB. Melton in 2004 to the International Society for Prevention of Child Abuse and Neglect.
The paper is replet with footnotes documenting everything and Melton skeweres Mandated Reporting Laws as having been well intended from the outset but now being a Policy without Reason.
And MElton repeatedly makes the point the unintended consequences of Mandated Reporting Laws have caused more damage to the children it is supposed to protect then good.
Interestingly Melton makes the point that while The orginal Mandated Reporting Laws were enacted to prevent “battery” the overwhlming amount of abuse that occurs is “neglect”.
Another point made by Melton is that two thirds of all “mandated reporting” cases are unable to be substantiated!
Here is but one paragraph from Meltons report.
“For now, though, it is important to recognize that experience has shown that the assumptions that
guided the enactment of mandated reporting laws were largely erroneous. To be clear, my intention
in drawing attention to these mistakes is not to criticize Kempe or any of the other pioneers in child
protection. Indeed, they are justly venerated for drawing public attention to an important social problem.
It is not reasonable to expect that any of the early advocates on behalf of maltreated children should
have known what professionals have learned from decades of research and clinical experience. Today,
however, leaders in child protection should know better. Nonetheless, in the United States and numerous
other jurisdictions that have copied the US model, policymakers maintain a child protection system that
is now known to lack a grounding in valid empirical assumptions and indeed to have terrible unintended
effects”.
As for saying that only 5% of cases where children bring accustaions are false.
That is simply intrue.
All studies done make clear that in only 5% of cases are children found to be intentionally lying.
That is true, however in a very high percentage of cases that children are found to have been questioned wrong, manipulated or simply misunderstood.
So much so that real studies showing all the numbers have shown that 81% of child abuse accusations cannot be substantiated.
I qoute from familyrights.us
“81%, or 4 out of 5, of all child abuse reports are known to be false. Less than 1 in 5 reports of child abuse are “substantiated” as being true by an administrative decision or court action. There are serious doubts about the validity of a large number of the administrative findings of child abuse and neglect. These doubts center upon the dubious quality of the investigative work undertaken by CPS investigators. There are relatively few figures available regarding the number of “substantiated” findings that are overturned following either administrative or judicial review.
We do not have an epidemic of child abuse in the United States, but we do have an epidemic of false reporting that is harmful to families who are needlessly exposed to the universally inadequate and incompetent efforts of the CPS agencies throughout the country”.
Scary isn’t it?
It’s funny how people are accusing the Rabbonim shlita of somehow not caring enough about children or not being “smart” enough to properly deal with Child Abuse.
You see I think it’s just the opposite. The Gedolei Yisroel who quite literally are makriv themselves to the tzibur and spend day and night helping both individuals and groups of people who they do not even know, care to much.
They care so much about people that they are willing to listen to people trying to convince them to do things that have already proven to be dangerous and literally have destroyed communities.
In all aries’s posts she has neglected to give any real sources or real data.
I won’t.
You see the current “hysteria” over child abuse is not new to the worl.
It is new to the Frum world.
In the wider world it occurred in the late 1980’s its known as the “day care sex abuse hysteria” sound familiar?
Try ggogling it.
Try googling the McMartin Pre school case,
The Kern County Pre-school case.
The Little Rascals Pre School Case.
The Dale Aikiki case.
And countless more.
Virtually all were cases where families were destroyed, innocent people were sent to jail upon the testimony of children with no physical evidence. Convictions were later overturned, but the damage was done.
There are countless more cases you can look them up.
Aries,
Please don’t make as if you care what Rav Elyashiv says.
THe reality is that if he agrees with you, then you’l qoute hom and if he doesn’t. Well you ust have to fight to show him the truth ch”v.
You insist on pushing an agenda that destroys families and children. You insist on ignoring the abundance of evidence that shows how dangerous your positions are.
You also insist on misqouting the Godol Hador when the Rov that Teshuva is written to is alive and well and has told every single person who ever asked that you are wrong.
I don’t mean to give a final psak, however Yichud with a sister is permitted on a temporary basis, it is forbidden on a permanent basis.
What is the cutoff point is subject to dispute. There are those who hold it is thirty days, Reb Moshe zt’l disagrees and holds it is for an extended period of time, even if it is less then thirty days.
As for the fact they are in different rooms, the consesus of poskim seem to hold that as long as there are shared facilities, for example a bathroom it would be prohibited since they must leave their rooms.
However if each room had their own bathroom and the doors were locked then depending on other factors there would possibly be room to be leniant.
As was already noted the above is strictly for informative purposes and for an actual psak please consult a competent Rov who is knowledgeable in these Halachos.
Does Obama really think that everyone forgot that the Dems had supermajorities in both houses for most of his presidency?
aries2756
What happened with Leiby is a terrible tragedy. It is a tragedy that shook the foundations of Klal Yisroel.
It is a tragedy that shook our belief in ourselves and caused a massive degree of introspection.
The fact that the Killer was no longer religous is of little comfort.
He went to Yeshivos, he grew up amongstus.
Such s thing has never ever occurred and should never occur and when if it does then yes all of us must look deep inside and ask what went wrong with our chinuch system that such atragedy can happen.
However it boggles the mind that there are those who wish to use this tragedy to further their own ends.
We are told “go to the police they are the pro’s Beis Din does not know how to investigate these things”.
Well now the pro’s have said that all evidence shows there was no molestation and the confession was more or less accurate not completley, but more or less.
Yet some people continue to cling to the their agenda.
With all due respect, I beleive that is dangerous.
It is very easy to say that we have to learn from this the ABC’s or to protect our children.
All that does is exempt us completley.
Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky shlita is in his eighties and is reported to have said that he lived through a lot but never saw something like this happen.
Rav Elyashiv and Rav Chaim Kanievsky two of the Gedolei HaDor refused to ansewer why such a thing happened.
We are left with one thing only.
It happened.
It happened amongst us.
We must all take reponsibilty.
W emust all look inside of each of ourselves and ask “where was their room for such unprecedented evil to come from within our midst?
Where did our chinuch sytem change?
Where did our culture change.
We must ask these questions, we dare not take the easy way out and we must say “Never Again” will such a thing happen amongst us.
By the way, For those who have both the time and ability as well as the courage to do so I would suggest that a counter movement be started by those concerned with truly protecting our children.
The orginazation would be dedicated towards fighting anyone who suggests instituting Mandatory Reporting Laws in our communites.
Our Families, children, and communities are to precious to be used as the sacrificial lambs in someone elses experiments that have already been proven to be a horrific failure.
However to start such an orginazation would require real courage as the person would most definetley be attacked for being “backwards” “intolerant” “uncaring” and attempting a “coverup”.
Never mind if it is Parents and Grandparents, Rabbeim and Teachers (who really and truly teach not the ones who just give speeches sort of like the difference between Economic Proffessors and real world Buisnessmen).
Still I am sure they would be accused.
What is ironic is that it is really the accussers who are going backwards in time.
Using Statistics that have been proven False.
Using assumptions that have been Proven untrue.
Using Methods that have already failed and caused destruction.
Oh and you wanna know another interesting tidbit?
You know Joe Manchin the Democratic Senator from West Virginia?
Well he used to be the Governor of West Virgina and when he was Governor for some reason he saw the need to sign a bill criminizing any false accusation of child abuse that is leveled and giveing the accused the right to sue even if no charges were ultimatley brought!
Interesting is’nt it?
So I admit that yes it would be a difficult task to start such an orginization.
But I for one would be eternally grateful to the people who have such courage, for it is the lives of my young children they would be attempting to protect.
As for a Rabbi trained in “collecting evidence”
I forgot what does that have to do with the issue at hand?
Real Statistics have shown Mandating Reporting Laws to be an utter failure and to possibly cause even more Damage then real Abuse.
As such, I along with many other level headed individuals have argued that it is foolishness to introduce things that have already failed and had an untold number of horrific “unintended consequences” into our communities.
What exactly does that have to do with your question?
As for your claim that there are members of the RCA as knowledgeable as Rav Elyashiv.
I doubt that there is a single member of the RCA who would even think about making such a claim.
It is ludicrous to even suggest it and basically shows that the claimint has very little understanding of Halachic Issues
Charliehall:
You seem to be a big fan of Liberal Media Outlets.
Well check our Mondays Edition of the NYT theres a Letter to the editor from a Proffessor of Theology who states that the main cause of the problems in the Catholic church is a result of the policy of celibacy. He also mentions that this explains why there has not been any such widespread problems found in the clergy of other religions.
I’m not endorsing the letter nor stating I agree with it, just thought I would bring it to your attention.
I wonder if what we should learn from the Cathlic Church is not to promote Celibacy.
Oh, I forgot we already discourage it.
And of course in each and every instance where teenagers have gone OTD or done other terrible things it is because of “Child Molestation”.
Is’nt it funny that some 15 years ago there was a groundbreaking JO about OTD.
Many Gedolim warned against it, saying it would legitimize behaviour and make a bad problem wors.
Lo and Behold, A bad problem become wors.
But wait.
THe cause has finally been discovered.
It wasn’t because Gedolim had been ignored. No Ch”V.
It is because of the Hithero unknown scourge of Child Molestation.
Introduce Mandated Reporting and the problem will dissapear!
Let me be the first to inform you that once again it would be wise to listen to the Gedolim who are once again screaming.
You are playing with Fire!
You are playing with the neshomas of yiddishe kinder!
You will make a bad problem worse.
But don’t worry then you will have the next newfound issue to deal with and the destruction left in the wake of these policies will be nothing more then unintended consequences.
Oh and those famillies destroyed?
The kids that will never have shidduchim? The hundreds of talented individuals that couldv’e become Rabbeim but refuse to risk their families?
The dozens of kids that will be abuse by a real abuser r”l that could not be stopped because of a public weary of false claims? The yeshivos destroyed because of a few individuals?
The children from broken homes or “latch key” kids, the shy kids that could have been helped if a Rebbi would have just summoned the courage to give the kid a hug?
Don’t worry you will not have to ansewer for those kids those hundreds and thousands of kids, ’cause after all they will be the unfortunate unintended consequences.
Aries2756
Hate to break it to you but each and every single credible report show that your assertion that 96% of allegations are accurate is 100% false.
As I have outed from research papers and another paper has shown from the WSJ. This in fact is a thought process that was proven wrong and deadly wrong over 20 years ago.
Why do you insist on qouting demonstably wrong statistics? Why cant you attempt to find some real ones? Why cant you do as others have done and bing real numbers?
And how can you state that in the frum world children have absolutley no knowledge of these issues when those in your camo advocate teaching these issues to children at an extremley young age?
And how can you reasonably claim to care about the welfare of children when each and every one of the policies you want put in place in the ewish Chinuch system has already been tried in numerous places to disastorous effect?
Aries.
You stated that a potch is different.
You also mention having gone to Albany.
I wonder are you part of the Board of Jewish Advocates for children that testified in Albany?
I wonder because you see in their submitted testimony they went to great lenths to try to convince Albany that they must strenously enforce the No Hitting Laws in all schools including Private schools. Since in many schools this rule is violated and children are subected to “child abuse”.
How do I know this?
Because I read that Testimony all of it.
I also showed it to Rabboim who were utterly shocked, it seems that they had not been told of these views nor did they think that there would be “frum” yidden who would go to secular authorities to attempt to force their way of chinuch upon others and call them “child abusers” in the process.
Health;
I do not quite understand your question.
1) Halacha is Halacha, I cannot change it.
2) Regarding Tikkun Olam: numerous studies continue to show the horrific results of these ill concieved laws which to paraphrase one researcher may very well have resulted in the cure being worse then the crime. Families, children, and whole communities have been destroyed. Numerous effective methods of chinuch and child raising that saved untold numbers of children from the scourge of child neglect (according to the statistics there are roughly 6 cases of neglect for every 1 case of molestation) have been thrown aside whith terrible consequences.
3) There is no place where there was a problem that Mandated Reporting laws were implemented and resulted in helping the situation get better. Rather in every case where Mandated Reporting Laws were implemented the situation has gotten worse.
4)To protect against Child Molestation the accusation of Child Molestation must be taken seriously to avoid a “boy who cries wolf” situation. Yet Mandatory Reporting laws have caused this “claim” to be considered one of the most belittled out there and in the words of researchers given rise to an “epidemic” of false claims.
5) As the father of young children I view it as my responsibilty to protect them and as a result when this debate first started spent untold hours researchig this issue (as can be seen from the numerous actual real statistics I am able to provide) and as a result try to “raise the alarm” that we stand at the precipice of implementing Failed ideas and destroying our children in the process.
So far no one has been able to refute anything I have been saying. I am still waiting to see someone take up the challenge.
By the way what chein has said posted is easy to understand for those who have real emunah.
We ultimatley are not G-d and therefore cannot really punish appropriatley, rather we must follow the Torah’s guidance.]
If we cause harm to an innocent individual no matter how worthy our intentions, we will have to pay for the damage inflicted.
On the other hand if a guilty person walks free because we are following Hashems rules then ultimatley it is Hashem the Father of all of us who is responsible and will ensure that the proper things take place.
See Meseches Makkos about one who kills B’shogeig for further elaboration
I would venture to say that there is not a single member of the RCA that is even in the same Ballpark of Halachic Knowledge as Rav Elyashiv shlita nor of any other Gedolei Poskim.
I would add that when one realizes that Yes, there are real abusers out there and they must be stopped, one truly shudders at the dangers of cetain attitudes.
An essential part of stopping an abuser is the need that such accusations be taken seriously by all. Yet many have succeaded in turning this issue into a oke.
Every time another innocent person is accused, every time another baseless accusation is leveled a littl more credibilty is lost from the charge of “child molestation”. The end result is the same as in the Boy who Cried Wolf. When a real danger happens it may unfortunatley be ignored.
That is scary.
First of I have no idea how one would infer from what I wrote that I am stating that there are no cases of abuse in the Jewish Community, considering the Rambam himself wrote in Mishne Torah that each and every generation has their share of “prutzim b’arayos” it would be foolhardy of me to make such an assertion.
Farrockaway, You must not have read my post I was qouting the statistics as well as consesus on child testimony. Chein brought from the WSJ. How you continue to state something which was proven to be wrong as well as dangerous over 20 years ago is beyond me.
Again research continues to prove that Mandated Reporting Laws do nothing to protect children and are more likely to be detrimental to the saaftey of children then helpful.
aries;
The one statistic you attemtpted to qoute was shown to be twisted and flat our untrue.
multiple posters have pointed out real factual problems with your approach.
Why is it that you refuse to ansewer them?
Yes I know you will attack me.
Thats my point while I and other posters have brought up real substantive issues and shied away from attacking you have refused to follow suit.
I would think that the difference in approach says it all.